[3.5 + PF] Building a Mini-Necromancer

[Palanan]

I need a third- or fourth-level necromancer to serve as a local threat in the early stages of a wilderness campaign. This will be an individual bent on corrupting a primeval forest, so I'm looking for something with a blighter feel, plus the ability to create and control low-level undead.

I usually play druids myself, so I'm not sure what would be the best option here. A third-level cleric with Animate Dead could knock out a few skeletons, but I also want the potential for a diseased and dying landscape. What could work here?

[Zaq]

The Summon Undead line of spells can be a way to get undead minions into the hands of someone who's too low level to make and control them normally.

A Necromancer Wizard can have a skeleton minion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necromancerVariants)i nstead of a familiar.

An evil Incarnate (or a LN/CN one with the feat that lets non-evil folks use Necrocarnum) can have a Necrocarnum Zombie starting at level 2. It's only a single minion, but it's about the strongest zombie you're going to get, and what's more, it's intelligent.

I don't have too many suggestions for mechanically making a blighted landscape. You may just have to chalk that one up to fluff.

[deuxhero]

Honestly what you are doing calls for a little more than 2nd level spells. Diminsh Plants is a third level spell and is the earliest effect I know of to do even remotely what you want farther than "1 plant".

I'd go with Dread Necromancer, say lesser animate dead is on their spell list by default and give him a magic item of diminish plant and trying to get access to Cursed Earth (a 9th level spell)

[OldTrees1]

Thou shalt cast thy Command Undead 2nd level spell to command your undead.

[Inevitability]

Take Precocious Apprentice to get Animate Dead, no matter what else you do. If required, combine with Southern Magican.

[OldTrees1]

Take Precocious Apprentice to get Animate Dead, no matter what else you do. If required, combine with Southern Magican.

This requires a 2nd level Animate Dead. That requires the Death Master base class.

Also the character is 3rd-4th level. Precocious Apprentice give almost no advantage.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Zaq
A Necromancer Wizard can have a skeleton minion instead of a familiar.


Originally Posted by OldTrees1
Thou shalt cast thy Command Undead 2nd level spell to command your undead.

Interesting, thanks. I hadn't even been thinking about the arcane approach; I'm thinking more divine for now, but I'll keep these in mind. Pity I can't do a four-level theurge. :smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Zaq
I don't have too many suggestions for mechanically making a blighted landscape. You may just have to chalk that one up to fluff.

I think you're right about that. Probably less headaches all around, since I'd like to maximize the necro-creepiness in the few levels I have to work with.


Originally Posted by deuxhero
I'd go with Dread Necromancer, say lesser animate dead is on their spell list by default….

Worth a look, but I've never actually used a DN before, and in fact I really don't get the class. What would you suggest for a four-level build using Dread Necromancer?

.

[OldTrees1]

Interesting, thanks. I hadn't even been thinking about the arcane approach; I'm thinking more divine for now, but I'll keep these in mind. Pity I can't do a four-level theurge.


Arcane and Divine can both get Command Undead(spell).
Cleric with the Necromancer domain is the easy way.
Archivists can also get it but that requires the "all arcane spells have a divine equivalent trick".



Worth a look, but I've never actually used a DN before, and in fact I really don't get the class. What would you suggest for a four-level build using Dread Necromancer?

Silverbrow Human Dread Necromancer 4 with Versatile Spellcaster, Arcane Disciple(Renewal) and Touch of Healing is the necromancer of the 2 energies(positive and negative). Also has a very creepy torture tool(touch that harms and heals).

Although Silverbrow Human Necromancer 1 / Dread Necromancer 3 with Tattoo Focus(Necromancy) will be able to get Circle Magic via Red Wizard. This is the biggest boost to your undead pool besides the Chain Spell feat. However it is only worth considering if you want an Army(I mean literal conquer nations army) rather than a Squad. Usually it is too much to manage.
Edit: Forgot that this was for a NPC. Ignore the Red Wizard

[Palanan]

Very interesting, I appreciate it.

