Crusader and Power Attack is worthless with our house rule?!?

[titans4ever]

I am running a 8th level crusader not bent on field control. My BA is 15/10 with my main weapon, a +1 dwarven waraxe. My DM and friends are asking why I don't use PA more but I did this math and realize it is not worth it and wish I had not taken it. Did I do the math right?

House rule that ruined Power Attack - swinging two-handed is a 1.5x modifier instead of a 2x modifier for damage
My BA= 15/10 and damage swinging two-handed is 1d10+10 (9 for str and +1 magical weapon). That would average 15.5 per hit.

Single swing options
If I only swing one time it is usually because I am using a maneuver so I want to hit to gain the extra effects of the maneuver be it healing, extra damage, etc. Why Power Attack?
If I can only swing one time for damage my swing of choice is divine surge that grants me an extra 8d8 damage (36 pts ave). I will average a whopping 51.5 (36+15.5) every time I hit without it? Why Power Attack?

Full attack options while attacking a monster with a 20 AC under 2 circumstances (just me and at times when they think I should be going big)

Normal
No power attack (15.5 ave damage)
I hit 75% on first swing for (.75x15.5) to average 11.6
I hit 50% on second swing (.5x15.5) to average 7.75
total = 19.35 ave damage

PA for 2 to gain 3 to damage (18.5 ave damage)
I hit 65% on first swing for (.65x18.5) = 12.03
I hit 40% on second swing for (.4x18.5) = 7.4
totals = 19.43 ave damage

PA for 4 to gain 6 to damage (21.5 ave damage)
I hit 55% on first swing for (.55x21.5) =11.8
I hit 30% on second swing for (.3x21.5) = 6.45
total = 18.25 ave damage

I lose an average of 1 point per round. if I swing big and only gain .1 with a small amount Why Power Attack?


Normal party boost is haste +1 to attack and say I have a +2 for steely resolve and furious conterstrike = +3 to hit and +2 damage boost

No Power attack (17.5 ave damage) (BA is now 18/13)
I hit 90% on first swing (.85x17.5) =15.75
I hit 90% on extra swing with haste = 15.75
I hit 65% on second swing (.65x17.5) = 11.38
total = 42.88

PA for 4 to gain 6 damage (23.5 ave damage) - only use the extra to hit as PA
I hit 70% on first swing (.7x23.5) = 16.45
I hit 70% on extra haste swing = 16.45
I hit 45% on second swing = 10.58
total 43.48

Pa for 8 to gain 12 damage (29.5 ave damage) - what my party thinks I should be doing
I hit 50% on first swing (.5x29.5) = 14.75
I hit 50% on extra haste swing = 14.75
I hit 25% on second swing (.25x29.5) = 7.38
total = 39.88

If I only PA with bonus to hit then I see I gain a little more advantage but If I swing big like the party wants I actually slow down damage output by 3 points.

Am I seeing this right? The only time PA is worth it is when I am gaining extra points to hit and even then it is only worth PA for around what my bonus to hit is and it is only .5 more than not. Considering I am using maneuvers over half the time, and I don't take damage every round, PA comes into play very little where it is actually useful for my guy and doesn't really help that much.

[KingSmitty]

so when you're level 20 and power attack for 20 you only gain 30 damage? No. Just no.

Idk why anyone would rule that way, unless they had a bad experience with a Frenzied Berserking Leap Attacking Battle Jumping Combat Brute Shock Trooper.

Since you're using maneuvers, and only use a standard attack, this is bad, but for a straight fighter? Crippling.

melee can't have nice things i guess. I wouldn't use it either, at that point I'd ask to retrain it and look for feats to maximize your to-hit

[Gwendol]

PA is useful under certain circumstances such as when under the effect of various enhancements of attack bonus, or other similar conditions. It is not usually universally applied.
Charging with a damage doubling weapon (or similar) could change the math in your favour.

[Greenish]

Yep, PA is only useful if your attack bonus is high (compared to the target), if you don't have another significant source of damage, if you can multiply your damage (mounted charge with a lance, crits), or, obviously, if you can avoid taking the attack penalty (Shock Trooper).

[Galen]

Under this house rule, Power Attack is indeed severely crippled. Talk to your DM to trade Power Attack for Stone Power. Works wonderfully with a Crusader.

[Ferronach]

Are you wielding the axe one or two handed? If one handed (unless I am mistaken?) then you would only get 1:1 not 1:1.5 Pwr attack with the axe so your PA attacks will do even less.
Currently running a build with a huge dwarven so someone pleas etell me I am wrong *evil grin towards my DM*

[titans4ever]

Are you wielding the axe one or two handed? If one handed (unless I am mistaken?) then you would only get 1:1 not 1:1.5 Pwr attack with the axe so your PA attacks will do even less.
Currently running a build with a huge dwarven so someone pleas etell me I am wrong *evil grin towards my DM*

I am swinging the axe two handed. My 1d10+10 damage is thus... STR modifier is +6 so two handed is +9 and +1 for the magical weapon. He has always had Power Attack as a 1.5 modifier as long as we have played. Not sure the reason but it severely weakens the feat, especially for my character. I have never run a melee character so never really looked into it that close until I wanted to crunch some numbers.

At least I feel a little more justified. I did pick up a keen +1 dwarven axe at the end of the adventure but I still don't think doubling my threat range is enough to upping my PA.

[Galen]

crunch some numbers
http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/

[Fouredged Sword]

You want to focus on your total bonuses, not your base attack bonus. Consider power attack the ability to convert to hit bonuses to damage bonuses. Flanking? You get 3 extra damage on all hits, almost like 1d6 sneak attack but works on everything and multiplies with crits. Caught them flat footed? Same deal, but potentially much higher numbers. Charging? well that +2 to hit +2 damage turns into +5 damage.

