Help with PCs vs Dragon of higher CR

[Rainbaw]

So, in the campaign we are playing the party decided to "rush things up" withouth even knowing they ventured directly against a "major boss encounter" it was planned as a CR 9 (young adult black dragon) and it was already mentioned by other NPCs the capabilities and age of the dragon, they are still going after him (mostly because over confident non aware of the actual stats of creatures player theme they have).

So my problem is, how do i level de CR (they are lvl 6) withouth making this an xp and hoard piñata for them? lowring the cr to a younger dragon would make it too easy for them, and chanigng the dragon color can't be done (already mentioned there was a black dragon). I tought of handing them "dragon bane arrows" sort of like the weapons enchantment (can't remember the name in english, the +2d6 of damage to that type of creature. god it's too early, sorry!). Or handing them a poison that is strong against dragons..

Any sugestions on how to handle this in a balanced way?

[Firest Kathon]

Question: Why do you want to handle this in a balanced way? They have been warned, if they go after the dragon anyways, let them face the consequences. If they beat it, all the better for them, give them their well-deserved loot and XP. If they fail ... :smallamused:

There's a few options how to continue the campaign if they fail: Rescued at the last minute, revived by a friendly cleric, ... In any case, their helper will want a payment - instant plot hook :).

[Bulhakov]

I would try to hint to the players about how tough the fight might be, e.g. have the players:
- witness the dragon slaughtering a party of a much higher level than they are (maybe a wandering paladin+cleric duo) or a couple of monsters that were very difficult for the party to defeat
- find notes about the dragon's stats and abilities left by previously defeated dragonslayers

The second option could be easily combined with your anti-dragon items.

My quick scenario idea:
- the players find an abandoned camp in the woods near the dragon cave
- the camp shows signs of recent fighting and a lot of magical damage (burnt trees, etc.)
- bodies of several dragonslayers
- in a tent they find the jurnal of the party's mage that has detailed info of the next target (the young black dragon) as well as a chronicle of the in-party conflict (which must have culminated in the recent violence)
- all valuables and all small magic items were looted, but several heavy items remain (e.g. acid-proof shield, spear of dragonslaying, helm of courage)

[Bronk]

I second (third?) the idea that the fight shouldn't be nerfed, and that you should play up how dangerous the dragon is. In fact, don't hand them all custom made dragon killing implements, either... anyone could have used them, and the dragon wouldn't have been a threat in the first place! Instead give them a bit more info as they approach the time and place of the dragon fight. Play up destroyed camps and scared NPCs with wild stories.

In that way, they might get enough information about the dragon to make a more informed decision. They might find out how big it is, how tough, how fast... what color, its possible weaknesses and so on. They might even figure out a way to fight it effectively!

On the other hand, it sounds like you don't want to just TPK them. That's nice of you! I suggest putting the dragon in an old mine. Put some traps or obstacles for their trip in, for a few reasons... to slow them down, wear them out, but also to let the dragon know they are coming. Pit traps, shriekers... stuff like that.

Here's the thing though: play up how rickety the old mine is, with ancient, rotting timbers barely holding it up. Then, give them a couple of chances to flee. Once before they get to the dragon's lair (have the dragon bellow in anger, shaking the ground and causing dirt to fall on their heads, perhaps ordering minions to attack ahead of it, perhaps some low level kobolds), and then once they're actually fighting it (maybe it opens up with a breath weapon, which would take most of it's actions for the round... if they feel they aren't up to it, they can flee). Maybe an NPC is with them, and they'll flee first to give them the idea.

Finally, on the way out, they can knock down some of those rickety supports and trap the dragon inside with a cave in, giving them time to get away and lay low for a while. In the next couple of days, you can spread rumors that the dragon is looking for them, making things tense for them while they level up a bit more.

That can be an escape route even if they keep attacking and only one or two of them are left...

[Rainbaw]

I second (third?) the idea that the fight shouldn't be nerfed, and that you should play up how dangerous the dragon is. In fact, don't hand them all custom made dragon killing implements, either... anyone could have used them, and the dragon wouldn't have been a threat in the first place! Instead give them a bit more info as they approach the time and place of the dragon fight. Play up destroyed camps and scared NPCs with wild stories.

In that way, they might get enough information about the dragon to make a more informed decision. They might find out how big it is, how tough, how fast... what color, its possible weaknesses and so on. They might even figure out a way to fight it effectively!

On the other hand, it sounds like you don't want to just TPK them. That's nice of you! I suggest putting the dragon in an old mine. Put some traps or obstacles for their trip in, for a few reasons... to slow them down, wear them out, but also to let the dragon know they are coming. Pit traps, shriekers... stuff like that.

Here's the thing though: play up how rickety the old mine is, with ancient, rotting timbers barely holding it up. Then, give them a couple of chances to flee. Once before they get to the dragon's lair (have the dragon bellow in anger, shaking the ground and causing dirt to fall on their heads, perhaps ordering minions to attack ahead of it, perhaps some low level kobolds), and then once they're actually fighting it (maybe it opens up with a breath weapon, which would take most of it's actions for the round... if they feel they aren't up to it, they can flee). Maybe an NPC is with them, and they'll flee first to give them the idea.

