Now that Roy deserves...

[Bluelantern]

...be congratulate and aplaused as a hero for "saving" Elan no ones do any thread, but when his was taking down a dangerous enemy everyones was against him. U.U

*sorry the bad english in this post*

[Daniel_Q]

But he was ever so 'mean' to miko don'tcha know?
See, it's alright to beat someone up, but you must do it without saying mean things to them! you might hurt thier feelings! Oh Noes!

[Eriol]

OT: the OP's avatar is somewhat disturbing.

[Baalzebub]

All Hail Fearless Leader Roy

[Tolkien_Freak]

Roy's the leader of the party, so why is no one ever on his side? (Well, almost never.) He just saved Elan's butt but all everyone else can do is say he likes Elan. He never gets a good amount of credit.

[stenver]

Whats up with this "Leader of the party"? Absolutely none of the D&D ive been, theres a leader. Usually everyones out for himself and often the party breaks into 2 or 3, becouse we always have alot of fights between us(no mather what DM(s) try)

[kpenguin]

Whats up with this "Leader of the party"? Absolutely none of the D&D ive been, theres a leader. Usually everyones out for himself and often the party breaks into 2 or 3, becouse we always have alot of fights between us(no mather what DM(s) try)
I always have leader in the party. Whether its myself, a DM character, or just the kid whose really into the game, we always have someone who give orders and makes sure our party gets through the campaign in one place. It might be different in other games, though.

[MReav]

Go Roy, way to show everyone you're the leader not just because that's your assigned literary character role.

[Oxymoron]

Horay for Roy! He totally saved Elans ass (pun intended). I agree, too few people on this forum likes Roy and acknowledgeses his heroic deeds, only his flaws.

[JetTheOne]

Roy's the leader of the party, so why is no one ever on his side? (Well, almost never.) He just saved Elan's butt but all everyone else can do is say he likes Elan. He never gets a good amount of credit.

Roy is only acting as protecting his party (investments), from what I've gathered he is responsible for putting The Order together... so if a party member of his dies, not only will he be held responsible and other people won't adventure with him, he will also have to answer to a pissed off Haley.

The reason for my last statement is that everyone in the party knows Elan might be smart, but he lacks the common sense to keep himself from becoming the bardic pin/sword cushion he seems to be destined to be.

:elan: OoTS #6 "Hi Haley. Look, I found all these free swords. They were in my spleen."

[Oxymoron]

Of course, Roy only protected Elan because he was afraid people wouldn`t like him anymore (which you don`t). Yes, what a clever manipulating leader he is. Of course, saving Elan was just another clever trick up his sleeve muhaha.

Seriously people, give the man a break. He is not a kindergarden teacher and everyone in his group can leave whenever they want. He even tore up their contracts.

[Tamis]

In every campaign I've been in there's one or two characters in the party who assume a leaderrole naturaly. Once i've filled that role as a paladin. In our current campaign it's our two fighters (one a bit more then the other). The key is trying to stay in character, that way you automaticaly find out who is most suited for the position. (I'm not saying there's no discussions or arguments, but in game it's kinda clear who makes the most decisions. Granted, it wouldn't be that way without the support of some key characters, but that's the whole point of deciding we're already friends in one form or the other at the start of the campaign.)

[Dectilon]

No, acctually it wouldn't surprise me if this WAS a push from the Giant for people to like Roy more!

Weeell, it did work on me. A little. : )

[Geaine]

Same here, after reading the latest comic my respect for Roy has gone up a bit.

[Lizard Lord]

Roy's the leader of the party, so why is no one ever on his side? (Well, almost never.) He just saved Elan's butt but all everyone else can do is say he likes Elan. He never gets a good amount of credit.

That might be due to the fact that half of the party is chaotic.

[Ampersand]

What has Roy done to deserve praise? Particularly given his knowledge of game mechanics (which he harps on quite a bit while "saving" Elan) he knew that neither of them were in any real danger. "It's pure numbers, nothing more"

Maybe if Roy ever does something selfless and/or heroic I may praise him, but not for what he did in 425. Unless we're so impressed with Roy finally showing a smidgen of concern for his teammate that we're willing to overlook that this is how he should have been acting all along, particularly given his tendency to claim moral, intellectual or personal superiority over...pretty much all of existance.

Or, in other words, are our expectations so low that we're impressed when he performs to bare minimums?

[Hobot]

OT: the OP's avatar is somewhat disturbing.
That's a bit of an understatement

[Demented]

"It's pure numbers, nothing more"

Ooh, bait! *chomp chomp*
Ouf! T'ere's sumfin' in muh tung...


Roy may have said that it was nothing, but look deeper. It's painfully obvious that Roy's in denial. After all, the big bad fighter has an image to maintain, and he can't allow it to be shown that he cares for the bard. Especially the bard that has repeatedly gotten the party, and the fighter in particular, in dreadful trouble.

It may not be an overwhelming example of human charity*, but it's certainly praise-worthy.

*Come to think of it, the best I can recall was an overwhelming example of Dwarven charity. Stinkin' Clerics gotta be better than everyone.

[Cybren]

No one likes Roy because he's the straightman. The straightman is boring. Booorinnnggggg. He's also a bit self-absorbed and associates with an insane murderer. (Not that that's bad. Belkar is awesome. But Roy can't have his cake and eat it to. Either Belkar goes or he can't take the moral highground)
Mostly he's boring.

[Holy_Knight]

Actually--and I've said all this before--I do like Roy, but that doesn't stop me from pointing out his genuine flaws, especially when a lot of people unjustifiably view him as a better moral example than he really is. He did act poorly in how he handled the situation with Miko (actually, he handled almost everything involving Miko poorly, really) and his abandoning of Elan to the bandits was nothing short of morally reprehensible. That being said, he is in general a genuinely good guy, and he's mostly become better throughout the course of the strip. As for saving Elan here, I suppose I fall sort of in between some of the other views. While he does deserve to be commended for it, I don't find it all that extraordinary--although that's at least partially because my impression is that he would have done the same thing in the past as well, had it been necessary.

[JetTheOne]

No one likes Roy because he's the straightman. The straightman is boring. Booorinnnggggg. He's also a bit self-absorbed and associates with an insane murderer. (Not that that's bad. Belkar is awesome. But Roy can't have his cake and eat it to. Either Belkar goes or he can't take the moral highground)
Mostly he's boring.

The saying of having your cake and eating it too actually has no meaning to the delicious frosted cake we're used to. When Marie was speaking of cake, it was an insult since the inside of the ovens were coated with a special paste to prevent the bricks from fire damage and so forth... and when the paste would harden from the fire it would "cake" onto the bricks, therefore the cake she was referring to was that nasty paste crap, not the delicious all powerful food.

[CardinalFang]

The saying of having your cake and eating it too actually has no meaning to the delicious frosted cake we're used to. When Marie was speaking of cake, it was an insult since the inside of the ovens were coated with a special paste to prevent the bricks from fire damage and so forth... and when the paste would harden from the fire it would "cake" onto the bricks, therefore the cake she was referring to was that nasty paste crap, not the delicious all powerful food.
Um...if by "Marie" you are referring to Marie Antoinette, she was the one who said "let them eat cake," NOT "have your cake and eat it, too," which basically means that you want to both eat your cake and still have it (in whole cake form) after you've eaten it -- two mutually exclusive options.
Thus, someone who wants to have their cake and eat it too is either being unreasonable, greedy, or both. I'm not sure where you got that stuff about paste; I've never heard that before, and it makes no sense. Plus, bricks ARE fireproof...that's kind of why chimneys and fireplaces are built out of them.

Anyway, about Roy: I think part of why people seem to have a problem with him in general, is because he's the party leader. Everyone is OK with a murdering psychopath, a greedy rogue who lied to her party about several things (I won't spoil Origins for anyone) and still deceives them about her true motivation for being in the group, and the comically useless bard. But the party leader is supposed to be the stand-up guy who does anything to help the group and the quest. The idea that Roy is a flawed human being is incompatible with the part leader position for a lot of people, because the heroic leader archetype is always a paragon of righteousness and justice and homemade apple pie. If, say, Durkon were the leader, I think more people would be accepting of Roy's flaws, because they don't endanger the mission or hurt the party. But as the leader, he's held to a higher standard, which is really unfair: he's not a better person than any of the others, and it's not right to expect him to be one.

[Zynex]

Roy's the leader of the party, so why is no one ever on his side? (Well, almost never.) He just saved Elan's butt but all everyone else can do is say he likes Elan. He never gets a good amount of credit.

well, then its fairly accurate then. Leader's, most often than not, get less credit than what they deserve. Whenever something goes wrong in a group, its the leader's fault. Whenever the team succeeds, it was because of the team effort.

Totally unfair... :smallsigh:

[Daniel_Q]

Damm you ampersand, is phibbs gonna show up too?
you're constant unyielding charactar bashing is tiresome to come across

[Morty]

(actually, he handled almost everything involving Miko poorly, really)
How is that? Except the last time, Miko heard something she really needed to hear.


What has Roy done to deserve praise? Particularly given his knowledge of game mechanics (which he harps on quite a bit while "saving" Elan) he knew that neither of them were in any real danger. "It's pure numbers, nothing more"

Isn't it obvious that Roy is deluding himself that he doesn't care about Elan?

[Silverlocke980]

Roy is a good, honorable, decent man who also happens to have a tongue just as sharp as his greatsword and an irritable streak a mile long.

This results in a lot of people who don't like him, because we are taught from birth that good guys have blonde hair, speak shining words, and are nice to everybody.

Roy is much more like a real live person would be if they were, in fact, a hero. He's grouchy, irritable, and one of the meanest banterers in a fight I've ever seen (Maybe he takes 20 on Banter checks?).

But he also won't hesitate to save Elan from bandits, to tell the Order they can go their own way instead of following him to kill Xykon, to defend Belkar even though he is a Chaotic Evil (no matter what some people say ;) psychopath, and to, most recently, save Elan from arrows.

Roy is my hero. :)

Besides, how many black characters are leaders in a fantasy world, much less a webcomic? I have a huge taste for things that shatter stereotypes, and seeing Roy's bald, dark-skinned head leading the group just makes me cheer for equal opportunity. Go tall, dark and bald!

[Kreistor]

I like Roy. He's not disimilar to one or two of my own characters.

[Ampersand]

Damm you ampersand, is phibbs gonna show up too?

I don't know about phibbs, but I love you too! :smalltongue:


you're constant unyielding charactar bashing is tiresome to come across

When did I character bash in this thread? If anything, my acknowledgement that Roy is finally starting to live up to the standards he claims for himself is praise.


Roy is a good, honorable, decent man who also happens to have a tongue just as sharp as his greatsword and an irritable streak a mile long.

This results in a lot of people who don't like him, because we are taught from birth that good guys have blonde hair, speak shining words, and are nice to everybody.

Commander Sam Vimes, from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, is almost exactly like Roy. I like Sam Vimes, but I can't stand Roy...largely because, unlike Roy, Sam isn't constantly harping on how great he is, how much smarter he is than everyone else around him, etc. Roy's self-aborption and arrogance is what makes me hate him, not that he's not "nice" to everyone. Hell, until they got out of the dungeon Roy was one of my favorites...it's just when he started interacting with the world beyond his party that it became obvious just how conceited Mr Greenhilt is. It's one thing to be the straight man bouncing off the wacky personalities around you, quite another to be treating the entire rest of the world like it's a particularly foul smelling piece of trash.