You are a crusader, so you have access to diamond mind. A lot of really good strikes to pair with power attack in there. You can treat your target as flat footed at level 1 (great for hitting that irritating high AC monk and getting enough damage to make it stick). Later you can make an attack as a touch attack, great for power attacking through all your target's armor, as you can face something like a dragon with a touch AC of 8, meaning if you trade away everything but what you need to hit on a 2.

People mess up with power attack because they don't follow the HD+3 rule. Your target is likely to have 13+your HD in defense, so you need to have HD+3 or higher to attack to be meaningful. Power attack lets you focus on boosting your attack bonus with the knowledge that you can still hit hard when faces with a tough easy to hit target.

[Zombimode]

You are a crusader, so you have access to diamond mind.

Crusaders have access to Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon and White Raven, but not to Diamond Mind.

[Fouredged Sword]

Crusaders have access to Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon and White Raven, but not to Diamond Mind.

You are correct, fail on my part. Still, look for ways to render your target flat footed or to change your attacks to touch attacks.

[titans4ever]

You want to focus on your total bonuses, not your base attack bonus. Consider power attack the ability to convert to hit bonuses to damage bonuses. Flanking? You get 3 extra damage on all hits, almost like 1d6 sneak attack but works on everything and multiplies with crits. Caught them flat footed? Same deal, but potentially much higher numbers. Charging? well that +2 to hit +2 damage turns into +5 damage.

You are a crusader, so you have access to diamond mind. A lot of really good strikes to pair with power attack in there. You can treat your target as flat footed at level 1 (great for hitting that irritating high AC monk and getting enough damage to make it stick). Later you can make an attack as a touch attack, great for power attacking through all your target's armor, as you can face something like a dragon with a touch AC of 8, meaning if you trade away everything but what you need to hit on a 2.

People mess up with power attack because they don't follow the HD+3 rule. Your target is likely to have 13+your HD in defense, so you need to have HD+3 or higher to attack to be meaningful. Power attack lets you focus on boosting your attack bonus with the knowledge that you can still hit hard when faces with a tough easy to hit target.

The 5 maneuvers I have rotating right now are:
Covering strike (boost) - take normal melee attack and if successful the one struck loses AoP for 3 rounds.
Lions Roar (boost) - everyone within 60' gain a +5 moral bonus till the end of my next turn if I drop someone below 0 hp
Divine Surge - 1 melee attack with extra 8d8 damage
Revitalizing strike - heal 3d6+ init level (max 10)
Crusader's strike - heal 1d6 + init level (max 5) the first one removed/swapped out if needing something else

That way I have 2 boosts and 3 maneuvers.
I use divine surge every chance I get.
I will rotate out crusader's strike for something else if we know what we might come up against and I have something more fitting for the encounter. Usually healing is most needed so I carry 2 healing maneuvers and am in the martial spirit stance.

I notice this last session we had I was hitting more often so my maneuvers were not so much if it happens but more of when it happens. Once I am at this level PA becomes more helpful. With haste, +2 from furious counterstrike, +2 flanking or charging and any type of bonus from cleric or bardic music I am now at 100+% to hit. I could then transfer that excess to pure damage.

We do have a cleric who occasionally casts prayer or bless and I will so be getting a cohort next level when I take the leadership feat that will have bardic music so there will be times in my examples that I could be over 100+% to hit more often than I am currently thinking and this will be a way to use the excess to hit to something useful. Maybe it won't be so bad as I am thinking, it will just be more situational than the party currently thinks it should be.

[Troacctid]

We do have a cleric who occasionally casts prayer or bless and I will so be getting a cohort next level when I take the leadership feat that will have bardic music so there will be times in my examples that I could be over 100+% to hit more often than I am currently thinking and this will be a way to use the excess to hit to something useful.

In that case, do keep in mind that inspire courage and bless are both morale bonuses and won't stack with each other (although prayer works fine).

[titans4ever]

In that case, do keep in mind that inspire courage and bless are both morale bonuses and won't stack with each other (although prayer works fine).

Instead of getting it once in a while we will be getting some sort of morale bonus during each encounter during the day soon. He will sing at a +2 morale bonus minimum with inspire courage. That will just add some extra times that I may actually be able to PA for some extra damage.

[Greenish]

For the record, your DM's houserule tilted the balance with PA, but the core point would still be that if you have another source of damage for your attacks, you probably won't be using PA that much unless your attack bonus is high enough you're not compromising your ability to hit too badly. It's not something you automatically use all the time.

[titans4ever]

For the record, your DM's houserule tilted the balance with PA, but the core point would still be that if you have another source of damage for your attacks, you probably won't be using PA that much unless your attack bonus is high enough you're not compromising your ability to hit too badly. It's not something you automatically use all the time.

I completely agree with you that it is much more situational for a crusader than the standard swing my big sword/axe fighter or barbarian. A crusaders first round is really dependent on what 3 maneuvers you draw on your turn as well.
I had to defend myself and why I wasn't power attacking all the time. The group comments at the end of our last session was that they would be power attacking for 2 or 4 to start with and then adjust accordingly. Since I am not a field control crusader I don't have the high DEX for combat reflexes so I have a low initiative. I tend to be around 3rd or later to act in our group so I can already get some idea of the AC we are facing before I go.

My choice of actions during combat.
1) divine surge
2) any other maneuver if needed
3) full attack (hopefully hasted and buffed)
4) partial attack with no maneuver - usually chucking a javelin when we need more than one turn to move closer before hand to hand combat starts.