How would you make blasting worthwhile?

[aleucard]

By almost all accounts, the type of spell most hosed as a category is the direct damage spell, known collectively as blasting. I'm interested in if there's any way, whether homebrew ideas, specific Gentleman's Agreement style house rules, or other things already in the 3.5 library that could salvage it into being something useful in its own right, and not just in the form of Mailman and all the various things it implies. At the moment, my best idea would be to allow more 'castings' of such spells per slot, or make it such that elemental damage (which is difficult to find outside of casting, at least in these amounts) has certain rider effects based on how much elemental damage the target takes (though this has the problem of shifting the focus from damage itself, but it might help with verisimilitude). What things come to mind for you?

[Venger]

the problem with blasting isn't that it's completely without merit. the problem is it violates the gentleman's agreement by stepping on the toes of the mundanes. dealing HP damage is all the party brute can do, so it's not nice to take that away from him. instead the thoughtful wizard buffs him with spells to make him meaner (polymorph, enlarge person, etc) or doing things he can't (BFC, inflicting statuses on enemies, etc)

on its own, blast spells are more than capable of taking out enemies. if you're interested in evocation, check out master specialist, it's pretty cute.

[Snowbluff]

It's worthwhile in situations where you can't get a debuff to land. Damage stacks with things getting killed.

You can also use it to one shot things very easily, if you optimize it. I'd say it's fine where it is.

[nedz]

Remove Evasion: In AD&D it was available to Monks only (and then at 8th level IIRC)
Remove the damage caps and increase the damage. HPs have increased since the old days, fireball damage hasn't.
Make the volume constant so that they will fill a larger area in tight places.

It's still only damage though, can't really fix that; though you could add riders such as the level 4 Orbs have.

[Red Fel]

The reason direct damage (e.g. blasting) is seen as an inferior use of spellcaster resources is simple. On the one hand, unless your blasting insta-kills something, it generally suffers no negative consequence for having less-than-full HP. There are only three HP states, really: positive, -10 to 0, and dead. And if your blasting doesn't drop it from positive to dead, you have made no immediate impact on combat. On the other hand, casters can do so much with their spells, be it altering terrain conditions, applying debuffs, summoning reinforcements, or otherwise acting as a force multiplier for other characters. It seems almost wasteful to use those resources on an action with no immediate impact.

Now, non-casters basically have the one option. Hurt things until they die. Some may use tricks, like trips or grapples or poisons, and those can add flexibility and control. But ultimately their primary resource is HP damage. But a caster? A caster can do anything, so why do something so generally ineffective?

Coming back around to the question: How would I make blasting more effective? Two methods come to mind. One, use a system that allows you to attach debuffs to blasting. Some of Warlock's blast shapes do this, and PF's Words of Power mechanic allows you to do this as well. Two, make HP damage count. If a character takes increasing penalties as it suffers increasing damage, that damage becomes valuable both for its ability to turn an enemy into a corpse, and for its ability to apply soft debuffs (via damage).

[Troacctid]

Blasting is fine as is. It does a ton of damage, does it at long range, affects multiple targets, doesn't require an attack roll, and (barring evasion) deals damage even on a successful save.

Saying blasting needs a buff is like saying Bards are underpowered because they only get spells up to 6th level.

[Psyren]

the problem with blasting isn't that it's completely without merit. the problem is it violates the gentleman's agreement by stepping on the toes of the mundanes. dealing HP damage is all the party brute can do, so it's not nice to take that away from him. instead the thoughtful wizard buffs him with spells to make him meaner (polymorph, enlarge person, etc) or doing things he can't (BFC, inflicting statuses on enemies, etc)

on its own, blast spells are more than capable of taking out enemies. if you're interested in evocation, check out master specialist, it's pretty cute.

This - and also, if everyone in the party is focused on damage that just leaves the group middling or even below par in other areas.

