Help with ideas for building a Paladin of Honour for levels 4-14

[sage20500]

A friend of mine is getting ready to start his first 3.5 game for a Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil run, and he's looking into playing a Paladin as his first character. I've never actually messed with any of the divine classes before so I'm trying to figure out how to help him as best as I can.

Personality wise, he's going to be basing his character off of Sanya from The Dresden Files series,
"Sanya is gruff, bluff, and cheerful and takes everything in stride. Hell, he got his sword from the archangel Michael and is still an agnostic. He does what he does not out of faith or devotion to temporal or divine law, but because he sees the horrors set against the world and realizes that someone has to make terrible sacrifices so that everyone else doesn't have to suffer the depredations of supernatural forces. Where Michael believes that everything will end up for the best our of a near Panglossian belief in providence, Sanya just has a wellspring of hope that probably derives from the fact that he thinks he should have died years ago—and he probably did things to deserve it—and is living a life with purpose and with friends and allies. Thus he carries Esperacchius, the sword of hope." (Quoted from Jeff the Green in the Good is not nice thread)

Deity wise at the moment he's really liking the idea of being a paladin of helm, since Helm is one of the most likely deities I think wouldn't mind having someone that is considered agnostic to be one of his champions so long as they're doing their best to protect and defend. Though since the module takes place in Greyhawk, and Helm is a forgoten realms deity, unless the DM allows him to still use Helm, my friend is currently looking at Pelor, Zodal, and Nola as possible backups.

For stats he rolled a 16 Str, 13 Dex, 14 Con, 9 Int, 18 Wis, and 16 Cha. House rules for this campaign are that characters gain a new feat at every even level, and when ever we gain an ability score increase, we can add +1 to two stats. Characters start at level 4 and we're not guaranteed to continue past 14, so the goal is for him to reach the most fun he can have with the build by 11-13 or 14.

Party wise, he'll be in a group that is a Neutral/Chaotic good Warforged Wildshaping Variant Ranger, a chaotic good rogue who is seeking redemption by following the teachings of St. Cuthsberd, a chaotic good Sorcerer, and a Chaotic Neutral Battledancer Barbarian/Brawler(The character is a mixture of classes that focuses on punching things into unconsciousness.)

At the moment the only idea's I've had so far to suggest for him was possibly taking the 1st level ACF for Vigilant Eye of Helm, and for possible PRC's looking at maybe doing either Gray Guard, Fist of Raziel, or the more generic Kensai as possible options, and feat wise the only feats I've been thinking of were Draconic Aura is he wanted to use Silver Brow Human as his race, Celestial Steed, and any of the more generic fighting feats.

Also for a Paladin is it usually better to go with a two hander or sword and shield?

Any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[Troacctid]

Helm's favored weapon is the bastard sword.

Battle Blessing (from Complete Champion) is a must-have feat for Paladins. It quickens your Paladin spells. All of them. For free. So yeah, you'll want that.

[T.G. Oskar]

Superb stats, but Wisdom is too high for what's really needed. A Wisdom of 14 is more than enough. However, it was rolled, so chances are that the 18 can't be changed to Strength or Charisma, which would make them more useful. If your friend could shift stats, you could end up with Str or Cha 18, put the two 16s on the other stat and Constitution, keep your Dex at 13, your Wisdom at 14 and Int keeps the lowest.

Style-wise, a 2-hander is usually better for any character, particularly one that goes for Power Attack (for the increased damage). A 2-hander only needs Power Attack to work, and maybe Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior) to keep attack bonus intact, so it'll allow you great access to feats. Sword & Board requires too many feats to be useful, though you have leeway on that (you need Imp. Shield Bash, Agile Shield Fighter [PHB II] to use the shield offensively, and maybe Shield Ward for the bonus to touch AC and various special attacks). That said, you should ask what your friend envisions on the character.