[Morty]

When did I character bash in this thread? If anything, my acknowledgement that Roy is finally starting to live up to the standards he claims for himself is praise.

Hmmm... finally? What about rescuing dirt farmer, trying to resolve things with Miko peacefully, rescuing Elan, protecting Belkar, accepting mission to destroy Xykon despite his father acting like a total self-absorbed jerk, offering help to Hinjo, rescuing his sister despite the fact that she's arrogant whore... do I have to continue?
Also.. arrogance? Just because he's tired of Elan's stupidity, Haley's greed, Belkar's homicidal tendencies, Miko's self-righteousness and his father's arrogancy and overall jerkiness he's arrogant?
And, I repeat, Roy is morally superior to Miko. Everyone is.

[Oxymoron]

Well, Commander Sam Vimes is a nihilist. Don`t get me wrong, Vimes is a streetwise, caring and charitable recovering alcoholic, but sometimes he whines too much (to himself) about how unfair the world is and how much better his life was when he was poor. He actually complains about his new shoes, his warm food and his hot baths. Roy can be a whiner too, but at least he seems to appreciate the few comforts life gives him (like the Royal suite in the tavern). However, both characters have some good reasons to be grumpy and unhappy. Vimes have led a hard life in poverty up till now, and Roy have an inferiour complex caused by his father + he dosen`t get much sleep during quests.

I get that his mean personality and sharp tounge dosen`t give him many fan followers, but there seem to be an obsession among some of you to discredit him at any turn. So far he has succeded at everything he has set his mind to:

Defeating Xykon (not permanently), saving the group from the bandits, finding the starmetal, battling the ogres, saving Elan from dying from poison and rescuing his sister. Of course, none of these missions happened flawlessy, but he always triumphed in the end. And yes, he couldn`t have done it without the help of the rest of the group.

I think he is a great character ( I even like whiny Vimes), and he will triumph in defeating Xykon once more (not permanently).

[Lizard Lord]

Hmmm... finally? What about rescuing dirt farmer, trying to resolve things with Miko peacefully, rescuing Elan, protecting Belkar, accepting mission to destroy Xykon despite his father acting like a total self-absorbed jerk, offering help to Hinjo, rescuing his sister despite the fact that she's arrogant whore... do I have to continue?
Also.. arrogance? Just because he's tired of Elan's stupidity, Haley's greed, Belkar's homicidal tendencies, Miko's self-righteousness and his father's arrogancy and overall jerkiness he's arrogant?
And, I repeat, Roy is morally superior to Miko. Everyone is.

Even Belkar and Xykon? Miko may be wrong about alot of things, and yes she is not a very nice person, but she did help out the dirt farmers just as Roy did.

I wouldn't say the chaotic evil people are morally superior to Miko just yet.

Even one else is though, without a doubt.

[Morty]

Even Belkar and Xykon? Miko may be wrong about alot of things, and yes she is not a very nice person, but she did help out the dirt farmers just as Roy did.

I wouldn't say the chaotic evil people are morally superior to Miko just yet.

They clearly aren't morally inferior to her. As Redcloak said: Xykon may be lich, but at least he copes to it. Same with Belkar. They're both selfish and evil-though Belkar develops some non-selfish thoughts from time to time-but they aren't treating people like inferior because they don't follow their moral code.

[Oxymoron]

Well I would rather listen to one of Mikos tedious stern lectures than get stabbed by Belkar or spelled by Xykon.

[EvilElitest]

Besides, how many black characters are leaders in a fantasy world, much less a webcomic? I have a huge taste for things that shatter stereotypes, and seeing Roy's bald, dark-skinned head leading the group just makes me cheer for equal opportunity. Go tall, dark and bald!
Far to true. Great job.


[/QUOTE] how much smarter he is than everyone else around him, etc. Roy's self-aborption and arrogance is what makes me hate him, not that he's not "nice" to everyone. Hell, until they got out of the dungeon Roy was one of my favorites...it's just when he started interacting with the world beyond his party that it became obvious just how conceited Mr Greenhilt is. It's one thing to be the straight man bouncing off the wacky personalities around you, quite another to be treating the entire rest of the world like it's a particularly foul smelling piece of trash.[/QUOTE]

Hmm, why would Roy be arrogant? Maybe because he is the ONLY FREAKING SANE PERSON IN THE STRIP! Belkar is a mudering psycho killer, V is an egomaniac (and the anti roy people seem him with him/her's ego) and has an unknown gender, Haley is obsessive, insecure, with a split personality and love smitten, Elan is to dumb to even go into, his dad is a overbearing control freak, the Oracle is a kobald, Nale is a evil over the top bond villain, Xykon is just nuts, Thog is Thog, Sabrina is a sex obsessed demon/devil, Miko is a zealous obsessive psycho with a server personality disorder, a massive ego god complex, an ends justifies the means manner of looking at things and no social skills, Shojo is petty and is obsessed with a cat (at first glance), Hinjo is gullible (well he is a paladin), the MITD is just sad, and his sister is a valley girl. Why do you think he is overbearing? Hell, with the exception of Miko, most people tolerate the others flaws, why is Roy hated for being intelligent. He is the only character who has some understanding about what is going on. He is rude, sarcastic, nasty, vindictive and a elitist, but come on, compared to everybody else he is a genius. He has only made a few mistakes so far, all of which everybody who hates him just nitpicks over. Ironically, these people also seem to love Miko no matter what she does. How did he handle the Miko situation badly? Once he found out she was a paladin, he tried to work with her. He told OOTS not to attack her because she was good. Her looks may have been part of that but still a major theme was the fact he did not want to attack a Paladin. He followed her orders, kept OOTS in line and tried to be polite. And when Miko's Holier than thou complex got out of hand, he did the morally correct thing. He apologized for his earlier behavior then told Miko bluntly they were not just going to allow her to bully them anymore and they were going to stand up for their rights. He also explained why. And some people will be all "Oh he emotionally destroyed her" but think about it. Were was he wrong. And consider the fact that he is no longer going to be nice to her as she will not respond in kind ever. His only idea that i did not like was leaving Elan behind, but he went back on that. He is a very good leader, seems to be only competent character and has points out others flaws. How does this make him a bad person? Arrogant? More like competent. I think people hate him because he gives orders. Hell notice how much he is like Red Cloak and i don't see anyone bashing him
from,
EE

[StickMan]

Roy shows how much he like Elan. Nice.

[Lizard Lord]

They clearly aren't morally inferior to her. As Redcloak said: Xykon may be lich, but at least he copes to it. Same with Belkar. They're both selfish and evil-though Belkar develops some non-selfish thoughts from time to time-but they aren't treating people like inferior because they don't follow their moral code.

Xykon doesn't treat people like they are inferior to him? He treats his minnions like slaves and sacrifices them just because he is bored. If that isn't treating people like they are inferior then I don't know what is.

[Innis Cabal]

everyone likes Belkar it seems..only becuase, even though he is clearly CE, he is the CN everyone plays when the DM says "NO EVIL". I like Roy, not my fav character in the slightest but i have liked him since the very start. So instead of disliking him becuase he is human, why not start disliking other characters for being cliche

[MReav]

Xykon doesn't treat people like they are inferior to him? He treats his minnions like slaves and sacrifices them just because he is bored. If that isn't treating people like they are inferior then I don't know what is.

No, I believe the argument is that she's morally inferior to deranged, mass-murdering psychopaths because she lectures people for not being Lawful Good.

I wasn't aware self-righteousness bordering on hypocrisy was more repugnant than murder.

Still, Roy does good work, but he does have his head up his ass sometimes.

[Innis Cabal]

he is LG, it happens sometimes

[MReav]

he is LG, it happens sometimes

Not saying that it doesn't.

[Morty]

Xykon doesn't treat people like they are inferior to him? He treats his minnions like slaves and sacrifices them just because he is bored. If that isn't treating people like they are inferior then I don't know what is.

Yeah, but he doesn't feel like it's right thing to do. He's doing that because he can. It's bad, sure, but it isn't much worse than what Miko is doing.


No, I believe the argument is that she's morally inferior to deranged, mass-murdering psychopaths because she lectures people for not being Lawful Good.

Not inferior, but not as superior as she(and her defenders) thinks she is. They doesn't care about any moral code, she feels like she can treat people like inferior because they don't follow her moral code.

[Gitman00]

Whoo, boy! Greetings, everyone, from one who has been lurking for the better part of a year. My first post has to be a response to Ampersand. I wonder if this will be the beginning of a trend? :smallwink:


Roy's self-aborption and arrogance is what makes me hate him, not that he's not "nice" to everyone. Hell, until they got out of the dungeon Roy was one of my favorites...it's just when he started interacting with the world beyond his party that it became obvious just how conceited Mr Greenhilt is. It's one thing to be the straight man bouncing off the wacky personalities around you, quite another to be treating the entire rest of the world like it's a particularly foul smelling piece of trash.

Sounds like some deep-seated anger towards our noble leader. Examples, please! I personally find Roy to be a fine protagonist, albeit having some flaws that make him believable as a character. A particularly foul-smelling piece of trash? Do cite your source on this. Roy's combat banter is definitely sharper than most, and he certainly has more than his fair share of bitterness, but this bit of hyperbole seems to negate the fact that Roy finds said world worthy of saving at great personal risk. He also, as has been mentioned in this thread, tore up his party's contracts when the mission they signed on for turned out to be more extensive than he had anticipated. I think it's notable that every one of them (with the possible exception of Belkar) VOLUNTARILY continued to follow him.

Incidentally (and I suspect I'm setting myself up for some serious flaming), I find it strange that you hate Roy for his self-absorption and arrogance, but are a member of Miko's fan club. :smallconfused: Am I missing something?

[Ampersand]

What about rescuing dirt farmer...

He clearly states he only does this because he's bored.


...trying to resolve things with Miko peacefully...

Again, cleary stated ulterior motive, in that he wanted to smite evil with her.


...rescuing Elan...

After abaonding him to begin with and leaving him for several hours, during which time Elan easily could've been killed, and probably would've been if Paw had been leader of the bandits and not Samantha (who was out to smite evil with good lucking guys).


...protecting Belkar...

Loyalty isn't always a virtue. In fact, I'd say that helping Belkar was a rather moronic move on the part of the entire OotS.


...accepting mission to destroy Xykon despite his father acting like a total self-absorbed jerk...

To prove his father wrong and rub it in his face.


...offering help to Hinjo...

Which was a result of Hinjo guilting him into it, as I recall.


...rescuing his sister despite the fact that she's arrogant whore...

Which had at least as much to do with revenge on Nale as any danger Julia was in.


Also.. arrogance? Just because he's tired of Elan's stupidity, Haley's greed, Belkar's homicidal tendencies, Miko's self-righteousness and his father's arrogancy and overall jerkiness he's arrogant?

Actually, I was thinking more about the utter contempt and disdain he holds all NPCs in.


And, I repeat, Roy is morally superior to Miko. Everyone is.

I don't remember mentioning Miko. Why are you talking about her? :smallconfused:



I get that his mean personality and sharp tounge dosen`t give him many fan followers, but there seem to be an obsession among some of you to discredit him at any turn.

I don't try to discredit him at every turn. Just when he annoys me.

Elitist...man, I tried to read that. Really, I did. Could you reformat with paragraph breaks?



