monk + fighting style

[numerek]

archery - not much synergy as only melee weapons are monk weapons and there is a debate about whether thrown weapons count as ranged weapons (including between the game designers)

defense - some abilities require unarmored, monks have no armor proficiencies and can nearly match if 20 in dex and wis

dueling - I believe this works RAW with your monk weapons, and your unarmed strikes if you are completely unarmed. This would also improve other extra attacks like haste, action surge and reaction attacks.

great weapon fighting - works with quarterstaff or spear. only adds .75 damage average which means would lose to a d6 weapon with dueling style by .25 and total lose once martial arts dice get to d8.

protection - some abilities require no shield and monks are not proficient in shields

two-weapon fighting - would only be better at low levels or if you have 2 magical weapons that are better than unarmed (which could possibly have magical items that improve them)

Obviously dm could change any of this if they want to, consider thrown weapons as ranged or allow monks to use ranged simple non-heavy non-two-handed weapons as monk weapons, consider unarmored defense as armor, not consider a no weapon monk to be dueling, say that the monk hits with both fists at the same time for great weapon fighting, remove shield requirement

to me dueling seem best. At 6th level you could be hitting for 4 d6 attacks with an extra +2 damage each. At 7th level with a two level dip in fighter plus having someone cast haste on you and getting a reaction attack somehow could result in +16 damage in a turn from the dueling style, plus the regular damage of the extra action surge attacks.

I've tried looking around for whether or not this is legit. unarmed is in the melee weapon section. And there is nothing in the monk description that you can't do all your attacks with the same appendage and there is nothing saying that both fists count as two weapons, and you could argue that the monk is one weapon and you can hit with any part of it.

[BRKNdevil]

archery - not much synergy as only melee weapons are monk weapons and there is a debate about whether thrown weapons count as ranged weapons (including between the game designers)

defense - some abilities require unarmored, monks have no armor proficiencies and can nearly match if 20 in dex and wis

dueling - I believe this works RAW with your monk weapons, and your unarmed strikes if you are completely unarmed

great weapon fighting - works with quarterstaff or spear. only adds .75 damage average which means would lose to a d6 weapon with dueling style by .25 and total lose once martial arts dice get to d8.

protection - some abilities require no shield and monks are not proficient in shields

two-weapon fighting - would only be better at low levels or if you have 2 magical weapons that are better than unarmed (which could possibly have magical items that improve them)

Obviously dm could change any of this if they want to, consider thrown weapons as ranged or allow monks to use ranged simple non-heavy non-two-handed weapons as monk weapons, consider unarmored defense as armor, not consider a no weapon monk to be dueling, say that the monk hits with both fists at the same time for great weapon fighting, remove shield requirement

to me dueling seem best. At 6th level you could be hitting for 4 d6 attacks with an extra +2 damage each.

I've tried looking around for whether or not this is legit. unarmed is in the melee weapon section. And there is nothing in the monk description that you can't do all your attacks with the same appendage and there is nothing saying that both fists count as two weapons, and you could argue that the monk is one weapon and you can hit with any part of it.

Remember that you get to replace the damage dice of any Martial Arts Weapon if you want with the Martial Arts damage die.

[Hytheter]

Remember that you get to replace the damage dice of any Martial Arts Weapon if you want with the Martial Arts damage die.

Oh man I hadn't realised that, thanks for drawing my attention to it.

I mean it only matters at later levels, but it's nice to know.

[Easy_Lee]

If you have a way to get duelist, that's the one you want. It works with quarterstaffs since they're usable in one hand. People have been talking about duelist quarterstaff builds with polearm master and a shield (edit: for fighters), since it technically gets +2 on the bonus attack, higher AC, and more consistent damage than other polearm options at low levels at least.

Picking up duelist on an open hand monk would potentially add 4 damage on a flurry.

[Person_Man]

I agree that Dueling is the best Fighting Style option for a multi-class Monk.

Having said that, I would argue that the Monk is perhaps one of the worst possible classes to multi-class with. So if you're going to play a Monk, just play a Monk. It might be worth dipping into something else at high levels after you pick up Diamond Soul. But at that point, the difference between an extra +1ish to damage is going to be negligible.

[Easy_Lee]

I agree with what person_man said. If eventually there's a way to get a fighting style with a feat, and you don't need the attribute boost for wisdom or dexterity, then that may be the thing to do.

[numerek]

obviously you can take the dip whenever you like, I think 3, 6, 7, 9, 15(character level after the level up) are some of the better spots.
at 3rd you have flurry of blows now and can therefore get the bonus damage 3 times, and twice when you don't use your bonus action for something else. at 6th level you have extra attack and d6 martial arts dice, at 7th your unarmed is considered magical, at 9th you got your second ASI and 7th level features, and at 15th you have diamond soul.