[aleucard]

Alright. So, to translate, the majority opinion on how to make blasting worthwhile is to give martials things to do well besides damage so the casters can be blasters without stepping on toes. At the very least, that's what needs done first. Can you give any ideas that focus on the caster in isolation (read: whatever blaster type is assumed to be on their lonesome unless their type of blasting needs others, though that's more buff than blast)? Blasting is still pretty hosed even without other players getting involved. This is mainly to bring it up to the par currently set by other types of casting, not to really balance it against other classes. Doing that without taking black marker to entire books needs those other classes to be modified first, anyway.

[eggynack]

I think the best solution is just having more blasting spells with useful secondary effects. You don't really need a whole underlying system for it. Just make the spells less like fireball and more like boreal wind, and people will cast more blasting spells. The only real issue is that the line is thin between a blasting spell with a neat rider and a not-blasting spell with a damage rider.

[Asrrin]

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1765181

The Mailman is excellent at doing blasting, does it extremely effectively, and still has spell slots left over to do other magicky things like battlefield control.

Blasting is fine as is, you just need to specialize into it.

If you want to buff up Evocation to make it a more attractive school, your best bet is to change the school of the Orb line of spells from Conjuration to Evocation. Solves a lot of problems.

[Extra Anchovies]

A quick way to make HP loss's effects more gradual:

When someone is at 75% or less of their max HP, they get -1 on attack rolls, saves, and checks.

When someone is at 50% or less of their max HP, they instead get -2.

When someone is at 25% or less of their max HP, they get -4.

[Summerstorm]

The reason direct damage (e.g. blasting) is seen as an inferior use of spellcaster resources is simple. On the one hand, unless your blasting insta-kills something, it generally suffers no negative consequence for having less-than-full HP. There are only three HP states, really: positive, -10 to 0, and dead. And if your blasting doesn't drop it from positive to dead, you have made no immediate impact on combat. On the other hand, casters can do so much with their spells, be it altering terrain conditions, applying debuffs, summoning reinforcements, or otherwise acting as a force multiplier for other characters. It seems almost wasteful to use those resources on an action with no immediate impact.


Hm, weirdly i have pretty much the opposite experience.

Now, just basing this on my group here and their usual campaigns...

Doing something ELSE than blasting random crap usually is more of a hit-or-miss. For example hold person, or Evard's Tentacle soup, or grease, or an sweet illusion or something often just comes out to: Yeah, he saved, done. All you did was burn a spellslot and a turn.

A Measly Fireball is for most foes at least half damage. Something going for ranged touch is unlikely to fail etc.. Damage has the advantage: It stacks with what your team is doing (mostly)

Of course there are the save AND suck or just alterations/controls which can not be resisted, but often those are circumstantial or would hinder yourself and your team the same. (Rock to mud to collapse the roof unto your enemies... Yeah, now enjoy digging through the stuff to get to the next room, for example. Oh, or those DAMN web-spells)

I read the term "Schrödingers Wizard" and found that very appropriate: It's the point that somehow everyone assumes the Wizard to have ALL spells prepared and can do anything at any moment. I just found that "Blowing **** up and killing dudes" is a pretty handy and often needed and never a wasted slot.

Eh, so: Blasting is fine. (As fine as it gets with the whole magic-system in this game) - problem is overhyped and WAY too gigantic arsenal of spells.

[Venger]

Hm, weirdly i have pretty much the opposite experience.

Now, just basing this on my group here and their usual campaigns...

Doing something ELSE than blasting random crap usually is more of a hit-or-miss. For example hold person, or Evard's Tentacle soup, or grease, or an sweet illusion or something often just comes out to: Yeah, he saved, done. All you did was burn a spellslot and a turn.

A Measly Fireball is for most foes at least half damage. Something going for ranged touch is unlikely to fail etc.. Damage has the advantage: It stacks with what your team is doing (mostly)

Of course there are the save AND suck or just alterations/controls which can not be resisted, but often those are circumstantial or would hinder yourself and your team the same. (Rock to mud to collapse the roof unto your enemies... Yeah, now enjoy digging through the stuff to get to the next room, for example. Oh, or those DAMN web-spells)

I read the term "Schrödingers Wizard" and found that very appropriate: It's the point that somehow everyone assumes the Wizard to have ALL spells prepared and can do anything at any moment. I just found that "Blowing **** up and killing dudes" is a pretty handy and often needed and never a wasted slot.

