New Player just blew my mind!

[Mirakk]

Hey guys,

Just wanted to share this story about my game yesterday. I'm running a campaign for new characters. It's a mixed party. Two seasoned vets, and 3 new players. Both of the veteran players have experience DMing. Yesterday a new player did something I'd never seen happen before, nor even had the thought that this might be a possibility.

The party was fighting an Assassin Vine, and the Dwarf battle sorcerer is at -9 HP and needs to roll to stabilize, or die. His turn comes up, and I'm like "Oh man, here we go, let's see that stabilization roll". He says "I delay my turn until the end of the round".

JAW DROP. Epic applause.

On the next initiative, the bard runs up and casts cure moderate wounds, and is able to heal him up to 2hp. He takes his turn and activates his healing belt for 4D8, and is back in fighting condition.


I wanted to give the guy a medal. Genius.

[JBarca]

I seem to recall (though I can't cite this at all) that if you're bleeding out, you can't delay (can't really make decisions at that point).
Or maybe it was that you technically actually bleed at the end of each round anyway?
Basically, I don't think that actually works.

[Psyren]

Actually, stabilize rolls are supposed to happen at the end of the round. You were actually making a mistake by having him roll to stabilize on his initiative.


Dying

A dying character is unconscious and near death. She has -1 to -9 current hit points. A dying character can take no actions and is unconscious. At the end of each round (starting with the round in which the character dropped below 0 hit points), the character rolls d% to see whether she becomes stable. She has a 10% chance to become stable. If she does not, she loses 1 hit point. If a dying character reaches -10 hit points, she is dead.

So your player's cunning strategy was actually to make you do what you should have been doing the whole time :smallbiggrin:

Basically, it was designed precisely so that a healer class (like the bard in your story) always has the time to do just what he did.

[nedz]

If you allow this then there is nothing to stop him delaying indefinitely, since you can miss entire rounds when Delaying.

However

Dying (-1 to -9 Hit Points)

When your character’s current hit points drop to between -1 and -9 inclusive, he’s dying.

A dying character immediately falls unconscious and can take no actions.

A dying character loses 1 hit point every round. This continues until the character dies or becomes stable (see below).

Delaying is a Special Initiative Action — so he cannot choose to Delay.

[StoneCipher]

Regardless of when the bleeding out happens, it's silly to think an unconscious character can delay any actions. Especially things he has literally zero control over.

That's like saying you cut yourself but you're just going to do nothing so it doesn't bleed until help can arrive.

[grarrrg]

That's like saying you cut yourself but you're just going to do nothing so it doesn't bleed until help can arrive.

Well...depending on the size/severity/location of said cut, it is possible that not moving will make it not bleed.

But in a Dnd "-9 hp" situation, the 'cut' would likely be freaking huge and you're gonna bleed either way so...

[Psyren]

If you allow this then there is nothing to stop him delaying indefinitely, since you can miss entire rounds when Delaying.

Indeed - this is the other major issue here. If you're allowed to delay while bleeding out you can simply put off your turn and never bleed out.


Well...depending on the size/severity/location of said cut, it is possible that not moving will make it not bleed.

But in a Dnd "-9 hp" situation, the 'cut' would likely be freaking huge and you're gonna bleed either way so...

Or it could be a smaller wound but the guy was bleeding for a while. It's not clear from the OP's recounting either way.

[StoneCipher]

However, does it say when you're unconscious that you lose your spot in initiative? I would think that if you do fall unconscious, your turn is automatically delayed until the end of the round. That's the way I've always done it.

[Psyren]

However, does it say when you're unconscious that you lose your spot in initiative? I would think that if you do fall unconscious, your turn is automatically delayed until the end of the round. That's the way I've always done it.

You don't lose your turn - it just becomes irrelevant since you can't act anyway, and the stabilize roll happens at the end of the round.

If someone were to heal you back to consciousness before your initiative would have happened, you get to use it; if they weren't able to get to you until after your turn had passed, you simply wait for the next one. It's no different than being paralyzed etc.

[Nibbens]

I think we're missing the point here.


JAW DROP. Epic applause.
I wanted to give the guy a medal. Genius.

