3.5 DM Vs. EVIL PCs

[jabberwocky9]

I'm running a campaign involving the undead apocalypse with evil players characters. I have a Dread Necromancer, Ninja, and Cleric in this group which I'm not used to having to guide evil characters and which I am not really fond of but I'm accommodating them. We have gone through a couple sessions and they're enjoying it but I'm afraid that it might get stale due to the type of characters they are, the type of campaign, and my discontent to running evil PCs. To make this short: PCs are currently 3rd lvl. Any advice to keeping the adventure lively even during death? How can I keep my feelings out of the player's enjoyment on running evil characters? Oh, these players are new to this version and only played very limited time, if any, of 2nd edition 10 years ago.

[Flickerdart]

Evil PCs have the advantage of being able to fight against Good enemies (who try to stop them cause they're evil) and Evil enemies (competing for turf/minions/sacrifices/recognition within an evil hierarchy). Plus, Evil has much stronger disagreements across the Law-Chaos spectrum. So they could be fighting angels one day, demons the other, and devils the next, and each would have their own troops, strategies, and goals.

[nedz]

There must be some Good Monsters or Races which you have always found annoying ? Make those the enemy.

[daremetoidareyo]

Make it really conflicting.

A fey stronghold that has access to a dimensional portal to a huge gold or diamond vein in the elemental plane of earth. That fey stronghold is under undead assault and they will eventually have to pull the portal apart in order to use the magic to defend themselves: maybe it's a cabal of dedicated dryad casters or something, and they use the portal back and forth for some weird fey reason, like as wine cellar or something. The PCs have to finesse the situation or miss a huge opportunity.

orrr

I'm just writing shtuff off the top of my head but maybe a BBEG or 3 is what you need.

This world is really close to the corpse of a dead god of order. The dead god once hated all life, looking at it as a complicated perversion of the universes natural order: to be at the universal heat death. The ripples of complexity that reproductive life makes in his greater order is like an annoying presence for this god with OCD; like life is wrinkle that needs to be ironed out. This god wants the universe to be perfectly uniform. Anyway, this goal breaks down the structure divinity, (no life, no belief, therefor no divine power) so a group of gods worked together to kill him. And dumped his body in the material plane as a big F.U.

A slightly insane chaotic good mystic theurge and his Neutral totemist warblade friend figures this out after a knockdown, drag out riddle contest with an aboleth. This would have been a neat bit of trivia if they didn't happen to also discover a cabal of super powerful modrons & their construct steeds who thoroughly womped this pair in battle. The modrons were a problem as they are moving around the world hiring dopplegangers and changelings to distract the major demihuman groups from the fact that they plan on resurrecting the god of order, as he is the only being that knows how to fix the 46th quadrant of mechanus.

After meditating on this for a while, the theurge decided on a plan: to render the entire world happily undead in order to make the world invisible to this dead god. He turned himself and his friend into liches and began the process of turning the entire world undead under the belief that a total lack of life will make the god of order not even notice this planet, because if the modrons succeed, this god will most definitely flatten all the life on this plane and nearby prime materials. The waves of undead that have sprouted up are ultimately these guys's fault.

This can go any direction: let the world die: fight the modrons, a race of creatures that are not in the PCs strong suit: join the good lich/warblade in the conversion process: fight the lich/warblade: Consult the aboleth about it all: maybe the cleric's evil god tells him exactly what do amongst those options. If the PCs are greedy, they need some sort of society in order to be rich. Evil PCs put every option on the table...which is why they are so fun.

[jabberwocky9]

Evil PCs have the advantage of being able to fight against Good enemies (who try to stop them cause they're evil) and Evil enemies (competing for turf/minions/sacrifices/recognition within an evil hierarchy). Plus, Evil has much stronger disagreements across the Law-Chaos spectrum. So they could be fighting angels one day, demons the other, and devils the next, and each would have their own troops, strategies, and goals.

Yes, but disadvantages because no one could truly trust them. I'm looking at this as a role playing POV.

