Turn/Rebuke pools, how many of them can fuel divine feats?

[.Zero]

I'm wondering how many turning pools exist that can be used to activate divine feats.

By myself i know:
- Turn Undead
- Rebuke Undead
- Destroy Undead (expedition to castle ravenloft, compleate champion?)
- Rebuke Dragons (draconomicon?)
- Channel Incarnum (MoI, azurin cleric acf)

But i also know that a single character cannot have all this five pools at once.

What really interests me thought is pools interaction with extra turning and nightsticks.

The well known trick is to get multiple turning pools to which apply extra turning, 'cause that way you'll get the feat's benefit applied to every pool.

But a take a character that has Destroy Undead (Cleric 1), Turn Undead (Sacred Exorcist 1) and Rebuke Undead (Dread Necromancer 1).
He has three separate pools that feed divine feats. I often saw characters like this one take Extra turning once and gian +12 turn attempts. What i don't understand is why they got so many turn uses, because extra turning says that its benefits apply again only if you can turn/rebuke a *different kind of creature*. So if i can destroy/turn/rebuke *undead* i can't take more than 4 extra attempts, that I'm supposed to apply only to the turn or rebuke pool i have.

I know exist turn plants, elementals etc, but what's the point of taking those pools and extra turning if you can't feed divine feats with 'em?

If a character would have instead rebuke dragons and turn undead, it will have two pools to which feed DMM, and each pool will grant him 3+Cha+4 (extra turning).

About nightsticks... are we supposed to think that they'll function very similarly to extra turning? What happens if i have turn and rebuke undead pools? I'm inclined to think that a single nightstick grants +4 to each pools.

What do you think?

[OldTrees1]

Only Turn/Rebuke Undead, and pools that specifically mention being able to power Divine feats can power Divine feats. There are only 5 printed by WotC in rulebooks. (I did not search dragon magazine)

Turn Undead
Rebuke Undead
Destroy Undead ("If a feat requires the expenditure of one of more uses of turn undead, it instead consumes uses of this ability")
Rebuke Dragons ("An attempt to rebuke dragons counts as an attempt to turn or rebuke undead for the purposes of qualifying for or activating divine feats")
Channel Incarnum ("and can spend daily uses of this featability to power divine feats as if it were uses of turn or rebuke undead")


A literal reading would be:
Increase one of your Turn/Rebuke pools. (Extra Turning is Turn/Rebuke specific. Destroy Undead and Channel Incarnum would need specific text to allow them to benefit)
If you can Turn/Rebuke more than one type of creature,
then each of your Turn/Rebuke pools is increased instead.


If you have Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead, you get +4 uses to one or the other.
[+4 Divine feat fuel]

If you have Turn Undead and Turn Fire Elementals, you get +4 uses to each(both) of your Turn/Rebuke pools.
[+4 Divine feat fuel since one of the pools can't be used]

If you have Turn Undead and Rebuke Dragons, you get +4 uses to each(both) of your Turn/Rebuke pools.
[+8 Divine feat fuel]

If you have Turn Undead, Turn Fire Elementals, and Rebuke Undead, you get +4 uses to each(all three). of your Turn/Rebuke pools.
[+8 Divine feat fuel since one of the pools can't be used]

If you have Turn Undead, Rebuke Undead, and Rebuke Dragons, you get +4 uses to each(all three). of your Turn/Rebuke pools.
[+12 Divine feat fuel]

[Extra Anchovies]

Is there a way to get all three on one character without gimping the rest of the build?

[OldTrees1]

Is there a way to get all three on one character without gimping the rest of the build?

Dread Necromancer 1 / Cleric(Rebuke Dragons) 7 / Sacred Exorcist 1 has only 1 sacrificed level but gets +12 fuel per feat.
Cleric 7 / Sacred Exorcist 1 with a turning domain(say Fire) gets +8 fuel per feat but loses a domain.

[Extra Anchovies]

Dread Necromancer 1 / Cleric(Rebuke Dragons) 7 / Sacred Exorcist 1 has only 1 sacrificed level but gets +12 fuel per feat.
Cleric 7 / Sacred Exorcist 1 with a turning domain(say Fire) gets +8 fuel per feat but loses a domain.

