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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Feedback needed for racial ability: "One soul, two bodies". [PEACH]



stitchlipped
2014-10-01, 06:21 AM
I have no idea if any of the people I play with are members here; but if you belong to the London D&D Meetup Group and are one of the people who will take part in Adventures in Osse, turn back now. Don't be a spoilsport!


Update: the build in this first post is now outdated. Most recent build is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18215180&postcount=15).

Hi guys,

I'm trying to make a race in which each "individual" actually has two physical bodies.

I haven't got a complete set of racial abilities worked out yet, because I'm honestly not sure how good the two bodies are and how many other racial abilities it would be fair for them to have.

I'd love some feedback on the "one soul, two bodies" ability. How good do you think this is? How many racial abilities from the PHB do you think this is equivalent to? How much more can I realistically give the race before they become totally broken (or is this ability broken already?)?

The fluff
The woaven are an aberration of a nature, a race in which it is normal to have two entirely unique physical forms linked by a single soul. Though it may seem a wonderful thing to have two bodies that can act independantly, the ability is as much a curse as a blessing. A soul halved is a soul weakened, and a woaven’s two halves are less resilient than any other race’s whole. Furthermore, harm to one half of the woaven often has consequences for the other half. Still, there are advantages too. A woaven lives their entire life seeing with two sets of eyes, acting with two sets of limbs, and they are therefore never alone. They always have an like-minded, unquestioningly loyal ally to back them up - even when that ally is their own self.

The woaven are mostly found in Osse’s South-Western region, eking out an existence on the plains and among the canyons at the edge of the arid zone. They survive in fairly hostile conditions thanks to their second halves, which take animalistic forms better suited to scavenge and hunt in the desert environs they live in.

One half of a woaven is a rangy humanoid with dusky grey skin, a hairless body, and yellow eyes. This half typically wears a drab hooded cloak to protect against the sun, and little else other than a loincloth underneath.

The other half takes an animalistic form, which varies by woaven tribe. These forms do not completely correspond to a single animal, and the woaven believe them to mirror archetypal forms, of which they share the beliefs of the ekidan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?373214-Homebrew-Races-PEACH&highlight=Ekidan). Both woaven and ekidan therefore consider this race to be uniquely touched by the Dreamtime.

Some cursed individuals have a second half that is unspeakable, a hazy entity of indiscernible shape - or rather, shapes that the mind quickly slides over and attempts to forget. These woaven have been touch by The Other, an entity of malevolence and destruction that rampages unchecked through the Dreamtime. Thoughts of destruction plague them, and their innermost desires are often acted out by their second form before they have a chance to have second thoughts. These cursed woaven are killed at birth, but some sentimental parents leave the tribe to save their children. Too often, their actions end in tragedy, for sooner or later The Other will dream of their deaths and the child will be compelled to act this out.

The ability
One soul two bodies. You have two bodies that are controlled by a single mind. Your second body is an animal form chosen from the list of subraces presented below. Designer's note: I haven't created the subraces yet, but I am thinking they should be equivalent to a CR 1/4 beast except with only a single HD.

Your forms act independently of each other, but both are guided by your singular will. In combat, use the same roll for the initiative of both bodies but apply their unique initiative modifiers - while your mind instructs your bodies simultaneously, their reaction speeds can differ. Consequently, they act on their own turns.

Your two bodies can separate, but if they are out of line of sight from each other when one or both bodies undergo a stressful experience, your shared mind suffers sensory overload and finds it difficult to cope with all the information. In such a situation, both bodies are at a disadvantage to ability checks, attack rolls, and Dexterity saving throws for the duration of the experience. You can voluntarily reduce the amount of input to one of your bodies, only taking a move action with that body on its turn. During the same round, the second body does not suffer disadvantage.

You suffer the same effects regardless of the distance between your two bodies if either or both of them undergoes a disorienting experience, for the duration of that experience. In this event, only the disoriented body can sacrifice their action, bonus action, and reaction to reduce the effects on the other body. If both bodies have been disoriented neither can remove the disadvantage until the effect ends.

While seperated, you always know where your bodies are in relation to each other - you know the direction, and an approximate distance between them. This sense can be blocked magically, or if both bodies are on different planes of existence. In either event then the woaven experiences disorientation as above until the severed connection is restored.

Any effect that targets your mind, such as the Charmed or Frightened conditions, affects both your bodies. Effects that target the body, such as all other conditions, apply only to the specific body they target (but may of course target both).

Your animal body can deliver a spell with a range of touch as though it had cast the spell. To do so it must be within 100 feet of your humanoid body, and it must use its reaction to deliver the spell when the humanoid body casts it.

Your animal body can also use any ability granted by your class that makes sense for an animal to accomplish. A class ability that can only be used a certain amount of times or requires the expenditure of a resource can be used by both bodies at the same time. All other class abilities can only be used by one body at a time - it is impossible for your mind to focus enough to extend them to both bodies.

Polymorph effects, including Wild Shape, only work on you if your two bodies are adjacent, as your whole being is required for the transformation to properly take effect.

The fruits of your experience are shared between your bodies. At 2nd level and every level thereafter, your humanoid form receives half of any hit points gained, rounded up. Your animal form receives the remainder. Designer's note: This could make members of this race too fragile to handle high level encounters, at which point it would cease to become a balancing factor and more of a deterrent to even playing them. An alternative I've considered is to give the humanoid form full HD and the animal form additional HD but at a slower progression, say every 3rd level.

PS. I know I also need something about what happens if one half dies. I'm thinking that the other half should have a couple of weeks during which they sicken, withering away with Fatigued conditions they cannot remove until either they pass away or their other half is somehow resurrected.

BRKNdevil
2014-10-01, 07:09 AM
try to find the dragon compendium for 3.5, it had a race that was born as twins with a similar idea and mechanics.

stitchlipped
2014-10-01, 08:11 AM
try to find the dragon compendium for 3.5, it had a race that was born as twins with a similar idea and mechanics.

Yeah I had the Dvati in mind while working on this. I hope to put enough limitations on them that I can overcome some of the major problems that race suffered.

Daishain
2014-10-01, 08:53 AM
Instead of half HP or messing with HD, how about each half gaining 3/4ths of what they normally would? This still leads to a significant disadvantage, but not a crippling one. It also makes a little more sense, since one's health is largely dependent on form rather than spirit

You also haven't specified what occurs if either half is killed or incapacitated.

My suggestion:
If one is incapacitated, the other can continue taking actions, but takes disadvantage on all ability, attack, and save rolls until the other half is revived or dies.

If one is killed, roll a D10, the following effects are applied depending on the result
1-5 The other half dies immediately
6-7 the other half is crippled mentally, their mental attributes are each permanently reduced by 2d6. If this reduces intelligence below 3, character is now an NPC with animalistic mentality. If any attributes are reduced to 0, character dies. This effect can only be reversed by a miracle or wish, and is in addition to the effects of #8
8 Character takes disadvantage on all ability checks for 1d4 months as its mind and body adjusts to the loss. Other nonmechanical factors apply
9-10 the other half goes into a raging frenzy for 2d6 rounds. Apply all of the standard effects of a barbarian rage, the character can only take standard move and attack actions, and must pursue and attack the nearest other living creature it can see until the frenzy ends. After the frenzy ends, apply effects of #8

In the unlikely event a Woaven survives the loss of his other half with his faculties intact, none do so unchanged. They suffer through a loss of self and purpose. Many commit suicide rather than live on without their soulmate.

stitchlipped
2014-10-01, 09:09 AM
Instead of half HP or messing with HD, how about each half gaining 3/4ths of what they normally would? This still leads to a significant disadvantage, but not a crippling one. It also makes a little more sense, since one's health is largely dependent on form rather than spirit

You also haven't specified what occurs if either half is killed or incapacitated.

My suggestion:
If one is incapacitated, the other can continue taking actions, but takes disadvantage on all ability, attack, and save rolls until the other half is revived or dies.

If one is killed, roll a D10, the following effects are applied depending on the result
1-5 The other half dies immediately
6-7 the other half is crippled mentally, their mental attributes are each permanently reduced by 2d6. If this reduces intelligence below 3, character is now an NPC with animalistic mentality. If any attributes are reduced to 0, character dies. This effect can only be reversed by a miracle or wish, and is in addition to the effects of #8
8 Character takes disadvantage on all ability checks for 1d4 months as its mind and body adjusts to the loss. Other nonmechanical factors apply
9-10 the other half goes into a raging frenzy for 2d6 rounds. Apply all of the standard effects of a barbarian rage, the character can only take standard move and attack actions, and must pursue and attack the nearest other living creature it can see until the frenzy ends. After the frenzy ends, apply effects of #8

In the unlikely event a Woaven survives the loss of his other half with his faculties intact, none do so unchanged. They suffer through a loss of self and purpose. Many commit suicide rather than live on without their soulmate.

Good ideas both!

I like this effects of death a lot, with the caveat that resurrecting the dead half of the woaven would obviously restore them to full strength.

One thing I also forgot to include was the idea that the woaven should always be able to sense where it's two bodies are in relation to each other - it knows the direction, and an approximate distance. If this is ever blocked for any reason (such as through magic or one body being removed to another plane) then the woaven experiences disorientation until the severed connection is restored. Editing this into the original post.

Steel Mirror
2014-10-01, 11:12 AM
Cool idea, and quite the challenge you have laid out for yourself! I'll give my 2 cents on the subject, and hopefully something is useful.


One soul two bodies. You have two bodies that are controlled by a single mind. Your second body is an animal form chosen from the list of subraces presented below. Designer's note: I haven't created the subraces yet, but I am thinking they should be equivalent to a CR 1/4 beast except with only a single HD.

Your forms act independently of each other, but both are guided by your singular will. In combat, use the same roll for the initiative of both bodies but apply their unique initiative modifiers - while your mind instructs your bodies simultaneously, their reaction speeds can differ. Consequently, they act on their own turns.I wonder if having it work that way is worth the extra bookkeeping. With your initiative roll being the same, and only the modifier separating them, it will be rare indeed that an enemy happens to land between the two initiative values, which means that in most combats you are tracking an entirely separate number to no particular benefit. I think I would rather just have them use the same initiative and be done with it. But that's just a nitpick really; either way works fine.


