Combat Maneuvers

[MadGrady]

So my group recently moved to 5e from Pathfinder, and so as we are learning the new system, we had a discussion about combat manuevers.

Combat maneuvers in Pathfinder were a convoluted mess, so I was
relieved to see that 5e condensed them into an easy skill contest for Grapple and Shove, and then the Fighter Battle Champion gets additional manevuer abilities. So the question we had was how do non-fighters do maneuvers (disarm being the primary one for our discussion).

My initital thought was that it works the same as grapple - Stength (Athletics) roll vs target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. Every 5 you beat their score by, knock their weapon 5ft away.

This seemed in line with the other maneuvers, and still allowed the Fighter to stand out by still getting to add their weapon damage to the attack.

It was also tossed around that perhaps the monk could substitute their Dex (Acro) check for the "attack" roll as long as all other martial arts conditions were met (unarmed or monk weapon, etc).

So my question to you all is:

1. How have you done combat maneuvers in your games?
and
2. What complications/balance issues did you find that you didn't expect? (I.e. was something too powerful, or too weak)

Thanks all!!!

[JRutterbush]

I'd treat disarm as opposed attack rolls, since it doesn't really seem to make much sense to use Athletics or Acrobatics when all you're doing is basically attacking their weapon... or, more realistically, attacking the hand holding their weapon, since just hitting an opponent's weapon with yours isn't likely to knock it out of their hands unless you're quite a bit stronger than them.

[Shining Wrath]

A Monk should have the ability to snatch the weapon and retain it in his hand if he wins the contested roll by enough.

But I think he needs to win both a strength roll and a dexterity roll; no matter how much leverage the monk obtains with a successful dexterity roll (he's got a good grip on the weapon and is bending it away from the holder's knuckles), if he's trying to get a battle axe from a Frost Giant, he needs to have some strength as well.

[JRutterbush]

A Monk should have the ability to snatch the weapon and retain it in his hand if he wins the contested roll by enough.
They do: picking an item up counts as a free interaction for the round.


But I think he needs to win both a strength roll and a dexterity roll; no matter how much leverage the monk obtains with a successful dexterity roll (he's got a good grip on the weapon and is bending it away from the holder's knuckles), if he's trying to get a battle axe from a Frost Giant, he needs to have some strength as well.
Generally, disarming is not done by just grabbing an opponent's weapon and wresting it away. The most common method would be to strike or cut the opponents fingers, hand or wrist in order to make them drop the weapon. That's why an attack roll (even a Dexterity attack using a finesse weapon) is what makes the most sense for a disarm.

With an unarmed disarm, however, you can definitely use leverage over raw power in order to yank a weapon out of someone's grip. It's the same basis as with a lot of wrestling or other martial arts holds: it doesn't matter how strong you are, if your opponent is the one with the leverage, you lose.

Personally, I would rule that if you have a target grappled, you can make another grapple check to take their weapon. Of course, since grappling only uses Strength (Athletics) if you're attacking, that also solves your issues... at least until the Grappling Finesse feat comes out down the line (which I really hope it does: I'd love to recreate my Dexterity-based vanara grappling monk from Pathfinder).

[MadGrady]

But I think he needs to win both a strength roll and a dexterity roll; no matter how much leverage the monk obtains with a successful dexterity roll (he's got a good grip on the weapon and is bending it away from the holder's knuckles), if he's trying to get a battle axe from a Frost Giant, he needs to have some strength as well.

This has been my point that I have been arguing with my players. It seems to me that someone with a really weak strenth score is just unable to pull some of these off.

I really like what was said about the attack roll. That makes a lot of sense to me, and solves some of the issues my players were having too

You may have leverage, but you still have to have the strength to pull the lever

[Person_Man]

My house rule for a Disarm check is that if you win the opposed Athletics vs. Athletics or Acrobatics check, the item held by your enemy (weapon, shield, wand, whatever) is always knocked across the room to a location that is inconvenient to the creature disarmed. If your free action is still available and you had a free hand at the time you made the attack, you can take it into your hand instead.

The player is giving up damage and the opportunity to impose Grapple or Prone, which are meaningful status conditions, so it should be worthwhile. It's also fun, and that's the most important thing for me. Its also worth noting that enemies can attempt to Disarm players using the same rules, though I only do so when it makes sense in the context of the fluff. (For example, if they're fighting an NPC who fancies himself a swashbuckler or a master swordsman or whatever).

As a side note, I house rule that the Champion Fighter 7 Remarkable Athlete class ability adds your Proficiency bonus to all Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution Checks. (Instead of 1/2 the bonus to things that don't already have Proficiency added to them plus a cruddy jump bonus). This includes Initiative, but not Attacks or Saves, which are not Checks. If you already have Proficiency in a Skill, then you're essentially getting Expertise for those Str/Dex/Con Skills. We had a player briefly stick with the Champion Fighter he used from the Basic boxed game module, until it became too boring and repetitive for him. I also rule that Improved Critical allows the Champion Fighter to bypass any defensive ability (Resistance/Uncanny Dodge/etc) short of Immunity on a Critical Hit, and Superior Critical also allows you to make one additional combat maneuver (shove, grapple, disarm, etc) against the same target (if they survive) when you make a Critical Hit, and Survivor works every round regardless of your hit point total. So if someone else wanted to pick it up in the future out of a desire to play a simple class, I'm happy to just give them better raw numbers for the useful things that they can do well.

[MadGrady]

You guys have definitely given me great points to consider. Thanks everyone for the input!