Finally, on the way out, they can knock down some of those rickety supports and trap the dragon inside with a cave in, giving them time to get away and lay low for a while. In the next couple of days, you can spread rumors that the dragon is looking for them, making things tense for them while they level up a bit more.

That can be an escape route even if they keep attacking and only one or two of them are left...


The dragon has a tribe of kobolds acting as guards and servants, they have a puzzle setted in the door to cave where his lair is, there are only two entrances, one leads into a big chamber that is practically below where the dragon sleeps and keeps his hoard, so he has enough space to fly and a higher ground with no means to get up there but climbing.
The other entrance is a door that is sealed, the only way to open it is a puzzle (the puzzle involves killing kobolds for clues, or intimidating them which is unlikely) the puzzle will punish them with various effects, from damage to reduce person and a force cage for a few hours, intended to wear them out and make them go away if they can't solve it.

I was thinking giving them the option to buy scrolls of energy resist, and have the local mage warn them about this dragon... but this party is a bit delicate to deal with! they are too used to me being a good dm and not throwing lethal encounters (or i throw encounters that are not a certain death at least! difficult but possible if they are smart enough)

[galan]

meta-game.

no, i'm serious. just meta-game and tell them OOC "oh yea, he is way too high level for you. it will probably be a TPK. not even a close one".

the players are obiously expacting a not-so-challanging fight. in game warnings mean nothing really, they'll think you want to create "hype".
making sure everyone is having fun is more important than staying IC. of course, TPKs can be fun too sometimes - but your players will be surprised, and probably angry. be the DM they need, not the DM they deserve. meta game for the sake of fun!

[Rainbaw]

meta-game.

no, i'm serious. just meta-game and tell them OOC "oh yea, he is way too high level for you. it will probably be a TPK. not even a close one".

the players are obiously expacting a not-so-challanging fight. in game warnings mean nothing really, they'll think you want to create "hype".
making sure everyone is having fun is more important than staying IC. of course, TPKs can be fun too sometimes - but your players will be surprised, and probably angry. be the DM they need, not the DM they deserve. meta game for the sake of fun!

I may have to railroad them a bit... I wanted to avoid telling them "oh the thing you wanted to do next session willg et you all killed! you will have to travel somewhere else and come back later"
I'm still debating myself over the matter >o<

[Red Fel]

I was thinking giving them the option to buy scrolls of energy resist, and have the local mage warn them about this dragon... but this party is a bit delicate to deal with! they are too used to me being a good dm and not throwing lethal encounters (or i throw encounters that are not a certain death at least! difficult but possible if they are smart enough)

You're not throwing a lethal encounter at them. You've prepared an encounter which may not be as lethal at higher levels. They are choosing to fight it before they're ready. They are choosing, in effect, to bring a knife to a gunfight.

You may be delicate with your players. That's your discretion, and a stylistic choice. But this goes beyond planning encounters that are "difficult but possible if they are smart enough." This is giving the PCs plot armor.

Every DM must, ultimately, face the same question: Am I willing to let this character die? It doesn't matter if it's a PC, an NPC, a DMPC, a BBEG, or what-have-you, the answer must always be the same: If the PCs' actions would otherwise cause this character to die, it must die. This rule applies just as much to PCs as to NPCs. If a player announces, "My character reaches out and grabs the Sphere of Annihilation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#sphereofAnnihilation)," don't tell him he can't, and don't magically save him. Ask him if he's sure. Remind him what (if anything) he knows about these things. And if he persists, fine. PC dies, roll a new character.

I'm with the others here. Warn the PCs. Warn the players. Give them every reason to reconsider. Don't give them magical encounter-specific gear. Don't nerf the encounter you planned. Don't railroad them away from their decision. If they want to grab the Sphere of Annihilation (here, a very large and angry Dragon) let them. Their PCs will die and they'll roll new characters, hopefully a little wiser for the experience.

[galan]

I may have to railroad them a bit... I wanted to avoid telling them "oh the thing you wanted to do next session willg et you all killed! you will have to travel somewhere else and come back later"
I'm still debating myself over the matter >o<

why not? why not to just tell them the truth instead of forcing them into another direction? i mean yes, if you can do it elegantly it can work well, but if not - honesty will work. these are your friends, not strangers (i hope..) and as such they will understand the situation and should be fine with it. sure it sucks, but remain open and honest and it should work just fine.

[Rainbaw]

why not? why not to just tell them the truth instead of forcing them into another direction? i mean yes, if you can do it elegantly it can work well, but if not - honesty will work. these are your friends, not strangers (i hope..) and as such they will understand the situation and should be fine with it. sure it sucks, but remain open and honest and it should work just fine.

I took this advice and sent a message to them on facebook explaining the situation. they said i could either ignore the data i gave to them and make the dragon CR appropiate (taking him back one step in the age table leaves him at CR 7).
Or take them into another direction and move the problem to a later location, ignoring all the matter.


Thanks for the help! really apreciate it!