Eh, so: Blasting is fine. (As fine as it gets with the whole magic-system in this game) - problem is overhyped and WAY too gigantic arsenal of spells.
well, your problem is that you're casting spells with saves.

[Extra Anchovies]

well, your problem is that you're casting spells with saves.

Indeed. But then, disallowing saving throws is a good thing to have in any casting build; whether they're self-buffs or Orb spells, the most reliable things you can cast are the ones that you know will do their job.

[eggynack]

well, your problem is that you're casting spells with saves.
Nah, spells with saves are fine. The issue is when a save makes the spell do nothing. He even included a counterexample in his own post, in the form of black tentacles. Even if every enemy in the area makes their check, you still halve movement for everyone in the area, and you're still forcing folks to either avoid the region for the duration of the spell or risk being grappled. That's not even the best example, especially when you consider stuff like web.

[Red Fel]

Doing something ELSE than blasting random crap usually is more of a hit-or-miss. For example hold person, or Evard's Tentacle soup, or grease, or an sweet illusion or something often just comes out to: Yeah, he saved, done. All you did was burn a spellslot and a turn.

Well...


well, your problem is that you're casting spells with saves.

Indeed. But then, disallowing saving throws is a good thing to have in any casting build; whether they're self-buffs or Orb spells, the most reliable things you can cast are the ones that you know will do their job.

What they said.

The thing is, HP damage is like a spell with a guaranteed save - namely, HP. As long as you don't drop the enemy below 0, it's a guaranteed save against disability. They don't even have to roll for it. If I have a spell that reliably deals 20 damage, and I cast it on an enemy with 150 HP, he automatically succeeds his save versus disability, without having to roll. Worse is that many blasting spells are also subject to SR. At least a debuff requires some save, which means there's a chance of success.

And as Venger and Anchovies mentioned, clever casters stock up on spells that don't allow for SR or saves. That means you're guaranteed to get something out of it. Further, not every spell needs to be cast on an enemy to disable them. For example, Solid Fog slows a group of enemies to a crawl, grants concealment, renders ranged weaponry ineffective, and imposes penalties on melee attacks. And it does so without allowing for a save. You don't even cast it on a target; you cast it on an area. And that's just one of many, many examples.

I'm not saying that HP damage is bad. If you can reliably drop an enemy into negatives in one hit, it's great. And certainly, some encounters can only be resolved with sufficient quantities of HP damage; in those cases, every little bit helps. What I'm saying is that, as a caster, you have a larger toolbox at your disposal, and it often seems a shame to spend it on actions which provide no immediate benefit. Because immediate benefit is the name of the game1. An enemy who is disabled this round is an enemy who is no longer a threat. An enemy who is disabled three rounds from now is still a threat in the intervening rounds.

1 Technically, the name of the game is Dungeons & Dragons. Or Pathfinder. I was being rhetorical.

[Troacctid]

Thing is, even if all you're doing is damage, how many bad guys are you going to fight that can do more damage than a fully-powered Wizard tossing out a fireball or acid orb every round? Chances are, even if you let them do their thing, you'll kill them before they kill you. A good DM will vary encounters so that blasting doesn't solve every fight, but in a game where you're just up against a random encounter table, you don't necessarily need to get clever.

[Venger]

Nah, spells with saves are fine. The issue is when a save makes the spell do nothing. He even included a counterexample in his own post, in the form of black tentacles. Even if every enemy in the area makes their check, you still halve movement for everyone in the area, and you're still forcing folks to either avoid the region for the duration of the spell or risk being grappled. That's not even the best example, especially when you consider stuff like web.

right. picking spells with saves that are saveneg isn't great.

