Epic feats early

[j_spencer93]

Does anyone who DMs ever allow PCs to take epic feats early if they meet the prerequisites?

[Uncle Pine]

If they meet all the prerequisites yes, indeed. Although this generally means that you have a dragonwrought kobold as a PC (which is not necessarily a bad thing, mind you).

[Phelix-Mu]

I might let it slide if someone presented me with a mid-op Martial Monk in a game that was similarly mid-op. But, otherwise, there are a whole can of exploits that can be opened up with judicious feat selection from the Epic Feats, and I generally am trying to limit the crazy in the game to mainly what my players toss my way in terms of in-character choices. Crazy mechanics are cool in some games, but often just create a distraction from the fun by causing the DM headaches.

[Know(Nothing)]

I have a 3.5 rebuild that includes allowing non-casters access to epic feats at level 10, among other things. It totally depends on your players.

If you have one player who is an optimized wizard/class salad, and one who is a vanilla fighter or barbarian, the latter needs some help.

[j_spencer93]

lol its actually Righteous strike for a lawful good vow of poverty monk (dont need to hear the BS about sub op, ik). i have noticed one player of mine also sticks out more then the other two no matter how i build their characters, so thinking allowing epic feats earlier may help, as will being a little more generous with role playing rewards.

[eggynack]

Seems like a thing worth allowing selectively. Some of those epic feats are absolutely terrible, after all, and don't particularly deserve to be epic as a result. Thus, I likely would allow righteous strike, which is somewhere between bad and mediocre, on a VoP monk, which is absolutely terrible. You may not want to hear about how your build is suboptimal, but it should factor into consideration when making decisions like this.

[j_spencer93]

Oh i know it needs considered, and thanks for the input, just did not want to hear it for the 100th time.

[Phelix-Mu]

lol its actually Righteous strike for a lawful good vow of poverty monk (dont need to hear the BS about sub op, ik). i have noticed one player of mine also sticks out more then the other two no matter how i build their characters, so thinking allowing epic feats earlier may help, as will being a little more generous with role playing rewards.

Exalted VoP monks should likely be allowed to overcome DR/alignment anyway, since it's stupid that they can't. Adding on the +2d6 is not that much besides.

Also, was it Holy Meditation or something that trades Still Mind for extra damage to evil creatures? I'd just cram that ACF into VoP for free.

Also, search Drolyt's VoP Fix for some ideas about a less sucky version of VoP. If the monk is looking sad, I'd head in that direction before allowing epic feats (as epic stuff for one character but not others seems a bit unfair from a player standpoint). Not that is unfair, since it's already unfair that one of the characters is going to be problematic from an effectiveness standpoint (or potentially so, based on the op-level of the game).

[j_spencer93]

Well the epic feat question was in general, just so happens i was working on a monk. If i allow them normally (as long as all prerequisites are meet) would it really change the balance of the game really? Ignore the monk part please, I mean in general.

[eggynack]

Y'know, it's worth asking, how much of a middle ground is there between awful epic feats and amazing epic feats? There's a short list that just break the game in half, a massively long list that you probably shouldn't even take as a normal feat (Epic endurance? Seriously?), and then there's presumably that in between place, and the real assessment necessarily has to take place there.

Might be worth going through some epic feats to see how it plays out. Additional item space is pretty awful in a world where combining together items into a slot is perfectly allowed, if at a premium, armor skin is just the worst, augmented alchemy is also really bad, though at least interesting, automatic quicken looks quite powerful but the 9th prerequisite probably holds it back from broken status (I'm just ignoring skill prerequisites, I think), and the other two automatic whatevers are just your standard mediocre feats.

Continuing into the B's, the only feat that could possibly cause problems is bonus domain, and again, the fact that you're already fully capable of casting miracle at that point tones down its power a lot. The rest are either really bad or close to it. C looks short, so I'll just do that one also. I'm pretty sure that crafting epic items isn't that great, and it's especially not great before epic levels. Might be great if you're breaking WBL, but at that point there are bigger problems. Chaotic rage is pretty bad, I'm pretty sure that colossal wild shape is quite bad (couldn't even find anything really interesting when researching gargantuan), and combat archery seems kinda nifty, but it also seems like the kind of thing that I'd allow in in a heartbeat, to the point where it might be worth just making archery like that natively.

So, yeah. Lotsa crap so far, and it goes on and on like that through the list. Not all of the list though. I'd hesitate a bit before allowing exceptional deflection, I'd hesitate an infinite amount before allowing epic spellcasting (maybe even in an epic game), and there are likely a couple of other things like that. So, again, be selective. My suspicion, however, is that you probably won't have to ban by build+feat, which comes across as unfair, and that just banning away the overpowered feats will be sufficient. Seriously though, so much crap. Lots of them are just inexplicable.

[j_spencer93]

i agree that most are crap actually. Like seriously, who the hell thought of this "epic" feats when most normal feats are better? On the other hand, exceptional deflection does seem a little worrisome, so keeping an eye on feats as my players choose them may be a smart move

[Phelix-Mu]

i agree that most are crap actually. Like seriously, who the hell thought of this "epic" feats when most normal feats are better? On the other hand, exceptional deflection does seem a little worrisome, so keeping an eye on feats as my players choose them may be a smart move

Note that Exceptional Deflection is basically a different mechanic for the same thing as the friendly fire spell when combined with the feat Reflect Arrows. Exceptional Deflection isn't huge deal (as it would be sensible if someone in the world wasn't instantly gibbed by rays), but it becomes problematic when combined with Infinite Reflection and Reflect Arrows. There is an itty bitty chunk of RAW discontinuity for a DM to stand on for ruling that the feats don't combine as logic suggests they do, but it is pretty unclear, so you should make up your mind before a player happens upon the combo and uses it.

[OldTrees1]

Most of the non caster Epic Feats are weak even at non Epic levels. I allow my non epic PCs to take them if they can justify easier prereqs and satisfy those easier prereqs.

Caster Epic Feats are banned from my non Epic games.