Your animal body can also use any ability granted by your class that makes sense for an animal to accomplish. A class ability that can only be used a certain amount of times or requires the expenditure of a resource can be used by both bodies at the same time. All other class abilities can only be used by one body at a time - it is impossible for your mind to focus enough to extend them to both bodies.I'm not sure what this ability is saying, but for example a barbarian's rage or a fighter's action surge could be used by the companion, but not a Ranger's Hunter archetype or a rogue's sneak attack? Spells I assume are right out, but you'll probably want to mention that explicitly just so that it's clear.

I can see the intent here, but I think that there will be lots of unintended consequences that make some classes very attractive for the Woaven, and some all but pointless. The Champion archetype for the fighter, for instance, is based almost entirely on abilities that aren't expended, so the Woaven's companion gets almost nothing out of the class. The Battle Master, on the other hand, suddenly gets the benefit of twice as many superiority dice per battle (if I am reading the ability right, and every time you use a superiority die your companion gets the benefit for free), making it an incredibly powerful choice. Rogues at least benefit from having an ally to always get sneak attack off, but other than that their companion won't get much out of it. And realistically, most rogues in a party will use other party members to get their sneak attack off anyway, so that's not a huge boost in power. And so on- classes that happen to have lots of always-on abilities will suffer as Woaven, those that happen to manage abilities-per-rest will be far more attractive.

Wizards and other full casters also get relatively little out of the companion, since familiars can already deliver touch spells. Add to that the fact that the companion is siphoning off hp, and casters really don't do well as Woaven. Unless casting spells count as "A class ability that can only be used a certain amount of times or requires the expenditure of a resource", in which case they would be ridiculously broken.


Polymorph effects, including Wild Shape, only work on you if your two bodies are adjacent, as your whole being is required for the transformation to properly take effect.This effectively makes you immune to hostile polymorphing spells, which isn't a hugely unbalanced thing as far as I can tell, since polymorph effects are pretty rare. But keep in mind that it's basically a backdoor immunity, for when you are making other racial traits for the species.


The fruits of your experience are shared between your bodies. At 2nd level and every level thereafter, your humanoid form receives half of any hit points gained, rounded up. Your animal form receives the remainder. Designer's note: This could make members of this race too fragile to handle high level encounters, at which point it would cease to become a balancing factor and more of a deterrent to even playing them. An alternative I've considered is to give the humanoid form full HD and the animal form additional HD but at a slower progression, say every 3rd level.Alternatively, you could just have both forms share an hp total. What damages one, damages the other half of its soul as well. Though that would clash with the death effects thing you have going, so I suppose that isn't an option. It's the most balanced option I can think of off the top of my head, though.

I do think that having half hp is a pretty big bummer, but then having twice the action economy is a pretty huge advantage, so I'm not sure where I fall on this. It's a tough one. I'll think about it some more.

It's a cool idea, but it's going to be devilishly difficult to balance! Then again, so long as you play with a group that has an understanding not to optimize the hell out of it and milk it for every last tiny advantage, I think that most character concepts made with a Woaven won't be too problematic. I'll cogitate for a while, and I'll post again if I have any thoughts!

stitchlipped
2014-10-01, 12:34 PM
Cool idea, and quite the challenge you have laid out for yourself! I'll give my 2 cents on the subject, and hopefully something is useful.

I wonder if having it work that way is worth the extra bookkeeping. With your initiative roll being the same, and only the modifier separating them, it will be rare indeed that an enemy happens to land between the two initiative values, which means that in most combats you are tracking an entirely separate number to no particular benefit. I think I would rather just have them use the same initiative and be done with it. But that's just a nitpick really; either way works fine.

It's a fair concern. I quite liked the idea that the Woaven's humanoid form could be quite lumbering and clumsy while their animal form was much more agile (or vice versa), but I get your point. For the record, this part (and other parts) are loosely based on the Find Familiar spell - in that case, you actually roll for the Familiar separately. So rolling the dice once but applying the two different modifiers is no more bookkeeping than you'd have playing a mage with a familiar.



I'm not sure what this ability is saying, but for example a barbarian's rage or a fighter's action surge could be used by the companion, but not a Ranger's Hunter archetype or a rogue's sneak attack? Spells I assume are right out, but you'll probably want to mention that explicitly just so that it's clear.

I can see the intent here, but I think that there will be lots of unintended consequences that make some classes very attractive for the Woaven, and some all but pointless. The Champion archetype for the fighter, for instance, is based almost entirely on abilities that aren't expended, so the Woaven's companion gets almost nothing out of the class. The Battle Master, on the other hand, suddenly gets the benefit of twice as many superiority dice per battle (if I am reading the ability right, and every time you use a superiority die your companion gets the benefit for free), making it an incredibly powerful choice. Rogues at least benefit from having an ally to always get sneak attack off, but other than that their companion won't get much out of it. And realistically, most rogues in a party will use other party members to get their sneak attack off anyway, so that's not a huge boost in power. And so on- classes that happen to have lots of always-on abilities will suffer as Woaven, those that happen to manage abilities-per-rest will be far more attractive.

Wizards and other full casters also get relatively little out of the companion, since familiars can already deliver touch spells. Add to that the fact that the companion is siphoning off hp, and casters really don't do well as Woaven. Unless casting spells count as "A class ability that can only be used a certain amount of times or requires the expenditure of a resource", in which case they would be ridiculously broken.

The animal form's use of class abilities is restricted because it can only use class abilities that it makes sense that an animal could actually do. I've left that part intentionally vague to be up to group/GM interpretation. But in general, if it requires the use of a weapon, instrument, or other tool, or it requires speaking, or complex spell gestures, it should be out of the running. Other than the touch spell thing (borrowed direct from Find Familiar, because I feel like the animal form could act similarly to a familiar for a mage character) spells should not be available to the animal form as every spell should at minimum have one of the Verbal, Somatic, or Material component requirements, none of which the animal is capable of meeting.

You have read the bit about how class abilities are used slightly wrong. I'll try to clear up the language when I get home later.

If the ability has a limited amount of uses per rest period, or if the uses are based on resource expenditure (such as superiority dice) then both woaven bodies can use the ability, even on the same turn, but they share the same resources. A Battle Master doesn't double up on superiority dice, both bodies draw from the same pool.

The benefit here is the opening up of new strategies that use both bodies, particularly as each body could use a fighter's superiority dice/monk's ki/whatever in the same turn.

On the other hand, a class ability that is always on can only be used by a single body at a time, the intent being that the character can't double up on their effective power from such abilities which would undoubtedly be broken (like sneak attack, or an aura). If the humanoid form is using it the animal form can't. But on the next turn, it could be the other way around. So again, it opens up interesting tactical possibilities.



This effectively makes you immune to hostile polymorphing spells, which isn't a hugely unbalanced thing as far as I can tell, since polymorph effects are pretty rare. But keep in mind that it's basically a backdoor immunity, for when you are making other racial traits for the species.

Yeah, I realise that this is actually a positive as well as a negative for this race. I think it's fine though, and it prevents both bodies being polymorphed or entering Wild Shape for Dual Onion Druid cheese explosion.



Alternatively, you could just have both forms share an hp total. What damages one, damages the other half of its soul as well. Though that would clash with the death effects thing you have going, so I suppose that isn't an option. It's the most balanced option I can think of off the top of my head, though.

I do think that having half hp is a pretty big bummer, but then having twice the action economy is a pretty huge advantage, so I'm not sure where I fall on this. It's a tough one. I'll think about it some more.


I'm pretty open to all ideas on the hit point front. Your solution is pretty elegant - it does remove the story possibilities of what happens to the body left behind if the other dies though, and I think that could be quite a compelling narrative possibility. But hey, if sharing a single hit point pool works out more balanced, then that's fine.



It's a cool idea, but it's going to be devilishly difficult to balance! Then again, so long as you play with a group that has an understanding not to optimize the hell out of it and milk it for every last tiny advantage, I think that most character concepts made with a Woaven won't be too problematic. I'll cogitate for a while, and I'll post again if I have any thoughts!

Thanks, I'm pretty pleased with the concept - and yeah, it's going to be damned hard to get right. I think most of my group are mature enough not to exploit anything holes, or to mind much if I adjust the race on the fly. I'd like to try and pin it down before play though!

I really appreciate the excellent feedback, and look forward to any other ideas you might have.

Steel Mirror
2014-10-01, 11:30 PM
It's a fair concern. I quite liked the idea that the Woaven's humanoid form could be quite lumbering and clumsy while their animal form was much more agile (or vice versa), but I get your point. For the record, this part (and other parts) are loosely based on the Find Familiar spell - in that case, you actually roll for the Familiar separately. So rolling the dice once but applying the two different modifiers is no more bookkeeping than you'd have playing a mage with a familiar.True that. Go with what feels right.


The animal form's use of class abilities is restricted because it can only use class abilities that it makes sense that an animal could actually do. I've left that part intentionally vague to be up to group/GM interpretation.I figured that was the case, but I think the magic case would come up so often that it might be good to be explicit about t


You have read the bit about how class abilities are used slightly wrong. I'll try to clear up the language when I get home later.

If the ability has a limited amount of uses per rest period, or if the uses are based on resource expenditure (such as superiority dice) then both woaven bodies can use the ability, even on the same turn, but they share the same resources.That makes more sense, though I worry in that case about epic novas. A fighter Woaven popping his Action surge in the same turn that he uses a superiority dice, and then his other half uses a superiority dice as well, and they both use a bonus action ability that they got through some class ability/feat or another, could land a ton of damage and control effects all at once. I'm sure you could find similar opportunities to nova elsewhere in other classes.


The benefit here is the opening up of new strategies that use both bodies, particularly as each body could use a fighter's superiority dice/monk's ki/whatever in the same turn.Which is cool, admittedly. I don't know, I think my general thoughts on that are that you could almost certainly give this race to your players, whom you know pretty well and want to meet you halfway and have fun together, and things will be fine. If that is your audience for the race, I think you are getting close to balancing it about right. If you wanted to munchkin-proof it in the way that PHB races have to be edited, for release in the wild, as it were, I'm very afraid of how this violation of action economy might play out.


I'm pretty open to all ideas on the hit point front. Your solution is pretty elegant - it does remove the story possibilities of what happens to the body left behind if the other dies though, and I think that could be quite a compelling narrative possibility. But hey, if sharing a single hit point pool works out more balanced, then that's fine.Maybe you share hp until a hit is enough to take one of you out, and then at that point it only takes out whichever body was actually hit. So if you have 9 hp between you, and the animal body gets hit for 10 damage, it goes down but you are left standing, still with 9 hp? Or if you wanted to be really mean, with 1 hp.

Then you do the normal thing with death saves and the like.

Might be a way to have your singular hp value at the same time as having the possibility of losing half your soul, and having to either get it back or live sort of half-dead (reminds me of daemons from The Golden Compass).


Thanks, I'm pretty pleased with the concept - and yeah, it's going to be damned hard to get right.You should be! And though it might be complicated to get it right, like I said before, I think you are moving along nicely and I think that your players will probably be just fine with it.

stitchlipped
2014-10-02, 04:12 AM
I figured that was the case, but I think the magic case would come up so often that it might be good to be explicit about t

That makes more sense, though I worry in that case about epic novas. A fighter Woaven popping his Action surge in the same turn that he uses a superiority dice, and then his other half uses a superiority dice as well, and they both use a bonus action ability that they got through some class ability/feat or another, could land a ton of damage and control effects all at once. I'm sure you could find similar opportunities to nova elsewhere in other classes.

Which is cool, admittedly. I don't know, I think my general thoughts on that are that you could almost certainly give this race to your players, whom you know pretty well and want to meet you halfway and have fun together, and things will be fine. If that is your audience for the race, I think you are getting close to balancing it about right. If you wanted to munchkin-proof it in the way that PHB races have to be edited, for release in the wild, as it were, I'm very afraid of how this violation of action economy might play out.

Yeah, abuse for nova is definitely a possibility. As a DM I would consider it my responsibility to force the woaven into situations where it has to burn some of its resources before the big boss fight. Which is one reason I initially thought of limiting the hit points of the two bodies, making them more fragile. But sharing a hit point pool may also be enough for that - having two bodies that can be targets makes them a lot more likely to be hit than any other character.

Do you think it would be easier simply to restrict the woaven so that both bodies can never use the same class ability at the same time?

One thing that occurred to me while reading this is that both bodies probably shouldn't get a bonus action. I mean, it's the same mind controlling them right? How much processing can it really cope with? The woaven should get one bonus action per round, but get to choose which body uses it.

Possibly the same with reactions?



Maybe you share hp until a hit is enough to take one of you out, and then at that point it only takes out whichever body was actually hit. So if you have 9 hp between you, and the animal body gets hit for 10 damage, it goes down but you are left standing, still with 9 hp? Or if you wanted to be really mean, with 1 hp.

Then you do the normal thing with death saves and the like.

Might be a way to have your singular hp value at the same time as having the possibility of losing half your soul, and having to either get it back or live sort of half-dead (reminds me of daemons from The Golden Compass).

How about the other body also falls unconscious, but is automatically stable?

Steel Mirror
2014-10-02, 06:52 AM
Do you think it would be easier simply to restrict the woaven so that both bodies can never use the same class ability at the same time?

One thing that occurred to me while reading this is that both bodies probably shouldn't get a bonus action. I mean, it's the same mind controlling them right? How much processing can it really cope with? The woaven should get one bonus action per round, but get to choose which body uses it.

Possibly the same with reactions?My gut reaction is to go with limiting the character to 1 bonus action and 1 reaction and see if that is enough to reign in the nova. It might be that you have to eventually institute something akin to the first restriction, preventing a class ability from being expended doubly in a single round, but without playtesting it's hard to be sure, and it feels sort of kludgy to me for some reason. 1 bonus action and 1 reaction seems like a good place to start, IMO.


How about the other body also falls unconscious, but is automatically stable?You have a better feel for how you want the Woaven to 'feel' in play, but I personally think that having half of your soul be in critical condition, lying hurt on the battlefield with the clock ticking, might make for some gripping drama at the table when it gets taken out! But again, I don't think at this point that it is primarily a balance issue. Choose the the option there that you feel better about.

infinitetech
2014-10-04, 04:04 AM
this is such a great build, how about instead of the low hp pools you just make each body count as its own cl, you get 1/2 exp per body no haggling and if somehow one ends up miss lvld as in through death, using exp costing actions, so on and so forth, then there is a further exp penalty like when multi classing, this way you can also have each half get certain features of their own, when one dies and the other successfully survives there should be special effects, like if the person survives they become vastly mor mentaly powerful and bent on revenge/cruelty/something or if the other side survives they become stronger and rabid, wanting only to hunt down the killers, or just to kill, basically if one dies the other becomes darker, not even just evil, but they become the shade darker than the shadow

Amnoriath
2014-10-04, 02:14 PM
Hi guys,

I'm trying to make a race in which each "individual" actually has two physical bodies.

I haven't got a complete set of racial abilities worked out yet, because I'm honestly not sure how good the two bodies are and how many other racial abilities it would be fair for them to have.

I'd love some feedback on the "one soul, two bodies" ability. How good do you think this is? How many racial abilities from the PHB do you think this is equivalent to? How much more can I realistically give the race before they become totally broken (or is this ability broken already?)?

The fluff
The woaven are an aberration of a nature, a race in which it is normal to have two entirely unique physical forms linked by a single soul. Though it may seem a wonderful thing to have two bodies that can act independantly, the ability is as much a curse as a blessing. A soul halved is a soul weakened, and a woaven’s two halves are less resilient than any other race’s whole. Furthermore, harm to one half of the woaven often has consequences for the other half. Still, there are advantages too. A woaven lives their entire life seeing with two sets of eyes, acting with two sets of limbs, and they are therefore never alone. They always have an like-minded, unquestioningly loyal ally to back them up - even when that ally is their own self.

The woaven are mostly found in Osse’s South-Western region, eking out an existence on the plains and among the canyons at the edge of the arid zone. They survive in fairly hostile conditions thanks to their second halves, which take animalistic forms better suited to scavenge and hunt in the desert environs they live in.

One half of a woaven is a rangy humanoid with dusky grey skin, a hairless body, and yellow eyes. This half typically wears a drab hooded cloak to protect against the sun, and little else other than a loincloth underneath.

The other half takes an animalistic form, which varies by woaven tribe. These forms do not completely correspond to a single animal, and the woaven believe them to mirror archetypal forms, of which they share the beliefs of the ekidan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?373214-Homebrew-Races-PEACH&highlight=Ekidan). Both woaven and ekidan therefore consider this race to be uniquely touched by the Dreamtime.

Some cursed individuals have a second half that is unspeakable, a hazy entity of indiscernible shape - or rather, shapes that the mind quickly slides over and attempts to forget. These woaven have been touch by The Other, an entity of malevolence and destruction that rampages unchecked through the Dreamtime. Thoughts of destruction plague them, and their innermost desires are often acted out by their second form before they have a chance to have second thoughts. These cursed woaven are killed at birth, but some sentimental parents leave the tribe to save their children. Too often, their actions end in tragedy, for sooner or later The Other will dream of their deaths and the child will be compelled to act this out.

The ability
One soul two bodies. You have two bodies that are controlled by a single mind. Your second body is an animal form chosen from the list of subraces presented below. Designer's note: I haven't created the subraces yet, but I am thinking they should be equivalent to a CR 1/4 beast except with only a single HD.

Your forms act independently of each other, but both are guided by your singular will. In combat, use the same roll for the initiative of both bodies but apply their unique initiative modifiers - while your mind instructs your bodies simultaneously, their reaction speeds can differ. Consequently, they act on their own turns.

Your two bodies can separate, but if they are out of line of sight from each other when one or both bodies undergo a stressful experience, your shared mind suffers sensory overload and finds it difficult to cope with all the information. In such a situation, both bodies are at a disadvantage to ability checks, attack rolls, and Dexterity saving throws for the duration of the experience. You can voluntarily reduce the amount of input to one of your bodies, only taking a move action with that body on its turn. During the same round, the second body does not suffer disadvantage.

You suffer the same effects regardless of the distance between your two bodies if either or both of them undergoes a disorienting experience, for the duration of that experience. In this event, only the disoriented body can sacrifice their action, bonus action, and reaction to reduce the effects on the other body. If both bodies have been disoriented neither can remove the disadvantage until the effect ends.

While seperated, you always know where your bodies are in relation to each other - you know the direction, and an approximate distance between them. This sense can be blocked magically, or if both bodies are on different planes of existence. In either event then the woaven experiences disorientation as above until the severed connection is restored.

Any effect that targets your mind, such as the Charmed or Frightened conditions, affects both your bodies. Effects that target the body, such as all other conditions, apply only to the specific body they target (but may of course target both).

Your animal body can deliver a spell with a range of touch as though it had cast the spell. To do so it must be within 100 feet of your humanoid body, and it must use its reaction to deliver the spell when the humanoid body casts it.

Your animal body can also use any ability granted by your class that makes sense for an animal to accomplish. A class ability that can only be used a certain amount of times or requires the expenditure of a resource can be used by both bodies at the same time. All other class abilities can only be used by one body at a time - it is impossible for your mind to focus enough to extend them to both bodies.

Polymorph effects, including Wild Shape, only work on you if your two bodies are adjacent, as your whole being is required for the transformation to properly take effect.

The fruits of your experience are shared between your bodies. At 2nd level and every level thereafter, your humanoid form receives half of any hit points gained, rounded up. Your animal form receives the remainder. Designer's note: This could make members of this race too fragile to handle high level encounters, at which point it would cease to become a balancing factor and more of a deterrent to even playing them. An alternative I've considered is to give the humanoid form full HD and the animal form additional HD but at a slower progression, say every 3rd level.

PS. I know I also need something about what happens if one half dies. I'm thinking that the other half should have a couple of weeks during which they sicken, withering away with Fatigued conditions they cannot remove until either they pass away or their other half is somehow resurrected.

In a way 5e has already handled this for you. You can take a look at the Beastmaster Ranger in which the master simply gives up an action to give it to its companion without the worry about trying to balance with less hit points..etc. The rest of these abilities can be named seperately, making it easier to keep track of for the player. Then from there you could base each subrace based on what kind of animal they readily bond with having slightly different characteristics with each.

Daishain
2014-10-04, 07:47 PM
In a way 5e has already handled this for you. You can take a look at the Beastmaster Ranger in which the master simply gives up an action to give it to its companion without the worry about trying to balance with less hit points..etc. The rest of these abilities can be named seperately, making it easier to keep track of for the player. Then from there you could base each subrace based on what kind of animal they readily bond with having slightly different characteristics with each.
Ew, no. That decision made no sense whatsoever for the beastmaster, and still won't make sense for this. It was a lazy and shortsighted decision that ruined one of my favorite class features.

A great deal of the fun and advantage of the animal companion in previous editions was always being able to act as a unit, and the same would hold true for this race idea. Too many restrictions on what actions are taken, especially if you end up constantly being forced to decide which character will sit around and scratch their balls for this round, ruins that.

Granted, it makes slightly more sense in this case than with the beastmaster, given that the latter are not actually the same character. But it still cuts down on the fun.

Amnoriath
2014-10-04, 11:33 PM
Ew, no. That decision made no sense whatsoever for the beastmaster, and still won't make sense for this. It was a lazy and shortsighted decision that ruined one of my favorite class features.

A great deal of the fun and advantage of the animal companion in previous editions was always being able to act as a unit, and the same would hold true for this race idea. Too many restrictions on what actions are taken, especially if you end up constantly being forced to decide which character will sit around and scratch their balls for this round, ruins that.

Granted, it makes slightly more sense in this case than with the beastmaster, given that the latter are not actually the same character. But it still cuts down on the fun.

1. Actually even at first it can move just from a simple command requiring no action from you, meaning you can still move. It just uses your attack to attack which gets your proficiency bonus to attack, damage, and everything else it is proficient with or your bonus action to dash, help, dodge, or disengage actions. It then gets another attack netting you a three attack economy with two different moves and a bonus action on top of a much better share spells ability. While it is a little counter-intuitive, it does help solve the issue of a character within character power level.
2. The problem is though having a character within a character means a significant power increase something in which usual CR and treasure increases. How does that smaller character rate in terms of increased difficulty and appropriate loot? Here the Ranger is on terms with a monk's effective speed as well as attacks and some Rogue actions with 5th level spells that can be shared.

stitchlipped
2014-10-06, 08:33 AM
Thanks all for your continuing feedback!


this is such a great build, how about instead of the low hp pools you just make each body count as its own cl, you get 1/2 exp per body no haggling and if somehow one ends up miss lvld as in through death, using exp costing actions, so on and so forth, then there is a further exp penalty like when multi classing, this way you can also have each half get certain features of their own, when one dies and the other successfully survives there should be special effects, like if the person survives they become vastly mor mentaly powerful and bent on revenge/cruelty/something or if the other side survives they become stronger and rabid, wanting only to hunt down the killers, or just to kill, basically if one dies the other becomes darker, not even just evil, but they become the shade darker than the shadow

I think I would be worried about the character becoming overwhelmed when it starts lagging behind the rest of the party in levels due only getting half experience for each body. And if both bodies are getting an equal share, then I'm essentially letting the player have two characters.

Your effects idea is very cool - I think this could possibly be tied into Woaven who are paired with The Other.


In a way 5e has already handled this for you. You can take a look at the Beastmaster Ranger in which the master simply gives up an action to give it to its companion without the worry about trying to balance with less hit points..etc. The rest of these abilities can be named seperately, making it easier to keep track of for the player. Then from there you could base each subrace based on what kind of animal they readily bond with having slightly different characteristics with each.


Ew, no. That decision made no sense whatsoever for the beastmaster, and still won't make sense for this. It was a lazy and shortsighted decision that ruined one of my favorite class features.

A great deal of the fun and advantage of the animal companion in previous editions was always being able to act as a unit, and the same would hold true for this race idea. Too many restrictions on what actions are taken, especially if you end up constantly being forced to decide which character will sit around and scratch their balls for this round, ruins that.

Granted, it makes slightly more sense in this case than with the beastmaster, given that the latter are not actually the same character. But it still cuts down on the fun.

I agree with Daishain that it isn't a very satisfactory mechanic, although I actually disagree that it makes more sense for the Woaven. Quite the opposite. I can see the case for the character taking an action to verbally communicate a complex attack command to an animal companion. With the Woaven though, both bodies are meant to act simultaneously as instructed by a single central intelligence.

Here is an update to the race incorporating some of the feedback so far and adding my ideas for the subraces.

Woaven
The woaven are an aberration of a nature, a race in which it is normal to have two entirely unique physical forms linked by a single soul. Though it may seem a wonderful thing to have two bodies that can act independently, the ability is as much a curse as a blessing. A soul halved is a soul weakened, and a woaven’s two halves are less resilient than any other race’s whole. Furthermore, harm to one half of the woaven invariably has consequences for the other half. Still, there are advantages too. A woaven lives their entire life seeing with two sets of eyes, acting with two sets of limbs, and they are therefore never alone. They always have an like-minded, unquestioningly loyal ally to back them up - even when that ally is their own self.

The woaven are mostly found in Osse’s South-Western region, eking out an existence on the plains and among the canyons at the edge of the arid zone. They survive in fairly hostile conditions thanks to their second halves, which take animalistic forms better suited to scavenge and hunt in the desert environs they live in.

One half of a woaven is a rangy humanoid with dusky grey skin, a hairless body, and yellow eyes. This half typically wears a drab hooded cloak to protect against the sun, and little else other than a loincloth underneath.

The other half takes an animalistic form, which varies by woaven tribe. These forms do not completely correspond to a single animal, and the woaven believe them to mirror archetypal forms, of which they share the beliefs of the ekidan. Both woaven and ekidan therefore consider this race to be uniquely touched by the Dreamtime.

Some cursed individuals have a second half that is unspeakable, a hazy entity of indiscernible shape - or rather, shapes that the mind quickly slides over and attempts to forget. These woaven have been touch by The Other, an entity of malevolence and destruction that rampages unchecked through the Dreamtime. Thoughts of destruction plague them, and their innermost desires are often acted out by their second form before they have a chance to have second thoughts. These cursed woaven are killed at birth, but some sentimental parents leave the tribe to save their children. Too often, their actions end in tragedy, for sooner or later The Other will dream of their deaths and the child will be compelled to act this out.

Ability score increases. Your Wisdom score increases by 2.
Age. Woaven live for about 90 years, reaching adulthood at around 15 years old.
Alignment. Surviving in the harsh environments in which they dwell requires strict loyalty to the tribe and adherence to its rules. Woaven tend to be Lawful. The unfortunate Woaven linked to The Other is most likely Chaotic, and probably also Evil.
Size. Woaven tend to be tall and thin, averaging 6 feet in height. Your size is Medium. Your animal half is also Medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision. Woaven eyes are perfectly suited to night-time conditions. Both woaven halves therefore have superior vision in dark or dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as it it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern colour in darkness, only shades of grey.
One soul two bodies. You have two bodies that are controlled by a single mind. Your second body is an animal form chosen from the list of subraces presented below.

Your forms act independently of each other, but both are guided by your singular will. In combat, both bodies act on the same initiative - effectively, both share a single turn. Both bodies can move and take an action during your turn, but only one of them can take a bonus action. Furthermore only one of your bodies can make a reaction in a single round.

Your two bodies can separate, but if they are out of line of sight from each other when one or both bodies undergo a stressful experience, your shared mind suffers sensory overload and finds it difficult to cope with all the information. In such a situation, both bodies are at a disadvantage to ability checks, attack rolls, and Dexterity saving throws for the duration of the experience. You can voluntarily reduce the amount of input to one of your bodies, only taking a move action with that body on its turn. During the same round, the second body does not suffer disadvantage.

You suffer the same effects if either body undergoes a disorienting experience, regardless of the distance bergen your two bodies. In such an event, only the disoriented body can sacrifice their ability to act to reduce the effects on the other body. If both bodies have been disoriented neither can remove the disadvantage until the disorientation ends.

While seperated, you always know where your bodies are in relation to each other - you know the direction, and an approximate distance between them. This sense can be blocked magically, or if both bodies are on different planes of existence. In either event the woaven experiences disorientation as above until the severed connection is restored.

Any effect that targets your mind, such as the Charmed or Frightened conditions, affects both your bodies. Effects that target the body, such as all other conditions, apply only to the specific body they target (but may of course target both).

Your animal body can use any ability granted by your class that makes sense for an animal to accomplish. This excludes, among others, spells and abilities that rely on weapons, armour, or other carried items. Class abilities can only be used by one body at a time - it is impossible for your mind to focus enough to extend their benefits to both bodies.

Polymorph effects, including Wild Shape, only work on you if your two bodies are adjacent, as your whole being is required for the transformation to properly take effect.

To benefit from a short or long rest, both of the woaven's bodies must rest at the same time.

Your two bodies share a single hit point pool. Temporary hit points apply to the character, not a specific body. If you are reduced to 0 hit points then the body that was targeted by the damage falls unconscious as normal. Your second body remains standing and gains temporary hit points equal to your character level. It can continue to operate until it runs out of temporary hit points at which time it, too, falls unconscious. Magical healing cast on the active body restores your hit points as normal but does not stabilise the unconscious body nor bring it back to consciousness. Attempts to stabilise or heal the dying body must therefore target that particular body.

If one body dies make a Constitution save. If you roll less than 15 your second body also dies immediately from sheer shock. If you roll less than 20 your second body drops to 0 hit points immediately and falls unconscious, and must start making death saves. If you roll 20 or more your second body continues to function.

A woaven with just one body can survive and continue to function. It loses One Soul, Two Bodies. If the body remaining is the animal form it is recommended that the woaven becomes an NPC.