Oooh, I like that. Dread Necromancer gets me Charnel Touch, so Tomb-Tainted Soul means unlimited healing for me. And +12 fuel per feat means that taking Extra Turning once (from, say, the Undeath domain; thematically fitting) lets me have four extended, DMM persisted buffs up at a time assuming Cha of 10. Nice.

[OldTrees1]

Oooh, I like that. Dread Necromancer gets me Charnel Touch, so Tomb-Tainted Soul means unlimited healing for me. And +12 fuel per feat means that taking Extra Turning once (from, say, the Undeath domain; thematically fitting) lets me have four extended, DMM persisted buffs up at a time assuming Cha of 10. Nice.

I keep forgetting to check alignment prerequisites. This build would require you to start non-good and then convert to any-good.

Edit: That would be (3+Cha+4)*3 = 6 Extended Persisted buffs(21/7=>3) for Cha 10

[Rebel7284]

Cleric/Death Delver/Sacred Exorcist works without any alignment issues.

[.Zero]

If you have Turn Undead, Rebuke Undead, and Rebuke Dragons, you get +4 uses to each(all three). of your Turn/Rebuke pools. [+12 Divine feat fuel]

That's the part i don't understand. if a character takes extra turning and has Turn Undead and Rebuke Dragons then he will gain +4 to each. But why you say that if we add Rebuke Undead that character will gain another +4? Extra Turning says that you'll gain additional uses of your turning attemps only if you can turn different types of creatures, so why would its benefits apply even to Rebuke Undead too?

[squiggit]

Extra Turning says that you'll gain additional uses of your turning attemps only if you can turn different types of creatures, so why would its benefits apply even to Rebuke Undead too?

Here's another odd quirk. The "Special" section of the feat's description says that each additional time you take it you can use "each of your turning or rebuking abilities four additional times per day".

So I guess even with that assertion, the second time you take the feat it'll apply to both turning and rebuking.

[OldTrees1]

That's the part i don't understand. if a character takes extra turning and has Turn Undead and Rebuke Dragons then he will gain +4 to each. But why you say that if we add Rebuke Undead that character will gain another +4? Extra Turning says that you'll gain additional uses of your turning attemps only if you can turn different types of creatures, so why would its benefits apply even to Rebuke Undead too?


The sentence Extra Turning uses is:
If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature each of your turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day.

Lets convert that into P->Q notation.
P: You have the ability to turn/rebuke more than 1 kind of creature.
Q: Each of your turn/rebuke pools increases by 4.
Note than only P cares about the creature type.

Once prerequisite P is satisfied (by Turn Undead and Rebuke Dragons), then benefit Q(all Turn/Rebuke pools increase) is rewarded.

However when P is not satisfied (Say you only have Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead), then you do not get Q's benefit.

[jiriku]

The sentence Extra Turning uses is:
If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature each of your turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day.

Lets convert that into P->Q notation.
P: You have the ability to turn/rebuke more than 1 kind of creature.
Q: Each of your turn/rebuke pools increases by 4.
Note than only P cares about the creature type.

Once prerequisite P is satisfied (by Turn Undead and Rebuke Dragons), then benefit Q(all Turn/Rebuke pools increase) is rewarded.

However when P is not satisfied (Say you only have Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead), then you do not get Q's benefit.

Literally true, but since the authors weren't trained in formal logic it should more likely be interpreted "If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature, each of those turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day." On the other hand, when the PH was published there wasn't a way to get both turn and rebuke undead on the same character, so they wouldn't have felt the need to address that case. It's reasonable to houserule the text to read something like "If you have more than one Turn or Rebuke ability, each of your turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day."

[OldTrees1]

Literally true, but since the authors weren't trained in formal logic it should more likely be interpreted

Agreed. Honestly, I am not sure if the authors intended one character to be able to Turn and Rebuke the same creature type.

[jiriku]

I'd expect not. It's the sort of thing that would be called shenanigans or munchkinry at many tables. We just get anesthetized to it after seeing so many TO builds around here -- or at least I do. :smallbiggrin: