Looking for examples of how a 90 damage At-Will works...

[wolfstone]

Okay, I've studied a few character builds I found on the D&D forums, but I still can't understand how an At-Will could possibly do 90 damage...

I've gone over it again and again, but the most damage I can get is 2[W] + 50 damage

(+10 Mod damage,
+6 Weapon enhancement,
+3 Weapon Focus,
+5 Shard of *** (elemental damage weapons),
+6 Epic Iron Armbands of Power,
+5 Lasting Frost damage (if a Cold damage weapon),
+10 Belt of Titan Strength,
+5 Headsman's Chop if target is prone, or +Con Mod damage (max +10) if you use Crippling Crush (as there is no weapon that is both a hammer/mace as well as an axe/heavy blade to combine Headsman's Chop with Crippling Crush).


So what is it that I'm missing? Can someone show me a combo that makes an At-Will do 90 or more damage?

Thanks for your patience, as well. :)

[Kimera757]

Okay, I've studied a few character builds I found on the D&D forums, but I still can't understand how an At-Will could possibly do 90 damage...

I've gone over it again and again, but the most damage I can get is 2[W] + 50 damage

(+10 Mod damage,
+6 Weapon enhancement,
+3 Weapon Focus,
+5 Shard of *** (elemental damage weapons),
+6 Epic Iron Armbands of Power,
+5 Lasting Frost damage (if a Cold damage weapon),
+10 Belt of Titan Strength,
+5 Headsman's Chop if target is prone, or +Con Mod damage (max +10) if you use Crippling Crush (as there is no weapon that is both a hammer/mace as well as an axe/heavy blade to combine Headsman's Chop with Crippling Crush).

The Belt of Titan Strength damage bonus is a daily ability.

Try playing a slayer; add your Dex bonus and then some to damage.

[Akodo Makama]

Okay, I've studied a few character builds I found on the D&D forums, but I still can't understand how an At-Will could possibly do 90 damage...

Step by step instructions (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2642031), damage analysis (118+ every round, 470+ once per encounter, 960+ once per day) in following post.

Key features: Lasting Frost + Wintertouched (aka Frostcheese), Twin Strike

[Kurald Galain]

Yes. And as I noted in the other thread, you can achieve a similar effect with Riposte Strike, Hellish Rebuke, Chain Breathing, Off-hand Strike, or Kulkor.

To hit 90 damage, you don't attack once for 1d10+85 damage, but you attack twice for 1d10+40. Much easier that way.

[wolfstone]

Step by step instructions (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2642031), damage analysis (118+ every round, 470+ once per encounter, 960+ once per day) in following post.

Key features: Lasting Frost + Wintertouched (aka Frostcheese), Twin Strike

I assume you meant this:

"Twin Strike: 2 attacks, +39 vs. AC with CA (+41 vs. AC with CA if no other allies are adjacent)
Hit: 2d10+36 cold damage
Critical: 6d6+78 cold damage
Hunter's Quarry: +3d6 cold damage
Rending Tempest: +1d10 cold damage

Slashing Storm: 7 damage



DPR: (2)*(0.80)*(47) + (2)*(0.10)*(99) + (0.90)*(0.80)*(5.5) + (0.90)*(0.10)*(10) + ([0.80]2 + 2*[0.10]*[0.80])*(10.5) + (1-[1-0.10]2)*(18) + (1-[1-0.90]2)*(7) = 118.61 DPR"

My only issue is the last part (between DPR: and = 118.61DPR*). What are all these numbers supposed to mean? As I may have said before in other threads, math is my absolute worst school subject (30% on my GED - Minimum to pass was 27%, so... Yeah. :P )

I don't understand those number, what they are or what they're supposed to mean, let alone how they come up to 118.61. I want to learn so that I can understand them and be able to figure other similar equations out on my own.

[NecroRebel]

I assume you meant this:

"Twin Strike: 2 attacks, +39 vs. AC with CA (+41 vs. AC with CA if no other allies are adjacent)
Hit: 2d10+36 cold damage
Critical: 6d6+78 cold damage
Hunter's Quarry: +3d6 cold damage
Rending Tempest: +1d10 cold damage

Slashing Storm: 7 damage



DPR: (2)*(0.80)*(47) + (2)*(0.10)*(99) + (0.90)*(0.80)*(5.5) + (0.90)*(0.10)*(10) + ([0.80]2 + 2*[0.10]*[0.80])*(10.5) + (1-[1-0.10]2)*(18) + (1-[1-0.90]2)*(7) = 118.61 DPR"

My only issue is the last part (between DPR: and = 118.61DPR*). What are all these numbers supposed to mean? As I may have said before in other threads, math is my absolute worst school subject (30% on my GED - Minimum to pass was 27%, so... Yeah. :P )

I don't understand those number, what they are or what they're supposed to mean, let alone how they come up to 118.61. I want to learn so that I can understand them and be able to figure other similar equations out on my own.

It's average damage per round corrected for accuracy against some (arbitrary but presumably relevant) AC value:

(2)*(0.80)*(47) - 2 strikes, each hitting 80% of the time, at 2d10+36 damage each, with 1d10 averaging 5.5 damage, 2d10 averaging 11 damage, and thus 2d10+36 averaging 11+36 or 47 damage.
(2)*(0.10)*(99) - 2 strikes, each getting a critical hit 10% of the time, and a crit dealing average 99 damage.
(0.90)*(0.80)*(5.5) - I assume this is Rending Tempest, but I don't know what it's effect is beyond the +1d10 (average 5.5) damage. I guess it's an "if you hit twice you get bonus damage" effect, so you calculate the chance of hitting once and hitting but not critting with the other attack (at least one crit is the next item), which at the assumed accuracy values are 90% and 80%, respectively.
(0.90)*(0.10)*(10) - Again, Rending Tempest, but assuming at least one crit, which has maximized (thus, 10) damage.
([0.80]2 + 2*[0.10]*[0.80])*(10.5) - Hunter's Quarry damage. Chance of hitting at least once and not critting with either attack times the average of 3d6 (3*3.5, or 10.5), as you apply Quarry if you hit either time but don't double apply it if you hit both times.
(1-[1-0.10]2)*(18) - Hunter's Quarry damage with at least one crit.
(1-[1-0.90]2)*(7) - Presumably Slashing Storm. Again, I don't know offhand what this does, but I'm assuming it's an "if you miss with both attacks, deal damage" thing, as those figures assume a 90% chance to hit with each attack and it's checking the chance to miss with both attacks.


The numbers all look legitimate to me. The only thing questionable to me is that 90% hit rate, but I don't remember if monster AC values at level 30 are in the 41-43 range. I think that they probably are now that I think of it.

[Kimera757]

Monster AC is usually 14 + level (so 44 for a 30th-level monster), -2 for artillery and brutes, +2 for soldiers. Obviously triggered powers, concealment and obscurement, cover, environmental effects, buffs, debuffs, etc can increase or decrease PC accuracy.

With a +39 to hit, the ranger is very accurate, hitting about 80% of the time, assuming allies are adjacent.

[wolfstone]

It's average damage per round corrected for accuracy against some (arbitrary but presumably relevant) AC value:

(2)*(0.80)*(47) - 2 strikes, each hitting 80% of the time, at 2d10+36 damage each, with 1d10 averaging 5.5 damage, 2d10 averaging 11 damage, and thus 2d10+36 averaging 11+36 or 47 damage.
(2)*(0.10)*(99) - 2 strikes, each getting a critical hit 10% of the time, and a crit dealing average 99 damage.
(0.90)*(0.80)*(5.5) - I assume this is Rending Tempest, but I don't know what it's effect is beyond the +1d10 (average 5.5) damage. I guess it's an "if you hit twice you get bonus damage" effect, so you calculate the chance of hitting once and hitting but not critting with the other attack (at least one crit is the next item), which at the assumed accuracy values are 90% and 80%, respectively.
(0.90)*(0.10)*(10) - Again, Rending Tempest, but assuming at least one crit, which has maximized (thus, 10) damage.
([0.80]2 + 2*[0.10]*[0.80])*(10.5) - Hunter's Quarry damage. Chance of hitting at least once and not critting with either attack times the average of 3d6 (3*3.5, or 10.5), as you apply Quarry if you hit either time but don't double apply it if you hit both times.
(1-[1-0.10]2)*(18) - Hunter's Quarry damage with at least one crit.
(1-[1-0.90]2)*(7) - Presumably Slashing Storm. Again, I don't know offhand what this does, but I'm assuming it's an "if you miss with both attacks, deal damage" thing, as those figures assume a 90% chance to hit with each attack and it's checking the chance to miss with both attacks.


The numbers all look legitimate to me. The only thing questionable to me is that 90% hit rate, but I don't remember if monster AC values at level 30 are in the 41-43 range. I think that they probably are now that I think of it.

He also quotes +36 damage at Lvl. 30, but I think he might be accidentally adding in the STR mod, which isn't included in Twin Strike's damage. You only do 1 or 2 [W] damage, so unless he has other damage additions, I think his math might be off by 9 unless he's counting the boost from Belt of Titan Strength.

Also, am I correct in assuming that Average Damage is halfway between the minimum and the maximum damage an attack can do? Say on a power that does 10 to 20 damage, the average damage is 15?

[Epinephrine]

Also, am I correct in assuming that Average Damage is halfway between the minimum and the maximum damage an attack can do? Say on a power that does 10 to 20 damage, the average damage is 15?

Generally that's correct. The vast majority of die rolls generate symmetrical distributions, so the average is the middle. If you have effects like "rolls of 1 and 2 count as a 3" it isn't the case, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

[Kimera757]

Also, am I correct in assuming that Average Damage is halfway between the minimum and the maximum damage an attack can do? Say on a power that does 10 to 20 damage, the average damage is 15?

I average by dice. The average of d4 is 2.5, d6 is 3.5, d8 is 4.5, d10 is 5.5, and d12 is 6.5. Brutal weapons mess up the averages, of course.

[wolfstone]

I average by dice. The average of d4 is 2.5, d6 is 3.5, d8 is 4.5, d10 is 5.5, and d12 is 6.5. Brutal weapons mess up the averages, of course.

Why always add an extra .5? Just curious as to your reasoning.

[georgie_leech]

Why always add an extra .5? Just curious as to your reasoning.

For the d4, 1+2+3+4=10, divide by 4 is 2.5. A d4 will never actually roll a 2.5, but it's the average result. In other words, if you rolled, say, 1000 d4, you'd get a result totalling somewhere around 2500 (1000*2.5). While getting, say, 1000 isn't impossible, it's drastically unlikely.

[GPuzzle]

The numbers all look legitimate to me. The only thing questionable to me is that 90% hit rate, but I don't remember if monster AC values at level 30 are in the 41-43 range. I think that they probably are now that I think of it.

It's 44.

Actually, the best example I can think of is Revenant Genasi Battlemind/Lyrandar-Wind Rider/Master of Minutes+Brilliant Recovery and Brutal Barrage with a Ring of Free Time, Firewind Blade and Cold Whetstone.

You make... 7 attacks a round. It's pretty amazing.

[Nightgaun7]

Similarly, combine something like the Barbarian's chargecheese and the Paladin's Radiant buffs to get high damage. I had a level 15 barbarian that was regularly putting out about 200 a round with an at-will and chargecheese+frostcheese.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Get a buddy to skald up, you can add another 4 with Song of Savagery.

[wolfstone]

Similarly, combine something like the Barbarian's chargecheese and the Paladin's Radiant buffs to get high damage. I had a level 15 barbarian that was regularly putting out about 200 a round with an at-will and chargecheese+frostcheese.

Chargecheese? Is there an example of the character built around?

If not, what does it consist of?

[Tegu8788]

A couple feats and items that boost charge damage. The easiest way to make any character do more damage, including the wizard, is with charge cheese.

[wolfstone]

A couple feats and items that boost charge damage. The easiest way to make any character do more damage, including the wizard, is with charge cheese.

Are there any existing character builds out there that feature this strategy?

[Tegu8788]

Google chargecheese, and you'll find plenty.

[masteraleph]

Or more generally, for some basic optimization, see this:

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3714446

[wolfstone]

Similarly, combine something like the Barbarian's chargecheese and the Paladin's Radiant buffs to get high damage. I had a level 15 barbarian that was regularly putting out about 200 a round with an at-will and chargecheese+frostcheese.

Do you have the build listed anywhere? If not, is it just a Barbarian with MC (divine class), using Charging and Radiant vulnerabilities or damage-inflicting effects?

[Nightgaun7]

Do you have the build listed anywhere? If not, is it just a Barbarian with MC (divine class), using Charging and Radiant vulnerabilities or damage-inflicting effects?

I don't think I have that particular one any more, but iirc it was Warforged Barbarian MC'd into Fighter, Warforged Juggernaut PP. He was using frost stacking, not radiant, but it's the same basic principle.

[wolfstone]

I don't think I have that particular one any more, but iirc it was Warforged Barbarian MC'd into Fighter, Warforged Juggernaut PP. He was using frost stacking, not radiant, but it's the same basic principle.

Why the fighter MC?

[masteraleph]

Why the fighter MC?

Probably any of several possible reasons:

1) Battle Awareness is one of the best multiclass feats out there- skill training and an Immediate Interrupt.
2) Surprising Charge- requires 17 dex; adds 1[W] to charges.
3) Also possible (though difficult to pull off, statwise, with the two above): Unstoppable Charge, in Epic, so your turn doesn't end. Relatively unlikely, though, because of Warforged Juggernaut's action point feature.

There are other tricks a fighter gets, too, that could help this along. The biggest "chargecheese" trick, beyond the various stacking 1dwhatevers, comes in Epic- take Reincarnate Champion as an Epic Destiny, have a Gnoll past life, take Fierce Charge and Brutal Charge, and boom, you now have an Encounter power as a charge once per encounter. Boom, you get all the charge bonuses on a triple attack power...until 27, when you take the Barbarian's Hurricane of Blades and get them on a 4x attack power.

[wolfstone]

Well, I made a damage-focused Genasi barbarian to try to get as much damage per attack I could. I ended up with a regular +39 damage with the following:

+10 STR mod, +6 Lightning Fullblade, +6 Epic Iron Armbands of Power, +5 Epic Eberron Shard of Lightning, +4 Lightning Soul feat, +4 Shocking Flame feat, +4 Kensei Focus - Kensei PP feature.

Other non-standard bonuses:

+3 Deadly Rage feat, +9 Power Attack feat, +3d8 Promise of Storm racial power, +2d6 Samurai theme feature, +3[W] damage - Fullblade crit., +CHA mod Heart Strike Utility power (At-Will powers only).

Charge only bonuses: Epic Horned Helm +3d6, +2 Powerful Charge feat.

With all of this active (set up round probably required) I could do +51 + 3d8 on a normal Power Attack while Raging, or +53 + 3d8 + 3d6 on a charge (Not counting the Gnoll power for Reincarnate Champion or the Longtooth Shifting racial power for an extra +2 damage), and an extra +8 CHA mod on At-Will powers.

On a crit (unlikely for me, but still...) I can also add an extra + 2d6 + 3[W] extra damage on a crit.

The good part is that I'm still getting a +38 to attack (or +36 on a Power Attack), not counting CA and other bonuses from other players.

Does this count as 'Striker-level' damage?

[GPuzzle]

You still need to calculate your to-hit and see if you deal as much damage as you are saying.

[wolfstone]

You still need to calculate your to-hit and see if you deal as much damage as you are saying.

All the damage that don't require actual damage rolls are calculated for the set damage they do (not counting resistances). The ones that require die rolls are listed as the number of each type of die rolled as stated above. The weapon is a d12 +6 Fullblade that can do Lightning damage to work with lightning damage bonuses of +4, +5, and 3d8,

This is for a Level 30 character, by the way. I'm also aware of the +10 of Belt of Titan Strength, but as that is only a daily effect for a single turn, I didn't bother to include it. The character is a Genasi Rageblood Barbarian with Fighter MC for the Kensei PP's +1 attack and +4 damage.

[GPuzzle]

Close, but still not enough.

Genasi Barbarian MC Cleric/Morninglord/Radiant One.

+6 Firewind Blade, Iron Armbands of Power, Horned Helm. Fire Whetsone (Paragon). Radiant Advantage. Shard of Fire. Shocking Flame. Fiery Blood. Gauntlets of Destruction. Charge with Howling Strike.

2d12b1+6d6b1+6+1+6+6+10+10+4+10+10+5+9, or 13+21+18+40+10+9 or 34+18+50+9 or 111 damage.

9+3+3+6+1+2+2+15=30+11=41.

44-41-1=2

0,9*111=99,9

100 DPR, with some basic optimization.

[wolfstone]

Close, but still not enough.

Genasi Barbarian MC Cleric/Morninglord/Radiant One.

+6 Firewind Blade, Iron Armbands of Power, Horned Helm. Fire Whetsone (Paragon). Radiant Advantage. Shard of Fire. Shocking Flame. Fiery Blood. Gauntlets of Destruction. Charge with Howling Strike.

2d12b1+6d6b1+6+1+6+6+10+10+4+10+10+5+9, or 13+21+18+40+10+9 or 34+18+50+9 or 111 damage.

9+3+3+6+1+2+2+15=30+11=41.

44-41-1=2

0,9*111=99,9

100 DPR, with some basic optimization.

I already had the Gauntlets, just didn't mention them. While the Fire/Radiant does less damage, it was more focused on Charging as well. I made the changes you recommended, though. Thanks for those.

[GPuzzle]

Fire/Radiant does more damage. Vulnerability Fire 10 Vulnerability Radiant 10 double-stacking is amazing. 40 damage for free.

[wolfstone]

Fire/Radiant does more damage. Vulnerability Fire 10 Vulnerability Radiant 10 double-stacking is amazing. 40 damage for free.

Wait... Double-stacking? How does that happen?

[masteraleph]

Wait... Double-stacking? How does that happen?

The confluence of Radiant One and Firewind Blade. Radiant One doesn't require an attack, just that you "deal damage" and have Combat Advantage. FWB adds a separate damage instance. So you hit and get the damage including the Radiant One damage (which would make it fire automatically, even without Shocking Flame), and then the Firewind Blade damage gets the RO bonus, which in turn triggers the vulnerabilities again.

Worth noting that the hypothetical level 30 character here would also have Hurricane of Blades and so would have a 4x attack every encounter (pinging FWB every attack). And it's not even at the most ridiculous level it could be- Pelor's Sun Blessing would add a few damage, for example. And even then, it's not quite at the top of its game.

The flip side to all of this is building a useful character. The tradeoff of using Morninglord on a striker is that they don't get much of a benefit until level 16, and unless they have a way of dealing fire and radiant damage together, they can't take advantage of FWB until Epic- and, for that matter, it's hard (or even impossible) to get Radiant in a way that doesn't kill other damage types and is still usable with Morninglord until Epic. That's basically half a tier when the PP could have been doing something useful and wasn't, and another half that's less than ideal, all so you can do a lot in Epic tier.

[wolfstone]

The confluence of Radiant One and Firewind Blade. Radiant One doesn't require an attack, just that you "deal damage" and have Combat Advantage. FWB adds a separate damage instance. So you hit and get the damage including the Radiant One damage (which would make it fire automatically, even without Shocking Flame), and then the Firewind Blade damage gets the RO bonus, which in turn triggers the vulnerabilities again.

Worth noting that the hypothetical level 30 character here would also have Hurricane of Blades and so would have a 4x attack every encounter (pinging FWB every attack). And it's not even at the most ridiculous level it could be- Pelor's Sun Blessing would add a few damage, for example. And even then, it's not quite at the top of its game.

The flip side to all of this is building a useful character. The tradeoff of using Morninglord on a striker is that they don't get much of a benefit until level 16, and unless they have a way of dealing fire and radiant damage together, they can't take advantage of FWB until Epic- and, for that matter, it's hard (or even impossible) to get Radiant in a way that doesn't kill other damage types and is still usable with Morninglord until Epic. That's basically half a tier when the PP could have been doing something useful and wasn't, and another half that's less than ideal, all so you can do a lot in Epic tier.

So for Level 15 and lower, the lightning approach would be reliable?

[GPuzzle]

So for Level 15 and lower, the lightning approach would be reliable?

Yes but less effective than good old permafrost.

[wolfstone]

Yes but less effective than good old permafrost.

True, but Lasting Frost is a paragon feat, so I couldn't add vulnerability until Paragon. IS that it for Lightning damage maximizing as a Genasi, though, or is there something else that I missed?

[Nightgaun7]

True, but Lasting Frost is a paragon feat, so I couldn't add vulnerability until Paragon. IS that it for Lightning damage maximizing as a Genasi, though, or is there something else that I missed?

Frostcheese can also get you semi-permanent combat advantage, dunno if lightning optimization has similar. That's worth a bit. I'd rather hit more than get an extra +5.

[georgie_leech]

Frostcheese can also get you semi-permanent combat advantage, dunno if lightning optimization has similar. That's worth a bit. I'd rather hit more than get an extra +5.

Depends on class and party composition though. Some groups can get pretty much constant CA going by virtue of status effects or flanking or, depending on leaders, straight up CA for everyone. Since CA doesn't stack, in that case I'd go for whichever one got me bigger numbers.

For Theory Crafting though, I love me some Frostcheese.

[Nightgaun7]

Depends on class and party composition though. Some groups can get pretty much constant CA going by virtue of status effects or flanking or, depending on leaders, straight up CA for everyone. Since CA doesn't stack, in that case I'd go for whichever one got me bigger numbers.

For Theory Crafting though, I love me some Frostcheese.

ime even in a party of 8 with 3 leaders and plenty of status effects to go around, the frostcheese was still up and running far more consistently than anything else. When a couple of the other PCs died and then brought in new characters who also used it, things got ridiculous.

[wolfstone]

ime even in a party of 8 with 3 leaders and plenty of status effects to go around, the frostcheese was still up and running far more consistently than anything else. When a couple of the other PCs died and then brought in new characters who also used it, things got ridiculous.

True, but with Promise of Storm and a Lightning Weapon, I can do more damage per hit, which is what I'm going for. I'm now exploring a Genasi Lightning Two-sowrd Ranger build. Rangers seem to do the most damage per turn overall, so I wonder what a Lightning version would do. I'll avoid Radiant/Fire as the PP I'll go with will be Lyrandar Wind-Rider for extra damage and most likely Destined Scion for max accuracy as there isn't a lightning-geared ED.

[wolfstone]

The Belt of Titan Strength damage bonus is a daily ability.

Try playing a slayer; add your Dex bonus and then some to damage.

I looked up the Slayer class and learned that it only uses basic melee attacks. There's Utility powers and some At-Will stances, but all you do is swing a weapon again and again, ad nausium. Also, the most of a bonus the DEX mod can do is +15 maximum, so it doesn't sound like it would hold up compared to other non-Essencials classes. The Knight class sufferes the same way, but trades extra damage for a defender aura, from what I can tell. This still makes them rather weak on damage in Epic. A Weaponmaster has access to stronger powers that can do more damage.