Whoo, boy! Greetings, everyone, from one who has been lurking for the better part of a year.

Welcome! :smallsmile:


My first post has to be a response to Ampersand. I wonder if this will be the beginning of a trend? :smallwink:

I try to make a difference. :smalltongue:


Sounds like some deep-seated anger towards our noble leader.

Not really deep-seated. More mildly irked, I'd say.


Examples, please!

Sure thing!

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0211.html), here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html), here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html). All demonstrative of the contempt Roy holds everyone else in the world in. The last one is particularly damning...here we have an epic level wizard (it's been a while since I've run the numbers, but you need to be something like 24th level to Teleport six other people) and Roy still completely brushes him off. The Cliffport PD Chief sums it up nicely herehttp://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0360.html

I did compile that list back in December...I'm sure I'd get some more examples if I added the three months of intervening strips to it.



Incidentally (and I suspect I'm setting myself up for some serious flaming), I find it strange that you hate Roy for his self-absorption and arrogance, but are a member of Miko's fan club. Am I missing something?

I really don't want this thread to veer off into Mikoland (enough do that entirely on their own), but the short of it is that, to me, Miko is the best type of antagonist: she wants to do good, thinks she does good, but her own shortcomings (not to mention a healthy dose of Plot) prevent her from doing so. If this was a mass marketed comic book, she'd be the Punisher or Batman type.

[Morty]

Agreed, my bad, let's not turn another thread into Miko-thread. She really doesn't deserve that much attention, and I shouldn't have brought her to this.
Anyway:

Again, cleary stated ulterior motive, in that he wanted to smite evil with her.
Yes, he was attracted to her, but he also wanted to prove their innocence peacefully, without fighting Miko- and he even defended her from V, Haley and Belkar.


After abaonding him to begin with and leaving him for several hours, during which time Elan easily could've been killed, and probably would've been if Paw had been leader of the bandits and not Samantha (who was out to smite evil with good lucking guys).
Right, that was mistake. But he learned his lesson, and clearly isn't going to do this again.


Loyalty isn't always a virtue. In fact, I'd say that helping Belkar was a rather moronic move on the part of the entire OotS.
Loyalty isn't a virtue, eh? So, Roy should've left someone who helped him in defeating Xykon to be killed? Especially when people still blame him for leaving Elan?


To prove his father wrong and rub it in his face.
Wrong. "As much as I loathe how much you manipulated my friends, Xykon is actual threat." "There are too many lives on stake". Strip #293.


Which was a result of Hinjo guilting him into it, as I recall.
Wrong once again. Strip #410: "It looks like I'm on my own, then"-"Not if you would be willing to accept my help". And besides, the fact that he can be guilted into something means that he cares about lives of others, isn't it?


Which had at least as much to do with revenge on Nale as any danger Julia was in.
Well, he came to camp shouting about his sister being in danger, not about Nale being on loose.


Actually, I was thinking more about the utter contempt and disdain he holds all NPCs in.
That's a joke about PCs often stumbling through world nont noticing NPCs. Not something you can blame Roy of.


Here, here, here and here. All demonstrative of the contempt Roy holds everyone else in the world in. The last one is particularly damning...here we have an epic level wizard (it's been a while since I've run the numbers, but you need to be something like 24th level to Teleport six other people) and Roy still completely brushes him off. The Cliffport PD Chief sums it up nicely herehttp://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0360.html
Same thing. Chief's talking about all PCs in the world, not only Roy. And again, that's a joke about PC/NPC relation in many D&D games. Same with Wizard Guy.

[BisectedBrioche]

All this anti-Royism is annoying me. Next they'll be attacking Belkar for being a murdering psychopath, or demanding the president of the thieves guild be arrested by some guy who thinks he's a dwarf.

[mikeejimbo]

I have but one thing to say:

Roy likes Elaaaaaaaaaaan :D

[Daniel_Q]

The thing with the bandits, the whole point of it is that roy didn't go for him at first, because Elan is a terrible screw up (who should have built up serious negative-karma and had something horrible happen to him), but then he realizes that he's still part of the team and he isn't the kind of guy who would leave a team-mate behind
(Another strike against Elan, when given the oppurtunity to escape he instead goes back to make out with thier leader, putting the entire party in risk)

The whining is really getting repetitive, he could save a bus full of puppies of children then find the cure for cancer and you'd prolly just think he was showing off to feed his monsterous ego

[Kreistor]

I'm going wqith M0rt on this one. More than half of Ampersand's claims of contempt seem to me to be baseless.

The one that I did agree with (#340) is really only an off-handed reply to an NPC that's speaking through the fourth wall. Since this comic is intended to emulate players and DM's, in this case, I think we're seeing the player's reaction, rather than an in character reaction by Roy. My players, regardless of alignment, sometimes do this sort of thing, just because they're bored of speaking with NPC's and want to get on with it.

As for #211, Roy's initial reaction is to the presence of a plot hook. He's happy for the plot hook because he was bored, but that does not extend to the specifics of the quest.We can't say that because Roy was bored at the beginning that his only motie for helping the dirt farmer was boredom.

In #289, Roy is bemoaning the blow to his ego. He had been fooled and was embarrassed by someone. Being proud is not denied by the Lawful Good alignment (otherwise Miko would not have qualified for a Paladin. "I'm special!" after all). This wasn't about Roy's contempt, it was about his feelings of superiority. At least he can accept that other people have power.

In #329, Roy initially reacts with incredulity that the Oracle is a Kobold, but that lasts only as long as it takes for the kobold to explain the Memory Charm that is intended to make people forget that. Roy is suspicious, but he's supposed to be suspicious. If the protest is about the previous visit, when the Oracle was hung out the window, remember that things do sometimes happen solely for the humour value and that Durkon was involved. Durkon has avoided participating in the entire Miko conflict due to his adherence to his Good alignment, so whatever caused that particular event, Durkon agreed this step was necessary (note Durkon's "angry face"), so drawing any conclusions about Roy's personality for it is inappropriate.

[Querzis]

well, then its fairly accurate then. Leader's, most often than not, get less credit than what they deserve. Whenever something goes wrong in a group, its the leader's fault. Whenever the team succeeds, it was because of the team effort.

The worse is that I could think of hundred of situations in real life or in stories when this sort of thing happen... Its also true in pretty much all the situations Roy has been in, as well as Nale. Nale last plan worked perfectly and he did a good job, Thog is the one who screwed up by freeing Elan. And the last time he failed because of Haley natural 20 but obviously it was his fault anyway... Thats probably why the leaders are always my favorites characters, everyone blame and/or hate them when they do a really good job (like Shojo).

[Gitman00]

In #329, Roy initially reacts with incredulity that the Oracle is a Kobold, but that lasts only as long as it takes for the kobold to explain the Memory Charm that is intended to make people forget that. Roy is suspicious, but he's supposed to be suspicious. If the protest is about the previous visit, when the Oracle was hung out the window, remember that things do sometimes happen solely for the humour value and that Durkon was involved. Durkon has avoided participating in the entire Miko conflict due to his adherence to his Good alignment, so whatever caused that particular event, Durkon agreed this step was necessary (note Durkon's "angry face"), so drawing any conclusions about Roy's personality for it is inappropriate.

I think Ampersand was actually referring to Roy's dismissal of the Test of the Heart's administrator in the first panel.

If that's the case, I think it fits under the same category as #340: a fourth-wall breach that is more of a jab at the general attitude of players toward NPCs than a major indicator of Roy's character. I agree with the rest of your post, however.

[Spleen]

After abaonding him to begin with and leaving him for several hours, during which time Elan easily could've been killed, and probably would've been if Paw had been leader of the bandits and not Samantha (who was out to smite evil with good lucking guys).


So what happened to his big epiphany where he goes back for Elan?

And hell, Elan has continuously shown himself to be just as much of a detriment to the party as a help, if not more. Not to mention a big, glowing target for Nale's continuous interference.

Especially given that he is the tactician and employer of the group, who should by all accounts be glad that Elan is out of the party's way, the fact that Roy felt morally obliged to help someone who's incompetent enough to activate the "self-destruct" glyph on Zykon's gate at all, let alone in the short time he did says a great deal about his character.



Loyalty isn't always a virtue. In fact, I'd say that helping Belkar was a rather moronic move on the part of the entire OotS.

Yet he's such a disloyal jerk for leaving the other incompetent element of his group behind. Odd.

And you seriously think the Oots is gonna leave Belkar to rot in jail, robbing the strip of one of its most popular characters? Learn2plotdevice



To prove his father wrong and rub it in his face.

Pure conjecture on your part, and a rather poor one, at that. Prove his dad wrong about what? Roy specifically pointed out that were it not for the innocents at stake he would not help his dad out of spite. If following his dad's orders is out of spite, and not following his orders is out of spite, what exactly does Roy have to do to convince you?



Which was a result of Hinjo guilting him into it, as I recall.

As m0rt pointed out, Roy had just offered his help seconds earlier on his own accord.


Which had at least as much to do with revenge on Nale as any danger Julia was in.

Again, pure unfounded speculation on your part.



Actually, I was thinking more about the utter contempt and disdain he holds all NPCs in.

Welcome to OotS. In this comic, we make frequent jokes regarding the fourth wall and the cliches of the genre. I hope you enjoy your stay.



I don't try to discredit him at every turn. Just when he annoys me.

It's just interesting who quick you are to denounce his "arrogance" and "selfishness" considering the company he keeps (Belkar, Miko, Belkar, Vaarsuvius, Belkar, Nale, Belkar, etc. I think I forgot Belkar.)



Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0211.html), here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html), here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html). All demonstrative of the contempt Roy holds everyone else in the world in. The last one is particularly damning...here we have an epic level wizard (it's been a while since I've run the numbers, but you need to be something like 24th level to Teleport six other people) and Roy still completely brushes him off. The Cliffport PD Chief sums it up nicely herehttp://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0360.html

See earlier quip regarding the fourth wall.



I really don't want this thread to veer off into Mikoland (enough do that entirely on their own), but the short of it is that, to me, Miko is the best type of antagonist: she wants to do good, thinks she does good, but her own shortcomings (not to mention a healthy dose of Plot) prevent her from doing so. If this was a mass marketed comic book, she'd be the Punisher or Batman type.

Miko killed a defenseless geriatric, in clear defiance of the law that she is so eager to harp on about, based on wildly implausible circumstantial evidence that she knows damn well makes no sense, in front of his nephew. She very arrogantly pulled her rank as the top paladin as some half-hearted justification for murder, before very arrogantly declaring that Hijo was no match for her in battle. Despite her constant lip-service to honor, she charged and almost killed a clearly defenseless Belkar, slaughtered the aforementioned geriatric, and had to have Belkar of all people explain to her that summoning all the paladins in the city to help during a one-on-one "battle of honor" would not be very honorable. Last I checked, Batman wasn't a hypocritical, deluded, arrogant, incompetent psychopath.

I'm inclined to agree with Silverlocke980. Roy is the most original, fleshed out character in the strip. He's a tactical, sarcastic, pragmatic, bald, black, independent, intelligent human fighter that doesn't rescue damsels-in-distress and tells sacred but pointless blood-oaths to shove it. He serves as a foil and straight man to the outlandish, extreme, and often (intentionally) clichéd personalities of the other characters and as such is admittedly one of the more boring characters. But without a straight man the OotS would fall apart, and his few faults, particularly when compared to those of the psychos around him, are no where near deserving of the ire they recieve.