The extra feats should help...let's see, between 1-14, you should have 7 feats, compared to the 5 feats you normally get (possibly 8 if you get a 1st level feat as well). If you go 2-hander, you can probably go PA and Shock Trooper, leaving you with 5-6 feats; Sword & Board would require 4 feats to work, as you need ISB, Agile SF, SW and Shield Specialization as the pre-req for both of them), so that leaves you 4 feats to play with. Draconic Aura depends on how your DM rules it; if the Vigor aura is allowed, go for it; otherwise, it's not that great really, since most of the options are so-so (I think Senses is the second best because of the Initiative bonus). So you and your friend have roughly 3 feats to play with, judging by the choice of playstile playstyle. Feat-wise, I'd probably recommend the Combat Form feats (you have the Wisdom to play with them; if you want to play SnB you need the Player's Handbook II, which contains all the feats): Combat Vigor is superb, because you get permanent fast healing which is actually good, and you need only 3 Combat Form feats (the prerequisite feat counts as one) to get the secondary benefit; Combat Awareness with Blind-Fight nets you blindsense, though that might not be as useful if you get See Invisibility via Vigilant Eye of Helm. If your friend goes Fist of Raziel, you'll need to spend one of its remaining feats on Servant of the Heavens, making either Draconic Aura or the Combat Form line somewhat unattractive; that said, if you have access to Complete Champion and go FoR, you should by all means get Awesome Smite, as your friend's character should get a fairly good amount of smites per day. That also goes by heavily recommending Battle Blessing, since your friend probably want to have its Paladin spells accessible at all times.

As for the PrCs...is your friend interested heavily in spellcasting? Gray Guard has a degree of thematic fit, but Sanya seems like the kind of guy who's not really a Gray Guard, but a Knight in Sour Armor (warning: it's a TV Tropes' concept, which might suck your life and your time; that said, look for what it means). Fist of Raziel is mostly focused on smiting, but it also has the best spellcasting, whereas Gray Guard sacrifices some spellcasting for ease on the Code and blurring the lines in the cause of action. Personally, I'd incline for Fist of Raziel because it's very good, but it does imply dropping some of the character's agnosticism (OTOH, it'd be the equivalent of being a Knight of the Cross, since you're being sponsored by one of the Big Good guys in the Multiverse almost directly). Your friend need to save one or two feat slots to enter (moreso in Fist of Raziel), so unless your friend makes a definite choice, I can't say much.

That said, ACF-wise, I wouldn't go too deep with the mount; it can be a hassle, and if you PrC, the mount will end up being weak. Divine Spirit (Dungeonscape) or Charging Smite (PHB II) are good ways to replace it, and so does Underdark Hunter (Complete Champion); of those, the Charging Smite ACF works the best, as it further increases your friend's smite damage and allows moving and deploying all benefits from Fist of Raziel or Awesome Smite (if you get them). The 1st level of Vigilant Eye of Helm is good, and I would vouch for the second, but consider carefully if the third is worth your time; the equivalent of Awesome Blow is pretty good, but you lose Turn Undead; on the other hand, if you don't use Divine feats that much, then it's a fair trade. If your friend thinks of getting Divine Might for damage, or Divine Shield for a S&B build, then don't trade it away; otherwise, it's a decent trade-off.

Since, IIRC, both Gray Guard and FoR require 5th level (because of the BAB/skill requirements), it's most likely that your friend will reach up to 9th level if accessed in the earliest way possible and thus miss on the capstones and some spellcasting ability. Don't think too much of Kensai; while it's a free spell, it goes with the sacrifice of spellcasting ability (which is actually good, even if your friend will probably reach up to 3rd level spells only) and the potential of not reaching Power Surge, which is the real benefit of Kensai besides the free enchantments (Ancestral Relic from Book of Exalted Deeds does the same for the Paladin at the cost of a mere feat, so it's not exactly special).

So yeah: try to speak with your friend and get some more ideas. If you need some convincing concepts, let your friend know that it'd be good to decide whether to incline for better offense (two-hander) or better defense at the cost of a bunch of offense (sword & board), how important is the mount in the build (most likely none, and being inside a temple even less), if the character wants to focus on the dour outlook on life and using the weapons of its enemies against them (Gray Guard) or to be the relentless blade against evil while sponsored by a being considered by others as divine (Fist of Raziel), and also how important spellcasting might be. Once that's set, you'll probably have a better idea on how to guide your friend's character's development for the most part. Even with the bunch of feats, you won't need more than 3 or 4 feats for the "fighting style", Draconic Aura isn't so great unless the Vigor aura can be applied (if not, you can go full Human and skip the Draconic aspect), Battle Blessing should be a must-have if your friend values its spellcasting, and feats like Awesome Smite and the Combat Form line are pretty nice. Finally, ask your friend (and yourself) if the character would benefit from various Divine feats or else replace it entirely with a pretty decent feat.

