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View Full Version : Erfworld thread IV: In memory of King Saline



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Gez
2014-10-27, 10:26 AM
If I were to guess, maybe the price of a field-promotion is a good deal higher than just popping an elite unit would be.

There's also probably plenty of other reasons why having elite units is useful outside of direct engagement (strategic advantages, rather than tactical advantages). Such as increased move points and/or ability to ride mounts, greater sight making them better scouts, commanders with better leadership having a greater maximum stack size, bonuses to resource production when stationed in city, reduced upkeep costs, etc. Maybe better units have greater experience potential than basic units so after a hundredturns your stabber promoted to knight gained a few levels just by doing exercises and maneuvering without actual combat engagement, whereas the stabbers that remained grunts gained less levels or didn't even progress. Plenty of things like this can be found in actual games. Furthermore, you can imagine that promoting units in a garrison or special building is cheaper than promoting them in the battlefield; and it's also possible that there are mechanisms that prevent hoarding (such as corruption and theft making you lose more and more schmuckers if you're doing nothing with them) so there's incentive to keep a lean budget and upgrade when possible instead of being stingy and upgrading everything at once.

Rogar Demonblud
2014-10-27, 10:46 AM
And once again we see that you need to think thrice before betting against Parson Gotti.

TheStranger
2014-10-27, 11:25 AM
I wish the beat panel had shown Parson using his bracer to calculate odds instead of just standing there. That would change my perception of this update from "going all-in with unknown odds" to "smartly taking advantage of an opportunity." It's foolish to risk Stanley in a close fight, and it's not clear whether Parson expects to win easily or not.

Calemyr
2014-10-27, 11:49 AM
I wish the beat panel had shown Parson using his bracer to calculate odds instead of just standing there. That would change my perception of this update from "going all-in with unknown odds" to "smartly taking advantage of an opportunity." It's foolish to risk Stanley in a close fight, and it's not clear whether Parson expects to win easily or not.

You don't want him blindly following the odds, either. Not that the calculator would help much here. He's not expecting this to be a question of "can I croak her", it's a question of "should I croak her". Charlie trying to buy her survival alone suggests the odds are on Parson's side, promoting the survivors just cements that. If Charlie pulls a stunt that makes this inadvisable, it's going to be from outside the current circumstances, and thus not included in the calculated odds of success beyond a built-in cynicism factor.

Of course, Charlie's offer could easily be a misdirection as well. That's the problem when an iconoclast matches wits with a con man.

HalfTangible
2014-10-27, 12:00 PM
Uh... what?
Wanda, not even five pages ago the shock of Jillian's potential death made the link between you and Maggie break like a twig. Make up your mind as to whether you want her to survive or not!

Yeah, I get that you can't trust Charlie, but you're not even gonna try and get Jillian captured? This is probably your best chance. And even if you could decrypt her, we have no way of guaranteeing that Stanley would get the corpse to you.

And don't tell me 'she could decrypt her', she could've done that from a fall to her death too!

Lizard Lord
2014-10-27, 12:23 PM
Uh... what?
Wanda, not even five pages ago the shock of Jillian's potential death made the link between you and Maggie break like a twig. Make up your mind as to whether you want her to survive or not!

Yeah, I get that you can't trust Charlie, but you're not even gonna try and get Jillian captured? This is probably your best chance. And even if you could decrypt her, we have no way of guaranteeing that Stanley would get the corpse to you.

And don't tell me 'she could decrypt her', she could've done that from a fall to her death too!

Why are you assuming that is why the link broke? I still believe it is from the damage that Ansom took.

Douglas
2014-10-27, 12:29 PM
If anything about Jillian is what broke the link, I'd guess it's what she said to Ansom. Given the timing, I'd guess the link breaking was caused by Ansom's impact with the ground, and Wanda's crying afterwards was about Jillian's dialogue, possibly some uncertainty about her status and whether she was right, and reduced ability to deal with it due to link-break shock.

Lizard Lord
2014-10-27, 12:39 PM
If anything about Jillian is what broke the link, I'd guess it's what she said to Ansom. Given the timing, I'd guess the link breaking was caused by Ansom's impact with the ground, and Wanda's crying afterwards was about Jillian's dialogue, possibly some uncertainty about her status and whether she was right, and reduced ability to deal with it due to link-break shock.

I also still say the crying is from the backlash of the link breaking, but perhaps that's just me.

HandofShadows
2014-10-27, 12:46 PM
And once again we see that you need to think thrice before betting against Parson Gotti.

Only THREE times? I would think a LOT more would be a good idea.

HalfTangible
2014-10-27, 12:56 PM
Why are you assuming that is why the link broke? I still believe it is from the damage that Ansom took.

Then why doesn't Wanda take damage every time a decrypted falls or is hurt? We know that Wanda can see through the eyes of her Decrypted already, and she watches them fall die all the time.