[Sam K]

Remove Evasion: In AD&D it was available to Monks only (and then at 8th level IIRC)
Remove the damage caps and increase the damage. HPs have increased since the old days, fireball damage hasn't.
Make the volume constant so that they will fill a larger area in tight places.

It's still only damage though, can't really fix that; though you could add riders such as the level 4 Orbs have.

Because rogues have so much going for them already? :)

Op, google the mailman build, it's a sorcerer build that really takes blasting to its limit. I think that the problem with blasting is that in the campaigns where it's viable, you're not allowed to build a good blaster because the REALLY BIG NUMBERS tend to make people in low-mid optimized games uneasy. Grease is fine, though. At the point where you can make a mailman, hitpoint damage isn't viable except for maybe one ubercharger (who makes sure that anything that can be stabbed dies when it becomes stabbable).

[Psyren]

Nah, spells with saves are fine. The issue is when a save makes the spell do nothing. He even included a counterexample in his own post, in the form of black tentacles. Even if every enemy in the area makes their check, you still halve movement for everyone in the area, and you're still forcing folks to either avoid the region for the duration of the spell or risk being grappled. That's not even the best example, especially when you consider stuff like web.

This. Or if the spell does have a save negates, it should hit multiple targets so that at least one is likely to fail, and the effect should be strong enough so that taking one out will affect the battle (e.g. not dazzle.) Sleep and Color Spray are good spells for instance because they're probably going to hit at least one enemy.

[The Insaniac]

The big problem that I've found with blasting is that so many creatures have layered defenses for the vast majority of the "classic" blasts. fireball, for instance, allows a save and SR and fire resistance and having a ton of hp. It's the same problem that phantasmal killer has. There are too many points of failure. Compare to stinking cloud where (as long as you don't drop it on something immune) has only one point of failure (and just for laughs, might force multiple saves).

[Psyren]

The big problem that I've found with blasting is that so many creatures have layered defenses for the vast majority of the "classic" blasts. fireball, for instance, allows a save and SR and fire resistance and having a ton of hp. It's the same problem that phantasmal killer has. There are too many points of failure. Compare to stinking cloud where (as long as you don't drop it on something immune) has only one point of failure (and just for laughs, might force multiple saves).

And even if they succeed, it can still be used to block vision.

But fireball isn't totally useless. A long range spell that can wreck wooden objects has its uses. Stinking Cloud won't help you if you're trying to sink an enemy ship before they sink yours for instance.

[aleucard]

Here's a thought for you. What sort of rider effects do you think would be fitting for the various elemental damages, and how should they be tracked? Just keeping a tally of how much damage a given target has taken of each type is the simplest, but is there anything better?

For things to actually do..... How about fire effectively giving a Constitution penalty that affects everything but HP, Cold hitting Dexterity and lowering the target's speeds, electricity screwing with a target's attack bonuses and giving some ASF from twitchy fingers, and acid impacting the target's defenses? Probably not the best of lists, but I was trying to think of things that are related without being overpowered. Maybe save that for when you do a significant portion of the target's HP in that type of damage (if the target's past the threshold, they have to make a relevant save every time they're hit with that type of damage while over).

[Seharvepernfan]

In my houserules, I implemented a "damage wounds" system, which makes damage a debuff in itself.

Here: The more a character is injured, the harder it gets for him to fight on. There are three different damage steps which brings penalties to all throws, checks, and attack rolls based upon the relation of total hitpoints to suffered damage. They also take a penalty to their speed (4/5 speed means every 5th square moved into costs an additional square of movement to move into). This represents pain, shock, and inhibitory structural damage.

75-100% HP, no penalty (hurt)
50-75% HP, -1, 4/5 speed (injured)
25-50% HP, -2, ¾ speed (wounded)
0-25% HP, -3, 2/3 speed (mauled)

Example: A knight with 40 total hitpoints takes a heavy hit by an ogre’s club, dealing him 11 points of damage. His hipoints sink under the ¾ margin, and he suffers a –1 penalty to his rolls and a penalty to his speed.

