Arcane Versus Divine

[Gamereaper]

How balanced are they side by side?

This is looking at them mechanically, not optimizing up the wazoo using RAW spell shenanigans, divine metamagics, poison healing viper familiars, or Ilumian cancer mage festering anger craziness.

I want to see if they are balanced enough to be side by side with casual gamers who don't powergame or minmax.

I'm mostly looking at:
HP
BAB
Selection of spells (core books only)
Variety Of Spells
Versatility Of Spells
Arcane Spell Failure

It's for a superhero campaign with superpowers based on a skill point system.

So scenarios where using powers to counter each other is like Heat Vision (8 Ranks) and Energy Projection (11 Ranks). Heat vision roll is 17 (25 Total), Energy Projection roll is 11 (22 Total), then heat vision wins. Very much like Bluff and Sense Motive work.

Magic use will be considered a power, much like Dr. Strange uses magic. So Wizards and Clerics will be spellcasters without picking other powers until later in levels in a fashion I will figure out later.

[Zaq]

Divine classes tend to have better base stats than arcane classes. There are exceptions here and there, but among the primary casters, divine is going to be sturdier than arcane. The Wizard and the Sorcerer have some of the worst chassis in the game, after all—d4 HD, one good save, minimum BAB, 2+INT skills. They make up for it by having access to the strongest spell list in the game. Most divine casters have a d8 HD and medium BAB (Cleric, Druid, Spirit Shaman, Favored Soul), and only a couple have a d6 HD and poor BAB (Archivist, Shugenja). Divine casters are also more likely to have multiple good saves. Again, exceptions exist, but overall, arcane casters have crappy chassis.

That's not to say that arcane casters are weaker than divine ones. There's a reason you don't see people clamoring for houserules to give the Wizard as good a chassis as the Cleric. The Sorc/Wiz list is, as I said, the most powerful in the game. The Cleric list and the Druid list are also very powerful, but they're generally acknowledged as being a little weaker than the Sorc/Wiz list.

Overall, the primary casters tend to be more or less balanced among themselves. Some are a little stronger than others (the Cleric is pretty clearly stronger than the Favored Soul, for an obvious example), but they're pretty close overall. It's every other class in the game that they're not balanced with.

[Troacctid]

Prestige class/feat prerequisites and spell lists aside, divine magic is inherently superior to arcane magic because it doesn't have a spell failure chance in armor and many material components are removed.

[eggynack]

That's not to say that arcane casters are weaker than divine ones. There's a reason you don't see people clamoring for houserules to give the Wizard as good a chassis as the Cleric. The Sorc/Wiz list is, as I said, the most powerful in the game. The Cleric list and the Druid list are also very powerful, but they're generally acknowledged as being a little weaker than the Sorc/Wiz list.

Pretty much this. Last time I assessed the wizard/druid/cleric comparison, I put wizards at the bottom from level one to around ten, and at the top from level eleven to sixteen, I put druids at the top from one to ten, and the bottom from eleven to sixteen, and I put clerics in between the two at all levels. I think seventeen and up should go generally unconsidered, due to the caster singularity effect of stuff like shapechange. Sure, having something that isn't shapechange is nice, but it's neither strictly necessary nor a significant power boost in my estimation. The reason for the general arrangement is that list grows continually in importance as you level, becoming the absolute most important thing at mid-level. Long story short, the three classes balance out quite well, especially when you consider the fact that they're not all that far apart even when they're at their least balanced. I doubt you'd be flung into irrelevance as a wizard in a party with a druid at first level, for example, and I have the same doubts about the druid being flung into irrelevant at sixteenth level in a party with a wizard.

[Zaq]

Prestige class/feat prerequisites and spell lists aside, divine magic is inherently superior to arcane magic because it doesn't have a spell failure chance in armor and many material components are removed.

Magic and armor mix weirdly in 3.5. If you just look at the Cleric and the Wizard, then yeah, what you're saying is true. But there's the Bard, the Duskblade, the Hexblade, the Warmage, and the Beguiler to consider, all of whom are arcane, and all of whom cast in armor. And then the Druid can cast in some armor, but put anything metal on them, and they've got nothing left. So even in the PHB, you've got exceptions to the idea that divine is cool with armor and arcane isn't, because the Bard is okay with (some) armor, and the Druid is not okay with (some) armor.

No argument about material components being waived, though the fact that divine casters tend to have problems with alignment-based spells that arcane casters can ignore is probably enough to balance out the material component argument. Both are minor concerns overall, but one side gets to ignore them and the other side has to sometimes worry about them.

[Gamereaper]

Would these differences mentioned think be enough for players to favor one side over another in a campaign where super strength, speed, reflexes, flight, damage reduction, regeneration, and other superpowers are common for the PCs?

[Extra Anchovies]

Would these differences mentioned think be enough for players to favor one side over another in a campaign where super strength, speed, reflexes, flight, damage reduction, regeneration, and other superpowers are common for the PCs?

Arcane would probably be more favored; a lot of divine spells are made redundant by those powers, because it's bigger on direct buffs. Arcane, however, has more active stuff like PAO, disintegrate, shapechange, planar binding, etc.

