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Thomar_of_Uointer
2014-09-30, 01:21 PM
This is cross-posted from an article I wrote on Reddit. 5e D&D seems to support E6 pretty well, so this document lays out some guidelines for using it.

For those new to the idea, the whole point of E6, or "Epic 6", or "6th-level characters are epic mortals", is to declare that certain magical abilities are beyond mortal ken in a setting. This also cuts of a good chunk of the "linear warriors, quadratic wizards" problem, which is still around in 5e (although considerably nerfed by spells per day). Here's one of the original articles from 3e: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?206323-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D

Setting level 6 as the barrier is traditional because of the limitations it places on 4th-level and higher spells. Teleportation and bringing the dead back to life are the two greatest offenders because they address some of the GM's major plot tools (character death and travel).

Anlysis of different cutoff levels follows. Which one you use is ultimately up to you as a GM and you should discuss the ramifications of it with your players. Here's how E6 (and similar level restrictions) looks like with the new 5e spell list from the PHB:

E10: Spellcasters can exercise true mind control, shapechange, cure petrification, break curses, spy globally, raise the dead back to life, disguise armies with illusions, set up teleport networks, have conversations with gods, summon outsiders to carry out complex tasks, gift animals and trees with sentience, and erect stone fortifications.

E8: Spellcasters can spy nearby, teleport hundreds of feet, fight invisibly, disguise buildings with illusions, shapechange, hold armies at bay, sink ships, and ask the very gods questions.

E6: Spellcasters can curse their enemies, scry nearby but with an obvious telltale, hold small groups at bay, send messages long distances, see into the past about a day, speak any language, raise undead servants, bring the terminally injured back to life, disobey natural laws like gravity, travel through the air and water, and rapidly travel over land.

E4: Spellcasters can create perfect disguises, hold strong warriors at bay, make warriors significantly stronger, turn invisible, levitate, exercise limited mind control, climb walls, send messages in a limited fashion, survive deadly poison, use magic to make hidden things obvious, and hide their tracks.

E2: Spellcasters can exercise fragile mind control, weave superficial illusions, communicate with animals, use telekinesis, heal moderate injuries, inconvenience warriors, use magic to replace tools and moderately expensive equipment, and partially understand unknown languages.

So, here's how E6 works in D&D 5th edition.

E6 Character Level Variant: In an E6 setting, a character with 6,500 XP has reached level 6, the highest possible power level for a mortal. Level advancement stops at 6th level, but characters still progress by improving their ability scores and gaining feats. Every 4,000 XP after attaining 6th level, a level 6 character can raise one ability score by +1 (to the normal maximum of 20). Learning a feat takes the place two +1 ability score increases (or 8,000 XP), so a character who wants to learn a feat should skip the ability score increase when they earn 4,000 XP and wait untill they earn their next 4,000 XP to gain the feat.

It goes without saying that spells of 4th level and higher are not available as scrolls, but if the GM allows it they might be available as rituals.

Here are the XP values used for level caps besides 6th:


Maximum Level XP Per +1 XP Per Feat
10 11,000 22,000
8 6,000 12,000
6 4,000 8,000
4 900 1,800
2 200 400


Drawbacks: The absence of high-level spells can sometimes detrimentally affect gameplay. The plot might call for the players to teleport to the moon, travel to another plane of existence, commune with the spirit of a deceased sage, or maybe one of the players got bitten by a cockatrice and they don't want to roll up a new character. Fortunately, the D&D 5e ritual rules work well in this regard. Many 4th- and 5th-level spells can be converted into rare rituals that the GM can use as rewards for major quests, giving the PCs access to spells they would otherwise be unable to acquire.

To further limit these rituals, they can be given special rare material components which are difficult to obtain and might require additional sidequests. Rituals can also be limited by making them only work at certain ley lines or manifest zones, or only under certain planetary/lunar alignments.

Good candidates for rituals include divination, polymorph, awaken, greater restoration, raise dead, scrying, teleportation circle, reincarnate, wall of stone, etc. Of course, a GM who doesn't want those effects to be possible in their campaign may opt out of using some or all of them.

