[PF] 9 attacks at level 10 and I can't DQ it

[ErgoBibamus]

Hi all!

I have a player who has built a level 10 character whose full-round attack gives nine attacks for a combined minimum damage output of 107. He is a pretty good-natured player and hasn't ever abused this (his party has no idea how powerful he) but whenever I drop a big boss Dragon on them he always gives me this knowing smile as if to say, "You know, and I know, there's a decent chance I could one-shot this thing."

It seems wrong to me but the thing is - I can't find anything illegal with the build other than the switch from Barb to Sum to Wiz. He RP'd the Barbarian leaving his mountain, finding civilization and learning to read (skills points invested in Linguistics). Am I missing something?

Half-Orc
Barbarian 2
Summoner (Synthesist) 7
Wizard (Shapechange School Focus) 1

Str: 7
Dex: 7
Con: 7
Int: 15
Wis: 16
Cha: 20

Feats: Extra Evolution, Razortusk, Multiattack, Lunge, Resilient Eidolon
Special abilities: Beast Totem (lesser), Rage, Fused Eidolon, Fused Link, Summon Monster I-IV, Shielded Meld, Maker's Jump
School Powers: Battleshaping (Gore)
Evolutions: Biped(Slam), Limbs (arms), Slam, Limbs (legs), Tentacle, Tail, Tail Slap, Sting, Ability Increase STR (+4), Energy Attacks (Acid)

He could only do this 5 rounds a day, but when fused with the Eidolon, Raging, Hasted, Bull's Strength and using the swift Battleshaping (Gore), his abilities look like:

Str: 31
Dex: 15
Con: 20
Int: 15
Wis: 16
Cha: 20

and can make the following full-round attack:

Bite (Razortusk): +20, 1d4+11+1d6 acid
Claw x 2: +20 x2, 1d6+11+1d6 acid
Gore: +20, 1d6+11+1d6 acid
Slam x 2: +20 x2, 1d8+11+1d6 acid
Sting: +20, 1d4+11+1d6 acid
Tail Slap: +18, 1d6+11+1d6 acid
Tentacle: +18, 1d4+11+1d6 acid

[Dusk Eclipse]

Eidolons have a limit on the number of attacks they can have/make based on the summoner level, Synthethist does not remove this limitation; at level 7 he has a max of four attacks from his evolutions + the razortusk trait, the claws+slam thing is also iffy since you can't use both of them with the same limb, but the claws evolution mentions that it can be used on leg evolution, though I think the RAI is that you can't use claw with legs unless you have a quadruped form. Finally I think Sting and Tail slap are mutually exclusive unless you have two tails, though I may be wrong.

[Firest Kathon]

Dusk Eclipse is correct on the number of attacks, see the table here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons).

I'm pretty sure you should not be able to combine claws and slam on the same limb or tail slap and sting on the same tail, but I was not able to dig up a hard rule on this. However, the slam evolution only gives a single slam attack, not two (like claws would give). Tails Slap and Tentacle are secondary attacks and only get 1/2 Str bonus to damage.

Since the gore from razortusk does not count against the natural attacks of the eidolon, he would have five attacks. Also, the energy attacks does not apply to the gore, since it is not an eidolon attack.

The barbarian's rage raises your strength, but the Synthesist Summoner uses the Eidolon's strength, which is not influenced by the rage.

Finally, the dragon can fly, so it would never allow this guy a full attack :smallamused:

[ErgoBibamus]

Dusk Eclipse is correct on the number of attacks, see the table here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons).

I'm pretty sure you should not be able to combine claws and slam on the same limb or tail slap and sting on the same tail, but I was not able to dig up a hard rule on this. However, the slam evolution only gives a single slam attack, not two (like claws would give). Tails Slap and Tentacle are secondary attacks and only get 1/2 Str bonus to damage.

Since the gore from razortusk does not count against the natural attacks of the eidolon, he would have five attacks. Also, the energy attacks does not apply to the gore, since it is not an eidolon attack.

The barbarian's rage raises your strength, but the Synthesist Summoner uses the Eidolon's strength, which is not influenced by the rage.

Finally, the dragon can fly, so it would never allow this guy a full attack :smallamused:

Thank you both!