[Flickerdart]

Yes, but disadvantages because no one could truly trust them. I'm looking at this as a role playing POV.
"Trust" and "convenient mutually beneficial partnership" accomplish the same things most of the time.

[sideswipe]

Yes, but disadvantages because no one could truly trust them. I'm looking at this as a role playing POV.

absolutely not true unless you are meta gaming or all NPC's are casting detect evil continuously.

being evil does not mean slaughtering the village or ripping people off. you can save a village and be evil about it. cleverly swindle them out of every penny to do so. then save them at great expense to them and leave them in a position that they probably could not defend themselves again. but they are still grateful. :smallsmile:

NPC's that are not paladins or uber paranoid "I DETECT EVIL ON ALL" will just take them at their word and their diplomacy check.

the second most evil character i ever played was in a good party, worked alongside a paladin (with a few scrolls of undetectable alignment) and was part of the national navy (i was also chaotic) by the party i was in and what i represented i should have been true neutral at the best, but i was chaotic evil. and i played it really well. picking my times to be evil and when i thought my life was getting too orderly i would cause some fun havoc enough to satisfy me.

being evil does not mean being a di*k openly, that's called being a socio-path.

[jabberwocky9]

Make it really conflicting.

A fey stronghold that has access to a dimensional portal to a huge gold or diamond vein in the elemental plane of earth. That fey stronghold is under undead assault and they will eventually have to pull the portal apart in order to use the magic to defend themselves: maybe it's a cabal of dedicated dryad casters or something, and they use the portal back and forth for some weird fey reason, like as wine cellar or something. The PCs have to finesse the situation or miss a huge opportunity.

orrr

I'm just writing shtuff off the top of my head but maybe a BBEG or 3 is what you need.

This world is really close to the corpse of a dead god of order. The dead god once hated all life, looking at it as a complicated perversion of the universes natural order: to be at the universal heat death. The ripples of complexity that reproductive life makes in his greater order is like an annoying presence for this god with OCD; like life is wrinkle that needs to be ironed out. This god wants the universe to be perfectly uniform. Anyway, this goal breaks down the structure divinity, (no life, no belief, therefor no divine power) so a group of gods worked together to kill him. And dumped his body in the material plane as a big F.U.

A slightly insane chaotic good mystic theurge and his Neutral totemist warblade friend figures this out after a knockdown, drag out riddle contest with an aboleth. This would have been a neat bit of trivia if they didn't happen to also discover a cabal of super powerful modrons & their construct steeds who thoroughly womped this pair in battle. The modrons were a problem as they are moving around the world hiring dopplegangers and changelings to distract the major demihuman groups from the fact that they plan on resurrecting the god of order, as he is the only being that knows how to fix the 46th quadrant of mechanus.

After meditating on this for a while, the theurge decided on a plan: to render the entire world happily undead in order to make the world invisible to this dead god. He turned himself and his friend into liches and began the process of turning the entire world undead under the belief that a total lack of life will make the god of order not even notice this planet, because if the modrons succeed, this god will most definitely flatten all the life on this plane and nearby prime materials. The waves of undead that have sprouted up are ultimately these guys's fault.

This can go any direction: let the world die: fight the modrons, a race of creatures that are not in the PCs strong suit: join the good lich/warblade in the conversion process: fight the lich/warblade: Consult the aboleth about it all: maybe the cleric's evil god tells him exactly what do amongst those options. If the PCs are greedy, they need some sort of society in order to be rich. Evil PCs put every option on the table...which is why they are so fun.

I get your point, I do have where eventually the world is in disarray and to each his own...but it's a possibility they can be heroes by the end of the campaign. I'm over thinking it because I've always had good over evil mentality. The NOOBS are enjoying the campaign and I'm enjoying that they are but don't want to fall into the pit of staleness and redundancy. Maybe you can give me a few tips for that not to happen.