Note: Anybody have any good ideas for level 6 feats? The original E6 assumed weak feats, but that's not the case now. Being able to pick up minor multiclassing abilities and 7th and 8th level class abilities as feats would allow for some interesting homebrew feats. Maybe, if the GM allows it, some feats for inching your ability scores up to 22 (in lieu of raising your proficiency bonus by another +1).

Z3ro
2014-09-30, 01:30 PM
I feel this comes not from a place of practical experience with the system, but from experience of previous systems and porting those judgements over, making it a less useful enterprise.

The best example of this: 5th level clerics can raise the dead back to life with revivify, shattering half the intended barrier you propose to erect.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2014-09-30, 01:37 PM
I feel this comes not from a place of practical experience with the system, but from experience of previous systems and porting those judgements over, making it a less useful enterprise.
This isn't about class tiers. Please don't make this be about class tiers. It's not about any of the other balance topics that are infesting the board right now either.

E6 is meant to be a campaign modification that sets hard limits on what types of spells are available to mortal spellcasters.


The best example of this: 5th level clerics can raise the dead back to life with revivify, shattering half the intended barrier you propose to erect.
This is noted in the list above under the E6 spell effects entry. Revivify has a one-minute window, and after that nothing short of a trip to the Underworld will bring you back. The spell also has a restriction on missing body parts, which means decapitation still works as long as a cleric can't wrestle the head away from you in the next minute. Most GMs will have no problem working within those limitations.

Giddonihah
2014-09-30, 01:55 PM
Wouldnt the objective of E6 be achieved by simply restricting higher level spells, but allowing higher level spell slots.

So at lvl 18 a Wizard might have only 3rd level spells, but they could place one of those spells in a 9th level spell slot. Course its slightly vulnerable to multiclass abuse, but eh.

Perhaps slowing down the progression of learning new level spells, but again allowing spell slots to be gained at the usual rate.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2014-09-30, 02:04 PM
Wouldnt the objective of E6 be achieved by simply restricting higher level spells, but allowing higher level spell slots.

So at lvl 18 a Wizard might have only 3rd level spells, but they could place one of those spells in a 9th level spell slot. Course its slightly vulnerable to multiclass abuse, but eh.

Perhaps slowing down the progression of learning new level spells, but again allowing spell slots to be gained at the usual rate.

Grant access to a 4th-level slot for spell scaling? Sounds like a good idea for a feat.

The problem with blanket-banning higher-level spells while continuing leveling is that, because of 5e's design philosophies, spellcasters will fall behind the unique utility abilities from classes like monks and druids. Heck, it's already being argued that fighters do better DPS than wizards, and damage-dealing spellcasters will fall far behind.

You do make a good point, though. Flat scaling in 5e makes banning spells more workable than it was in 3e.

Z3ro
2014-09-30, 02:11 PM
This isn't about class tiers. Please don't make this be about class tiers. It's not about any of the other balance topics that are infesting the board right now either.

What? Where in my response did I mention tiers? Even indirectly? I almost feel like this was a canned response and you didn't bother reading closely.



E6 is meant to be a campaign modification that sets hard limits on what types of spells are available to mortal spellcasters.

See, this goes back to what I said. You want to limit spells, why do so by limiting levels? Just get rid of higher level spells and keep higher level spell slots. 5E casting is already precariously close to just being a point-based system.



This is noted in the list above under the E6 spell effects entry. Revivify has a one-minute window, and after that nothing short of a trip to the Underworld will bring you back. The spell also has a restriction on missing body parts, which means decapitation still works as long as a cleric can't wrestle the head away from you in the next minute. Most GMs will have no problem working within those limitations.

E6: Spellcasters can curse their enemies, scry nearby but with an obvious telltale, hold small groups at bay, send messages long distances, see into the past about a day, speak any language, raise undead servants, bring the terminally injured back to life, disobey natural laws like gravity, travel through the air and water, and rapidly travel over land.