[The Extinguisher]

I know why! I know why!

Because people just want to hate someone, and don't care about the good things.

If any character does anything to a PC that isn't bending over to thier will, they muse be hated.

(For the purpose of arguement, the characters follow a certian hierarchy: Thog, Elan, Belkar, Haley, Miko, V, Durkon and Roy, in that order)

[EvilElitest]

I'm inclined to agree with Silverlocke980. Roy is the most original, fleshed out character in the strip. He's an intelligent, sarcastic, pragmatic, black human fighter that doesn't rescue damsels-in-distress and tells sacred but pointless blood-oaths to shove it. He serves as a foil and straight man to the outlandish, extreme personalities of the other characters and as such is admittadly one of the more boring characters. But without a straight man the OotS would fall apart, and his few faults, particularly when compared to those of the psychos around him, are no where near deserving of the ire they recieve.

You forgot bald, smart fighter and indepedent. But apart from that good job.
I don't see why you could not like Roy, he is such a well devolped character.
from,
EE

[Ampersand]

Loyalty isn't a virtue, eh? So, Roy should've left someone who helped him in defeating Xykon to be killed? Especially when people still blame him for leaving Elan?

No, I said loyalty isn't always a virtue. Like when you're loyal to a psychopathic murderer who's willing to kill you for your magic items and the fun it would provide because (remember how easy it was for Nale to get Belkar to attack his teammates while charmed?)...well...we're never really given a reason why they keep Belkar around, other than the "He's a PC and we can't kick people out of the gaming group" motiff.

Loyalty to Elan, who (while stupid) actually deserves it is admirable. Loyalty to Belkar is stupid.


Wrong. "As much as I loathe how much you manipulated my friends, Xykon is actual threat." "There are too many lives on stake". Strip #293.

I'll see you that and raise you "But I'm not going to do this for YOU, Dad. I'm doing it because you don't think I can. That's more than enough reason to try my best. I won't rest until I've avenged your loss and proven you wrong in one bold stroke!"
-otOoPC p.34

and...

"You've sworn to defeat Xykon so that you can rub it in your dead father's ghostly face. Classy."
-Blood Oath of Vengeance schtick, OotS Adventure Game


Wrong once again. Strip #410: "It looks like I'm on my own, then"-"Not if you would be willing to accept my help".

My mistake, I mixed up the order in which things happened in that strip.


And besides, the fact that he can be guilted into something means that he cares about lives of others, isn't it?

Not very much, if he needs to be guilted.


Well, he came to camp shouting about his sister being in danger, not about Nale being on loose.

Really? So that's why he mentioned Nale a full two panels before Julia?


That's a joke about PCs often stumbling through world nont noticing NPCs. Not something you can blame Roy of.

The jokes the characters are given are related to their personalities. Why was Roy given all the "NPCs are worthless/beneath my notice" jokes instead of, say, Durkon?

Besides, one of Roy's claims to moral superiority comes from "concern for the dignity of sentient beings". Unless NPCs don't count as sentient, show me how concerned he was here? Telling epic level wizards to "go have fun," refering to people as plot hooks and refusing to have anything to do with them once they're "no longer relevent"...seems pretty contemptious to me.



The whining is really getting repetitive...

Huh. And here I thought I was expressing an opinion, albeit one that disagreed with the majority. Unless disagreeing with said majority is the only requisitie to be considered "whining" these days? I mean, I would've thought it would take being really obsessive about it, starting threads about it, demanding that Roy be removed from the strip or I'd stop reading, etc. But, you know, I've been wrong before.


...he could save a bus full of puppies of children then find the cure for cancer and you'd prolly just think he was showing off to feed his monsterous ego

Wow, really? I would've thought that I would admire him at least for saving the puppies (the kids and cancer is more dubious, since that involves helping humans), but I guess I was wrong. Thank you for that insight into my thought processes.



As for #211, Roy's initial reaction is to the presence of a plot hook. He's happy for the plot hook because he was bored, but that does not extend to the specifics of the quest.We can't say that because Roy was bored at the beginning that his only motie for helping the dirt farmer was boredom.

I think the fact that Roy's gut reaction it was a plot hook, and the fact that he didn't correct himself until Miko gave him that withering glare, is the telling factor here. Particularly in light of the explanation ofthis strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0145.html), I have to wonder if Roy would have stopped to help the dirt farmers if they had encountered the displacer beasts...after all, they had already had their "one" random encounter. (Of course, by the principals of 145, they might not ever have encountered the dirt farmers if they had encountered the displacer beasts. Damn speculation and multiple possibilties)


In #289, Roy is bemoaning the blow to his ego. He had been fooled and was embarrassed by someone. Being proud is not denied by the Lawful Good alignment

I never said it was. But the timing in 289 is important...Roy didn't care that Shojo tricked him until after Shojo said he only had Aristocrat levels. The real blow to Roy's ego isn't that he was tricked, it's that he was tricked by someone he considers inferior to himself by virtue of the fact that he's a Player Character.


I think Ampersand was actually referring to Roy's dismissal of the Test of the Heart's administrator in the first panel.

Indeed. Roy's other actions in that strip were in character and I have no particular problem with them. In fact, I find the combination of the smartass kobold and Roy & Durkon's reaction rather amusing.


Last I checked, Batman wasn't a hypocritical, deluded, arrogant, incompetent psychopath.

Depends on who's writing him. :smalltongue: But I said Punisher or Batman type, meaning I wasn't making a direct comparison to those two characters, but rather the archetypes they represent.

[Spleen]

No, I said loyalty isn't always a virtue. Like when you're loyal to a psychopathic murderer who's willing to kill you for your magic items and the fun it would provide because (remember how easy it was for Nale to get Belkar to attack his teammates while charmed?)...well...we're never really given a reason why they keep Belkar around, other than the "He's a PC and we can't kick people out of the gaming group" motiff.

Loyalty to Elan, who (while stupid) actually deserves it is admirable. Loyalty to Belkar is stupid.

Belkar is a higher level than most of the Azure City NPCs, is perfectly willing, able and experienced in fighting goblonoids, and as soon as he's done doing exactly what he does best, he's going to be thrown back in prison. Belkar is like a bomb being thrown at the enemy; it would be stupid not to use him just because he's dangerous in peacetime.

Meanwhile, Elan demoralizes the troops and stands face first in front of arrows.



I'll see you that and raise you "But I'm not going to do this for YOU, Dad. I'm doing it because you don't think I can. That's more than enough reason to try my best. I won't rest until I've avenged your loss and proven you wrong in one bold stroke!"
-otOoPC p.34

and...

"You've sworn to defeat Xykon so that you can rub it in your dead father's ghostly face. Classy."
-Blood Oath of Vengeance schtick, OotS Adventure Game


I haven't read either of these, but wouldn't these quotes be regarding the first attempt at Xykon, not the second, world-in-danger attempt? And thus irrelevant?



Really? So that's why he mentioned Nale a full two panels before Julia?

Because he doesn't need to yell about how he'll bring Julia to justice for kidnapping Julia as a means for Julia to attack Elan. Cause, ya know, she didn't. It was Nale. If he ran in without mentioning Nale, the enemy, at all you'd probably be accusing him of being a thoughtless, stupid leader.


The jokes the characters are given are related to their personalities. Why was Roy given all the "NPCs are worthless/beneath my notice" jokes instead of, say, Durkon?

For the same reason that V doesn't run around threating to slit throats. Roy's schtick is being the leader, thus the most aware of DnD rules and conventions and the jokes that result from them. That and he does most of the talking, anyway. Durkon is just a dwarf who's scared of trees.



Besides, one of Roy's claims to moral superiority comes from "concern for the dignity of sentient beings". Unless NPCs don't count as sentient, show me how concerned he was here? Telling epic level wizards to "go have fun," refering to people as plot hooks and refusing to have anything to do with them once they're "no longer relevent"...seems pretty contemptious to me.

This. Is. A. Comedy.

Once Rich signs the rights for Order of the Stick: the Historical Drama, and Roy is acting the same way, then you'll have a point. In the meantime, this is a joke strip that makes jokes. It makes jokes. These are jokes. Roy is making jokes.

Jokes.



Huh. And here I thought I was expressing an opinion, albeit one that disagreed with the majority. Unless disagreeing with said majority is the only requisitie to be considered "whining" these days? I mean, I would've thought it would take being really obsessive about it, starting threads about it, demanding that Roy be removed from the strip or I'd stop reading, etc. But, you know, I've been wrong before.

Normally I'd agree with your right to a differing opinion, but after closely reading and responding to your above comments, it sure seems that you're pulling at straws, and making much ado about nothing, such as deriding Roy's personality for the very jokes that this comic is built on.



Wow, really? I would've thought that I would admire him at least for saving the puppies (the kids and cancer is more dubious, since that involves helping humans), but I guess I was wrong. Thank you for that insight into my thought processes.

No, no. In strip #51, Roy is clearly ignoring Thog's thought processes on puppies. If Roy were as smart and moral as he says, he would be psychic and know that Thog wants puppies. But he ignores him, so his later action of saving the aforementioned puppies is clearly out of his contempt for NPCs and only to spite for the bus. Otherwise, he would have said nothing but the words "puppies" "kids" and "cancer" for the last 1000 strips but he didn't. He talked about other things besides specifically the puppies, kids and cancer, and thus Roy is a big doodie head who has no place in a completely for serious romantic drama like OotS.



I never said it was. But the timing in 289 is important...Roy didn't care that Shojo tricked him until after Shojo said he only had Aristocrat levels. The real blow to Roy's ego isn't that he was tricked, it's that he was tricked by someone he considers inferior to himself by virtue of the fact that he's a Player Character.

Jokes...:sigh: But no, I'll humor you...

Did you not notice how Shojo immediately empathized with and comforted Roy? Clearly, in this world built on jokes about RPG conventions, an NPC outwitting a group of PCs is considered a tragic, noteworthy experience. Who are you to apply your moralities on people living in a completely different world with completely different customs from us?

Also, jokes.

[EvilElitest]

And what hte hell are you talking about an epic wizard. He can cast teloport, taht does not make him level 24. He is a NPC who will not help OOTS other than teloport. Why? Because he does not work for them he workds for Shojo and i doubt that Shojo would have ordered his wizard to risk his life for OOTS. He is a minor non important NPC who said he did not want to help and would rather drink himself into a sober. Considering he is not epic i don't think Roy turning him down is strange.
from,
EE

[Kreistor]

I think the fact that Roy's gut reaction it was a plot hook,

One other thing about referring to a plot hook. Roy can't do that. As a character in a story, he is unaware of the existence of the author and his plots.

This must be the player metagaming again. The Plot Hook reference is the player's reaction, not Roy's, so it does not cast any negative light towards Roy's personality, just the player's.


I never said it was. But the timing in 289 is important...Roy didn't care that Shojo tricked him until after Shojo said he only had Aristocrat levels. The real blow to Roy's ego isn't that he was tricked, it's that he was tricked by someone he considers inferior to himself by virtue of the fact that he's a Player Character.

That is part of the joke, but also part of the joke is that Roy feels guilty about it. He's been caught in an ego trap, and found out. He doesn't deny it by claiming he can't be wrong because he's special. He doesn't overreact: he accepts that he's been caught.