[MeeposFire]

I looked up the Slayer class and learned that it only uses basic melee attacks. There's Utility powers and some At-Will stances, but all you do is swing a weapon again and again, ad nausium. Also, the most of a bonus the DEX mod can do is +15 maximum, so it doesn't sound like it would hold up compared to other non-Essencials classes. The Knight class sufferes the same way, but trades extra damage for a defender aura, from what I can tell. This still makes them rather weak on damage in Epic. A Weaponmaster has access to stronger powers that can do more damage.

Actually the slayer is one of the most damaging single target striker chassis's in the game. Its large bonus to damage applies to all his weapon attacks including multiple attack powers which make him really dangerous. A standard slayer taking the training feat for a fighter encounter power trade and reserve maneuver for another power can out damage most strikers in the game. Consider that using a gouge (a spear type weapon) you can use a charge+power strike (with all the normal optimization for it which includes knocking the target prone), use trip up for an extra attack, and then use a triple attack encounter power (fighter level 3 power). That is 5 attacks in a round with each attack getting the striker bonus damage. That is a nasty bit of damage for a level 11 character and it can go up from there.

A weapon master will hit hard and he can use the same powers but the slayer will hit harder. This makes sense as they have different jobs.

[georgie_leech]

Actually the slayer is one of the most damaging single target striker chassis's in the game. Its large bonus to damage applies to all his weapon attacks including multiple attack powers which make him really dangerous. A standard slayer taking the training feat for a fighter encounter power trade and reserve maneuver for another power can out damage most strikers in the game. Consider that using a gouge (a spear type weapon) you can use a charge+power strike (with all the normal optimization for it which includes knocking the target prone), use trip up for an extra attack, and then use a triple attack encounter power (fighter level 3 power). That is 5 attacks in a round with each attack getting the striker bonus damage. That is a nasty bit of damage for a level 11 character and it can go up from there.

A weapon master will hit hard and he can use the same powers but the slayer will hit harder. This makes sense as they have different jobs.

In other words, yeah, the Slayer pretty much only knows Hit Thing With Sword out of the box, but you don't need to stay in the box and he's really good at Hit Thing With Sword. Pretty bland, mind you, but effective nonetheless.

[wolfstone]

A standard slayer taking the training feat for a fighter encounter power trade.

Which feat(s) are you talking about?

[Nightgaun7]

Which feat(s) are you talking about?

Adept Training or whichever one it is that lets you take fighter encounter powers, and then you take any of the various multi-hit fighter powers.

[Dimers]

Which feat(s) are you talking about?

Martial Cross-Training, requiring Improved Power Strike, lets you swap one use of power strike for an encounter power from your class.

[MeeposFire]

Martial Cross-Training, requiring Improved Power Strike, lets you swap one use of power strike for an encounter power from your class.

Also reserved maneuver which you use to trade out your encounter power from your paragon path assuming its power is bad. Something like shock trooper you wouldn't bother but if you went kensai for instance getting something like trip up works really well.

My favorite slayer character was one that used the spiked chain master feat to emulate Anubis from Ronin Warriors (quiet you yes I use the dub name). It had a triple attack since a spiked chain counted as a light blade with that feat and I could also hit reflex on a basic attack while applying things like slides. Pretty good fun to be honest and the damage was great. It also was very thematic so I felt pretty good about it.

[Dimers]

I can imagine a few DMs not allowing use of Reserve Maneuver to do that because of the Rules Compendium ruling about not "replacing" PP or ED powers. The language of Reserve Maneuver certainly doesn't say "replace", but then again, neither do the standard ways to accomplish powerswapping, Adept Power / Novice Power / Acolyte Power.

Personally I lean in favor of being able to make the trade, since Reserve Maneuver has a less permanent feel to it. (And especially for Essentials characters, who often could use the help if they're in a party with a 4.0 character.) But I am not all DMs.

[wolfstone]

I can imagine a few DMs not allowing use of Reserve Maneuver to do that because of the Rules Compendium ruling about not "replacing" PP or ED powers. The language of Reserve Maneuver certainly doesn't say "replace", but then again, neither do the standard ways to accomplish powerswapping, Adept Power / Novice Power / Acolyte Power.