[Gamereaper]

Arcane would probably be more favored; a lot of divine spells are made redundant by those powers, because it's bigger on direct buffs. Arcane, however, has more active stuff like PAO, disintegrate, shapechange, planar binding, etc.

The only way I can figure to counter is the lure of extra HP, good fort saves, no ASF, and easier to Gish without having to waste spells buffing.

That, and picking wizard would mean they don't get extra superpowers initially (since magic is their superpower).

If that wouldn't be enough, I figured bonus feats associated to divine casters would be a nice balance perhaps at levels 1, 4, 8, 12, etc.

Better idea, maybe have Arcane spell resistance only. (?)

Perhaps Divine is Silent and Still, whereas Arcane requires gestures and speech.


I don't know, any suggestions?

[eggynack]

The only way I can figure to counter is the lure of extra HP, good fort saves, no ASF, and easier to Gish without having to waste spells buffing.

That, and picking wizard would mean they don't get extra superpowers initially (since magic is their superpower).

If that wouldn't be enough, I figured bonus feats associated to divine casters would be a nice balance perhaps at levels 1, 4, 8, 12, etc.

Better idea, maybe have Arcane spell resistance only. (?)
You really don't need to balance things. Things are sufficiently balanced along these lines already. Druids don't need this kind of help. Seriously, your current plan is to give a pile of feats and the ability to bypass SR on all spells to one of the most powerful classes in the game. A class that's often better than a wizard, and even more often than that better than a sorcerer, I might add. It's a bad idea.

If you want to increase balance, do it along class lines. Buff healers, because they are weak, and nerf wizards, because they are strong, but also buff warmages, because they are weak, and nerf druids, because they're strong. Dividing things up by arcane and divine verges is incredibly arbitrary, as my examples should clearly show.

[Gamereaper]

You really don't need to balance things. Things are sufficiently balanced along these lines already. Druids don't need this kind of help. Seriously, your current plan is to give a pile of feats and the ability to bypass SR on all spells to one of the most powerful classes in the game. A class that's often better than a wizard, and even more often than that better than a sorcerer, I might add. It's a bad idea.

If you want to increase balance, do it along class lines. Buff healers, because they are weak, and nerf wizards, because they are strong, but also buff warmages, because they are weak, and nerf druids, because they're strong. Dividing things up by arcane and divine verges is incredibly arbitrary, as my examples should clearly show.

A good point was brought up about how most spells on the cleric spell list are solved simply with superpowers. What is a good counter for that? Remember, I'm dealing with casual gamers here.

[eggynack]

A good point was brought up about how most spells on the cleric spell list are solved simply with superpowers. What is a good counter for that? Remember, I'm dealing with casual gamers here.
Clerics deal with that stuff reasonably enough anyway. Lemme put it this way. Does your game have anything that isn't in tier 1 or 2? Like, any sort of fighter, or rogue, or anything of that sort? If so, then clerics will handle things of that variety with infinitely more proficiency than any of those classes ever will. They're not even too far behind wizards, really. Yeah, some of their buffs are of the practical beat-stick variety, but they also have access to stuff like dispel magic, divination, planar ally, condition healing spells, true seeing, and a bunch of other stuff besides. Things get even better when you account for domains.

[Extra Anchovies]

A good point was brought up about how most spells on the cleric spell list are solved simply with superpowers. What is a good counter for that? Remember, I'm dealing with casual gamers here.

Well, when a class's spell list "only" lets them have superpowers, I don't think there's much fixing to be done about that :smallbiggrin:

But if you do want to lighten their feat load, make Divine Metamagic a single feat that applies to all of their metamagic feats. If they aren't aware of DMM: Persistent shenanigans, make them aware of DMM: Persistent shenanigans. They will find their way to superheroism on their own.

[Gamereaper]

So I figured out ways to give everyone superpowers, suggestions are appreciated.

These I feel are the most common methods.

Gadgets, Mutation, Mystical, and Natural

Gadgets:
You can have as many gadgets as you can and upgrades can be bought to any limit. You are however limited by your wealth and your ranks in the Technology superpower.

Mutation:
Mutations are most likely the default path. Gaining a power at levels 1, 5, 9, 13, and 17.

Mystical:
Mystical will almost always be spellcasting, which may be fine on it's own. If not, then at levels 9 and 19 I may allow added powers.

Natural:
Natural is always a part of their natural unmodified body, there is no limit on investment, but there is a limit on the extent of the investment based on CON. They can swap out 10 points of skill points for a new power with 1 rank. The body's ability to use powers is 75% of the body's CON score, with boosting CON as an exception, which is never limited.

[Thanatosia]

I think divine magic is probably better in the early game (lv1 and lv2 spells), about balanced mid game (lv3-6 spells), but Arcane pulls ahead in the late game (lv7+ spells), esp as the more reality bending shenanigans start to happen if you really want to abuse them (Ice assassins from private demi planes loaded with contingencies). Being able to cross-access each others lists via wish/miracle means the gap can never grow that big though.