If this new player came up with a tactical idea to save his own life - which caused a response of applause around the table, who cares if RAW or RAI has anything to say on the matter. This was a new player who asked a question that several veterans never thought of before. Sure the DM let's it slide because it's a new player and he wants him to see the game from many different angles, playing in a cooperative story is one angle, a tactical battle setting is another.

Sure, he'll probably never let it happen again, but in that moment, a new player captured the essence of the game and showed a few old timers what creative thinking can accomplish.

Forget the rules for this time, OP. You did the right thing. Getting a new player acquainted with the game and letting him slide on a trivial thing while getting a positive reaction from the veterans might be the reason this player keeps playing D&D instead of being one of those people who play it once and never touch it again because they had the bad/unfortunate experience of dying.

[Rubik]

Actually, it is possible to take actions in certain, limited contexts, such as the Autohypnosis skill and a power (probably a healing one) manifested using the Unconditional Power feat.

You can always delay using one of those, if you have them...

[Psyren]

I think we're missing the point here.



If this new player came up with a tactical idea to save his own life - which caused a response of applause around the table, who cares if RAW or RAI has anything to say on the matter. This was a new player who asked a question that several veterans never thought of before. Sure the DM let's it slide because it's a new player and he wants him to see the game from many different angles, playing in a cooperative story is one angle, a tactical battle setting is another.

Sure, he'll probably never let it happen again, but in that moment, a new player captured the essence of the game and showed a few old timers what creative thinking can accomplish.

Forget the rules for this time, OP. You did the right thing. Getting a new player acquainted with the game and letting him slide on a trivial thing while getting a positive reaction from the veterans might be the reason this player keeps playing D&D instead of being one of those people who play it once and never touch it again because they had the bad/unfortunate experience of dying.

You're right, big picture it is probably experiences like this that will keep the newer person coming back to D&D. Without speaking for anyone else though - all I was pointing out was that this is a scenario the designers actually thought of for the game as a whole, rather than for those players savvy enough to think of delaying while dying.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think we're missing the point here.



If this new player came up with a tactical idea to save his own life - which caused a response of applause around the table, who cares if RAW or RAI has anything to say on the matter. This was a new player who asked a question that several veterans never thought of before. Sure the DM let's it slide because it's a new player and he wants him to see the game from many different angles, playing in a cooperative story is one angle, a tactical battle setting is another.

Sure, he'll probably never let it happen again, but in that moment, a new player captured the essence of the game and showed a few old timers what creative thinking can accomplish.

Forget the rules for this time, OP. You did the right thing. Getting a new player acquainted with the game and letting him slide on a trivial thing while getting a positive reaction from the veterans might be the reason this player keeps playing D&D instead of being one of those people who play it once and never touch it again because they had the bad/unfortunate experience of dying.

+1. Well said. The biggest rule of all is "for fun," and this bit of creative use of the rules (as they were understood at the table at the time), was fun. Thus, there is little virtue in nay-saying it, except to let the OP know that it's not RAW for this to be possible.

So I think both types of comments are useful, but I try to err on the side needing more support, and there is little doubt that I am not the most qualified RAW expert here anyway.

Props to the OP for feeling the momentum of the audience and letting it fly. Probably should shut it down to prevent it ballooning into a problem, or codify it and let the others know that it's a houserule, not RAW.

[nedz]

Actually, it is possible to take actions in certain, limited contexts, such as the Autohypnosis skill and a power (probably a healing one) manifested using the Unconditional Power feat.

You can always delay using one of those, if you have them...

Specific Trumps General. Contingencies can fire also, if you have those, and there may be further specific exceptions.

In general though: you don't get an action if you are unconscious, and Delaying is an action.

[Mirakk]

I tend to run things a little looser at times for fun's sake. Obviously dying isn't really a fantastic part of D&D to the new player, and we'd lost a player in the previous session as it was. I didn't want to start racking up a body count and having the players feel like I was just trying to kill them because I thought it was fun.

That said, I didn't realize stabilization occurred at the end of the round. I'd always ran it on their initiative count because I never saw an issue with it being handled that way (and frankly, even playing with several people who DM, I was never corrected on the matter). However, now that I know it is handled that way, I've informed my group of my error and plan to handle it accordingly in the future. The player in question is just happy to have his character and a good time was had by all.


Thanks for the insight, and it's much appreciated.