Whenever a creature suffers more than 50% of its total max hit points through a single hit, it must make a Fortitude save against DC = 10 + 1 per 4 points of damage. If the Save fails, the creature is nauseated from the pain until healing magic or first aid can be applied. If the save succeeds, the victim of the attack is sickened from the pain for 1d4 rounds.

[eggynack]

But fireball isn't totally useless. A long range spell that can wreck wooden objects has its uses.
Yeah, that part is nifty. It might be worthwhile to add utility riders along those lines, in addition to the more standard SoX/BFC riders. The big flaw with that sort of thing is that the two effects aren't particularly synergistic. It's the sort of thing that makes the preparation more versatile, even if the actual casting might often be locked in to one mode or the other.

[Psyren]

Fire - creates a cloud of smoke that obscures the target's vision, forcing them to move or be blinded. Also dazzles them and chance to catch on fire.

Cold - save vs. stagger (from the shivering.)

Lightning - muscle spasms make you save vs. prone. Static bonus to the DC or attack roll if you're wearing metal. (Heh, static.)

Force - Bleed effect, and save vs. stun from the force.

Sonic - save vs. deafen, naturally.

Acid - AC penalty as it either eats weakens your armor, natural armor, or the pain and fumes slow your movements. The AC penalty does not stack with itself.

[nedz]

You could just grab the riders from the Orb of X line

Acid — Sickens for 1 round
Cold — Blind for 1 round
Electricity — Entangled for 1 round
Fire — Dazed for 1 round
Sound — Deafened for 1 round
(Fort partial for all of these)

[Troacctid]

Fire - creates a cloud of smoke that obscures the target's vision, forcing them to move or be blinded. Also dazzles them and chance to catch on fire.

Cold - save vs. stagger (from the shivering.)

Lightning - muscle spasms make you save vs. prone. Static bonus to the DC or attack roll if you're wearing metal. (Heh, static.)

Force - Bleed effect, and save vs. stun from the force.

Sonic - save vs. deafen, naturally.

Acid - AC penalty as it either eats weakens your armor, natural armor, or the pain and fumes slow your movements. The AC penalty does not stack with itself.

These are things I'd want available via feats--probably not as a blanket modification to all spells of that type.

[Shalist]

Depending on your playstyle and how experienced the players are, blasting can be a lot of fun in actual games, simply because it doesn't lead to hour-long combat rounds like extensive debuffing or battlefield control, or many other theoretically optimal options. Just throw your fireball, roll your damage, and move on to the next guy's turn.

If you want blasting to be on the same level as the rest, perhaps consider reining in those alternatives? For instance, arbitrarily moving all non-evocation spells up level.

Alternately, if you want blasting to be more powerful, metamagic (especially with cost reducers) actually has that pretty well covered already.

[Psyren]

These are things I'd want available via feats--probably not as a blanket modification to all spells of that type.

Oh fully agreed, these do feel like feats. But the thematic connection is there at least.

[nedz]

These are things I'd want available via feats--probably not as a blanket modification to all spells of that type.

Agreed — but one feat or five ?

[Just to Browse]

Blasting is fine if you optimize, but evocation spells are what suck. The solution is to make better evocation spells and re-level the ones that are inappropriate.

[Troacctid]

Agreed — but one feat or five ?

Based on existing, comparable feats? Definitely five.

[Theomniadept]

Blasting isn't without viability: Hail Storm does damage in an area and also create difficult terrain, so blasting with added effects is really the cream of the crop. Otherwise, it needs augmentations, like an Explosive Spell Fireball, which adds fome battlefield control to an otherwise mostly 'meh' spell.

As to the points of resistance/immunity, Frost Mage is a PrC that makes your cold spells ignore all resistance and immunity; the feat Searing Spell does the same for fire.