The key limitation here does seem to be the number of limbs capable of making attacks and I've (sort of) confirmed that rereading page 182 of the Core Rulebook: "You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high
base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks)." in combination with, "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack."

That said, I do wish the rules were a bit clearer on that.

Interesting point about Rage not affecting the Eidolon's strength, though that implies that Bull's Strength would also not enhance the Eidolon's strength. This is a tricky point and the program we're using for builds (Hero Lab) allows both.

I'll try to find some Paizo errata on what does and does not pump a Syth's physical abilities.

[the clumsy bard]

I'd argue that the rage does stack.

Rage and I quote "While in rage, a barbarian gains a +4 morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves."

Now a morale bonus has nothing to do with the user's original form.

"A morale bonus represents the effects of greater hope, courage, and determination (or hopelessness, cowardice, and despair in the case of a morale penalty). Multiple morale bonuses on the same character do not stack. Only the highest morale bonus applies. Non-intelligent creatures (creatures with an Intelligence of 0 or no Intelligence at all) cannot benefit from morale bonuses."

Therefore how would this not effect the character even in another form?

In terms of bull's strength I would rule he would have to cast on himself after being in the eidolon form.

[the clumsy bard]

Also of note:

from the pfsrd:

Max. Attacks

This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.

So technically speaking he's allowed only 4 natural attacks. His build is technically illegal as it clearly states you cannot take evolutions that grant additional attacks over the max given for the summoner's level.

[Earthwalker]

I'd argue that the rage does stack.

Rage and I quote "While in rage, a barbarian gains a +4 morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves."

Now a morale bonus has nothing to do with the user's original form.

"A morale bonus represents the effects of greater hope, courage, and determination (or hopelessness, cowardice, and despair in the case of a morale penalty). Multiple morale bonuses on the same character do not stack. Only the highest morale bonus applies. Non-intelligent creatures (creatures with an Intelligence of 0 or no Intelligence at all) cannot benefit from morale bonuses."

Therefore how would this not effect the character even in another form?

In terms of bull's strength I would rule he would have to cast on himself after being in the eidolon form.

Will what you are saying is true. If I was GMing I would rule that the Rage does indeed work. It takes the Wizarians strength from 7 to 11. Then it uses which stat is higher either the wizardians 11 strength or the Edlions 27.

[the clumsy bard]

Will what you are saying is true. If I was GMing I would rule that the Rage does indeed work. It takes the Wizarians strength from 7 to 11. Then it uses which stat is higher either the wizardians 11 strength or the Edlions 27.

Using what you said... well how does that work as a morale bonus?

Wouldn't that effectively mean the barbarian rage would end if you assumed eidolon form or would just not work while in eidolon form?

[Earthwalker]

Using what you said... well how does that work as a morale bonus?

Wouldn't that effectively mean the barbarian rage would end if you assumed eidolon form or would just not work while in eidolon form?

I was heading towards making it not work while in Synth form. So he would not get the rage bonus while in synth form only when out of it. I am certainly not saying this is what the rules say, more this is what I would rule.

[the clumsy bard]

That's fair.

Rules wise I think they stack, but honestly from a personal view point things like this via synthesist are why I am not a huge fan of the class archetype.

Not from a broken stand point.

It just leads to very complicated rules based questions.

Which on another note is probably why it is not allowed in pathfinder society play. Well that and they claim it doesn't fit their idea of Golarion, but I would probably think no synthesists in society play = less stoppage of play to confirm rules arguments etc.

[icefractal]

When fused, you're not a separate entity from the Eidolon, however. You are a single creature that has your skills/feats/class features, some stats based on the Eidolon chart/evolutions, and some stats based on your original form.

So the idea of Rage increasing the "Strength of 7" doesn't make sense, because when you are merged there is no such creature that possesses a Strength of 7. You're not a guy inside a mech-suit, you're yourself with different stats. Also, the Eidolon does not exist as a separate creature either, so you're not using rage to increase "its" Strength, you're using it to increase your Strength. Which is whatever the chart/evolutions add up to.

That said, this guy does have too many attacks. The bite and gore are from non-Synthesist origins, so he should have those plus four others - not seven others.

[Gullintanni]

When fused, you're not a separate entity from the Eidolon, however. You are a single creature that has your skills/feats/class features, some stats based on the Eidolon chart/evolutions, and some stats based on your original form.