[Gamereaper]

I think divine magic is probably better in the early game (lv1 and lv2 spells), about balanced mid game (lv3-6 spells), but Arcane pulls ahead in the late game (lv7+ spells), esp as the more reality bending shenanigans start to happen if you really want to abuse them (Ice assassins from private demi planes). Being able to cross-access each others lists via wish/miracle means the gap can never grow that big though.

Fortunately, my players are casual gamers who don't powergame/minmax/munchkin/pun-pun their way to power. I know how to better than them so I can splat it before it starts, plus my almighty DM powers too.

[Theomniadept]

Arcane seems to have a lot more choices outside of Tier 1. Think about it:
Tier 1:
Arcane - Wizard.
Divine - Archivist, Cleric, Druid.

Tier 2: (careful, the size of this tier is overwhelming)
Arcane - Sorcerer.
Divine - Favored Soul.

Tier 3: (deep breath)
Arcane - Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Bard, Duskblade.
Divine - uhh.... Wild Shape Ranger?

Tier 4:
Arcane - Warlock (PrC technicality, I'm counting it), Warmage, Hexblade, Spellthief.
Divine - Adept, Ranger (it has magic technically)

Tier 5:
Arcane - *crickets chirping*
Divine - Healer, Paladin (just like his buddy the Ranger)

As we can see, if we're just arguing Arcane vs. Divine, Arcane wins. Divine tends to deviate to higher tiers; while Wizard is God of the game (it's not Clerics of the Coast), Arcane magic just gives you all kinds of options, meaning it can fit well into ANY party at any power level and can choose to shine bright in its own area or completely engulf the party in a Prismatic Sphere. In a game where options = power and different tier levels have entirely different games, it's pretty clear arcane is the magic option that lends itself more to D&D while divine has either complete overpowered abilities or half-caster barely magical fighters. Of course there's Healer but that's not exactly fun magic, waiting for something to happen so you can patch it a bit.

Of course this doesn't account for the multitudes of prestige classes but just based off base classes it seems arcane beats out divine. This of course doesn't include finagling like using Sanctified spells to bump Healer to tier 4 or even 3 depending on PrC options.

[Anlashok]

You missed Shugenja and Spirit Shaman.


As we can see, if we're just arguing Arcane vs. Divine, Arcane wins.
Not sure how you figure. All you said was that there are more arcane classes.

[Theomniadept]

You missed Shugenja and Spirit Shaman.


Not sure how you figure. All you said was that there are more arcane classes.

Adventures in Missing the Point. It's exactly the fact that there are more arcane classes at more tiers that makes a stronger case for arcane magic. See, if I want to play divine caster my options are severely limited, mostly consisting of high tier casters. No, that's not necessarily better, as many games eventually devolve to caster vs. caster with guest stars the rest of the party. So while it's nice to have so many tier 1 options, having a broader spectrum allows for more variability, less showboating, and more ways to work within a party.

[Extra Anchovies]

Adventures in Missing the Point. It's exactly the fact that there are more arcane classes at more tiers that makes a stronger case for arcane magic. See, if I want to play divine caster my options are severely limited, mostly consisting of high tier casters. No, that's not necessarily better, as many games eventually devolve to caster vs. caster with guest stars the rest of the party. So while it's nice to have so many tier 1 options, having a broader spectrum allows for more variability, less showboating, and more ways to work within a party.

Shugenja is T4, and mid/low at that; Spirit Shaman is oddly tier-ambiguous. Also, any class can knock itself down a few tiers by careful self-limiting; a cleric without DMM and who avoids the game-breaking spells can still function effectively in a mid/low op game.

[eggynack]

Adventures in Missing the Point. It's exactly the fact that there are more arcane classes at more tiers that makes a stronger case for arcane magic. See, if I want to play divine caster my options are severely limited, mostly consisting of high tier casters. No, that's not necessarily better, as many games eventually devolve to caster vs. caster with guest stars the rest of the party. So while it's nice to have so many tier 1 options, having a broader spectrum allows for more variability, less showboating, and more ways to work within a party.
So, there are more arcane classes, which means we need to... universally buff divine classes? I'm not really sure how that follows. This thread just doesn't make any sense to me.

[Anlashok]

Adventures in Missing the Point. It's exactly the fact that there are more arcane classes at more tiers that makes a stronger case for arcane magic. See, if I want to play divine caster my options are severely limited, mostly consisting of high tier casters. No, that's not necessarily better, as many games eventually devolve to caster vs. caster with guest stars the rest of the party. So while it's nice to have so many tier 1 options, having a broader spectrum allows for more variability, less showboating, and more ways to work within a party.

That necessitates the assumption that you can't play a high tier character downward, which is entirely false.

[eggynack]

That necessitates the assumption that you can't play a high tier character downward, which is entirely false.
Or that you can't play a low tier character upward. Healers and paladins can each go up one or two tiers with proper list expansion, the former without even doing anything. Really, the only apparent difference is that there are basically no divine casters that are natively tier 3, and no arcane casters that are natively tier 5. Doesn't seem like an especially meaningful result.

[Theomniadept]

That necessitates the assumption that you can't play a high tier character downward, which is entirely false.

There's a difference between playing a tier downward and playing a lower tier. I could focus all my cleric's feats and abilities on healing spells and be 100% ineffective, but that's literally if I just ignore the entire other class abilities that are undeniably at my disposal. It's like playing Druid and just not using our animal companion or wild shape so you don't step on the fighter's toes - everyone knows you can and should but you won't for reasons unknown. Plus, those are metagame reasons; any druid would automatically know that their animal companion and wild shape are better than fighters and paladins, so not using them in a game all about life-and/or-death situations it's just not realistic.

Contrast playing Dread Necromancer; hindered, but much better at what he does than tier 1 classes, while lacking the universal utility that would allow such classes to solve encounters with one or two spells. Or Bard, being the party face but still having some magic to help but not overshadow (unless they go full Shadow spell specialization in which case they make illusions more real than reality). More options = more flavor.

[Extra Anchovies]

It's like playing Druid and just not using our animal companion or wild shape so you don't step on the fighter's toes - everyone knows you can and should but you won't for reasons unknown.

Actually. Taking the druid (or any class) down a tier or two isn't about not using their full abilities - it's about not having them in the first place. A druid with the deadly hunter ACF (wild shape and armor proficiency for monk AC/speed bonuses, favored enemy, track, and swift tracking) and the druidic avenger ACF (lose animal companion, gain barbarian rage, illiteracy, and fast movement) can still be a phenomenal combatant (self-buff, then rage), even if they go all-out with the powers they have.

Same with a cleric, but it's more in spell selection and play style for them. Don't take DMM, or even switch turning for Divine Counterspell. Avoid front-line fighting, instead buffing other party members. That sort of thing.

[Divide by Zero]

Shugenja is T4, and mid/low at that; Spirit Shaman is oddly tier-ambiguous. Also, any class can knock itself down a few tiers by careful self-limiting; a cleric without DMM and who avoids the game-breaking spells can still function effectively in a mid/low op game.

Spirit Shaman is Tier 2 at minimum. Druid may have the weakest spell list of the Big Three, but it still has more than enough game-breakers to, well, break the game.

[eggynack]

Spirit Shaman is Tier 2 at minimum. Druid may have the weakest spell list of the Big Three, but it still has more than enough game-breakers to, well, break the game.
The general argument against spirit shaman at tier 2 is that it doesn't fit the definition very well. The class has access to all of its nukes all the time, after all. Also, as I often note, the spirit shaman list isn't really as long as the druid list. To put it simply, you lose the spells that are only or particularly good with druid class features (enhance wild shape, venomfire, bite of the X, maybe animal growth, and so on), and you lose the spells that are effectively derived directly from your class features (overland flight from bat form, long term minionmancy from the animal companion, big melee buffs of various kinds from bear forms, and so on). Finally, the casting mechanic is significantly worse, putting you at a tiny quantity of different spells/day of your highest level. Long story short, tiering the spirit shaman is tricky as hell.

[Marlowe]

Shugenja is T4, and mid/low at that;

How on earth can a class that gets 9th level spells, and which has the same Spells/Day as a Sorceror with more Spells/Known (very often the same spells) at most levels, get put into low/mid tier 4?:smalleek:

Most mentions of the Shugenja I've seen (it gets overlooked a lot) put it at tier 3, sometimes as high as tier 2.

I agree that that Shugenja list is missing the most obvious "best" spells; and tends to get some stables a level behind most other spellcasters, but putting them at Tier 4 is selling them way too short.

[Gamereaper]

So, there are more arcane classes, which means we need to... universally buff divine classes? I'm not really sure how that follows. This thread just doesn't make any sense to me.

I'm trying to add a gimmick to my game that everyone is requesting that I add to a new game while maintaining a degree of balance between Arcane and Divine casters, namely the Wizard and the Cleric. All this while ensuring neither spell list can be rendered obsolete or overshadowed by the inclusion of superpowers.

All I am asking is how balanced they are side by side. If they are not, what can I do to rectify the imbalance. The superpowers will be fairly generic and assume no reality warping superpowers are possible.


Here is a small list of superpowers to maybe better understand the degree of power they will have.

Super (ability score), super speed, flight, regeneration, damage reduction, natural armor,energy projection (offense and defense), magic, psionics, weapons expert (melee or ranged), martial arts, and gadgets.

I doubt many people, even at level 20 will go beyond a natural 40 in ability scores. Movement most likely in the 100-120 at that point, DR might be around 20-25 or so. Natural armor will be 1 point for every 2 points invested rounded down, an odd point will grant a bonus when at full health. Magic is magic, psionics is psionics, weapons expert is initiators (ranged have their adaptions of maneuvers), martial arts is monk (they are unaware of unarmed swordsage, but the option is open), and gadgets is magic items and to a degree the Artificer.