Personally I lean in favor of being able to make the trade, since Reserve Maneuver has a less permanent feel to it. (And especially for Essentials characters, who often could use the help if they're in a party with a 4.0 character.) But I am not all DMs.

I went with Reserve maneuver and the three attack power Martial feats to allow for the most variety of powers. I also went with Kensei for the PP for the atk and damage bonuses. I now have a static +42 damage and +40 atk bonuses. I'm using a flaming weapon with a whetstone of combustion for added damage. FWB can only add temporary damage, so I went with a flaming weapon instead for longer-lasting fire damage.

One question on vulnerabilities vs. resistance/immunity. Does the inflicted elemental vulnerability replace a resistance/immunity, or do they cancel each other out on the resistance. What, if any, affect does inflicted vulnerability have against immunities?

[Tegu8788]

They stack. So if you have resist 5 fire and you inflict vulnerabile 10 fire, the end result is vulnerable 5 fire.

When it's a case of having resist 5 fire and resist 10 fire, you take the best, resisting 10 not 15 fire. Vulnerable 5 fire and vulnerable 10 fire, you just take the worst, vulnerable to 10 not 15 fire. More of the exact same kind replaces

Where it gets fun is where you have resist all 3, vulnerable 10 fire ice, and resist 5 fire.

[wolfstone]

They stack. So if you have resist 5 fire and you inflict vulnerabile 10 fire, the end result is vulnerable 5 fire.

When it's a case of having resist 5 fire and resist 10 fire, you take the best, resisting 10 not 15 fire. Vulnerable 5 fire and vulnerable 10 fire, you just take the worst, vulnerable to 10 not 15 fire. More of the exact same kind replaces

Where it gets fun is where you have resist all 3, vulnerable 10 fire ice, and resist 5 fire.

I meant monsters with resistance/immunity. Here's an example of what I mean:

A monster has Resist 5 Fire, and I inflict upon them Vulnerable 10 Fire (like with the Sarafi Feywarden trheme power). What happens? Do they exchange Resist 5 Fire for Vulnerable 5 Fire (if vulnerable changes the math of how fire affects them; Vul. 10 Fire takes away their Resist 5, then adds vulnerable 5, or does it replace the resistance with the vulnerability, so that they go from resist 5 to vulnerable 10?

What about immunity? Can a monster with immunity to fire damage be given vulnerable 10 fire instead?

[NecroRebel]

A monster with resist 5 fire which is given vulnerability 10 fire would have resist 5 fire and vulnerability 10 fire. The fact that they have resistance doesn't change the vulnerability number, nor is the reverse true. The creature would take 5 extra fire damage from fire attacks, since base-5+10=base+5. Basically, you subtract the lower value from the higher and treat a creature as if it had that much resistance/vulnerability, whichever is appropriate. A theoretical effect that didn't work on creatures resistant to a damage type would, by RAW, still not work on a creature given vulnerability to that damage type that overrode their resistance (a fire elemental given enough fire vulnerability for it to take bonus fire damage would still not be instakilled by lava, for instance).

A creature with immunity to a damage type isn't immune to being given vulnerability to that damage type, but they just simply don't take that form of damage, so the vulnerability practically has no effect; base+10x0=0, just as basex0=0.

Half damage effects, such as Insubstantial, work after all resistances and vulnerabilities have been calculated.

For relevant text, see Rules Compendium pages 224-226.

[bloodshed343]

For an example of hitting 90 damage with a single attack, take a swordmage|warlock elemental/sorcerer-king pact malec-keth janissary + radiant one with mindbite scorn, whetstone of combustion, and lasting frost with a firewind blade, offhand rod of ulban, gloves of ice, bracers of mighty striking, and siberys shard of merciless cold. You do 2d8 + 8 + 4d8 + 8 + 1d4 + 8 + 15 + 10 + 5 + 6 + 4 + 4 + 7 + 15 + 8 + 5 (average 132.5) psychic, cold, fire, and radiant damage with a 75% chance to hit for a dpr of 99.375