So the idea of Rage increasing the "Strength of 7" doesn't make sense, because when you are merged there is no such creature that possesses a Strength of 7. You're not a guy inside a mech-suit, you're yourself with different stats. Also, the Eidolon does not exist as a separate creature either, so you're not using rage to increase "its" Strength, you're using it to increase your Strength. Which is whatever the chart/evolutions add up to.


My understanding is that when a player is the subject of any number of different effects, the player may apply them in the order most beneficial to them. Subsequently, were the player in question to Rage, they would raise their strength from 7 to 11. Fusing with their Eidolon would then raise the player's strength again; however, because the Rage effect has not yet ended, the player is within their rights to apply the effects of Rage to their new stats, as that is the most beneficial application of effects.

[icefractal]

And also, in general, you'd be fused prior to raging, since it takes (IIRC) a minute and its generally something you want up all the time when adventuring.

[Elfkin_King]

This thread just convinced me that I should have tried a summoner at some point... and they aren't the "fairy summoning fruit baskets" I thought they were. O.O (Only because the person who played them most in the group portrayed it that way to me when I was first introduced to PF... He played a witch/summoner) and they officially terrify me.

[Extra Anchovies]

This thread just convinced me that I should have tried a summoner at some point... and they aren't the "fairy summoning fruit baskets" I thought they were. O.O (Only because the person who played them most in the group portrayed it that way to me when I was first introduced to PF... He played a witch/summoner) and they officially terrify me.

Yeah, Synthesist seems pretty frickin' cool as a beatstick-type. I haven't played PF yet, but once I get a fairly good handle on the system, I'll be rolling up one of those. I mean, come on. You get to be this guy:

https://d.gr-assets.com/books/1386922236l/47686.jpg
Incidentally, I'm not sure which of the ToM classes/PrCs that guy is supposed to be, since there isn't really any way to replicate what he does using ToM material. He looks more like an Incarnum user than anything else.

[Elfkin_King]

Yeah, Synthesist seems pretty frickin' cool as a beatstick-type. I haven't played PF yet, but once I get a fairly good handle on the system, I'll be rolling up one of those. I mean, come on. You get to be this guy:

https://d.gr-assets.com/books/1386922236l/47686.jpgIncidentally, I'm not sure which of the ToM classes/PrCs that guy is supposed to be, since there isn't really any way to replicate what he does using ToM material. He looks more like an Incarnum user than anything else.

For the most part, it's just like DnD 3.x, you get feats every odd level instead of every 3, and skills = your level, class skills get a +3 bonus for having ranks. That's pretty much it, as far as the biggest changes. That and archetypes, but that's just changing the class features IF you decided to take an archetype, and you can take more than one as long as they don't replace the same ability. (say, the Monks Stunning fist). If there is anything else of major note, I can't think of it.

[ErgoBibamus]

Confirmed the things that make this build illegal are that you cannot have multiple natural attacks from the same limb, and while in Fused Eidolon form there is a hard limit on the maximum number of natural attacks you can make during a full-round attack, regardless of how many you theoretically are capable of.

Interestingly, in digging through these rules I discovered something that seems even more ridiculous.

There doesn't seem to be an upper limit on the number of "weapon" attacks you can make if, for example, you use evolution points to add several iterations of the Limbs(Arms) evolution (which allows multiple selections) and give each one a weapon you can wield. Furthermore, Haste seems to grant an extra attack "per weapon" when making a full-round attack...

Example:

He adjusts his from to be Biped (hooves), and evolutions to be Flight(Wings), Wing Buffet, Limbs (arms) x 3, Strength +2. He replaces a Barbarian level and the Wizard level with a two-level dip in Ranger for Two-Weapon Fighting. He buys a pack of six short-swords at a volume discount. When Hasted and Raging, his full-round attack looks something like:

Main hand: Shortsword, +18/+18/+13, 1d6+10
2nd hand: Shortsword, +18/+18, 1d6+5
3rd hand: Shortsword, +18/+18, 1d6+5
4th hand: Shortsword, +18/+18, 1d6+5
5th hand: Shortsword, +18/+18, 1d6+5
6th hand: Shortsword, +18/+18, 1d6+5
Hooves x2: +17, 1d4+4
Wings x2: +17, 1d4+4

For something like 17 attacks.