The Circle Magic option would probably be too much...a conquering-nations-size army would put this guy way out of the commoners' league. A dozen or two very low-level undead is more what I was thinking--terrorizing tribes and the like.

Speaking of which, assuming Lesser Animate Dead is on the DN spell list, how many undead would a DN be able to command at a time? (Remember, I know zilch about this class.)

[OldTrees1]

Very interesting, I appreciate it.

The Circle Magic option would probably be too much...a conquering-nations-size army would put this guy way out of the commoners' league. A dozen or two very low-level undead is more what I was thinking--terrorizing tribes and the like.

Speaking of which, assuming Lesser Animate Dead is on the DN spell list, how many undead would a DN be able to command at a time? (Remember, I know zilch about this class.)

Forget the Red Wizard, I forgot that this was for an NPC.

Animate Dead(including the Lesser version that should be added to the Dread Necromancer's spell list) controls 4 x caster level HD of undead in addition to the number commanded by the Command Undead spell. That is until 8th level in Dread Necromancer. At that point DNs get class level * cha mod additional HD of undead. By then this is a pitiful increase compared to your Command Undead spell.


4th level Dread Necromancer should command:
4 * 4 = 16HD from Lesser Animate Dead (max HD per undead being 8HD)

up to 8 * 4 = 32 undead (each at max HD) from Command Undead. However the practical limit is lower.
4 undead at max HD would cost 1 2nd level slot per day or 2 1st level slots(via Versatile Spellcaster)
4X undead cost Y 2nd level slots + 2Z 1st level slots where X = Y + Z.

The 4th level necromancer can raise 3 undead per day and still command 12 undead for 6 1st level slots and 3 2nd level slots per day. (High cha gives more slots). So the PCs could be whittling down the undead squad before facing the necromancer.

Edit: I did not include Rebuke Undead since I do not know which version of it you are using. And it is a smaller pool (equivalent of a 4th level Cleric)

[Coidzor]

Nightcaller's Whistle AKA Azun-Gund will help a bit, especially if they're Lich-Loved or just spend spells to not be noticed by mindless undead that they create and then release into the wild.

[Jeff the Green]

Cleric with the deathbound and undeath domains. Feats are Fell Animate and DMM (fell animate). Assuming Charisma 16, twice a day he can make any creatures slain by a spell rise as zombies.

Alternatively, a necropolitan cleric with Mad Faith can get a bonus 3rd-level spell slot.

Personally, I'd go with necropolitan Illumian Cloistered Cleric 1/Incarnate 3. Feats are Fell Animate, Mad Faith, Undead Meldshaper, Extend Spell, Surge of Malevolence, and Debilitating Spell (2 from levels, 2 from taint, 2 from flaws). Naen and Hoon sigils, Deathbound and Undeath Domains, and Divine Magician (trading away Knowledge domain). You can do the Fell Animate thing (controlling up to 12 HD of undead) through the naenhoon word, and create a necrocarnum zombie with 3 HD. Every other day you cast an extended undead lieutenant (obtained through Divine Magician) on your necrocarnate zombie, effectively doubling the number of zombies you control. You can also increase the chances of actually killing what you want to animate with Fell Animate by adding 2 Constitution damage to it. You also add ray of enfeeblement and command undead to your class list.

[Inevitability]

This requires a 2nd level Animate Dead. That requires the Death Master base class.

The feat:


Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell. Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully cast this spell; if you fail, the spell is miscast to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this level is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances. When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would.

It says nowhere the chosen spell has to be from your list. Animate dead can be either a 2nd, a 3rd, or a 4th-level spell, and I am just choosing the 2nd-level version.

[OldTrees1]

The feat:



It says nowhere the chosen spell has to be from your list. Animate dead can be either a 2nd, a 3rd, or a 4th-level spell, and I am just choosing the 2nd-level version.

And now all my future Necromancers will have that feat. (Yes, even the 5E ones :smallbiggrin:)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge
Take Precocious Apprentice to get Animate Dead, no matter what else you do. If required, combine with Southern Magic[i]an.

I appreciate the suggestion, but I probably won't be going this route.


Originally Posted by Coidzor
Nightcaller's Whistle AKA Azun-Gund will help a bit….

Ahh, memories. :smallsmile:

If I'm reading this right, though, it can only be used once per week and only controls two zombies at a time. That's…a little underwhelming, for something that would eat up most of this guy's magic budget.


Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
Cleric with the deathbound and undeath domains. Feats are Fell Animate and DMM (fell animate). Assuming Charisma 16, twice a day he can make any creatures slain by a spell rise as zombies.

This sounds interesting, although I've never used DMM before. Wouldn't he want Extra Turning as well? Not really sure how a DMM Fell Animate would work.

And Mad Faith sounds ideal for this guy, at least thematically.


Originally Posted by OldTrees1
The 4th level necromancer can raise 3 undead per day and still command 12 undead for 6 1st level slots and 3 2nd level slots per day. (High cha gives more slots).

This is fairly impressive, although I'm still not comfortable with the DN route. I don't have easy access to the book, and don't have much feel for how the class would work.

If I use a fourth-level cleric with Lesser Animate Dead, how would that compare to the DN in your example? The cleric would be producing them more slowly, but would still end up controlling 16 HD of undead…if I'm reading this right.

.

[OldTrees1]

This is fairly impressive, although I'm still not comfortable with the DN route. I don't have easy access to the book, and don't have much feel for how the class would work.

If I use a fourth-level cleric with Lesser Animate Dead, how would that compare to the DN in your example? The cleric would be producing them more slowly, but would still end up controlling 16 HD of undead…if I'm reading this right.

.

You can find the Dread Necromancer online on one of the database sites like DandDtools. Basically it works as a Cha based spontaneous Necromancer with a Touch attack as a back up.

4th level pathfinder Cleric.
14+ Wis ->
3+1 2nd level spells. Only the Domain spell can be used for Command Undead.
This translates to: 4 8HD undead controlled (+16HD from Lesser Animate) and can raise up to 3 per day.

Comparision:
Maximum 8HD undead commanded(with 14 for a casting stat):
Dread Necromancer 30 vs Cleric 6
Maximum 8HD undead commanded while reanimating army:
Dread Necromancer 14(3 animated per day) vs Cleric 6(3 animated per day)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by OldTrees1
This translates to: 4 8HD undead controlled (+16HD from Lesser Animate) and can raise up to 3 per day.

Meaning four undead creatures of 8 HD apiece?

The DN certainly comes out ahead of the cleric by that metric…but this is meant for a very low-level campaign, so a single 8 HD creature might be overwhelming. I probably should've stated that more clearly up front, sorry about that.

[the clumsy bard]

Gravewalker (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/gravewalker) a witch archetype for pathfinder is always fun. Basically it has that voodoo evil charm to it.

Oracle (again from pathfinder) with the JuJu mystery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/juju) has a semi vibe of a blighter / undead creator and if they ever escape well Juju zombies are pretty nasty buggers.

Oracle with the bones mystery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/bones) gives some nice stuff examples include but are not limited to raise the dead, undead servitude etc... it requires some work but it could be interesting.

Normally wouldn't suggest it but the Undead Lord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cleric-archetypes/undead-lord) archetype for clerics gives you a corpse companion, which would give you an undead creature following said NPC.

Having undead created by any character at the given level is... well improbable, maybe just assign them some skeletons and zombies and have them command them around. That or just say they had some scrolls, a wand. Leave some around and then watch what the party (if they are good) decide what to do with items that are generally considered evil in most campaigns

[Jeff the Green]

This sounds interesting, although I've never used DMM before. Wouldn't he want Extra Turning as well? Not really sure how a DMM Fell Animate would work.

The Undeath domain gives Extra Turning, which is how at Charisma 16 he gets two uses of DMM Fell Animate—3 (base)+ 3 (Cha) + 4 (Extra turning) = 10 / 5 (DMM Fell Animate cost) = 2. The way it would work is before casting a spell he'd decide to spend 5 turn undead attempts (Fell Animate has a spell level adjustment of 4, and you add 1). If the spell kills anyone, they rise as a zombie uder his control. Extra Turning would be useful only if you got another turn undead attempt somewhere, like from a Reliquary Holy Symbol, as it only gives you 4 extra attempts.

[OldTrees1]

Meaning four undead creatures of 8 HD apiece?

The DN certainly comes out ahead of the cleric by that metric…but this is meant for a very low-level campaign, so a single 8 HD creature might be overwhelming. I probably should've stated that more clearly up front, sorry about that.

Yes. 4 undead with 8 HD.

But I am not recommending they face the Dread Necromancer and all the undead at once. An 8HD zombie is a CR 3 encounter in 3.5(8HD skeleton is CR 4). So the party can be whittling down the army by 1-2 zombies(EL 3-5) at a time. They then outpace and/or outmanuever the Dread Necromancer to reach the final encounter where they face the Dread Necromancer and 1 8HD undead (EL 5-6)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by OldTrees1
But I am not recommending they face the Dread Necromancer and all the undead at once. An 8HD zombie is a CR 3 encounter in 3.5(8HD skeleton is CR 4). So the party can be whittling down the army by 1-2 zombies(EL 3-5) at a time.

Okay, I understand this a little better now. Those CRs are still a little high for what I had in mind, but I can adjust accordingly.


Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
The Undeath domain gives Extra Turning, which is how at Charisma 16 he gets two uses of DMM Fell Animate—3 (base)+ 3 (Cha) + 4 (Extra turning) = 10 / 5 (DMM Fell Animate cost) = 2.

Aha! Thanks for explaining that part; much clearer now.

--However, still a bit confused. According to what I'm able to find, Fell Animate uses a spell slot three levels higher than ordinary. My understanding of DMM is that it takes one turn attempt plus one extra for each level being reduced. So, shouldn't Fell Animate take just four turn attempts? Or am I misunderstanding DMM and/or Fell Animate?

[OldTrees1]

Okay, I understand this a little better now. Those CRs are still a little high for what I had in mind, but I can adjust accordingly.



Aha! Thanks for explaining that part; much clearer now.

--However, still a bit confused. According to what I'm able to find, Fell Animate uses a spell slot three levels higher than ordinary. My understanding of DMM is that it takes one turn attempt plus one extra for each level being reduced. So, shouldn't Fell Animate take just four turn attempts? Or am I misunderstanding DMM and/or Fell Animate?

An easy way to adjust the CRs is to decrease the HD. Since the Command Undead spell is the primary control pool, you do not need to adjust the number of undead controlled.


You understand DMM correctly. Jeff was misremembering the spell level adjustment. 3>10/4>2 so you would get 2 of those per day.

[Jeff the Green]

You understand DMM correctly. Jeff was misremembering the spell level adjustment. 3>10/4>2 so you would get 2 of those per day.

:smallredface: Yeah, I've only really used DMM for Quicken, so "five turn attempts" is probably burned into my brain more than is really useful. In this case, you're best off not taking Extra Turning as a feat but instead picking up a Reliquary Holy Symbol and making sure you have 5 ranks in Knowledge (religion). That will net you 3 (base) + 3 (Cha) + 4 (Extra Turning—Undeath domain) + 2 (Reliquary Holy Symbol—5 Know (religion) ranks and a Divine feat) = 12 turn attempts or three uses per day.

If you go this route, I'd suggest allowing your players to use the "redeeming evil magical items" rules in BoED to modify the holy symbol. I don't think they could sell it in good conscience, since it only works for followers of the specific deity it's made for, and they probably can't make use of it themselves.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by OldTrees1
You understand DMM correctly.

Whoo hoo!! I have math skills! :smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
In this case, you're best off not taking Extra Turning as a feat but instead picking up a Reliquary Holy Symbol and making sure you have 5 ranks in Knowledge (religion). That will net you 3 (base) + 3 (Cha) + 4 (Extra Turning—Undeath domain) + 2 (Reliquary Holy Symbol—5 Know (religion) ranks and a Divine feat) = 12 turn attempts or three uses per day.