But again, this may indicate more about the player than the PC. PC's genreally are not supposed to recognize a difference between PC and NPC. Roy hasn't been fooled by an NPC, he's been fooled by the DM. Roy's player thinks the DM can't fool him, and it's him that's been caught out.


Besides, one of Roy's claims to moral superiority comes from "concern for the dignity of sentient beings". Unless NPCs don't count as sentient, show me how concerned he was here? Telling epic level wizards to "go have fun," refering to people as plot hooks and refusing to have anything to do with them once they're "no longer relevent"...seems pretty contemptious to me.

Do any of these references wind up with people hurt? Dead? Injured?

As a character flaw, this is a very small and nondangerous form of egotism. It's not going to lead to Roy, say, cutting down an octagenarian, like Miko's Hubris. Minor character flaws are acceptable in PC's, and they don't change one's alignment.

Even if Roy fails to respect "the diignity of sentient life", that does not deny him the Lawful Good alignment. Alignments are not absolutes. They are often just the best fit. Failing to meet one aspect of the alignment just isn't enough to force the character into another alignment that he doesn't fit four qualities of.

And, ultimately, though Roy may have this egotism, his actions do respect the dignity of sentient life. Remember #293. "As much as I loathe how much you've manipulated my friends and me, Xykon is an actual threat." Roy accepts that even though he has a personal reason to ignore the threat, he is still going to save the world. Not because he wants to show up his father. He says later, "If it weren't for the threat to the entire world, I would tell you to shove your 'blood oath' against Xykon up your wrinkled incorporeal ass." Roy is not so small that any of his flaws will cause him to divert from the real threat. The greater good is still his guide.

[Kreistor]

And what hte hell are you talking about an epic wizard. He can cast teloport, taht does not make him level 24. He is a NPC who will not help OOTS other than teloport.

The reasoning runs that Teleport allows only one extra person per three caster levels. Since he teleports the five others, that comes out to level 15. (Not L24. I think someone must have thought it took 1/four and the caster was included in that number.) L15 isn't all that Epic.

But I would guess that the Giant just didn't look it up and teleported the number of people he needed to teleport.

[EvilElitest]

The reasoning runs that Teleport allows only one extra person per three caster levels. Since he teleports the five others, that comes out to level 15. (Not L24. I think someone must have thought it took 1/four and the caster was included in that number.) L15 isn't all that Epic.

But I would guess that the Giant just didn't look it up and teleported the number of people he needed to teleport.

Ok if he is level 15, that would put him around (estimated) level of OOTS currently. As it is, he apperently did not want to fight and Roy did not really want him involved anyways as he works for Shinjo and has nothing to do with LG.
from,
EE

[Ampersand]

Belkar is a higher level than most of the Azure City NPCs, is perfectly willing, able and experienced in fighting goblonoids, and as soon as he's done doing exactly what he does best, he's going to be thrown back in prison. Belkar is like a bomb being thrown at the enemy; it would be stupid not to use him just because he's dangerous in peacetime.

Meanwhile, Elan demoralizes the troops and stands face first in front of arrows.

It isn't a utilitarian question, it's a question of their overall morality. Elan, stupid and mostly ineffectual as he is, is still a decent person who tries to do the right thing.


I haven't read either of these, but wouldn't these quotes be regarding the first attempt at Xykon, not the second, world-in-danger attempt? And thus irrelevant?

Since that oath was never fulfilled (and Xykon was still a threat to the world during it), no, it is not irrelevant. The best you can argue is that Roy reconfirmed his original oath once he learned that he had failed the first time.

And no, I don't blame Roy for not realizing that he had failed in Durokan's Dungeon. Given his stated disdain for magic, his fighter training, and the realative rarity of liches it's reasonable to assume that he wouldn't know about the phylactory.


Because he doesn't need to yell about how he'll bring Julia to justice for kidnapping Julia as a means for Julia to attack Elan. Cause, ya know, she didn't. It was Nale.

So there was no way he could've phrased it to say, for example, "Your brother has kidnapped my sister!" or somesuch? We'd have the same information but Julia wouldn't seem like an afterthought.


For the same reason that V doesn't run around threating to slit throats. Roy's schtick is being the leader, thus the most aware of DnD rules and conventions and the jokes that result from them.

How does being aware of rules and conventions necessarily follow from being leader?


This. Is. A. Comedy.

Are Nale and Thog any less evil for murdering citizens of Cliffport to tip off the CPPD? Are Xykon and Redcloak any less reprehensible for their cavalier attitude towards sacrificing minions? If we accept these jokes as indicative of character, why is Roy suddenly exempt from the same standard?


And what hte hell are you talking about an epic wizard. He can cast teloport, taht does not make him level 24.

Teleport is a 5th level Wizard spell, requiring a minimum of 9th level. For every 3 levels after 9th, you can take one additional medium or smaller sized creatures along with you. Shojo's wizard teleports five medium and one small sized creatures along with him. 6*3=18, 18+9=27. So I was actually wrong, he's actually 27th level.

Edit: And even if you want to argue that he's just a Teleport McGuffin, the fact that he can teleport at all is a significant acheivement for any wizard, given that it's assumed that 5th level or so represents a lifetime of effort for "ordinary" people.


One other thing about referring to a plot hook. Roy can't do that. As a character in a story, he is unaware of the existence of the author and his plots.

This must be the player metagaming again. The Plot Hook reference is the player's reaction, not Roy's, so it does not cast any negative light towards Roy's personality, just the player's.

Except, in the context of OotS, RoytheCharacter and RoythePlayer are one and the same, since there isn't a group of people controlling them.


Do any of these references wind up with people hurt? Dead? Injured?

You could say that Roy's dismmisal indirectly caused the death of the wizard, since that's what caused him to get drunk to the point where he not only misfired the teleport but also wasn't able to defend himself against the roc.

But I never said that Roy's egotism caused people to wind up injured or dead, or that he somehow wasn't Lawful Good because of it, just that I didn't like him for it. And, to veer this back on topic, if I ever feel that Roy does something to deserve praise I will (admittingly grudingly) give it to him. But I don't think protecting Elan from the arrows is praise worthy, because as a Lawful and Good person who happens to be the party leader, Roy throwing himself in front of the arrows isn't really going "above and beyond", particularly since he himself points out that the arrows are a mathmatically insignificant threat to him. Roy's actions in 425 came straight out of the Minimum Obligations Manuel...heaping praise on him is like giving out awards for attendance: why are we rewarding something you were supposed to do anyway?

[Kreistor]

Roy did not really want him involved anyways as he works for Shinjo and has nothing to do with LG

There's also the question of whether Roy would want the guy to know anything about the kidnapping. But, in this case, I beleive it's more of a player thing anyway. Some of my players hate having NPC's present in the fight. DM's have, in the past, made them weaker and therefore not particularly effective, or even a detriment. I changed their opinion on that, but there are DM's out there that inspired my group's feelings on the subject.

There is also the fact that NPC's can steal experience. Another reason to not involve an NPC that might have useful abilities.

And there's the challenge factor. Not using an NPC makes the fight harder and more of a challenge. Some people think that a good challenge is more fun than walking through an easy encounter.

So, no, i don't know if Roy's attitude here is clearly contempt for NPC's as it is that he wants to get on with saving his sister and the people he wants to take with him are his friends.

[Kreistor]

Except, in the context of OotS, RoytheCharacter and RoythePlayer are one and the same, since there isn't a group of people controlling them.

But that's a fundamental part of the strip. We often see the characters saying inappropriate thigns that players would say. It's funny because it breaks the fourth wall. This isn't just a fantasy comic, it's a roleplaying comic where we can see our own campaigns reflected in a fantasy setting. It is poking fun at us, the players, as much as the story world itself.

So, no, I completely disagree. There is a player behind each of these characters, and the amount of accuracy in character representation can show us what type of player and what their tendencies are.


You could say that Roy's dismmisal indirectly caused the death of the wizard, since that's what caused him to get drunk to the point where he not only misfired the teleport but also wasn't able to defend himself against the roc.

Wow... that's... wow... indirectly... that's like... wow... how many people did you just put in jail that could never have known someone was going to die because they... wow... that's so... like... wrong. Can you be certain some off-hand comment on your part didn't result in someone dying? This is such an enormous reach, you'd have to have Mr. Fantastic's stretch arms to get there.

No, no one will ever be found responsible for someone who goes out and intentionally gets drunk.

[Morty]

It isn't a utilitarian question, it's a question of their overall morality. Elan, stupid and mostly ineffectual as he is, is still a decent person who tries to do the right thing.
Belkar may be psycho, but Roy still owes as much loyalty to him as to Elan

Since that oath was never fulfilled (and Xykon was still a threat to the world during it), no, it is not irrelevant. The best you can argue is that Roy reconfirmed his original oath once he learned that he had failed the first time.

And no, I don't blame Roy for not realizing that he had failed in Durokan's Dungeon. Given his stated disdain for magic, his fighter training, and the realative rarity of liches it's reasonable to assume that he wouldn't know about the phylactory.
:smallconfused: I don't think I see your point here. When Roy wen't after Xykon the first time, he was just a minor lich, who wasn't a serious threat, since he was sitting in some dungeon. Therefore, Roy hadn't had any strong obligation to destroy Xykon except of proving his father wrong.

So there was no way he could've phrased it to say, for example, "Your brother has kidnapped my sister!" or somesuch? We'd have the same information but Julia wouldn't seem like an afterthought.
It's kinda hard to think about what you're saying when you know that your sister is kept prisoner by dangerous murderer.

Teleport is a 5th level Wizard spell, requiring a minimum of 9th level. For every 3 levels after 9th, you can take one additional medium or smaller sized creatures along with you. Shojo's wizard teleports five medium and one small sized creatures along with him. 6*3=18, 18+9=27. So I was actually wrong, he's actually 27th level.
I belive it was one of these occasions when Giant bends the rules for the purposes of the story. And again: Roy's attitude towards NPCs is common in the OOTSverse, and in most D&D games. There's no way you can blame only Roy for this.

You could say that Roy's dismmisal indirectly caused the death of the wizard, since that's what caused him to get drunk to the point where he not only misfired the teleport but also wasn't able to defend himself against the roc.
You could say that, but only if you try to blame Roy for everything you can. How could Roy know that wizard will get so drunk that he won't be able to cast Teleport properly.

[Kreistor]

Teleport is a 5th level Wizard spell, requiring a minimum of 9th level. For every 3 levels after 9th, you can take one additional medium or smaller sized creatures along with you. Shojo's wizard teleports five medium and one small sized creatures along with him. 6*3=18, 18+9=27. So I was actually wrong, he's actually 27th level.

Beep... wrong answer.


This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination, which may be as distant as 100 miles per caster level. Interplanar travel is not possible. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent (see below) per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you. As with all spells where the range is personal and the target is you, you need not make a saving throw, nor is spell resistance applicable to you. Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and spell resistance.

It does not say "one per three levesl over 9th". It says one per three levels, so at L9, you can teleport yourself and 3 others.

An example of your interpretation is Scorching Ray...


You blast your enemies with fiery rays. You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage.
The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all bolts must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously.


Note that if there is an offset to where you begin calcualating extra effect compared to level, that offset is mentioned in the text. Since Teleport does not mention "beyond 9th level" the way Scorching Ray specifies "beyond 3rd level", there is no offset to Teleport's additional carrying capacity. It says one additional passenger for every three levels, so it means starting from L1.