Form of the Swift
Ability scores. Since your spirit is shared between both bodies your second half uses the same Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma Ability scores as your humanoid body. To assign physical ability scores to your animal body take your humanoid body's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores and rearrange them (if necessary) prioritising the highest score as Dexterity, the second as Constitution, and the third as Strength.
Speed. This body has a speed of 50 feet.
Natural attacks. This body has a bite attack that deals 1d6 piercing damage, and up to two kick attacks that deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage.
Pounce. If this body moves at least 20 feet straight toward a creature right before hitting it with a kick attack, the target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw out be knocked prone. The DC equals 8 + this body's Dexterity modifier + your Proficiency bonus. If the target is knocked prone, this body can take a bonus action to make one bite attack against it.
Hit and run. When this body makes a melee attack against a creature, it doesn't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether it hit them or not.

Form of the Strong
Ability scores. Since your spirit is shared between both bodies your second half uses the same Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma Ability scores as your humanoid body. To assign physical ability scores to your animal body take your humanoid body's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores and rearrange them (if necessary) prioritising the highest score as Strength, the second as Constitution, and the third as Dexterity.
Speed. This body has a climb speed equal to your walking speed.
Natural attacks. This body has a bite attack that deals 1d6 piercing damage, and up to two claw attacks that deal 1d4 slashing damage.
Charge. If this body moves at least 20 feet straight toward a creature right before hitting it with a bite attack, the target takes an extra 1d6 piercing damage and must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be knocked prone. The DC equals 8 + this body's Strength modifier + your Proficiency bonus.
Tough hide. When this body takes bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, reduce the amount taken by 2.

Form of The Other
Ability scores. Increase your Intelligence by 2, but reduce your Wisdom by 4 and your Charisma by 2. Since your spirit is shared between both bodies your second half uses the same Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma Ability scores as your humanoid body. To assign physical ability scores to your animal body take your humanoid body's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores and rearrange them as you see fit. Then increase the animal body's Constitution and Strength by 2. Finally increase your humanoid body's Constitution and Strength by 2 as well.
Natural attacks. This body is capable of dealing 1d6 damage with its natural attacks. When you attack you decide whether the damage dealt will be Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing.
Necrotic burst. This body can use its action to itself in a deadly aura of Necrotic energy. Each creature in a 5-foot sphere must make a Constitution saving throw, the DC of which equals 8 + this body's Intelligence modifier + your Proficiency bonus. A creature takes 2d6 Necrotic damage on a failed save, and half as much on a successful one.

The damage increases to 3d6 at 6th level, 4d6 at 11th level, and 5d6 at 16th level.

After you use the Necrotic burst you can't use it again until you complete a short or long rest.
Damage resistance. This body has resistance to Necrotic damage.

Amnoriath
2014-10-06, 08:52 AM
I agree with Daishain that it isn't a very satisfactory mechanic, although I actually disagree that it makes more sense for the Woaven. Quite the opposite. I can see the case for the character taking an action to verbally communicate a complex attack command to an animal companion. With the Woaven though, both bodies are meant to act simultaneously as instructed by a single central intelligence.

Here is an update to the race incorporating some of the feedback so far and adding my ideas for the subraces.

Woaven
The woaven are an aberration of a nature, a race in which it is normal to have two entirely unique physical forms linked by a single soul. Though it may seem a wonderful thing to have two bodies that can act independently, the ability is as much a curse as a blessing. A soul halved is a soul weakened, and a woaven’s two halves are less resilient than any other race’s whole. Furthermore, harm to one half of the woaven invariably has consequences for the other half. Still, there are advantages too. A woaven lives their entire life seeing with two sets of eyes, acting with two sets of limbs, and they are therefore never alone. They always have an like-minded, unquestioningly loyal ally to back them up - even when that ally is their own self.

The woaven are mostly found in Osse’s South-Western region, eking out an existence on the plains and among the canyons at the edge of the arid zone. They survive in fairly hostile conditions thanks to their second halves, which take animalistic forms better suited to scavenge and hunt in the desert environs they live in.

One half of a woaven is a rangy humanoid with dusky grey skin, a hairless body, and yellow eyes. This half typically wears a drab hooded cloak to protect against the sun, and little else other than a loincloth underneath.

The other half takes an animalistic form, which varies by woaven tribe. These forms do not completely correspond to a single animal, and the woaven believe them to mirror archetypal forms, of which they share the beliefs of the ekidan. Both woaven and ekidan therefore consider this race to be uniquely touched by the Dreamtime.

Some cursed individuals have a second half that is unspeakable, a hazy entity of indiscernible shape - or rather, shapes that the mind quickly slides over and attempts to forget. These woaven have been touch by The Other, an entity of malevolence and destruction that rampages unchecked through the Dreamtime. Thoughts of destruction plague them, and their innermost desires are often acted out by their second form before they have a chance to have second thoughts. These cursed woaven are killed at birth, but some sentimental parents leave the tribe to save their children. Too often, their actions end in tragedy, for sooner or later The Other will dream of their deaths and the child will be compelled to act this out.

Ability score increases. Your Wisdom score increases by 2.
Age. Woaven live for about 90 years, reaching adulthood at around 15 years old.
Alignment. Surviving in the harsh environments in which they dwell requires strict loyalty to the tribe and adherence to its rules. Woaven tend to be Lawful. The unfortunate Woaven linked to The Other is most likely Chaotic, and probably also Evil.
Size. Woaven tend to be tall and thin, averaging 6 feet in height. Your size is Medium. Your animal half is also Medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision. Woaven eyes are perfectly suited to night-time conditions. Both woaven halves therefore have superior vision in dark or dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as it it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern colour in darkness, only shades of grey.
One soul two bodies. You have two bodies that are controlled by a single mind. Your second body is an animal form chosen from the list of subraces presented below.

Your forms act independently of each other, but both are guided by your singular will. In combat, both bodies act on the same initiative - effectively, both share a single turn. Both bodies can move and take an action during your turn, but only one of them can take a bonus action. Furthermore only one of your bodies can make a reaction in a single round.

Your two bodies can separate, but if they are out of line of sight from each other when one or both bodies undergo a stressful experience, your shared mind suffers sensory overload and finds it difficult to cope with all the information. In such a situation, both bodies are at a disadvantage to ability checks, attack rolls, and Dexterity saving throws for the duration of the experience. You can voluntarily reduce the amount of input to one of your bodies, only taking a move action with that body on its turn. During the same round, the second body does not suffer disadvantage.

You suffer the same effects if either body undergoes a disorienting experience, regardless of the distance bergen your two bodies. In such an event, only the disoriented body can sacrifice their ability to act to reduce the effects on the other body. If both bodies have been disoriented neither can remove the disadvantage until the disorientation ends.

While seperated, you always know where your bodies are in relation to each other - you know the direction, and an approximate distance between them. This sense can be blocked magically, or if both bodies are on different planes of existence. In either event the woaven experiences disorientation as above until the severed connection is restored.

Any effect that targets your mind, such as the Charmed or Frightened conditions, affects both your bodies. Effects that target the body, such as all other conditions, apply only to the specific body they target (but may of course target both).

Your animal body can use any ability granted by your class that makes sense for an animal to accomplish. This excludes, among others, spells and abilities that rely on weapons, armour, or other carried items. Class abilities can only be used by one body at a time - it is impossible for your mind to focus enough to extend their benefits to both bodies.

Polymorph effects, including Wild Shape, only work on you if your two bodies are adjacent, as your whole being is required for the transformation to properly take effect.

To benefit from a short or long rest, both of the woaven's bodies must rest at the same time.

Your two bodies share a single hit point pool. Temporary hit points apply to the character, not a specific body. If you are reduced to 0 hit points then the body that was targeted by the damage falls unconscious as normal. Your second body remains standing and gains temporary hit points equal to your character level. It can continue to operate until it runs out of temporary hit points at which time it, too, falls unconscious. Magical healing cast on the active body restores your hit points as normal but does not stabilise the unconscious body nor bring it back to consciousness. Attempts to stabilise or heal the dying body must therefore target that particular body.

If one body dies make a Constitution save. If you roll less than 15 your second body also dies immediately from sheer shock. If you roll less than 20 your second body drops to 0 hit points immediately and falls unconscious, and must start making death saves. If you roll 20 or more your second body continues to function.

A woaven with just one body can survive and continue to function. It loses One Soul, Two Bodies. If the body remaining is the animal form it is recommended that the woaven becomes an NPC.

Form of the Swift
Ability scores. Since your spirit is shared between both bodies your second half uses the same Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma Ability scores as your humanoid body. To assign physical ability scores to your animal body take your humanoid body's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores and rearrange them (if necessary) prioritising the highest score as Dexterity, the second as Constitution, and the third as Strength.
Speed. This body has a speed of 50 feet.
Natural attacks. This body has a bite attack that deals 1d6 piercing damage, and up to two kick attacks that deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage.
Pounce. If this body moves at least 20 feet straight toward a creature right before hitting it with a kick attack, the target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw out be knocked prone. The DC equals 8 + this body's Dexterity modifier + your Proficiency bonus. If the target is knocked prone, this body can take a bonus action to make one bite attack against it.
Hit and run. When this body makes a melee attack against a creature, it doesn't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether it hit them or not.

Form of the Strong
Ability scores. Since your spirit is shared between both bodies your second half uses the same Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma Ability scores as your humanoid body. To assign physical ability scores to your animal body take your humanoid body's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores and rearrange them (if necessary) prioritising the highest score as Strength, the second as Constitution, and the third as Dexterity.
Speed. This body has a climb speed equal to your walking speed.
Natural attacks. This body has a bite attack that deals 1d6 piercing damage, and up to two claw attacks that deal 1d4 slashing damage.
Charge. If this body moves at least 20 feet straight toward a creature right before hitting it with a bite attack, the target takes an extra 1d6 piercing damage and must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be knocked prone. The DC equals 8 + this body's Strength modifier + your Proficiency bonus.
Tough hide. When this body takes bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, reduce the amount taken by 2.

Form of The Other
Ability scores. Increase your Intelligence by 2, but reduce your Wisdom by 4 and your Charisma by 2. Since your spirit is shared between both bodies your second half uses the same Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma Ability scores as your humanoid body. To assign physical ability scores to your animal body take your humanoid body's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores and rearrange them as you see fit. Then increase the animal body's Constitution and Strength by 2. Finally increase your humanoid body's Constitution and Strength by 2 as well.
Natural attacks. This body is capable of dealing 1d6 damage with its natural attacks. When you attack you decide whether the damage dealt will be Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing.
Necrotic burst. This body can use its action to itself in a deadly aura of Necrotic energy. Each creature in a 5-foot sphere must make a Constitution saving throw, the DC of which equals 8 + this body's Intelligence modifier + your Proficiency bonus. A creature takes 2d6 Necrotic damage on a failed save, and half as much on a successful one.

The damage increases to 3d6 at 6th level, 4d6 at 11th level, and 5d6 at 16th level.

After you use the Necrotic burst you can't use it again until you complete a short or long rest.
Damage resistance. This body has resistance to Necrotic damage.

1. The flavor may be different but the only difference is one is vocal and the other is telepathing. Here though effectively you are still giving them the choice to act completely in accord to in and of themselves while on their turn. How does that fit into the idea of one mind when the separate individual actions say otherwise?
"The problem is though having a character within a character means a significant power increase something in which usual CR and treasure increases. How does that one character rate in terms of increased difficulty and appropriate loot?"
2. In no way is this even close to the same terms of power of any race. If there were level adjustment this would at least take 2 if not 3. You have effectively given them an entire extra turn in two places on the field while giving them abilities seen in CR 1 animals. The same hit point table is really minor because one could easily be supporting the other in battle which would be the classical set up.

stitchlipped
2014-10-06, 09:14 AM
1. The flavor may be different but the only difference is one is vocal and the other is telepathing. Here though effectively you are still giving them the choice to act completely in accord to in and of themselves while on their turn. How does that fit into the idea of one mind when the separate individual actions say otherwise?

No, it's not telepathy. They're not two individuals, they're two sacks of meat that happen to be controlled by a single intelligence. They are the same character. Acting under the same intelligence doesn't necessarily mean they take the same action. It's the same as you or I being able to control our left and right hands independently, except for the Woaven, it's two physical bodies, not two limbs.



2. In no way is this even close to the same terms of power of any race. If there were level adjustment this would at least take 2 if not 3. You have effectively given them an entire extra turn in two places on the field while giving them abilities seen in CR 1 animals. The same hit point table is really minor because one could easily be supporting the other in battle which would be the classical set up.

Actually, they don't get an entire extra turn as bonus actions and reactions are ruled out. As are using the same class ability with both bodies. That means, for instance, one of the two bodies can at most make a single attack. That body is most likely going to be the animal body, since it has a 1d6 natural attack and you'll want to save the bonus action and reaction for the humanoid body capable of making weapon attacks etc. Big whoop.

Also, which abilities, specifically? Pounce and Charge are seen in CR 1/4 animals. See the Panther and the Boar. I can't remember where I got Hit and Run from, but it's only useful if the body keeps moving which in many ways is hardly optimal. Tough Hide is less than half the benefit of the feat than grants DR 3 to those damage types plus +1 in an ability.
Remember as well that all of these abilities can only be used by the animal body. The humanoid body just gets Darkvision.

You also don't seem to even have considered that there are also quite a lot of drawbacks to the two bodies built in which make one or both of them crippled with disadvantage, with the conditions for achieving it being quite easy.

Amnoriath
2014-10-06, 11:31 AM
No, it's not telepathy. They're not two individuals, they're two sacks of meat that happen to be controlled by a single intelligence. They are the same character. Acting under the same intelligence doesn't necessarily mean they take the same action. It's the same as you or I being able to control our left and right hands independently, except for the Woaven, it's two physical bodies, not two limbs.



Actually, they don't get an entire extra turn as bonus actions and reactions are ruled out. As are using the same class ability with both bodies. That means, for instance, one of the two bodies can at most make a single attack. That body is most likely going to be the animal body, since it has a 1d6 natural attack and you'll want to save the bonus action and reaction for the humanoid body capable of making weapon attacks etc. Big whoop.

Also, which abilities, specifically? Pounce and Charge are seen in CR 1/4 animals. See the Panther and the Boar. I can't remember where I got Hit and Run from, but it's only useful if the body keeps moving which in many ways is hardly optimal. Tough Hide is less than half the benefit of the feat than grants DR 3 to those damage types plus +1 in an ability.
Remember as well that all of these abilities can only be used by the animal body. The humanoid body just gets Darkvision.

You also don't seem to even have considered that there are also quite a lot of drawbacks to the two bodies built in which make one or both of them crippled with disadvantage, with the conditions for achieving it being quite easy.

1. So you are saying that if you are good at both and ambidextrous you can paint a piece of art work with one hand and program a computer with the other with no drawbacks or time difference? This isn't simply multi-tasking or making different gestures to better complete a task, it means you are doing 2 different things at the same time.
2. Bonus actions can only be used for something if you actually have an ability that says you can use it. Except for one the same goes for reaction. While there are a lot of them out there because you have two different beings with that utilize the exact same class they have more opportunity to use them. Many of them are situational, especially for the reaction.
3. Except they have both and the one you are thinking of was Heavy Armor Master which means they won't have a dexterity bonus. One also has a special speed.
4. Only makes the loop more obvious.
5. Again, it only takes one of them to have an ability or item to cancel it out.

stitchlipped
2014-10-06, 01:22 PM
1. So you are saying that if you are good at both and ambidextrous you can paint a piece of art work with one hand and program a computer with the other with no drawbacks or time difference? This isn't simply multi-tasking or making different gestures to better complete a task, it means you are doing 2 different things at the same time.
2. Bonus actions can only be used for something if you actually have an ability that says you can use it. Except for one the same goes for reaction. While there are a lot of them out there because you have two different beings with that utilize the exact same class they have more opportunity to use them. Many of them are situational, especially for the reaction.
3. Except they have both and the one you are thinking of was Heavy Armor Master which means they won't have a dexterity bonus. One also has a special speed.
4. Only makes the loop more obvious.
5. Again, it only takes one of them to have an ability or item to cancel it out.

1. No but that's irrelevant. What I am saying is that the Woaven can direct both bodies at once instantaneously. That's the single key concept of the race and it's not changing. That said, they don't always do it well - they can be easily distracted, which affects both bodies in a serious way. Which leads us on to point 2.
2. No, really, there are loads of limiters in place. Both bodies can take a move action and an attack action during the turn, but actually, most often one body will only take a move action. Otherwise both get disadvantage to ability checks, attack rolls, and Dexterity saving throws. This is because combat is one of the many situations that count asstressful. It can also happen any time they are disoriented. These aren't Conditions built into the game, they're deliberately vague which means the DM has great control over when it applies. Gravity got reversed? You're disoriented, take disadvantage. Running from a giant boulder? That's stressful, take disadvantage. Oh and if one body falls victim to a Charm or Fear effect then it applies to both. If anything the Woaven are really unoptimised when it comes to adventuring, except for the tactical element of having two bodies... which given all the things that work against it I don't see the problem.
3. They don't have both. The abilities belong to different subraces.
4 & 5. They're never going to have enough items between them to block out all the things that can make them suffer. Especially when those magic items would have to make them immune to combat and traps.

Honestly it feels like you've had a panic reaction to the very idea of breaking the action economy and you're looking for anything you can to not like without actually considering the conditions put in place to make them reasonable. I'm not saying the race is perfectly balanced yet but it's definitely nowhere near as good as you think it is.

Amnoriath
2014-10-06, 01:59 PM
1. No but that's irrelevant. What I am saying is that the Woaven can direct both bodies at once instantaneously. That's the single key concept of the race and it's not changing. That said, they don't always do it well - they can be easily distracted, which affects both bodies in a serious way. Which leads us on to point 2.
2. No, really, there are loads of limiters in place. Both bodies can take a move action and an attack action during the turn, but actually, most often one body will only take a move action. Otherwise both get disadvantage to ability checks, attack rolls, and Dexterity saving throws. This is because combat is one of the many situations that count asstressful. It can also happen any time they are disoriented. These aren't Conditions built into the game, they're deliberately vague which means the DM has great control over when it applies. Gravity got reversed? You're disoriented, take disadvantage. Running from a giant boulder? That's stressful, take disadvantage. Oh and if one body falls victim to a Charm or Fear effect then it applies to both. If anything the Woaven are really unoptimised when it comes to adventuring, except for the tactical element of having two bodies... which given all the things that work against it I don't see the problem.
3. They don't have both. The abilities belong to different subraces.
4 & 5. They're never going to have enough items between them to block out all the things that can make them suffer. Especially when those magic items would have to make them immune to combat and traps.

Honestly it feels like you've had a panic reaction to the very idea of breaking the action economy and you're looking for anything you can to not like without actually considering the conditions put in place to make them reasonable. I'm not saying the race is perfectly balanced yet but it's definitely nowhere near as good as you think it is.