Very nice, thanks. I think I'll do this.

So, I'm really leaning towards a cleric at this point. He'll be a fourth-level human with one flaw, so apart from DMM and Fell Animate that should give him two other feats to work with.

What should those two other feats be? Mad Faith would be a nice boost to his spell slots, and it fits him to a T, but I'm open to all manner of options.




Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
I don't think they could sell it in good conscience, since it only works for followers of the specific deity it's made for, and they probably can't make use of it themselves.

But they'll try, though. You know they'll try.

:smallbiggrin:

[Jeff the Green]

What should those two other feats be? Mad Faith would be a nice boost to his spell slots, and it fits him to a T, but I'm open to all manner of options.

Hmm. Are you using my Cleric 1/Incarnate 3 idea or Cleric 4? Also, are you using my suggestion of trading cloistered cleric's Knowledge domain for Divine Magician?

If you're getting Divine Magician (and thus using undead lieutenant), Extend Spell would be very useful. It's nice anyway, actually.

Extra slot would give you a 2nd-level slot, which is awesome—if you choose the spontaneous domain ACF (not the feat) for Deathbound, you can use that 2nd-level slot for blade of pain and fear, which is one of my favorite spells.

If you're going with Incarnate, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity could be useful. Probably not for Necrocarnum Circlet, though; find another soulmeld you like. Incidentally, azurin would be better for Incarnate than human; you give up a skill point/level for 1 essentia.

[Coidzor]

Ahh, memories. :smallsmile:

If I'm reading this right, though, it can only be used once per week and only controls two zombies at a time. That's…a little underwhelming, for something that would eat up most of this guy's magic budget.

Honestly can't recall, though most parties that use it will typically only fill up on 2 zombies per party member and replenish as necessary and the rest will usually sell it or destroy/retain essence it.

You can probably get away with having this thing get taken out against the wealth of the treasure-less animals/undead that the party will face leading up to your Necrodancer, though, so that should ease up the tightness of his budget.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
Are you using my Cleric 1/Incarnate 3 idea or Cleric 4?

Ah, should've mentioned--I'll be going simple Cleric 4.


Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
Extra slot would give you a 2nd-level slot, which is awesome—if you choose the spontaneous domain ACF (not the feat) for Deathbound, you can use that 2nd-level slot for blade of pain and fear, which is one of my favorite spells.

I'll have to do some more reading here, but this does sound like an effective option.

As for Divine Magician, I'm not at all familiar with that one. More reading….



EDIT: Okay, with Divine Magician, it looks like I'd be trading a domain power for two arcane spells, one first-level and one second-level.

Not sure if that's the best trade, but it would give the option for Command Undead.

[Jeff the Green]

Okay, with Divine Magician, it looks like I'd be trading a domain power for two arcane spells, one first-level and one second-level.

Not sure if that's the best trade, but it would give the option for Command Undead.

Three, actually. You have access to 3rd-level spells through Mad Faith, and so you'd get to choose a 3rd-level Wizard spell. Personally, I'd choose Undead Lieutenant if you can swing an intelligent undead without incarnum. Also, you lose the entire domain, not just the power. The Knowledge domain doesn't really benefit this character, so a Cloistered Cleric could trade it for Divine Magician.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
You have access to 3rd-level spells through Mad Faith, and so you'd get to choose a 3rd-level Wizard spell.

Aha, I missed that…haven't read up on the depravity rules. Does seem interesting, although the Undead Lieutenant route might not be a good fit for this particular necro-guy. He's not quite that organized, mentally or otherwise.

:smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
Also, you lose the entire domain, not just the power. The Knowledge domain doesn't really benefit this character, so a Cloistered Cleric could trade it for Divine Magician.

Did notice that one, and it could certainly fit.

So, that's the Divine Magician ACF, with DMM, Fell Animate, and possibly Mad Faith. Any suggestions for the last feat? You mentioned Extra Slot, but I'm open to other notions.

.