[Gemini476]

How on earth can a class that gets 9th level spells, and which has the same Spells/Day as a Sorceror with more Spells/Known (very often the same spells) at most levels, get put into low/mid tier 4?:smalleek:

Most mentions of the Shugenja I've seen (it gets overlooked a lot) put it at tier 3, sometimes as high as tier 2.

I agree that that Shugenja list is missing the most obvious "best" spells; and tends to get some stables a level behind most other spellcasters, but putting them at Tier 4 is selling them way too short.
How can a Warmage or Healer be less than Tier 3 with the access to ninth-level spells? By having not-that-great spell selection.

Seriously, the Shugenja is a decent class but its Spells Known are ridiculously restrictive. You need to have half your spells from your specialization, and the opposite element is completely banned from you. And the two best elements are Earth and Air, so you don't want to ban those, but if you specialize in Water because of that you're only going to get a small small handful of those great spells known anyway with most of the rest being healing spells.

...Although personally I'll agree on putting the Shugenja in Tier 3, simply because it has some pretty decent spell variety that the Warmage and such lack.

(Also the Spirit Shaman is probably Tier 1 by definition, since it's got A)a game-breaking spell list and B)the ability to change spells known day-by-day. It's the weakest Tier 1 by far, and weaker than most Tier 2s, but since what makes a Tier 1 a Tier 1 is versatility I'd put them in there. Relative strength is only really important for Tier 6-4 and 3-2.)

[Marlowe]

Seriously, the Shugenja is a decent class but its Spells Known are ridiculously restrictive. You need to have half your spells from your specialization, and the opposite element is completely banned from you. And the two best elements are Earth and Air, so you don't want to ban those, but if you specialize in Water because of that you're only going to get a small small handful of those great spells known anyway with most of the rest being healing spells.


Which is probably why the Handbook advises taking Fire pretty much every time.

[Extra Anchovies]

Magic is magic, psionics is psionics, weapons expert is initiators (ranged have their adaptions of maneuvers), martial arts is monk (they are unaware of unarmed swordsage, but the option is open), and gadgets is magic items and to a degree the Artificer.

You could also maybe fluff Incarnum as gadgets, too; there's a thread floating around here somewhere ("Let's Refluff It!" or something) where someone suggests that the soulmelds being used are just the ones that are "powered up" that day. Shuffling essentia would be reallocating power from one gadget to another.

[eggynack]

I'm trying to add a gimmick to my game that everyone is requesting that I add to a new game while maintaining a degree of balance between Arcane and Divine casters, namely the Wizard and the Cleric. All this while ensuring neither spell list can be rendered obsolete or overshadowed by the inclusion of superpowers.

All I am asking is how balanced they are side by side. If they are not, what can I do to rectify the imbalance. The superpowers will be fairly generic and assume no reality warping superpowers are possible.

Wizards and clerics are reasonably balanced against each other. Neither requires a buff relative to the other, and more importantly, neither requires a buff in a game which also apparently has monks. Thus, if you add a gimmick to the casting of one class or the other (or both), you should seek to make the gimmicks value neutral in terms of impact on power level, or maybe even make both gimmicks detrimental. You should seek to make neither provide an increase in power, because even with those super powers, the lower tier classes still have significantly less power.

[Gamereaper]

You could also maybe fluff Incarnum as gadgets, too; there's a thread floating around here somewhere ("Let's Refluff It!" or something) where someone suggests that the soulmelds being used are just the ones that are "powered up" that day. Shuffling essentia would be reallocating power from one gadget to another.

Not a bad idea, I like it. Perhaps make the craft reserve be "funding" instead with an artificer to buy the battery packs and improvements (essentia).

Unfortunately, I'm having a hard enough time explaining to them how maneuvers and stances work. We grew up with the THAC0 system. We transitioned to a mix of AD&D and 3E, finally we're doing full 3.5.

[Extra Anchovies]

Not a bad idea, I like it. Perhaps make the craft reserve be "funding" instead with an artificer to buy the battery packs and improvements (essentia).

Unfortunately, I'm having a hard enough time explaining to them how maneuvers and stances work. We grew up with the THAC0 system. We transitioned to a mix of AD&D and 3E, finally we're doing full 3.5.

When explaining maneuvers, it's best to break them down into their types:


Boosts are swift-action buffs that last until the end of your turn. They often increase damage (Searing Blade) or grant extra attacks (Raging Mongoose).

Strikes are standard-action special attacks; they enhance a single attack in some way, or add rider effects to the damage.

Counters are immediate-action abilities that can be used as responses to enemy actions. They either grant direct bonuses (e.g. Zephyr Dance) or let you do something other than hope the enemy misses (e.g. Wall of Blades).

All together, these are called maneuvers. They can each be used once per encounter unless your character takes the time to get them back.

Stances are always-on buffs, but you can only have one active at a time. They're usable at will.

Don't go into exact recovery mechanics until players have picked classes; no need to talk about granted maneuvers if they're playing a Swordsage.

[Gemini476]

Which is probably why the Handbook advises taking Fire pretty much every time.

In which case you lose healing spells to gain a list of mostly blasting spells. That's probably the right choice, but leaves you in a weird position where you're a divine caster who can't heal and instead act as some kind of Sorcerer?

The big issue is that you only ever have one or two spells known per level that aren't in your specialization. Or two to three, I suppose, if you factor in Order spells.
When your ninth-level spells are Meteor Swarm, Implosion, and one of Teleportation Circle, Etherealness, Antipathy, and Imprisonment? Yeah. When you throw in orders, add Disjunction, Soul Bind, Foresight and Shambler to that list.

The Shugenja isn't bad, but he isn't that great either. He fits solidly in the Tier 3-4 area.

[Gamereaper]

Wizards and clerics are reasonably balanced against each other. Neither requires a buff relative to the other, and more importantly, neither requires a buff in a game which also apparently has monks. Thus, if you add a gimmick to the casting of one class or the other (or both), you should seek to make the gimmicks value neutral in terms of impact on power level, or maybe even make both gimmicks detrimental. You should seek to make neither provide an increase in power, because even with those super powers, the lower tier classes still have significantly less power.

Unless magic IS their superpower.

I understand that they have access to a wide variety of superpower like abilities. Their skill points will be low, their casting is tied with the "spellcasting" superpower. They need a certain amount of ranks in that on top of level requirements to cast spells.

At levels 9 and 19, they get more superpowers.

Mutants get new ones at 1, 5, 9, 13, and 17.

Gadgeteers must buy, improve, and maintain theirs, but otherwise have no limit on amount. They need enough ranks in the Technology superpower, which includes hacking, device use, bomb disarming, etc.

Natural superheroes are creatures who innately have these abilities and are considered "super" by our standards.
They use CON for superpower points and limit themselves based on 75% of their full CON score. They buy new powers at 1 rank with 10 points.

[eggynack]

Unless magic IS their superpower.
So, you're just handing all monks full spellcasting? Cause that's approximately what you would need to do to obtain parity.


I understand that they have access to a wide variety of superpower like abilities. Their skill points will be low, their casting is tied with the "spellcasting" superpower. They need a certain amount of ranks in that on top of level requirements to cast spells.

At levels 9 and 19, they get more superpowers.
This is all somewhat vague, in that superpowers are somewhat undefined, even given the context that it can mean some quantity of magic. This honestly seems like more of a homebrew issue to me.

[Gamereaper]

So, you're just handing all monks full spellcasting? Cause that's approximately what you would need to do to obtain parity.


No, I think that part is being misunderstood.

To get magic as a power, you need to be a caster. Any caster who wants martial arts can get Superior Unarmed strike if they want.

As for the superpowers, they almost essentially replace skills. Granted, some may still be there. Some are put together into a single one such as Acrobatics (Balance, Climb, Jump, and Tumble).

[eggynack]

No, I think that part is being misunderstood.

Ah, so you still do have monks, albeit with some variety of power increase that isn't casting. In that case, the monks are still quite likely to be underpowered, unless, as I said, the monks are handed something roughly equivalent to full casting.

[Gamereaper]

Ah, so you still do have monks, albeit with some variety of power increase that isn't casting. In that case, the monks are still quite likely to be underpowered, unless, as I said, the monks are handed something roughly equivalent to full casting.

Like Unarmed Swordsage?

[eggynack]

Like Unarmed Swordsage?
No. The unarmed swordsage can certainly have a role in a full caster party, but they will still be fundamentally weaker than the full caster. You're basically asking us whether you should buff one tier 1 class to match the power of another tier 1 class, while a tier 3 class twiddles its thumbs in the background. The answer is no, especially when the "weaker" tier 1 isn't really all that much weaker at all.

[Gamereaper]

No. The unarmed swordsage can certainly have a role in a full caster party, but they will still be fundamentally weaker than the full caster. You're basically asking us whether you should buff one tier 1 class to match the power of another tier 1 class, while a tier 3 class twiddles its thumbs in the background. The answer is no, especially when the "weaker" tier 1 isn't really all that much weaker at all.

Honestly, I don't really believe in the "tier" system. In fact, I had an archer build barbarian who absolutely stood out, even the casters were afraid of me. I didn't even use magic items and I was fearsome even then.

The level of optimization these guys are used to is way below the community here to the point that they would just stare in awe at a half orc Unarmed Swordsage I made on the fly and swear I was cheating.

I kid you not, a party of nothing but clerics, fighters, and wizards. None of them would feel left out.

[eggynack]

Honestly, I don't really believe in the "tier" system. In fact, I had an archer build barbarian who absolutely stood out, even the casters were afraid of me. I didn't even use magic items and I was fearsome even then.

The level of optimization these guys are used to is way below the community here to the point that they would just stare in awe at a half orc Unarmed Swordsage I made on the fly and swear I was cheating.

I kid you not, a party of nothing but clerics, fighters, and wizards. None of them would feel left out.
If you're playing at a level of optimization where massive balance differences are meaningless, why do you care about the minute differences between clerics and wizards? If access to the ability to reshape reality isn't making your game at all wonky, then I wouldn't particularly expect ASF or less physically oriented spells to do so either.

[Divide by Zero]

Honestly, I don't really believe in the "tier" system. In fact, I had an archer build barbarian who absolutely stood out, even the casters were afraid of me. I didn't even use magic items and I was fearsome even then.

What did you do when you were faced with a problem that couldn't be solved by shooting arrows at it?

[Gamereaper]

If you're playing at a level of optimization where massive balance differences are meaningless, why do you care about the minute differences between clerics and wizards? If access to the ability to reshape reality isn't making your game at all wonky, then I wouldn't particularly expect ASF or less physically oriented spells to do so either.

I felt that the GITP community would have had some point to make along the lines of say "if they have X, wouldn't that mean Class Y would be pointless to take"?

I want to make sure the balance is still there and not discourage people from getting say Regeneration because the healers would feel more useless, you get what I'm saying?

Would the buff spells seem too insignificant for a fighter with super strength?

Would adding a +4 to the MODIFIER be more effective perhaps with the "animal's ability" spells?

Actually, what I'm probably getting down to without realizing just now is will the casters still be able to feel good if the others can do most of what they can do and then some.

Can the buffers buff noticably? Can the blasters blast just as well or better as the rogue with the energy projection? Can wild shape/polymorph stand out enough with a shape changer? Can the party healer provide a helpful amount of healing to the fighter getting slammed by a BBEG with 30+ STR?

[Gamereaper]

What did you do when you were faced with a problem that couldn't be solved by shooting arrows at it?

I did a lot of thinking, like riddles or puzzles.

But usually I handled combat. I handled a Pit Fiend on my own (but that was with a sword). I was also the party member who could do all of the high dexterity stuff with ease.

But every once in a while, I couldn't do much. We all had a moment at some point or another where we covered each other's back. Our party was like family, we didn't have to worry about each other's weaknesses because it was covered. We felt the loss of each and every character.

Once we were running from a dragon, one of my team mates fell behind. I knew I had enough health to survive. I went back and helped them up. We ran like hell to that door. It was me or them, so I threw them through that door and sacrificed myself so my team mates were safe. That was one of our party's most emotional moments.

That aside, it seems like everyone forgets moments like that. You have your friends there to help you, that's why it's a group. Everyone seems obsessed with being the person who can do it all when you don't need to be. That's why the Tier System is BS.

If you're playing in a game where literally everyone makes the same character using the best feats with the best class with the best weapon, doesn't it get stale after a while seeing the same people one trick pony the same stuff?

[eggynack]

That aside, it seems like everyone forgets moments like that. You have your friends there to help you, that's why it's a group. Everyone seems obsessed with being the person who can do it all when you don't need to be. That's why the Tier System is BS.

If you're playing in a game where literally everyone makes the same character using the best feats with the best class with the best weapon, doesn't it get stale after a while seeing the same people one trick pony the same stuff?
I think you really need a better understanding of what the tier system is, and why the classes are placed the way they are, before you try to start making changes to the game for balance reasons. The tier system isn't about players trying to make their characters as possible, such that they overshadow others, but the reasons why, when played at normal optimization levels, some characters just will overshadow others. You don't really need to sit down and say, "How can I screw over the party monk today?" in order to play a druid with a standard riding dog animal companion who uses spells in a competent fashion.

Also, optimized characters in this game are the furthest thing from one trick ponies. That's another main point of the tier system. If you want to hit the high tiers, then you need to be a pony with just about every trick there is, at generally high levels of competence. The tier system isn't about wizards using a mailman build to deal as much damage as possible to a single target, invalidating the melee guy's efforts, but about wizards having access to a massive arsenal of spells that invalidate just about everyone's efforts.

[Gamereaper]

Also, optimized characters in this game are the furthest thing from one trick ponies. That's another main point of the tier system. If you want to hit the high tiers, then you need to be a pony with just about every trick there is, at generally high levels of competence. The tier system isn't about wizards using a mailman build to deal as much damage as possible to a single target, invalidating the melee guy's efforts, but about wizards having access to a massive arsenal of spells that invalidate just about everyone's efforts.

I meant that more in a "Ok, as the lion totem half troll half orc half minotaur dragonwrought kobold barbarian, I charge dealing 6,274 DMG" literally over and OVER again. I mean, that has GOT to be getting old really fast. I look up people looking for build to literally do 1 thing in a game breaking fashion or literally everything so it invalidates the rest of the party. It's like everyone has a nearly nihilistic view on their team mates.

[eggynack]

I meant that more in a "Ok, as the lion totem half troll half orc half minotaur dragonwrought kobold barbarian, I charge dealing 6,274 DMG" literally over and OVER again. I mean, that has GOT to be getting old really fast. I look up people looking for build to literally do 1 thing in a game breaking fashion or literally everything so it invalidates the rest of the party.
That's not really what the tier system's about though, and that system is the thing you have to understand if you're trying to make adjustments to class balance.

[Gamereaper]

That's not really what the tier system's about though, and that system is the thing you have to understand if you're trying to make adjustments to class balance.

Do you think I have to worry about balancing the superpowers vs. magic?

I just don't want a caster, who will pretty much always be a caster to be a specific build, only to have that build feel useless from granted superpowers of everyone else.

I figured out how I could balance buffing and healing. Instead of buffing the ability score for say Bull's Strength, I think it would be much more noticable and effective both in people of 10-12 STR as well as 30-32 STR to grant the enhancement bonus to the modifier itself. It will be a nice dramatic little boost for the little guy and a noticable boost for the big guy.

Healing will be iffy, but Cure Moderate Wounds could maybe have the bonus HP based on caster level instead of total of healing apply to each D8 used instead. When you have resilient dudes dealing tons of DMG to each other in average HP ranges of 150-250, it will be much better.

Honestly, the blasting from spells like Fireball seem fair and can be a decent baseline for capping energy beams and such.

[eggynack]

Do you think I have to worry about balancing the superpowers vs. magic?
I don't really know what superpowers are, is the issue. If superpowers are roughly equivalent in power level to magic, then obviously you don't have to worry about it. I'm somewhat doubtful that they are though.


I just don't want a caster, who will pretty much always be a caster to be a specific build, only to have that build feel useless from granted superpowers of everyone else.
Caster power is rooted in spell selection, rather than build. A skilled player would be capable of making any cleric or druid perform at a top level in any given party within an in-game day, and they'd be capable of doing the same for a wizard in the time it takes to get new spells. Druids can actually acquire competence faster, due to the power level of wild shape and summoning.


I figured out how I could balance buffing and healing. Instead of buffing the ability score for say Bull's Strength, I think it would be much more noticable and effective both in people of 10-12 STR as well as 30-32 STR to grant the enhancement bonus to the modifier itself. It will be a nice dramatic little boost for the little guy and a noticable boost for the big guy.
So... you're just making it a +8. Seems like a much easier way of saying it. That line of spells wasn't exactly good to start with, so boosting it isn't the worst, but it just seems unnecessary.


Healing will be iffy, but Cure Moderate Wounds could maybe have the bonus HP based on caster level instead of total of healing apply to each D8 used instead. When you have resilient dudes dealing tons of DMG to each other in average HP ranges of 150-250, it will be much better.

Honestly, the blasting from spells like Fireball seem fair and can be a decent baseline for capping energy beams and such.
I think you have a bit of a weird idea of what powerful spellcasting looks like. Good wizard spells look less like fireball and more like polymorph or color spray. Good cleric spells look less like cure moderate, and more like dispel magic or planar ally. Good druid spells look less like... I dunno... bull's strength? and more like entangle or summon nature's ally X. This is the stuff that mundanes have to compete with if the casters are played at any level of real competence.

[Gamereaper]

I don't really know what superpowers are, is the issue. If superpowers are roughly equivalent in power level to magic, then obviously you don't have to worry about it. I'm somewhat doubtful that they are though.

Caster power is rooted in spell selection, rather than build. A skilled player would be capable of making any cleric or druid perform at a top level in any given party within an in-game day, and they'd be capable of doing the same for a wizard in the time it takes to get new spells. Druids can actually acquire competence faster, due to the power level of wild shape and summoning.

So... you're just making it a +8. Seems like a much easier way of saying it. That line of spells wasn't exactly good to start with, so boosting it isn't the worst, but it just seems unnecessary.

I think you have a bit of a weird idea of what powerful spellcasting looks like. Good wizard spells look less like fireball and more like polymorph or color spray. Good cleric spells look less like cure moderate, and more like dispel magic or planar ally. Good druid spells look less like... I dunno... bull's strength? and more like entangle or summon nature's ally X. This is the stuff that mundanes have to compete with if the casters are played at any level of real competence.

The superpowers are fairly generic.

The approximate maximum power level for super strength is 46 or so, assuming they have an 18 in STR, invest their bonus point every 4 levels up to level 20 is 23. Then adding an extra 23 STR for the 23 ranks they added, which is 46.

I feel a +4 from Bull's Strength is hardly worth casting at that point, but a +8 would feel more significant.

Tenser's Transformation/Divine Power have that problem too. Righteous Might grants a +8 to STR, but the rest are +4.

As for the healing, healing 13 HP from the start seems ok with Cure Light Wounds at the start, but would healing 24-52 HP with Cure Critical Wounds be ok when they'll possibly take that much, if not more from someone with a 46 (+18) with a full round action? Even 2 hits is at least 38 DMG. Rolling a 6 makes the max become 48.

Dispel Magic will most likely work against magic, but useless again non magical flight or barriers. Planar ally seems fine.

Color Spray seems really strong at lower levels, which is fine because a Will save later on or even against someone with Super Wisdom who practically won't have to even try by not rolling a 1.

Polymorph is tied to CL, so that won't be an issue either.

I'm mostly worried about spells like Aid or other spells that grant less than a +5 bonus.

It's not so much the damaging spells I'm worried about, it's the buffing spells. I want the buffing spells to feel like they are doing something significant at low ability scores being at least somewhat noticable at higher ability scores. The summoning ones might be ok.