I may just institute some house rules around this archetype to keep things balanced, or keep the above build in my back pocket if I ever need to prove a point about too much munchkining getting in the way of a fun gaming experience.

[Nihilarian]

This thread just convinced me that I should have tried a summoner at some point... and they aren't the "fairy summoning fruit baskets" I thought they were. O.O (Only because the person who played them most in the group portrayed it that way to me when I was first introduced to PF... He played a witch/summoner) and they officially terrify me.Summoners are kinda like Druids for those on a diet. They're pretty strong!

[Elfkin_King]

Confirmed the things that make this build illegal are that you cannot have multiple natural attacks from the same limb, and while in Fused Eidolon form there is a hard limit on the maximum number of natural attacks you can make during a full-round attack, regardless of how many you theoretically are capable of.

Interestingly, in digging through these rules I discovered something that seems even more ridiculous.

There doesn't seem to be an upper limit on the number of "weapon" attacks you can make if, for example, you use evolution points to add several iterations of the Limbs(Arms) evolution (which allows multiple selections) and give each one a weapon you can wield. Furthermore, Haste seems to grant an extra attack "per weapon" when making a full-round attack...

Example:

He adjusts his from to be Biped (hooves), and evolutions to be Flight(Wings), Wing Buffet, Limbs (arms) x 3, Strength +2. He replaces a Barbarian level and the Wizard level with a two-level dip in Ranger for Two-Weapon Fighting. He buys a pack of six short-swords at a volume discount. When Hasted and Raging, his full-round attack looks something like:

Main hand: Shortsword, +18/+18/+13, 1d6+10
2nd hand: Shortsword, +18/+18, 1d6+5
3rd hand: Shortsword, +18/+18, 1d6+5
4th hand: Shortsword, +18/+18, 1d6+5
5th hand: Shortsword, +18/+18, 1d6+5
6th hand: Shortsword, +18/+18, 1d6+5
Hooves x2: +17, 1d4+4
Wings x2: +17, 1d4+4

For something like 17 attacks.

I may just institute some house rules around this archetype to keep things balanced, or keep the above build in my back pocket if I ever need to prove a point about too much munchkining getting in the way of a fun gaming experience.

Just for the sake of abuse, how would those extra limbs function with Improved TWF and Greater TWF?

[kellbyb]

Finally, the dragon can fly, so it would never allow this guy a full attack :smallamused:

I'd say this is the most important piece of advice. You don't have to nerf him as long as you play smart.

[Troacctid]

Just for the sake of abuse, how would those extra limbs function with Improved TWF and Greater TWF?

They would use Multiweapon Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/multiweapon-fighting-combat) instead.

[grarrrg]

Rules and such:
ONE Natural Attack per limb (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9n88), Slam uses two limbs, thus no Claws+Slam with the same arm(s), and no Slap/Sting with just one Tail. Gore+Bite is more iffy, but still probably not allowed.

Natural Attacks NOT from the Eidolon STILL count towards the Natural Attack cap (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obe).

You may only benefit from _one_ Haste/Of-Speed effect per round. As per the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qpr) and the spell itself (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/haste) (bolded for emphasis):
"When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon."

As for Rage, that works just fine: "Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature." "While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor."
This FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9ob9) and the one right after it point towards Rage working perfectly fine (yes the second FAQ deals with penalties, but it should hold true for bonuses as well).
There's also the fact that the Rage spell would work just fine on an Eidolon, and giving your Eidolon a Belt of STR would work fine, and ...

As for just giving an Eidolon all arms and giving it Manufactured weapons, that works perfectly fine, so long as you can afford however many weapons you need. And you can still make any valid Natural Attacks at the same time, with penalties (only 1/2 STR to damage and -5 to hit, only -2 to hit with Multiattack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/multiattack-combat) feat).


Just for the sake of abuse, how would those extra limbs function with Improved TWF and Greater TWF?

*shurg*
Depends on what angle you want to approach it.
Creatures with 3+ arms replace the Two Weapon Fighting feat with Multiweapon Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/multiweapon-fighting-combat) feat instead, so you could argue that since you don't have "Two Weapon Fighting" you don't qualify for Imp. TWF.
Counter argument is that "replace" means "completely replace for all purposes", so you could still qualify for Imp TWF.
The "does not actually count as" argument is semi-supported by the fact that 3.5 saw fit to make _actual_ Imp Multiweapon Fighting and Greater version feats, meaning that the 'simple' Imp TWF only gives you _one_ attack.