Nope, nothing in there about revivify, or bringing the dead back to life. Also, let's be honest, most players killed will be done so within a minute of their party. It's really not that big a restriction.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2014-09-30, 02:27 PM
What? Where in my response did I mention tiers? Even indirectly? I almost feel like this was a canned response and you didn't bother reading closely.
Sorry, I'm just really frustrated about some of the argument threads, particularly the one on magic items.


See, this goes back to what I said. You want to limit spells, why do so by limiting levels? Just get rid of higher level spells and keep higher level spell slots. 5E casting is already precariously close to just being a point-based system.
Too much risk of imbalance, and players might accuse you of being unfair.


Nope, nothing in there about revivify, or bringing the dead back to life. Also, let's be honest, most players killed will be done so within a minute of their party. It's really not that big a restriction.
"Bring the terminally injured back to life."

I think it's just fine for the party's healer to bring a player from 0 hit points or worse to life. I think it's not fine when a major NPC is found dead in their home with a knife in their back and the first thing the players do is cast raise dead and then go hunt down the assassin to reimburse them for the big diamond they just used to do it.

Ramshack
2014-09-30, 02:45 PM
I was a huge fan of E6 in 3.5, This will be an interesting take on the new 5e System. It will definitely take some play testing to flesh out fully. Most of my games I'm playing now or DMing now haven't even hit level 6 yet so it's really hard to judge. I'll see if I can get a few people together that are interested in testing a 5e e6 game out and I can provide some feedback

Z3ro
2014-09-30, 02:48 PM
Too much risk of imbalance, and players might accuse you of being unfair.


Well, presuming their sitting down and share your goals, I don't imagine they'd accuse you of being unfair. Also, I don't see what imbalances might arise; caster can still damage things, as well as use lots of other tricks on top of that. Melee gets a little ahead, but nothing game breaking. The only real problem I see is things like EK and AT being strictly superior options at higher levels. But then, I already think this is a bad exercize to start with.



"Bring the terminally injured back to life."

I think it's just fine for the party's healer to bring a player from 0 hit points or worse to life. I think it's not fine when a major NPC is found dead in their home with a knife in their back and the first thing the players do is cast raise dead and then go hunt down the assassin to reimburse them for the big diamond they just used to do it.

Terminally ill does not equal dead. Especially in the context of a combat.

And really, the use you're describing is already easily DM prevented, by simply saying the soul is not willing to return. I don't think I've ever had a serious game imbalance brough about by bringing a dead NPC back to life. Heck, the few times my players have done it it's usually a plot-vital NPC I want alive anyway. And they paid for it!

Galen
2014-09-30, 03:01 PM
I feel this comes not from a place of practical experience with the system, but from experience of previous systems and porting those judgements over, making it a less useful enterprise.

The best example of this: 5th level clerics can raise the dead back to life with revivify, shattering half the intended barrier you propose to erect.Revivify specified "died within the last minute", so it can be fluffed as really powerful healing, a-la "he's not really dead yet".

Z3ro
2014-09-30, 03:06 PM
Revivify specified "died within the last minute", so it can be fluffed as really powerful healing, a-la "he's not really dead yet".

Refluffed yes, but mechanically the same as the scenario the OP was describing as too powerful.

Steel Mirror
2014-09-30, 03:07 PM
Revivify specified "died within the last minute", so it can be fluffed as really powerful healing, a-la "he's not really dead yet"."It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive."

Lokiare
2014-09-30, 03:37 PM
Grant access to a 4th-level slot for spell scaling? Sounds like a good idea for a feat.

The problem with blanket-banning higher-level spells while continuing leveling is that, because of 5e's design philosophies, spellcasters will fall behind the unique utility abilities from classes like monks and druids. Heck, it's already being argued that fighters do better DPS than wizards, and damage-dealing spellcasters will fall far behind.

You do make a good point, though. Flat scaling in 5e makes banning spells more workable than it was in 3e.

When I ran my numbers a while back on the basic wizard, it did most of its damage from one 9th level spell and the rest were 2nd level spells in higher level slots. This came within 5-6 points of the champion fighter's DPR over the course of a day. I haven't run any math since the PHB came out.