[Waker]

You have a few options. You could overhaul the whole spell system and add rider effects on spells, buffing some and so on. Or you could institute a wound system. Seharvepernfan and Extra Anchovies made one suggestion, another would be to steal a mechanic from the D20 Star Wars. There is a Damage Threshold where if a character takes an excess of this number is penalized on all rolls, having the threshold exceeded multiple times stacks penalties. You determine threshold by taking your Fortitude, adding Armor and any relevant modifiers like feats.

[Jack_Simth]

Stinking Cloud won't help you if you're trying to sink an enemy ship before they sink yours for instance.Actually, it can - by cutting down how many people on the enemy ship are shooting back (on a failed save for those subject) or making it harder for them to target you (as it blocks vision even if they pass the save) ... which is exactly what it's used for in pretty much any combat.

[Extra Anchovies]

Actually, it can - by cutting down how many people on the enemy ship are shooting back (on a failed save for those subject) or making it harder for them to target you (as it blocks vision even if they pass the save) ... which is exactly what it's used for in pretty much any combat.

But then, you won't be fighting many ship battles when there's no wind, and when there is wind the ships will both be in motion. Effects that you can tie to the enemy ship (such as target: object spells) and instantaneous effects that do their thing once and are gone (like fireball) would be more useful; you'd get two rounds at best out of Stinking Cloud.

[Curbstomp]

A Warmage who enters the Warmage Prestige Class is a very strong blaster. Especially if you utilize an alternate class feature to get a handful of Wizard spells tacked onto your spell list. Human with good feat selection will be quite powerful.

[Curbstomp]

Also if you want to make saving throws not matter so much... look at Tainted Scholar. Your PC can get some really high bonus spell counts and save DC's 35+ in non-specialty schools. I played one epic Tainted Scholar blaster whose base DC was 70 on 0-level evocation spells at 20th level. Of course he was actually min-maxed in (evil) evocation.

[Jack_Simth]

But then, you won't be fighting many ship battles when there's no wind, and when there is wind the ships will both be in motion. Effects that you can tie to the enemy ship (such as target: object spells) and instantaneous effects that do their thing once and are gone (like fireball) would be more useful; you'd get two rounds at best out of Stinking Cloud.
Ah, but the effects last for 1d4+1 rounds after leaving. Even if the fog cloud gets dispersed almost immediately because the natural winds are 22 mph... I'm trading one action from myself for 1d4+1 actions from some number of enemies. That'll usually be worthwhile, especially if I can follow it up with something else.

[Gemini476]

The biggest issue with blasting in 3E is probably just in the amount of damage it does. It was decent enough in prior editions, after all. (But then again, saves used to scale in the opposite direction.)

It used to be that a monster with equal hit dice to you had Xd8+Y hp, where X is the number of hit dice and Y is usually between 0 and 3. Hit Dice were very very roughly equivalent to a challenge rating, although DM adjucation for what was and wasn't an appropriate encounter was pretty important.
In the light of something having only Xd8 hp, doing Xd6 damage with your damaging spells seems pretty good.

Now, however, rather than Xd8 it's XdY+X*Z where Y is the size of the hit die and Z is the monsters constitution modifier. (Which also maxes out at infinity rather than what, +3?) It doesn't scale exactly with CR, but monsters tend to have hit dice in excess of CR rather than less.

Doing Xd6 damage to a target with Xd8+X*3 hit points, for instance, is a lot less appealing. In that specific case you're killing them in an average of three spells, which is a lot more than the one-maybe-two of AD&D/Basic. (And, again, blasting was more useful since opponents got better at saving as they went up in level and damage sticks around to help the Fighter rather than being the all-or-nothing of a save-or-die.)

To make blasting as useful now as it was then, making it do a base (1d6+Int)/level damage rather than just 1d6/level might be a good if overly strong start. Going with secondary stats would probably be smarter, since your Int is probably going to be higher than their Con, but Wizards are pretty SAD as is so it's not all that much of an option.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) Use swarms as enemies. Most blasting works on swarms but most debuffs don't.

2) Use undead and constructs as enemies. They got many immunities to debuffs but lower HP than normal.