[jabberwocky9]

absolutely not true unless you are meta gaming or all NPC's are casting detect evil continuously.

being evil does not mean slaughtering the village or ripping people off. you can save a village and be evil about it. cleverly swindle them out of every penny to do so. then save them at great expense to them and leave them in a position that they probably could not defend themselves again. but they are still grateful. :smallsmile:

NPC's that are not paladins or uber paranoid "I DETECT EVIL ON ALL" will just take them at their word and their diplomacy check.

the second most evil character i ever played was in a good party, worked alongside a paladin (with a few scrolls of undetectable alignment) and was part of the national navy (i was also chaotic) by the party i was in and what i represented i should have been true neutral at the best, but i was chaotic evil. and i played it really well. picking my times to be evil and when i thought my life was getting too orderly i would cause some fun havoc enough to satisfy me.

being evil does not mean being a di*k openly, that's called being a socio-path.

Isn't socio-path would be more considered chaotic-evil and what you describe your character as being lawful evil, just asking.

[jabberwocky9]

"Trust" and "convenient mutually beneficial partnership" accomplish the same things most of the time.

Funny right durr..."most of the time".

[sideswipe]

Isn't socio-path would be more considered chaotic-evil and what you describe your character as being lawful evil, just asking.

that was a single example. another example of someone who works in a good party, for good causes, and is still chaotic evil, belkar from the OOTS comics.

the way i played my warlock i can't really do justice without explaining the whole campaign. and im not going to.
socio-paths are a type of chaotic evil, just like being a jackass paladin is lawful good. there are many flavours to each alignment. and this is what makes it a good grey area rather than "there are 9 characters you can ever play".

like i said, you can do, what may be perceived as good deeds as an evil character, and still be pulling them off for only your own benefits and really not giving a damn about anybody else. it does not mean you shift alignment just because you helped someone.

in that way evil people can be heroes too. just have a very warped view. most heroes would be glad to help and the reward is an expected but still nice bonus.
an evil character would not care that they are helping and only see the ones they are as a form of temporary income. to be disposed of when you are done.
a neutral character would be more along the lines of "I'm happy to help for the right price, its a good thing to do but i have to make sure its worth it".

lawful and chaotic are completely different, yes i was in the navy, but this was only because the navy was recruiting pirates as "privateers" to do what they normally do, just with a navy twist. the crew took on the jobs and i just did crazy stuff for money. we all have to eat/buy wands of vigor.
how to help the commoner who has a cursed bow forcing him to kill all evil things against his will? kill him and take the bow :smallbiggrin: seaguls annoying you so you cannot sleep? eldrich blast until you are kicked out of the city.
pixie team mate has a cursed ring on his finger he cannot remove? chop his hand off whilst he is sleeping ..... that was my favourite. :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

Funny right durr..."most of the time".
The rest of the time is how you create opportunities for a fun plot.

[Snowbluff]

There must be some Good Monsters or Races which you have always found annoying ? Make those the enemy.

I suggest Kender.

[Flickerdart]

I suggest Kender.
"Warriors of evil embark on a campaign to wipe out the Kenders, encounter surprisingly little resistance from the forces of good."

[Snowbluff]

"Warriors of evil embark on a campaign to wipe out the Kenders, encounter surprisingly little resistance from the forces of good."

Well, there's your campaign. :smallbiggrin:

[Arbane]

"Warriors of evil embark on a campaign to wipe out the Kenders, encounter surprisingly little resistance from the forces of good."

Can I play a NE Druid who worships the God of Natural Selection?

[nedz]

I suggest Kender.

That's exactly what I was thinking of, ..., but some people dislike Elves, Dwarves or Gnomes maybe ?

[Killer Angel]

That's exactly what I was thinking of, ..., but some people dislike Elves, Dwarves or Gnomes maybe ?

surely yes, but "some" is different from "the great majority", so Kender is a good start.

[jabberwocky9]

NOOOOO...not KENDERS!!!!!!

[Hamste]

NOOOOO...not KENDERS!!!!!!

Take the Gully Dwarves instead! Seriously though, love both races even with how annoying they can be.