Also, the 'exact' wording used in Imp TWF and Greater TWF implies they only work for _one_ Off-Hand weapon.

[Elfkin_King]

Rules and such:
ONE Natural Attack per limb (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9n88), Slam uses two limbs, thus no Claws+Slam with the same arm(s), and no Slap/Sting with just one Tail. Gore+Bite is more iffy, but still probably not allowed.

Natural Attacks NOT from the Eidolon STILL count towards the Natural Attack cap (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obe).

You may only benefit from _one_ Haste/Of-Speed effect per round. As per the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qpr) and the spell itself (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/haste) (bolded for emphasis):
"When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon."

As for Rage, that works just fine: "Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature." "While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor."
This FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9ob9) and the one right after it point towards Rage working perfectly fine (yes the second FAQ deals with penalties, but it should hold true for bonuses as well).
There's also the fact that the Rage spell would work just fine on an Eidolon, and giving your Eidolon a Belt of STR would work fine, and ...

As for just giving an Eidolon all arms and giving it Manufactured weapons, that works perfectly fine, so long as you can afford however many weapons you need. And you can still make any valid Natural Attacks at the same time, with penalties (only 1/2 STR to damage and -5 to hit, only -2 to hit with Multiattack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/multiattack-combat) feat).



*shurg*
Depends on what angle you want to approach it.
Creatures with 3+ arms replace the Two Weapon Fighting feat with Multiweapon Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/multiweapon-fighting-combat) feat instead, so you could argue that since you don't have "Two Weapon Fighting" you don't qualify for Imp. TWF.
Counter argument is that "replace" means "completely replace for all purposes", so you could still qualify for Imp TWF.
The "does not actually count as" argument is semi-supported by the fact that 3.5 saw fit to make _actual_ Imp Multiweapon Fighting and Greater version feats, meaning that the 'simple' Imp TWF only gives you _one_ attack.

Also, the 'exact' wording used in Imp TWF and Greater TWF implies they only work for _one_ Off-Hand weapon.

Again, for the sake of playing the Devils Advocate here, could you -- lets say it's the 4 armed Synthesist+Eidolon-- get Improved TWF and Greater TWF for EACH off-hand?

"Improved TWF 1,2, 3"?

[Extra Anchovies]

Again, for the sake of playing the Devils Advocate here, could you -- lets say it's the 4 armed Synthesist+Eidolon-- get Improved TWF and Greater TWF for EACH off-hand?

"Improved TWF 1,2, 3"?

No. If you want to make weapon attacks with more than two limbs, you're taking the Multiweapon Fighting chain. So no TWF, but Improved Multiweapon Fighting and Greater MWF both exist, and each give another attack to all off-hands. The Hecatoncheires Eidolon is indeed one of the more munchinky possible ways to go about it. EWP (Aklys) is probably your best option, as they are light weapons that can also be thrown. (You'll have to take a feat for weapon proficiency anyways, so you might as well go exotic)

Alternately, for two feats you can do EWP (Whip) and EWP (Scorpion Whip) for a light reach weapon.

[grarrrg]

Improved Multiweapon Fighting and Greater MWF both exist

Those feats do not currently exist in PF (to my knowledge).


Again, for the sake of playing the Devils Advocate here, could you -- lets say it's the 4 armed Synthesist+Eidolon-- get Improved TWF and Greater TWF for EACH off-hand?

And again:

Also, the 'exact' wording used in Imp TWF and Greater TWF implies they only work for _one_ Off-Hand weapon.

So no. You can try running it past your DM though, they might allow it or a version of Imp-Multiweapon.
Unless you are trying to take ITWF multiple times, which is not valid as it does not have a "may take multiple times" clause.

[Psyren]

Those feats do not currently exist in PF (to my knowledge).

JJ ruled that ITWF and GTWF work with MWF (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ri6o?Kasathas-and-Improved-TwoWeapon-Fighting#4), but each one only gives you a single extra attack with one of your offhands, rather than one per limb. So "IMWF" would give you a total of 5 attacks, not 8.