1. Just because they are capable of doing so doesn't mean they only have a single mind. Clearly each creature is capable of assessing the situations in each of its respects so that they can take their own actions. This at least entails a fissure of minds like multiple personalities except they have two different bodies and brains.
2. You misunderstood your own limitation. That only happens if they lose sight of one another, and one only spends a move action to remove that hindrance. I am sorry but if you are expecting that all those things happen only affect the Woaven and no one else than the DM is specifically targeting him while waving away the others.
3. Strong has Charge, Tough, and a 30 climb speed. Swift has 50 speed, Pounce, and Hit-run. That is what I always talking about.
4. Who says it has to be items? Many class feature or spells(when cast) that they would share can easily over lap these penalties. The point is all it needs is a good support in which it can get for itself or others in the party. In fact it wouldn't be too hard to eliminate that lose sight factor at all as it only needs a single spell.

infinitetech
2014-10-07, 01:52 AM
amnorath, if you have a strong enough mind or one suited for since they are born that way and grow up that way they would be perfectly fine, such tasks then yes, this sort of action is perfectly natural, THEY ARE NOT HUMAN SO DO NOT LIMIT THEM BY YOUR HUMAN MIND'S OWN LIMITS, ahem, sorry bout that, but seriously, this is not that abnormal, technically in real life id only need to force like 3 or 4 sectors in your brain to trigger off stimuli in order for you to do this, and thus natural creatures like this could do it easy, id almost say cut back on whats stressful actually, also, since the mind is one system they should not be block-able, any attempt to do so would end up with them catatonic of in a coma, or it just wouldn't work, in fact if they did split it successfully most likely both halves would end up going the dark way and would become destructive beings that are completely inconsolable unless somehow rejoined, taking massive hits to the mental stability and becoming enraged

stitchlipped
2014-10-07, 04:56 AM
1. Just because they are capable of doing so doesn't mean they only have a single mind. Clearly each creature is capable of assessing the situations in each of its respects so that they can take their own actions. This at least entails a fissure of minds like multiple personalities except they have two different bodies and brains.
2. You misunderstood your own limitation. That only happens if they lose sight of one another, and one only spends a move action to remove that hindrance. I am sorry but if you are expecting that all those things happen only affect the Woaven and no one else than the DM is specifically targeting him while waving away the others.
3. Strong has Charge, Tough, and a 30 climb speed. Swift has 50 speed, Pounce, and Hit-run. That is what I always talking about.
4. Who says it has to be items? Many class feature or spells(when cast) that they would share can easily over lap these penalties. The point is all it needs is a good support in which it can get for itself or others in the party. In fact it wouldn't be too hard to eliminate that lose sight factor at all as it only needs a single spell.

1. I'm sorry, but would you stop trying to tell me what the race I created is capable of? They have a single mind that controls both bodies simultaneously. If you have to think about it as having two brains, then each brain is sharing the same thoughts at the same time - but processing the necessary data to make both bodies act in parallel.

2. No, you're misunderstanding it.

Wrong: To get rid of the hindrance, one of the bodies gives up a Move action.

Right: To get rid of the hindrance, one of the bodies can only take a move action. To be absolutely clear, this also means that the body should not be able to take a reaction.

Note also the hindrance can be caused in many many ways other than simply losing sight of each other.

You mention other characters being affected by the same disadvantages. Well, there are two broad categories of events that can affect the Woaven:

Stress: This is not a condition in the game and is unique to the Woaven. No GM is going to houserule that getting into combat or triggering a trap causes disadvantage to all PCs.
Disoriented: Again this is not a condition in the game, but I can see how a DM might say something that is disorienting causes disadvantage to any character, not just the Woaven.

There are some situations where the Woaven actually is better off than similarly affected PCs to be sure, because if only one body got affected the other can act normally if the affected body restricts its actions. However, that is appropriate by design intent - the Woaven simply stops focusing on one of its bodies to open up more processing for handling the other.

If both bodies are hit by the disorienting effect then there is no loophole for the Woaven: "If both bodies have been disoriented neither can remove the disadvantage until the effect ends."

4. I'm skipping ahead to cover all the feedback on One Soul, Two Bodies before I go on to the feedback on subrace abilities.

Again, I know of no combination of items or abilities that can make characters immune from getting into combat or encountering traps or miscellaneous other dangers. All of these count as stressful to the Woaven, which triggers the disadvantage. If there are ways in the game that prevent the Woaven being stressed, I don't know what they are, as it is not a condition. I suspect anything that is available would come down to the wording of the spell/ability mentioning calming effect, and then whether they succeed or not would be down to DM call. However if you can provide specific examples of how you could, totally within RAW, eliminate this massive weakness, I would be more inclined to worry.

I'm going to go ahead and just say that I'm not that interested in changing how One Soul, Two Bodies works right now. I see it as the iconic ability for the race, based on how I conceive them. "Fixing" it in the way you'd like me to would completely change them from how I want the race to be and if I do that I might as well just give up now.

I think it's okay, and would like to playtest it in my campaign to see for myself whether it works and what unintended effects it creates. My players are mature enough to know a homebrew race may be adjusted on the fly.

What I'm interested in now is feedback on the other racial abilities, based on their perceived strength in conjunction with One Soul, Two bodies. With that in mind, point 3:

3. Go away and look at some of the abilities the PHB races get. Then look at the Woaven's subraces again. Then remember that only the animal form is getting these abilities and the humanoid form basically gets nothing other than the ability to see in the dark. Do these really seem that bad? I'm not convinced yet. Can you give a few examples of how you think these could break the game?

infinitetech
2014-10-07, 05:02 AM
personaly i rather like this class

Amnoriath
2014-10-07, 09:21 AM
1. I'm sorry, but would you stop trying to tell me what the race I created is capable of? They have a single mind that controls both bodies simultaneously. If you have to think about it as having two brains, then each brain is sharing the same thoughts at the same time - but processing the necessary data to make both bodies act in parallel.

2. No, you're misunderstanding it.

Wrong: To get rid of the hindrance, one of the bodies gives up a Move action.

Right: To get rid of the hindrance, one of the bodies can only take a move action. To be absolutely clear, this also means that the body should not be able to take a reaction.

Note also the hindrance can be caused in many many ways other than simply losing sight of each other.

You mention other characters being affected by the same disadvantages. Well, there are two broad categories of events that can affect the Woaven:

Stress: This is not a condition in the game and is unique to the Woaven. No GM is going to houserule that getting into combat or triggering a trap causes disadvantage to all PCs.
Disoriented: Again this is not a condition in the game, but I can see how a DM might say something that is disorienting causes disadvantage to any character, not just the Woaven.

There are some situations where the Woaven actually is better off than similarly affected PCs to be sure, because if only one body got affected the other can act normally if the affected body restricts its actions. However, that is appropriate by design intent - the Woaven simply stops focusing on one of its bodies to open up more processing for handling the other.

If both bodies are hit by the disorienting effect then there is no loophole for the Woaven: "If both bodies have been disoriented neither can remove the disadvantage until the effect ends."

4. I'm skipping ahead to cover all the feedback on One Soul, Two Bodies before I go on to the feedback on subrace abilities.

Again, I know of no combination of items or abilities that can make characters immune from getting into combat or encountering traps or miscellaneous other dangers. All of these count as stressful to the Woaven, which triggers the disadvantage. If there are ways in the game that prevent the Woaven being stressed, I don't know what they are, as it is not a condition. I suspect anything that is available would come down to the wording of the spell/ability mentioning calming effect, and then whether they succeed or not would be down to DM call. However if you can provide specific examples of how you could, totally within RAW, eliminate this massive weakness, I would be more inclined to worry.

I'm going to go ahead and just say that I'm not that interested in changing how One Soul, Two Bodies works right now. I see it as the iconic ability for the race, based on how I conceive them. "Fixing" it in the way you'd like me to would completely change them from how I want the race to be and if I do that I might as well just give up now.

I think it's okay, and would like to playtest it in my campaign to see for myself whether it works and what unintended effects it creates. My players are mature enough to know a homebrew race may be adjusted on the fly.

What I'm interested in now is feedback on the other racial abilities, based on their perceived strength in conjunction with One Soul, Two bodies. With that in mind, point 3:

3. Go away and look at some of the abilities the PHB races get. Then look at the Woaven's subraces again. Then remember that only the animal form is getting these abilities and the humanoid form basically gets nothing other than the ability to see in the dark. Do these really seem that bad? I'm not convinced yet. Can you give a few examples of how you think these could break the game?
1. And what you are saying is simply a rationalization for the justification of the ability rather than the logical execution or implications of said ability or the flavor you gave.
2 and 4. Here is your full quote: "Your two bodies can separate, but if they are out of line of sight from each other when one or both bodies undergo a stressful experience, your shared mind suffers sensory overload and finds it difficult to cope with all the information. In such a situation, both bodies are at a disadvantage to ability checks, attack rolls, and Dexterity saving throws for the duration of the experience. You can voluntarily reduce the amount of input to one of your bodies, only taking a move action with that body on its turn. During the same round, the second body does not suffer disadvantage." It clearly says that the line of sight or more of the RAI interpretation lose track of the other(Should a tree really say I don't know where my other half is when I just saw them walk there?) is the first qualifying condition before the stress. As such anything that gives an effect something similar to clairvoyance, scrying,...etc or many divinations used to track others with will stop this from happening.
3. Well keep in mind your ability pretty much allows for the transfer of any ability that would make sense for animal. So, as a rule of thumb anything to do with social interaction, knowledge, or spells seems to be the rule of thumb, meaning anything dealing with physical infliction or prowess as well as mental ignorance is appropriate. Also since they share the same hit point pool the human half need only target itself and many buffs give temporary hit points.

Amnoriath
2014-10-07, 09:57 AM
amnorath, if you have a strong enough mind or one suited for since they are born that way and grow up that way they would be perfectly fine, such tasks then yes, this sort of action is perfectly natural, THEY ARE NOT HUMAN SO DO NOT LIMIT THEM BY YOUR HUMAN MIND'S OWN LIMITS, ahem, sorry bout that, but seriously, this is not that abnormal, technically in real life id only need to force like 3 or 4 sectors in your brain to trigger off stimuli in order for you to do this, and thus natural creatures like this could do it easy, id almost say cut back on whats stressful actually, also, since the mind is one system they should not be block-able, any attempt to do so would end up with them catatonic of in a coma, or it just wouldn't work, in fact if they did split it successfully most likely both halves would end up going the dark way and would become destructive beings that are completely inconsolable unless somehow rejoined, taking massive hits to the mental stability and becoming enraged
Absolute straw man of what I said. I am saying you can't empirically say when two different beings have different actions, experiences, bodies, personalities, and abilities their are only one. If anyone here is being dogmatic it is the ones holding to a flavor in which they don't mechanically execute and disregard each one of these beings individuality.
P.S. the problem is that it is a LA +0 race, not a class.