[atemu1234]

I know some people are going "Well, they don't have to be REALLY evil, just enough to ping on an alignment detection..." but I say that when PCs want evil characters, they don't want evil they want EVIL(TM).

[Ettina]

Isn't socio-path would be more considered chaotic-evil and what you describe your character as being lawful evil, just asking.

Lawful Evil is not 'clever evil', it's 'evil with rules'.

A Chaotic Evil character can be clever, and hide their evilness when it would be a disadvantage for them to openly show it. Meanwhile, you could easily have a Lawful Evil character be Lawful Stupid about their Evilness. All 'Lawful' means is that they follow some sort of rules. A Neutral (on Lawful/Chaotic axis) character follows the rules if the work and breaks them if they don't work, while a Chaotic character has difficulty following rules and only does so if they have to.

A Chaotic Evil character who's undercover could pull it off (if they have enough Bluff and so forth), but they'll chafe at the restrictions and probably jump at the chance to cause mischief without getting caught or jeopardizing their goals.

[Spore]

Apart from the L/C axis there are several kinds of evil. Which kind are we talking about? "I'd kill my enemies' family to teach him a lesson" evil through "I am destroying two nations in a bloody conflict" evil out to "I'll sacrifice several good priests and turn their followers evil to summon an Archdemon to ruin the continent" evil.

[atemu1234]

Lawful Evil is not 'clever evil', it's 'evil with rules'.

Which quite accurately depicts a sociopath. They aren't all that intelligent. Some are, but it's not a necessity.

[nedz]

NOOOOO...not KENDERS!!!!!!

You're really not into this evil campaign thing are you ?

I don't like games at the southern end of the alignment chart too much either, but if you are going to do it then Kenders are a Good choice — also Elves, whatever.

An order of Paladins makes for amusing opponents, as do Clerics — lots of strong role-play here. An evil party beating up common folk gets to be quite dull.

[Krobar]

My players decided to play evil characters a few years ago. They went on a rampagingly murderous crime spree.

They weren't careful and ended up with an angry assassins' guild after them.

[Shining Wrath]

Overreacting makes for good Evil. A paladin wiped out their family because they were Evil, so in retaliation the bad guy wants to wipe out all Paladins.

[jabberwocky9]

You're really not into this evil campaign thing are you ?

I don't like games at the southern end of the alignment chart too much either, but if you are going to do it then Kenders are a Good choice — also Elves, whatever.

An order of Paladins makes for amusing opponents, as do Clerics — lots of strong role-play here. An evil party beating up common folk gets to be quite dull.

Totally agree, getting into that pitfall I was referring to. Right now they're low level and having problems with low level zombies and skeletons and such. They're Noobs so I'm waiting till they are comfortable running their characters and then I'll pick up the pace with the campaign.

[Flickerdart]

Totally agree, getting into that pitfall I was referring to. Right now they're low level and having problems with low level zombies and skeletons and such. They're Noobs so I'm waiting till they are comfortable running their characters and then I'll pick up the pace with the campaign.
Evil overlords are always on the lookout for capable minions. A relatively powerful mover and shaker closer to the deep end of the alignment pool could catch a whiff of these unsavoury adventurers and offer them guidance and protection. Of course, when they get powerful enough, give them the opportunity to usurp the guy's power for themselves.

[Val666]

Tell the ninja to change class <<.<<

[jabberwocky9]

Evil overlords are always on the lookout for capable minions. A relatively powerful mover and shaker closer to the deep end of the alignment pool could catch a whiff of these unsavoury adventurers and offer them guidance and protection. Of course, when they get powerful enough, give them the opportunity to usurp the guy's power for themselves.

Cool, the possible Venger approach...

[jabberwocky9]

Tell the ninja to change class <<.<<

Curious, why?

[Snowbluff]

Curious, why?

It's considered a poor class. Rogues and monks make better ninjas than ninja, and they aren't very good. Swordsage would be ideal, I think.