As far as no multiclassing at all that entirely depends on your character concept.
I believe there are many viable multiclass options for a monk.
1-4 level dip into fighter
1-4 level dip into rogue
1-4 level dip into warlock

I believe anything will work if it is what you want but I think those classes have some obvious synergy

If you go for 20th level builds nobody would be better at saving throws than a 6th level paladin/14th level monk it would probably be over kill but if you are a halfling there is a very small chance of failing the most difficult of saves.

reroll all d20 1s, advantage of save vs frightened, either subrace is fine but lightfoot help get charisma to 20, stouts resilience is redundant with monks poison immunity, evasion, can end charmed and frightened effects, immune to disease and poison, proficiency in all saving throws and can spend ki to reroll failed saves. redundant immunity to disease, charisma modifier to all saves.
with point buy and 4 ASI you could have at 20th
str dex con int wis cha
stat 8 18 8 8 18 20
save 10 15 10 10 15 16

obviously those numbers are skewed towards monks primary stats if you want even better overall saves
str dex con int wis cha
stat 12 14 12 12 14 20
save 12 13 12 12 13 16

[numerek]

Remember that you get to replace the damage dice of any Martial Arts Weapon if you want with the Martial Arts damage die.

I'm not really sure what I posted that is aided by the reminder


great weapon fighting - works with quarterstaff or spear. only adds .75 damage average which means would lose to a d6 weapon with dueling style by .25 and total lose once martial arts dice get to d8.

two-weapon fighting - would only be better at low levels or if you have 2 magical weapons that are better than unarmed (which could possibly have magical items that improve them)

Those are the only two places that could maybe benefit from the reminder, but even when great weapon fighting goes up to d10 when the martial arts dice get that high a single hand weapon or unarmed would do more damage with the dueling feat. 6.3 vs 7.5

two-weapon fighting here the reminder makes a little more sense because really it means that whatever the magically enhance is it would be better than unmagically enhanced unarmed. I think the party would have to be pretty stacked with magical weapons or have few melee classes to give the monk 2 magical weapons when it would provide a very small bonus and still the fighting style is only applying the bonus to one attack(when the monk doesn't want to use his bonus action for something else) granted that bonus could be +5.

Edited original post with more elaboration on dueling

[Easy_Lee]

I still am not so sure that multiclassing for more damage is wise as a monk. Unlike GWF barbarians or the popular Warlock 2 / Sorcerer X build, monk's biggest contribution isn't their DPR. They're more designed for control and staying alive. The paths add very good stealth (shadow), middling utility (four elements), or even better control and staying power (open hand). They also are easily the best class for taking down enemy spellcasters due to their speed, saves, and stunning fist targeting wisdom CON. Even the warcaster feat only grants advantage to con saves for maintaining spells, not getting stunned.

Rather than try to compete with the barbarians, assassins, and champions for the spot of mundane DPR, I think it would be better to play to their strengths, multiclassing only when it helps the goal you're trying to achieve. For instance, a shadow monk 6 / thief 3 has some of the best stealth in the game and can cast pass without trace. Play a woodelf or lightfoot halfling and you're basically never going to be found by anyone you're trying to hid from.

Or, just go pure monk and have the maximum number of ki points. This is the only viable option for four elements monks since they have the most severe problems with ki economy. I have no idea what wizards was thinking with elemental monks, and would houserule if a player wanted to play one. Shadow monks are the easiest to multiclass since they have the most abilities that don't require ki. Open hand monks are somewhere in the middle.

[mabriss lethe]

I will say that TWF is generally pretty useless for a monk, since Martial arts/Flurry both use bonus actions to line up the extra attack (the same as TWF) and you get the full benefit without having to multiclass/ invest in feats.

On the other side of the equation: Ranged lets you do something you otherwise suck at, distance damage. You're already quite competent in melee. Now you'd have something you're good at when melee isn't a good option/when you're closing the gap. If nothing else, it would be a pretty sweet way to cook up a Green Arrow-esque build (a la Arrow, not so much the comic version.)

[Z3ro]

They also are easily the best class for taking down enemy arcane spellcasters due to their speed, saves, and stunning fist targeting wisdom.


Nitpick: Stunning fist targets con.

[Easy_Lee]

Nitpick: Stunning fist targets con.

My mistake, fixed it. Seems like it used to target wis, though con is a good switch to reinforce the monk's anti-caster nature.