Steel Mirror
2014-10-07, 12:32 PM
At this point, Amnoriath, it's pretty clear that you don't care for the idea of a race that consists of two bodies simultaneously, with one soul, each acting more or less independently. I personally kind of like the idea, I haven't seen it done before except for maybe in The Golden Compass, but you are of course totally entitled to your opinion. But this thread is for people who are interested in the race, and want to give feedback on how to make it work. You gave your feedback, the designer said 'thanks, but I'll keep doing what I am doing,' so probably there isn't much more you really need to say. :smallwink: The race is not for you, which is fine, it happens. Happy gaming!

stichlipped, I haven't had a chance to go over the updated version of the race in detail yet, but when I do I'll come back and share my thoughts.

Amnoriath
2014-10-07, 01:21 PM
At this point, Amnoriath, it's pretty clear that you don't care for the idea of a race that consists of two bodies simultaneously, with one soul, each acting more or less independently. I personally kind of like the idea, I haven't seen it done before except for maybe in The Golden Compass, but you are of course totally entitled to your opinion. But this thread is for people who are interested in the race, and want to give feedback on how to make it work. You gave your feedback, the designer said 'thanks, but I'll keep doing what I am doing,' so probably there isn't much more you really need to say. :smallwink: The race is not for you, which is fine, it happens. Happy gaming!

stichlipped, I haven't had a chance to go over the updated version of the race in detail yet, but when I do I'll come back and share my thoughts.

No, I like the concept, don't think I am here to completely trash the idea simply because I keep backing up what I said and pose the obvious metaphysical questions as well as observations. If I had no interest I wouldn't take the time to reply so please don't patronize me. I have been getting enough of it from the other two who don't even bother to read what I said or even what they typed. I know you are just trying to be nice and probably patronization isn't your goal, but please read what I said especially in relation to how I was answered. All I am doing is trying to get an understanding that it needs balance in relation to others. The character within a character dilemma always poses the question of appropriate power and loot to ask what is a suitable challenge and reward for this odd sub-character especially when others might have a cantrip, a little extra contingent damage, a few contingent save abilities, a couple of proficiencies, or a feat? Even if he would address what I said what he has is a set of tandem characters that the player has to tip-toe across the mine-field to not be in violation of something or be afflicted with something which is just going to give them and the DM headaches making the reward a bit superfluous. In short simplicity and/or graduation is needed.

Steel Mirror
2014-10-07, 01:33 PM
I'll put it this way. The OP has, in essence, said 'I want to make a race that has two bodies, each of which get to act with their own action and movement, though they share reactions and bonus actions in order to reign in the worst abuses. Can you help me balance that and make it fun to play?"

You came back with, "I don't think you can balance them if they both act independently, and also I don't think it makes thematic sense."

So far so good. But the OP has thanked you for your input, but decided to go ahead anyway. You disagree with his decision to do so, which is fine, but at this point we're trying to help him make his concept work, not continue to try to convince him to abandon the concept in favor of a new one. To the extent that you are trying to get him to adopt a new concept, I'm just not sure whether that's helpful to him, or helpful to you, since the two of you are just on different "wavelengths" on this issue.

I'm not trying to be condescending here, just trying to help us all get to the point where we are communicating on the same level.

stitchlipped
2014-10-07, 02:17 PM
1. And what you are saying is simply a rationalization for the justification of the ability rather than the logical execution or implications of said ability or the flavor you gave.

It's your opinion that it isn't a logical execution. I have respectfully disagreed. Whatever changes I do make, I don't want the race ability to function like the Beastmaster ability.


2 and 4. Here is your full quote: "Your two bodies can separate, but if they are out of line of sight from each other when one or both bodies undergo a stressful experience, your shared mind suffers sensory overload and finds it difficult to cope with all the information. In such a situation, both bodies are at a disadvantage to ability checks, attack rolls, and Dexterity saving throws for the duration of the experience. You can voluntarily reduce the amount of input to one of your bodies, only taking a move action with that body on its turn. During the same round, the second body does not suffer disadvantage." It clearly says that the line of sight or more of the RAI interpretation lose track of the other(Should a tree really say I don't know where my other half is when I just saw them walk there?) is the first qualifying condition before the stress.

You are in fact completely right about this, I have been remembering my own wording wrong which does in fact make the limiting factors of this ability less significant as currently written. With that in mind I will agree that maybe the subrace abilities are, right now, quite possibly too powerful. In fact as I've been thinking and responding based on the idea that the woaven gets stressed in any combat situation regardless of line of sight maybe I should just roll with that.

TBH I'm not even that keen on the line of sight thing. I included it basically to keep the ability in line with other abilities in the game such as the paladin's ability to detect nearby outsiders, and undead which for some reason stops at the nearest walls.

Amnoriath
2014-10-07, 02:17 PM
I'll put it this way. The OP has, in essence, said 'I want to make a race that has two bodies, each of which get to act with their own action and movement, though they share reactions and bonus actions in order to reign in the worst abuses. Can you help me balance that and make it fun to play?"

You came back with, "I don't think you can balance them if they both act independently, and also I don't think it makes thematic sense."

So far so good. But the OP has thanked you for your input, but decided to go ahead anyway. You disagree with his decision to do so, which is fine, but at this point we're trying to help him make his concept work, not continue to try to convince him to abandon the concept in favor of a new one. To the extent that you are trying to get him to adopt a new concept, I'm just not sure whether that's helpful to him, or helpful to you, since the two of you are just on different "wavelengths" on this issue.

I'm not trying to be condescending here, just trying to help us all get to the point where we are communicating on the same level.

It isn't that I wouldn't have that happen at some point but in the beginning levels this is a really big advantage and adding all these afflictions and qualifications doesn't really assuage that advantage especially when all it takes is a couple spells. It just leads to information pile up and more head scratching on can they or can't they, are they or are they not in both the player and DM. This is why I mentioned a simpler/graduated approach because obviously it would make sense that some Woaven have better direction of their other half than others in just a relative increase in power of levels.

stitchlipped
2014-10-07, 02:20 PM
For what it's worth I genuinely want to thank everyone for their valuable responses and that includes Amnoriath, especially since my responses to him/her have been partly predicated on a false memory of my own designs! Thanks for persevering.

stitchlipped
2014-10-07, 02:22 PM
It isn't that I wouldn't have that happen at some point but in the beginning levels this is a really big advantage and adding all these afflictions and qualifications doesn't really assuage that advantage especially when all it takes is a couple spells. It just leads to information pile up and more head scratching on can they or can't they, are they or are they not in both the player and DM. This is why I mentioned a simpler/graduated approach because obviously it would make sense that some Woaven have better direction of their other half than others in just a relative increase in power of levels.

Do you have any thoughts about how this might be implemented?

Amnoriath
2014-10-08, 09:31 AM
Do you have any thoughts about how this might be implemented?

Have you thought about giving them both sort of broken turns but then get gradual abilities over the levels to increase its actions temporarily with a short rest recharge? For example at level 1 you have the humanoid and the animal both can take an action or a move or one can do one of each while the other sits out. If one would choose to sit out they can use a bonus action to help their other half or convert it to another reaction. Alternatively they can choose to use this ability to gain another move action if both have already moved or used an action. If one of them haven't yet used any kind of action they may use this ability to gain another action. Over the levels they gain more uses of this ability. Then at maybe level 7-9 they can choose to use it twice per turn waving some of the relevant restrictions.

As for how they share abilities I really think that they should have two different physical bases and hit die for the start. Then they would share any feats and can choose to give any ability improvements to either party. It simply makes buffing and healing easier to figure out. However, how well this will actually fit in with 5e I don't know but you could borrow an E6 sort of development in which the humanoid half invests experience points and wealth for the ritual in the animal half to gain the things below. Now, I know this sounds like dual minds again but I think this could be a sort of customizable flavor component in which the player can choose how they view themselves as a character. For instance a lone, brow-beaten Woaven who hasn't been able to count on anyone else but themselves would heavily invest in the animal half to make it stronger, more capable, and better synchronized with them. On the other hand a more social and self driven one would keep more to the humanoid half, viewing the other as merely an extension and not a defining feature of himself. These experience points and wealth would pay for more attribute increases, familiar like senses, enhancing the abilities of the animal itself, share spells, transferred healing, extra bonus action, certain shared abilities..etc. Many of these would have multiple ones because either they can enhance more or the character class used obviously gains more and further ones would have an exponential cost. This way they can have a full-fledged other half but they do it at a cost leveling and personal gain which also makes the DM's decision easier on how to handle the character within a character.

infinitetech
2014-10-08, 03:25 PM
perhaps each class could have an associated animal side base creature, a creature who is the paradigm of the opposite class, such that a wizard might have a bear, a warrior might get a third eye raven, or a rouge might get an eagle of the sun of something like that,(they get base stat rolls when made, the creatures act like templates on them)
and then whatever you get with one the other gets the opposite,
if one rolls high in hp the other rolls low (you choose which one gets a bonus and which gets a minus equal to the others roll[this makes things a bit harder and thus less LA, but its a good balancer])
or if one boosts a stat the other gets an opposite one and they get a -1 on rolls of what the other chose of that kind: str,con,dex vs cha,int,wis ex: the human raises int by 1, the animal side gets to raise one stat (chooses str),(so+1str +1int), as a consequence the human now gets -1 on each str check and the animal gets -1 on int checks, though their base stats are better they forget how to use the other body as well on the simple tasks and thus are penalized like when you try to use the other hand for something,
if one gets a spell/spell like ability the other gets an attack ability, feat for feat, bonus for bonus, they are opposites,
for each modifier that a side has to a stat or skill the less powerful side gets a -x on rolls equal to the difference, by expending the better haves turn to concentrate they can give a 1/2 bonus to the weak side instead of the negative, if equal either side can give the 1/2 bonus
also, if a side gets a trait such as low light vision or something they get the appropriate weakness like light sensitivity(negatives while in bright light) or something, and the other would get the reverse, like eagle eye(double vision distance) and darkened vision(aka reverse low light vision):: dig speed/(agoraphobia/dense build[sink easy and fall hard, slower walk and lower jump, but hard to knock over or move, dam resistant]) and flight speed/(claustrophobia/light build[float easy, fall lighter, quicker walk and higher jump, easy to knock down/move, quicker reflex)...ect


just a few ideas here

hope you like them