[Spleen]

Since that oath was never fulfilled (and Xykon was still a threat to the world during it), no, it is not irrelevant. The best you can argue is that Roy reconfirmed his original oath once he learned that he had failed the first time.

Yes, yes it is irrelevent. The first oath to kill Xykon had no mention of Snarls or destabilizing fabrics of the universe. The first time he was asked to kill Xykon was, as far as Roy knew at the time, nothing more than his dad being selfish.



So there was no way he could've phrased it to say, for example, "Your brother has kidnapped my sister!" or somesuch? We'd have the same information but Julia wouldn't seem like an afterthought.

Christ you're desperate. Grasp at straws more.



How does being aware of rules and conventions necessarily follow from being leader?

Do you know what a leader is?



Are Nale and Thog any less evil for murdering citizens of Cliffport to tip off the CPPD? Are Xykon and Redcloak any less reprehensible for their cavalier attitude towards sacrificing minions? If we accept these jokes as indicative of character, why is Roy suddenly exempt from the same standard?

Because none of those characters receive the ire that Roy does for his substantially fewer faults. Because while people seem to be able to accept those characters in context of a comedic comic strip, people like you seem unable to extend the same courtesy to Roy.




Roy's actions in 425 came straight out of the Minimum Obligations Manuel...heaping praise on him is like giving out awards for attendance: why are we rewarding something you were supposed to do anyway?

Well, Elan is a veritable walking encylcopedia of genre clichés and heroic expectations, and he was impressed enough by Roy's actions. I'm gonna take his word over you.

Also, interesting that Roy abandoning Elan damns him forever but Roy protecting Elan somehow pisses you off more.

[Ampersand]

But that's a fundamental part of the strip. We often see the characters saying inappropriate thigns that players would say. It's funny because it breaks the fourth wall. This isn't just a fantasy comic, it's a roleplaying comic where we can see our own campaigns reflected in a fantasy setting. It is poking fun at us, the players, as much as the story world itself.

Except that "players" don't actually exist within context of the strip. The characters are all that are present in the strip, and the other characters react to what they say (even the blatently fourth wall stuff). If the "NPCs" can understand what's being said, there has to be an in-world context beyond just "that's how players talk" jokes.


Wow... that's... wow... indirectly... that's like... wow... how many people did you just put in jail that could never have known someone was going to die because they... wow... that's so... like... wrong. Can you be certain some off-hand comment on your part didn't result in someone dying? This is such an enormous reach, you'd have to have Mr. Fantastic's stretch arms to get there.

340: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html)
"Excuse me, sir, if you're done pretending I can't hear you because I'm a nameless NPC, I'll head off to that tavern there to get utterly drunk in response to my life's apparent meaninglessness."

"Huh? Oh, yeah, whatever, have fun."

In this case, it was clearly the "PCs' " indifference to his very existance that drove the wizard into the tavern.

Thank you for pointing out my error regarding teleport. I still regard treating a person who's 15th level (particularly one who doesn't use the "easy street" adventuring method to XP) as completely inconseqential to be pretty damn self-centered, though.


Belkar may be psycho, but Roy still owes as much loyalty to him as to Elan

How do you figure? Why show loyalty towards someone you know has none for you?


I don't think I see your point here.

Roy never completed the oath, and never rescinded his initial reasoning for taking it. At best he renewed it despite not wanting to because of Eugene, because of what he learned about the gates and what Xykon was trying to do.


It's kinda hard to think about what you're saying when you know that your sister is kept prisoner by dangerous murderer.

Hey, Roy is supposed to be smart, isn't he? And he couldn't consider Nale all that dangerous, since his plan was "We go in, whoop Nale, and rescue my sister. It'll take like an hour, tops"


There's no way you can blame only Roy for this.

True, but Roy is the only one who consistently and verbally expresses his disdain for NPCs.


The first time he was asked to kill Xykon was, as far as Roy knew at the time, nothing more than his dad being selfish.

Roy was never asked to take on the oath; Eugene specifically says he wants Julia to do it, and Roy accepts it in order to prove his father wrong.


Do you know what a leader is?

Yes. I just fail to see how the statments "Roy is the leader of the mercenary band known as the Order of the Stick" and "Roy has knowledge of D&D rules and conventions" are necessarily releated. Hell, lots of people who aren't leaders know about D&D game mechanics and conventions, like the dirt farmers. So what does Roy's being a leader have to do with them?


Because none of those characters receive the ire that Roy does for his substantially fewer faults.

Roy claims a higher standard for himself, particularly in his dealings with Eugene, Shojo and Miko, so I hold him to it.


Because while people seem to be able to accept those characters in context of a comedic comic strip, people like you seem unable to extend the same courtesy to Roy.

You seem to be confusing "like" with "accept". I don't like Roy, but I accept him as a charcter. Again I point out the complete lack of calls from me for him to be removed from the strip.



Also, interesting that Roy abandoning Elan damns him forever but Roy protecting Elan somehow pisses you off more

You seem to be the only one pissed off here. I'm not pissed off at Roy, I just don't see why we should be holding parades in his honor for fulfilling his minimum obligations as leader.

[Morty]

"Excuse me, sir, if you're done pretending I can't hear you because I'm a nameless NPC, I'll head off to that tavern there to get utterly drunk in response to my life's apparent meaninglessness."

"Huh? Oh, yeah, whatever, have fun."

In this case, it was clearly the "PCs' " indifference to his very existance that drove the wizard into the tavern.
We don't know what that wizard would do if Roy behaved otherwise. He may be alcocholic for himself. We don't know, so we can't blame Roy for this.

How do you figure? Why show loyalty towards someone you know has none for you?
Belkar has helped Roy more than once. That's enough for good leader to defend him when he needs it.

Roy never completed the oath, and never rescinded his initial reasoning for taking it. At best he renewed it despite not wanting to because of Eugene, because of what he learned about the gates and what Xykon was trying to do.
From Roy-Eugene dialog in Shojo's chambers I got the impression that Roy no longer cares about his or his fater's oath, and is going on his quest to stop Xykon from killing innocents.

Hey, Roy is supposed to be smart, isn't he? And he couldn't consider Nale all that dangerous, since his plan was "We go in, whoop Nale, and rescue my sister. It'll take like an hour, tops"
That was his plan after he had a few hours to think about it. But his first thought after recieving a message from Nale was probably "My gods, Nale is holding my sister prisoner and he's going to kill her!" or something similiar.

True, but Roy is the only one who consistently and verbally expresses his disdain for NPCs.
He's the leader of the party, so he's the one to talk to NPCs. We don't know how others would behave.

Roy claims a higher standard for himself, particularly in his dealings with Eugene, Shojo and Miko, so I hold him to it.
Claims a higher standard? What exactly do you mean by this?

[Oxymoron]

Roy is getting a lot of heat for not being a very good leader or nice to Elan or Miko. That`s ok, but he seems to be getting all the blame while the rest of the group remains blameless. That`s not fair, so lets take a look at Roys AND the rest of the groups shortcomings. (I`m not going to do a strip for strip summary, just some choice examples).

I`m not doing Belkar or Elans mistakes, because Belkar is a psychopath that does what he likes regardless of others safety or feelings, and Elan mostly does mistakes all the time. And I`m not doing Haley eighter, because she has a good reason to be greedy, and she hasen`t really done any major mistakes.

Roy being mean to Elan: Some of you are NEVER going to forgive Roy for abandoning Elan in the hands of the bandits. That`s ok, it could have resulted in Elans death so it was a horrible decision. But Roy did come to his senses, and went back after him. Bad call yes, but I would say he redeemed himself. Strangly, V has been even meaner towards Elan than Roy (zapping him with a cone og cold and making him cry), but somehow this is overlooked. Roy has never made Elan cry or done dmg to him (cone of cold does dmg), but still he is the bad guy. If you are going to forever hate Roy for disliking Elan, hate V the same.

Roy badmouthing Miko: He could be more polite yes, but Miko deserved at least to hear some hard truths about her rude behaviour towards the rest of the group. And besides, exept Durkon, did any of the rest of the group have anything nice to say about her? No, they hated her long before Roy, and V even amused him/herself about her potential death in the tavern explosion. So if you are going to hate Roy for his behavior, hate the rest of the Oots also. It`s only fair.

Roy ignoring the teleporting wizard: Yes, he did. Roy also ignored the Cliffport policemen shouting at him, but guess what? So did the rest of the group. If Roy is a bad leader, he certainly leads the bad.

Durkons major mistakes: His fear of trees have left his party in mortal danger twice. First he abandoned his friends in the hands of the bandits because he thought a tree was going to eat him, and second he ababdoned V to be clubbered to death by some animated trees. Yes, phobias can be hard to overcome, but not his greatest moments afterall. He also failed twice to help his comrades in battle when Miko attacked. He did nothing while she sliced the rest of the Oots to pieces before his very eyes. I Roy had done the same (even if he had the same reasons not to interfere) we would never hear the end of it.

Vs uncaring nature: When the dirtfarmers asked for help, V considered the whole mission as a waste of time. If he was the leader, he/she would have abandoned the old man to be eaten by the ogres and left the future widow in deep sorrow. This was just as bad as Roy wanting to leave Elan behind.

In conclusion: This is a comic where the characters are supposed to make HUGE stupid mistakes for a laugh or plotpoint. I also realize that people who disagree with me, sometimes exaggerate their opinions to get their message across (as I have done). The forum would be a much duller place without you. I however feel that Roy maybe gets more flamed than the rest of the Oots, and I would like him to be treated more fairly.

[Spleen]

In this case, it was clearly the "PCs' " indifference to his very existance that drove the wizard into the tavern.

Which is everyone, not just Roy.


Hey, Roy is supposed to be smart, isn't he? And he couldn't consider Nale all that dangerous, since his plan was "We go in, whoop Nale, and rescue my sister. It'll take like an hour, tops"

I still fail to see how all this somehow proves Roy only saved his sister because of Nale. Nale has specifically said he doesn't give a wererat's ass about Elan's friends, only Elan himself. Roy knew this, too, as he specifically has Elan stay back with Belkar to protect him, since he knew Nale wanted Elan and Elan alone.

Roy has no reason to want revenge on Nale; all that does is put himself, Elan, and the others in unnecessary danger and, as far as they knew, was just wasting valuable time. So please, how do you figure that Roy didn't go in to save his sister? Because he mentioned Nale verbally during the altercation?

True, but Roy is the only one who consistently and verbally expresses his disdain for NPCs.


Roy was never asked to take on the oath; Eugene specifically says he wants Julia to do it, and Roy accepts it in order to prove his father wrong.
The first time. The second time, he does it to protect innocent lives.


Yes. I just fail to see how the statments "Roy is the leader of the mercenary band known as the Order of the Stick" and "Roy has knowledge of D&D rules and conventions" are necessarily releated. Hell, lots of people who aren't leaders know about D&D game mechanics and conventions, like the dirt farmers. So what does Roy's being a leader have to do with them?

Because, being the leader, he speaks to NPCs the most. Also, take note that nobody else speaks up about his oh-so-horrible-Nazi-treatment of NPCs.



Roy claims a higher standard for himself, particularly in his dealings with Eugene, Shojo and Miko, so I hold him to it.

Sources, please. Where does Roy say he is better than everyone else? And please, especially show where Roy is being more full of himself than Miko.


You seem to be the only one pissed off here. I'm not pissed off at Roy, I just don't see why we should be holding parades in his honor for fulfilling his minimum obligations as leader.

Nobody's holding parades, I just don't see why you are instantly pouncing at the opportunity to badmouth Roy based on some very flimsy accusations of arrogance. And again, somehow Elan, who is more knowledgable of RPG/fantasy heroics requirements than any of us, was impressed enough at Roy's actions.

[slayerx]

Strangly, V has been even meaner towards Elan than Roy (zapping him with a cone og cold and making him cry), but somehow this is overlooked. Roy has never made Elan cry or done dmg to him (cone of cold does dmg), but still he is the bad guy. If you are going to forever hate Roy for disliking Elan, hate V the same.
Cone of cold does minor damage, and hurt feelings are things poeple get over... Abandoning Elen to a bunch of bandits could have lead to elan's DEATH... so no, i wouldn't say V has done worse to Elan

Not to mention, when speaking about being mean to Elan, you gotta consider how often Roy puts Elan down, like in the last page... as opposed to V who doesn't insult Elan nearly as much


Durkons major mistakes: His fear of trees have left his party in mortal danger twice. First he abandoned his friends in the hands of the bandits because he thought a tree was going to eat him, and second he ababdoned V to be clubbered to death by some animated trees. Yes, phobias can be hard to overcome, but not his greatest moments afterall. He also failed twice to help his comrades in battle when Miko attacked. He did nothing while she sliced the rest of the Oots to pieces before his very eyes. I Roy had done the same (even if he had the same reasons not to interfere) we would never hear the end of it.
Actually, can't blame someone too much for not being able to overcome such strong fears... and in the second fight, Durkon abandoned V but set himself to take down all of the trees with a powerful casting of weather control... Hell, with the trees immunity to all but physical and sonic damage, what he did turned out to be a much better choice... had he stayed they would have lost that fight

As for the fights agiasnt Miko... a cleric is not supposed to go agianst what he believes is the will of god. If God tells you not to fight the crazy Paladin, do you fight alongside your friends who are completely ignorant of the will of god, or do you do your god's will and convince them not to fight? His friends activly chose to do something that they knew Durkon did not want to do, and ignoring him went on to do it anyway... I mean, your friends wanted to do somethign you were completly against doing and was a bad idea, would you help them anyway? no you try and stop them. Just because his friends make a bad decision doesn't mean he has to be as stupid and go down with them. Oh and BTW, the giant gave an explaination of how the second fight agianst Miko went down, and Durkon, though not fighting Miko, was still healing his party.

[Oxymoron]

Agreed, Roy abandoning Elan to the bandits was very careless. However he did go back for him and here is the BIG ONE , he sacrificed his TROUSER TITAN to save Elan when Elan was dying of poison in the tavern. That one should really give him some credit.

Yes, V does minor dmg to people who bother him (like Belkar), but the point is V hurts people with dmg spells, Roy never hurts groupmembers with his weapon, still he is the bad guy. Trust me, if Elan bothered V half the much he bothered Roy, V would punish him regulary with Evard`s spiked tentacles of forced intrusion. And how can you say that hurt feelings are something people get over, when obvioulsly you have a problem with ROY putting Elan down. Aren`t hurt feelings supposed to go away?

Yes, Durkon have a phobia that he can`t really control. However, if Roy had the same problem would he get the same acceptence? No, he would be seen as incompetent and cowardly, unfit to be an adventurer. And weather control takes 10 minutes to cast. How V survived against a driud and his 4 animated trees for so long is beyond me. Normally he would be pulp by now, so not a good choice. And he also damaged V with massive sonic dmg. If he had stood his ground in the first place, both adventures would probably had beaten them without V getting his/her ass kicked.

Ok, I didn`t know he healed his party. Well, at least he did something.

[Kreistor]

Except that "players" don't actually exist within context of the strip. The characters are all that are present in the strip, and the other characters react to what they say (even the blatently fourth wall stuff). If the "NPCs" can understand what's being said, there has to be an in-world context beyond just "that's how players talk" jokes.

That presumes a single paradigm. There are multiple paradigms and part of the Giant's humour comes from switching between them.

Comic #1 is all about the characters talking about what their players are doing to them, which is clearly not a game world paradigm. There are also myriads of strips where the characters talk entirely in character. And strips where the players' voices clearly come through. This is no different from sitting at the gaming table. Players talk in character, casually switch to metagaming, joke about other players, and slip into side topics, all without announcing the paradigm. Paradigm control is one thing I try to push for at the table. My players have learned, but continue to forget, that when they make plans relative to new information, that is their characters talking, so if they do it in front of the wrong people.... Anyway, the point is that the strip mirrors reality from the outside. Where we have one reality but multiple paradigms at the table, the strip has one reality but multiple paradigms as well.


In this case, it was clearly the "PCs' " indifference to his very existance that drove the wizard into the tavern.

Except his face is angry, not sad, so this was clearly sarcasm.


Thank you for pointing out my error regarding teleport. I still regard treating a person who's 15th level (particularly one who doesn't use the "easy street" adventuring method to XP) as completely inconseqential to be pretty damn self-centered, though.

I don't disagree that Roy is self-centered, let's not get that wrong. The other PC's feel he is, at least. (I'm not going to look up the comic, but "Everything we've done has been about you" is in there someplace.) The comic centeres on Roy: he's got the highest appearance count for a reason.

The question is: can he overcome his self-centeredness? Clearly, yes. His reason presented to his father for continuing the quest against Xykon is entirely selfless. He wants to abandon the blood oath against Xykon to spite his father, but he takes up the yoke because the world is in danger. That is self-sacrifice.

Getting Elan down is another example of selfless behavior. Twist as he tries, he did not need to jump in front of Elan. Elan is 12th or 13th level like everyone else. That gives him plenty of HP to survive L1-4 hobgoblin archers. In terms of AC, they'll be close to even. (Armor+Dex = 7. 8. or 9, barring special materials, no shield for either.) His mind may want Elan replaced wiht someone more efffective. But Roy takes the hit anyway, overcoming his self-centeredness.


How do you figure? Why show loyalty towards someone you know has none for you?

Because they are doing something right. Despite that Belkar is reprehensible, he has participated in a number of good results.

Note that Roy's loyalty to Belkar is not blind. He's the guy behind the Mark of Justice. Roy is loyal to Belkar, but not blindly loyal.

Part of being a PC is, quite often, blind acceptance of the other PC's. It's especially common in DnD for players to operate under a blanket, "No attacking other PC's" rule, which prevents Roy from aggressively representing his alignment with respect to Belkar or the other PC's.

[Fineous Orlon]

... And, to veer this back on topic, if I ever feel that Roy does something to deserve praise I will (admittingly grudingly(sic)) give it to him. But I don't think protecting Elan from the arrows is praise worthy, because as a Lawful and Good person who happens to be the party leader, Roy throwing himself in front of the arrows isn't really going "above and beyond", particularly since he himself points out that the arrows are a mathmatically insignificant threat to him. Roy's actions in 425 came straight out of the Minimum Obligations Manuel...heaping praise on him is like giving out awards for attendance: why are we rewarding something you were supposed to do anyway?

I find a significant anti-Roy bias in much of your posting [surprise], so I thought I would ask one detailed question if you are still hanging in this thread:

I'm going to have to disagree with the whole 'catching arrows with your body to protect Elan' as part of some minimum obligation of Roy's. Clearly, arrow catching is the MOST dangerous way to protect Elan, yelling a warning to Elan would be the minimum obligation, Roy did that and then more. The comparison of how much damage each might take, and the healing required as an analysis by Roy [and Belkar] is supposed to reveal that Roy will save Elan, and then rationalize it away or fool himself about it. Roy is now actually approaching true heroism [will quickly act to save someone else at no small risk to himself], although like many heroes, he doesn't seem to be able to admit it.

So, the question: What is Roy supposed to do to protect Elan here that is not some 'minimalist and obligatory' action, exactly?

Catching arrows with your body is in fact going "above and beyond" in my book.

[Lizard Lord]

"He clearly states he only does this because he's bored."

Roy is lawful good. Sure he is excited to see some action, but ANY lawful good person would help them even if they weren't glad to see a new plot hook.

"To prove his father wrong and rub it in his face."

How exactly is he proving his father wrong and rubbing it in his face. They already said that Roy's alignment is lawful good a few times in the comic. ANY lawful good person would want to save the world despite any personal feelings they have towards the person that told them to do it.

"Which had at least as much to do with revenge on Nale as any danger Julia was in."

Where did you get this from? If this is about the stuff at the dungeon, Roy has had lots of people try to kill him at that point. Why would he hate the LG more the Redcloak, or the goblin kids, or the bandit father and daughter? Other wise sure he was mad as hell that Nale kidnapped his sister, wouldn't you be? But Roy wouldn't want this so called revenge on Nale if he didn't kidnap Julia in the first place.

"After abaonding him to begin with and leaving him for several hours, during which time Elan easily could've been killed, and probably would've been if Paw had been leader of the bandits and not Samantha (who was out to smite evil with good lucking guys)."

Cut the guy some slack. Roy himself pretty much admitted it was a horrible thing to do. He felt horrible and went back to do his best to make things right.

"Here, here, here and here. All demonstrative of the contempt Roy holds everyone else in the world in. The last one is particularly damning...here we have an epic level wizard (it's been a while since I've run the numbers, but you need to be something like 24th level to Teleport six other people) and Roy still completely brushes him off. The Cliffport PD Chief sums it up nicely herehttp://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0360.html"

Please note that none of them paid attention to the Cheif or the mage. I see these more as jokes about how the PC's generaly treat NPC's. It is simply that Roy is more vocal. Also I think he has a right to be upset at Shojo. It may have been for the greater good, but no one lokes being used (especially when said use means they had to be dragged in chains for miles by a person who hates them.)

[Gitman00]

Cone of cold does minor damage, and hurt feelings are things poeple get over... Abandoning Elen to a bunch of bandits could have lead to elan's DEATH... so no, i wouldn't say V has done worse to Elan

I can't get to the SRD from this computer, but if I recall correctly, Cone of Cold does 1d6 damage per caster level, max 15d6, with a reflex save for half damage. V cast it on Elan in #41 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html), when (s)he would have been around 11th level. 11-66 damage, give or take a few, is hardly minor.

[BisectedBrioche]

If Roy's apparently so arrogant, why did he assume it was his fault the moment he found out Hayley lost her voice?

[Morty]

If Roy's apparently so arrogant, why did he assume it was his fault the moment he found out Hayley lost her voice?

Well, that was probably just to feed his enormous ego.

[BisectedBrioche]

Well, that was probably just to feed his enormous ego.

Ah, of course.

[Demented]

For a guy who thinks the world revolves around him, when V told him Haley's aphasia was not a result of his actions, he took the revelation surprisingly well. Group hug for Roy! Realization is the... er... eighteenth step!

- Characters-On-Whose-Shoulders-The-Fate-Of-The-Entire-World-Rests-Rather-Heavily Anonymous

[Ampersand]

We don't know what that wizard would do if Roy behaved otherwise. He may be alcocholic for himself. We don't know, so we can't blame Roy for this.

Possible, yes, but that makes a big assumption about the wizard's character. All we know, from what he said, is that he resents being treated like he's not there and got drunk as a result. And that he wanted to be a baker.


Belkar has helped Roy more than once. That's enough for good leader to defend him when he needs it.

I guess we'll just have to disagree. To me, loyalty isn't just about helping; it's showing loyalty in return, and the cloest we've seen to that from Belkar is wanting to keep Elan around because he likes jokes in the "Great Cleavage" vein.


He's the leader of the party, so he's the one to talk to NPCs. We don't know how others would behave.

We've seen Elan a few times (notably the goblin teenagers)


Claims a higher standard? What exactly do you mean by this?

What I was getting at was that was the assumption that, by passing judgement on Miko (the infamous 251, particularly the "you're not really lawful good" bit), Shojo, and Eugene (pretty much the entire post-trail section), Roy was setting himself up as a moral authority. To me it seems hypocritical of him to on the one hand feel that he has the ability to call someone immoral when he's angry at them (or just doesn't like them), and then turn around and act in a manner arguably worse than that. As an example, She Who Must Not Be Named may be feel justified in pulling rank to treat people like dirt, but at least in order to do so she must acknowledge them. Roy, on the other hand, will often completely ignore the existance of NPCs unless it's convient or somehow relevant to him.


Where we have one reality but multiple paradigms at the table, the strip has one reality but multiple paradigms as well.

I admit that I hadn't thought about it that way. I naturally tend to more literalist interpretations.


I find a significant anti-Roy bias in much of your posting [surprise], so I thought I would ask one detailed question if you are still hanging in this thread:

Trying to keep up, but it's tough with half a dozen people to reply to.


So, the question: What is Roy supposed to do to protect Elan here that is not some 'minimalist and obligatory' action, exactly?

I consider it minimalist becausehe arrows don't represent a significant threat to either Elan or Roy. There's no real gesture invovled because unless all three archers roll high on damage or he suffers a critical hit (extremely unlikely with a bow at long range, due to the penalties to a confirmation roll) Roy likely won't even notice those hit points are gone.

To be honest, this is the beginning of the battle...the opportunity for a truly heroic gesture hasn't arrived yet. Three arrows from the opening salvo? Like Roy said himself, he has the opportunity to chug a healing potion or get a Cure Moderate Wounds and he'll be fine. Pushing Elan out of the way of a Fireball after he's been fighting off the hobgoblins that breeched the walls? That, I think, would be a praise-worthy gesture on Roy's part, since it carries significant personal risk.

In any case, I have a proposition for ya'll. I have to admit that I'm impressed at the number of people defending Mr Greenhilt from my accusations...and, like I mentioned to Fineious, I just don't have the time to properly reply to ya'll in anything resembling a consistent manner. So I'm willing to meet you halfway; I'm still not convinced that Roy is the great guy you all think he is, but I'm willing to go back and re-evaulate him. And I'm willing to knock off the major Roy-bashing while I do this (I say "major" because I want to reserve the right to laugh at him in a cruel manner if he out smarts himself like he did at the Oracle again :smalltongue: ). Does that sound acceptable?

[ziggurat]

Sure thing!

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0211.html), here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html), here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html). All demonstrative of the contempt Roy holds everyone else in the world in. The last one is particularly damning...here we have an epic level wizard (it's been a while since I've run the numbers, but you need to be something like 24th level to Teleport six other people) and Roy still completely brushes him off. The Cliffport PD Chief sums it up nicely herehttp://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0360.html


Clearly The Giant is parodying players' attitudes towards NPCs (not just in D&D, but in basically all games that involve them). Use them and discard them.

It's like Belkar's ludicrously violent suggestions -- they're jokes, not serious statements about the character's personality.

Roy is an okay guy, the straight man. And his reactions are entirely justified.

[Oxymoron]

Truly Ampersand, you must have taken the endurance feat to fight us Roy worshippers for so long. I see by accepting Roy, you have grown as a person and your greater reach (metagaming) towards the rest of us, has made this forum a more friendly place (DC 25 diplomacy check). Now I must cry myself to sleep for being the greatest nerd ever.

[Sky_Schemer]

In any case, I have a proposition for ya'll. I have I'm still not convinced that Roy is the great guy you all think he is, but I'm willing to go back and re-evaulate him.

You might find this easier if you don't try to remove the context from the character. As was said earlier, Roy is the straight-man, and this is a comedic strip. You can't evaluate Roy without taking this into consideration. The straight-man has a very specific purpose, and that is to react to the outrageousness that takes place around him. Except that, for true comedy, those reactions have to sometimes be larger than life while still staying true to life. This more than anything is the source of his cynicism, frustration and occasional anger.

And most importantly, it gives the other characters something to bounce off of, because the outrageous cannot exist without the sane. Otherwise, there's no context for any of their actions, and you just get a bunch of wacky characters living in wackyland, which just isn't funny.

[Kreistor]

To me, loyalty isn't just about helping; it's showing loyalty in return

That's good for you, but unfortunately for you, loyalty returned is not a requirement to justify loyalty as a positive character trait. Loyalty despite betrayal has been, and always will be, a part of honour.


I consider it minimalist becausehe arrows don't represent a significant threat to either Elan or Roy.

That makes the situation minamilist, not the actions Roy took. If the threat to Elan was not significant (something we can't know for certain), but Roy took him out of harms way anyway, then he really did something completely unnecessary. He took the hit even though he knew he didn't have to. That's not minimalist: it's self-sacrificing.

If Elan has the same AC as Roy, then Roy did nothing to change the amount of damage dealt to the group. Theoretically, Roy and Elan would have a similar AC, since Roy does not use a Shield -- Armour + Dex = 8 or 9 (except for a couple 7's that would be obvious in the avatars). That means he didn't do it for the group: there was no net gain in terms of group resource consumption. All he did was take damage for Elan. Roy would be more likely to survive the damage, thanks to Fighter HP, but if there was no threat to Elan in the first place, then there wasn't even a need for that.

Thus, Roy taking the damage was just a choice on his part to prevent someone else pain. That's not minimalist: it is heroic.

[Kreistor]

And most importantly, it gives the other characters something to bounce off of, because the outrageous cannot exist without the sane.

Let's ask some Slaadi whether they agree with that claim...

"Fish!"

"Look, cows!"

"Antidisestablishmentarianism."

Uh, yeah... uhm, there you have it. What do you have? I wouldn't have a clue.

[Kreistor]

Oh, Ampersand... I have a new quote for you...

Roy in #263 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0263.html) speaking about freeing Belkar to take them with him, just before Miko arrives and everyone goes back to their cells...

"Then... sigh... then I guess we should find belkar and spring him."

Elan: "Awwww... do we HAVE to?"

"I'm not going to let him be executed by Shojo. I owe him that much for helping to defeat Qykon. And I'm not going to take the chance that he's released into the world without my supervision. I owe that to everyone else everywhere."

Roy is clearly evidencing that he doesn't really want to let Belkar out, he just feels Belkar deserves it for past acts that have helped Roy (at this point, Roy still believes Xykon exterminated). And you now have Roy's reason for ensuring he does not lose sight of Belkar. It is to control him to protect others. That is self-sacrificing behavior on Roy's part.

[BisectedBrioche]

I hope they catch the stick figure fighter who touched Ampersand as a child <_< >_>.

[Morty]

Possible, yes, but that makes a big assumption about the wizard's character. All we know, from what he said, is that he resents being treated like he's not there and got drunk as a result. And that he wanted to be a baker.
Still, it's nothing we can blame Roy for. It's the inevitable fate of NPCs in most games to be ignored by PCs.

I guess we'll just have to disagree. To me, loyalty isn't just about helping; it's showing loyalty in return, and the cloest we've seen to that from Belkar is wanting to keep Elan around because he likes jokes in the "Great Cleavage" vein.
Alright, then we have just different views on what loyalty is.

What I was getting at was that was the assumption that, by passing judgement on Miko (the infamous 251, particularly the "you're not really lawful good" bit), Shojo, and Eugene (pretty much the entire post-trail section), Roy was setting himself up as a moral authority. To me it seems hypocritical of him to on the one hand feel that he has the ability to call someone immoral when he's angry at them (or just doesn't like them), and then turn around and act in a manner arguably worse than that. As an example, She Who Must Not Be Named may be feel justified in pulling rank to treat people like dirt, but at least in order to do so she must acknowledge them. Roy, on the other hand, will often completely ignore the existance of NPCs unless it's convient or somehow relevant to him.
I can't see how Roy sets himself as moral authority. He just doesn't like when someone tells him what to do and otherwise orders him around- which indeed makes me think that he's getting less Lawful over the course of the strip- and I can't see how he 'acts in manner arguable than that'. As for 'infamous' #251- well, without derailing this thread into Mikoland, I'll just say that what Roy said was obvious to anyone with any understanding of how alignments should work.

In any case, I have a proposition for ya'll. I have to admit that I'm impressed at the number of people defending Mr Greenhilt from my accusations...and, like I mentioned to Fineious, I just don't have the time to properly reply to ya'll in anything resembling a consistent manner. So I'm willing to meet you halfway; I'm still not convinced that Roy is the great guy you all think he is, but I'm willing to go back and re-evaulate him. And I'm willing to knock off the major Roy-bashing while I do this (I say "major" because I want to reserve the right to laugh at him in a cruel manner if he out smarts himself like he did at the Oracle again ). Does that sound acceptable?
I don't know about others, but I've never claimed that Roy is 'great guy'. He's a decent person, but not great- he's Lawful after all. It's just that you present him as arrogant jerk, which is not true.

[nocker]

Xykon doesn't treat people like they are inferior to him? He treats his minnions like slaves and sacrifices them just because he is bored. If that isn't treating people like they are inferior then I don't know what is.
But then, he gloats on it. Xykon and Belkar are more in peace with their inner natures than Miko will ever be.

[kolvar]

Besides, how many black characters are leaders in a fantasy world, much less a webcomic?

If you count SF as Fantasy: Benjamin Sisko (and he is even big and bald)

[Gitman00]

In any case, I have a proposition for ya'll. I have to admit that I'm impressed at the number of people defending Mr Greenhilt from my accusations...and, like I mentioned to Fineious, I just don't have the time to properly reply to ya'll in anything resembling a consistent manner. So I'm willing to meet you halfway; I'm still not convinced that Roy is the great guy you all think he is, but I'm willing to go back and re-evaulate him. And I'm willing to knock off the major Roy-bashing while I do this (I say "major" because I want to reserve the right to laugh at him in a cruel manner if he out smarts himself like he did at the Oracle again :smalltongue: ). Does that sound acceptable?
Acceptable, indeed, and appreciated. While you're researching, factor this into your evaluation of Roy's attitude toward NPCs: Celia is an NPC. It's quite possible, upon going to law school, that she even has a couple levels in Expert. :smallsmile:

[hanzo66]

Personally I like Roy.

I like a sarcastic character and I like a smart character with a noble streak but isn't a complete zealot about it (like Miko, but that's another thing).

Sure he may not like the party immensely, but it's not a particularly easy job to be the leader of the Order of the Stick. Sure they're not incompetent but they are rather dysfunctional. He may sort of hate both Belkar and Elan (in truth they are rather hard characters to work with) but he does at least have a sense or responsibility towards them. Ultimately he's a decent person with strong standards but with a cynical streak due to being with unusual and dysfunctional characters.

Also remember. Very rarely are NPCs important enough to be cared about. If you want truly horrible treatments of NPCs then 8-Bit Theater's the way to go, with the "heroes" often commiting mass murders and at some points genocide.