Now, if you want a specific build that could work...
Two-hander, Fist of Raziel by 6th level. Get Power Attack and Servant of the Heavens to qualify. Replace the mount with Charging Smite and get the Awesome Smite feat. That should make your smites very effective.

Get Battle Blessing for better spellcasting, and Shock Trooper for when you need to make a Heedless Charge. That way, your get twice your BAB to damage plus twice your level (from the smite) without losing attack bonus (and with your friend's Charisma modifier to attack rolls), plus Awesome Smite (the feat and the class feature) and the bonuses from Fist of Raziel (extra damage and so forth).

That makes for a simple, yet effective build. However, that depends mostly on whether the character minds or not to have a divine being sponsoring it, even if said being doesn't like worship of any kind.

[Gwendol]

TG Oskar has sound advice. I would recommend doing something useful with Turn Undead as well, using Divine feats such as Divine Might or Divine Vigor.
The mystic fire knight sub levels are not bad (greater dispel magic at 6th).

[sage20500]

Ok so update from my friend after I showed him all the stuff you guys suggested (thanks so much by the way for the ideas!).

For his character, he really wants to focus on Lay on Hands the most with a focus on Smite after that, and he's not that into the idea of being able to cast a lot of spells.

Between Fist of Raziel and Grey Guard, he's favoring Grey Guard a lot more because it counts for towards Paladin levels of lay on hands, and it gives him more options with how to use Lay on Hands as well if he really needed to. He also likes the fact that it gives him some more options with being able to smite things that might show up that are not necessarily evil.

Fighting style wise, he was originally only really wanting to have a shield for just in case situations while sticking to using his trusty bastard sword, after I pointed out how ac worked early on in the game as well as how later on he could still end up getting a shield that can be a magic floating shield that would allow him to be a two hander anyway, so he's going for the two handed style idea now.

A quick question regarding a floating shield, my character is going to be grabbing the leadership feat at level 6, (My base charisma right now is 23) and the cohort I'm picking up will be a chaotic neutral artificer that is going to be solely focused on cranking out magic items. With the proper feats being taken to reduce experience and money cost, what would possibly be the earliest level I could possibly expect to be able to get him a floating shield? (At least 3 characters in our party of 5 are not wearing armor, another two are not using any weapons since one is a VoP wildshaper while the other is a Spellcaster)

Race wise, after showing him the different auras that were available, he's going with the Silverbrow Human in order to make good use of having a draconic aura of vigor, and he possibly later on might want to take the draconic aura feat again so he can then grab double aura for the resistance aura. (Almost all of our front liners have a pretty good dexterity, and the party's spellcaster wants to focus on fire damage, so he feels that having up to 15 fire resistance could very beneficial for anyone on the front line that doesn't have the evasion feature when ever the Spellcaster starts fireballing.)

When it comes to turn undead, none of us have played through the temple of elemental evil module before, but from the sound of whats going to be happening, we're pretty confident that we won't be facing very many undead, or at least enough to actually warrant keeping the turn undead class feature, what are some good alternatives to turn undead that he could look into?

Mount wise, instead of going with the paladin mount he's just going to buy a standard warhorse, so are there any acf's for mount that could be nice?

Finally for feats, since he's pretty much set with going two handed bastard sword, the only feats we have down that he'll be taking are Battle Blessing, Draconic Aura, Power Attack, and Awesome Smite. For someone who wants to just focus on his Lay on Hands, Smiting, and normal ability to fight after, what are some other good feats we can use to fill in his last 4- 5 open feat slots.

[Curbstomp]

What Gwendol said: Divine feats such as Divine Might or Divine Vigor.

Also, Extra Smite

[Troacctid]

For Turn Undead, snag a Domain feat from Complete Champion, such as Law Devotion, Animal Devotion, or Earth Devotion. You can spend turning attempts to gain additional daily uses of them.

[T.G. Oskar]

With the proper feats being taken to reduce experience and money cost, what would possibly be the earliest level I could possibly expect to be able to get him a floating shield? (At least 3 characters in our party of 5 are not wearing armor, another two are not using any weapons since one is a VoP wildshaper while the other is a Spellcaster)

Probably 11th level.

The Artificer has the ability to make magic items by treating its actual caster level as if it were 3 higher. Animated Shields require having a Caster Level of 12th, so your Artificer could make it by 9th level. However, your cohort must remain 2 levels below you, so your Artificer will be 9th level most likely by the time you get to 11th.

The limiting factor is the Caster Level, not the money. By the time you get to that level, most likely you'll get the funds for it (a base of 9,000 gp + shield cost for the Animated Shield, reduced to 75% because of the feats).


When it comes to turn undead, none of us have played through the temple of elemental evil module before, but from the sound of whats going to be happening, we're pretty confident that we won't be facing very many undead, or at least enough to actually warrant keeping the turn undead class feature, what are some good alternatives to turn undead that he could look into?

As mentioned by many (and I made a slight mention as well), your friend could afford one or two Divine feats and use Turn Undead in that regard. Turn Undead won't be that powerful, so might as well spend it on feats. Divine Might is good as it adds Charisma to your friend's damage rolls. If you can snag it, the version of Sacred Healing from Complete Divine is a godsend as it gives you and your allies another form of fast healing; otherwise, the aura of Vigor is fair.

If you won't get Divine feats, the 4th level of Vigilant Eye of Helm should suffice, as the Awesome Blow effect is pretty cool.


Mount wise, instead of going with the paladin mount he's just going to buy a standard warhorse, so are there any acf's for mount that could be nice?

Charging Smite. It's the only one that will officially progress, so might as well replace it with this ACF. Divine Spirit (from Dungeonscape) is pretty good too, although you'll probably have access to the first spirit; that said, it's a form of triplicating your Lay on Hands as the healing is based on your LoH healing.


Finally for feats, since he's pretty much set with going two handed bastard sword, the only feats we have down that he'll be taking are Battle Blessing, Draconic Aura, Power Attack, and Awesome Smite. For someone who wants to just focus on his Lay on Hands, Smiting, and normal ability to fight after, what are some other good feats we can use to fill in his last 4- 5 open feat slots.

You already mentioned Double Draconic Aura, so let's see what other 4 feats you could get.

Shock Trooper is a natural companion for Power Attack, specifically because of Heedless Charge, which allows your friend to place your penalties to your AC rather than to your BAB when making a charge. This allows your friend to make a single, yet devastating attack every round. With Charging Smite, that means your friend could easily deal a huge amount of damage without the trouble of losing attack bonus. Note that this also means getting Improved Bull Rush, so that's 2 feats you must spend upon.

As mentioned above, Divine Might is a good choice for adding some damage potential.

If your friend wants to make decent use of Lay on Hands, the Hands of a Healer feat is fairly decent. It's much better if you replace the mount for Divine Spirit, because it also applies to the healing by the first spirit. Make sure to combine this feat with an Unicorn Pendant (Magic Item Compendium) for a huge healing pool.

--

On a bit more: Gray Guard sacrifices a lot of spellcasting potential, just so you know. Your friend will end up, by 14th level, with 8th level Paladin spellcasting, enough to get 2nd level spells. Thus, don't trust in having a lot of spellcasting ability; Battle Blessing might help on getting, say, Divine Favor online, but for the most part that massive hit to spellcasting will hurt you on the long run. On the other hand, if your friend is gonna focus on Lay on Hands, most likely you won't have troubles with the class at all. Keep a wand of Rhino's Rush handy, because your friend will most likely rely on charging every single time (another point for Charging Smite).

[Gwendol]

+1 to Divine Spirit. The healing spirit LoH's by itself, thus freeing the Paladin to keep laying down the smite while helping downed teammates.
I'd actually recommend sticking with paladin to avoid giving up spellcasting.

[Val666]

Tell your friend to check this prestige: badass (http://dndtools.eu/classes/hellreaver/)
It can heal, deal damage and it have cool class features e.e Also easy requirements for a Paladin.
Use the first level of Holy Judge substitution levels. This adds Knowledge the Planes to class skills but trades Smite Evil for Favored Enemy (devils). Lastly, this options are very good just if you facing devils/evil outsiders frecuently. You can even trade your special mount for something else.