NEO|Phyte
2014-10-27, 12:59 PM
Then why doesn't Wanda take damage every time a decrypted falls or is hurt? We know that Wanda can see through the eyes of her Decrypted already, and she watches them fall die all the time.

Because there is a difference between however the vision trick with decrypted works and using a thinkamancer link to literally join your mind with them.

Jasdoif
2014-10-27, 01:00 PM
Wanda, not even five pages ago the shock of Jillian's potential death made the link between you and Maggie break like a twig. Make up your mind as to whether you want her to survive or not!Isn't that what she just did here?

HalfTangible
2014-10-27, 01:08 PM
Because there is a difference between however the vision trick with decrypted works and using a thinkamancer link to literally join your mind with them.

Why on erf would they link their minds together? What evidence is there of it? I thought Maggie was there because of distance, or because Ansom was a captured unit at the time! Otherwise there's no point at all to the link.

Winterwind
2014-10-27, 01:45 PM
Uh... what?Jillian dying has always been Wanda's dearest wish. It would allow her to Decrypt her, thus making this Mistress-Slave relationship of theirs complete. I was extremely confused and irritated myself a few pages back as to why Wanda reacted with sobbing all of a sudden, but people have quite rightly pointed out that that was probably just the backlash from the link breaking.


Why on erf would they link their minds together? What evidence is there of it? I thought Maggie was there because of distance, or because Ansom was a captured unit at the time! Otherwise there's no point at all to the link.Because Wanda cannot see through the eyes of any Decrypted, only Archons - because they have Thinkamancy. Hence Parson linked Wanda with Maggie, so they could get into Ansom's mind and see through his eyes. All of that, here (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/7).

HalfTangible
2014-10-27, 01:50 PM
Jillian dying has always been Wanda's dearest wish. It would allow her to Decrypt her, thus making this Mistress-Slave relationship of theirs complete. I was extremely confused and irritated myself a few pages back as to why Wanda reacted with sobbing all of a sudden, but people have quite rightly pointed out that that was probably just the backlash from the link breaking.

Because Wanda cannot see through the eyes of any Decrypted, only Archons - because they have Thinkamancy. Hence Parson linked Wanda with Maggie, so they could get into Ansom's mind and see through his eyes. All of that, here (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/7).okay, got me there, but why did she need to see out of his eyes? Couldn't Maggie just send him his orders via thinkagram?

NEO|Phyte
2014-10-27, 01:55 PM
okay, got me there, but why did she need to see out of his eyes? Couldn't Maggie just send him his orders via thinkagram?

We have woefully insufficient data on the subject of Prisoners, but IIRC the point of the link was also to improve Ansom's resolve so he would be able to free himself and go from prisoner to fugitive.
Oh hey, dug up the page where they talked about prisoners, they explicitly can't be sent thinkagrams (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/7).

Alex Knight
2014-10-27, 02:00 PM
Also, it reduces the links in the chain to getting information to Parson. Instead of "Tell me what he told you he saw" it's "Tell me what you saw"

Avaris
2014-10-27, 02:07 PM
Question that just occurred to me: how does Charlie know Parson has eyes on this battle? So far, I don't think anything has occurred that could not have occurred without Parson's influence: prisoner escape is a thing that happens, and its not unreasonable to assume that Ansom would seize his moment to save the Tool of his own volition. My first thought would be monitoring Maggie's thinkamancy, but if that were the case Charlie would have known about Ansom's attack and acted sooner to prevent it/warn Jillian's side.

HandofShadows
2014-10-27, 02:41 PM
If Parson DIDN't have eyes on this battle he would be stupid. And Charlie knows Parson is not stupid. So Charlie is working under the (correct) assumtion that Parson is watching the fight and taking what actions he can to win.

deuterio12
2014-10-27, 02:42 PM
Question that just occurred to me: how does Charlie know Parson has eyes on this battle? So far, I don't think anything has occurred that could not have occurred without Parson's influence: prisoner escape is a thing that happens, and its not unreasonable to assume that Ansom would seize his moment to save the Tool of his own volition. My first thought would be monitoring Maggie's thinkamancy, but if that were the case Charlie would have known about Ansom's attack and acted sooner to prevent it/warn Jillian's side.

The main disadvantage of the arkendish is that it can't multitask. Charlie couldn't spy over Maggie because he was too busy warning Jillian that Stanley was coming with a big enough force to kick her ass, and after that Charlie was too busy linking up with Vanna to make the hobgobwins turn.

Landis963
2014-10-27, 02:43 PM
Question that just occurred to me: how does Charlie know Parson has eyes on this battle? So far, I don't think anything has occurred that could not have occurred without Parson's influence: prisoner escape is a thing that happens, and its not unreasonable to assume that Ansom would seize his moment to save the Tool of his own volition. My first thought would be monitoring Maggie's thinkamancy, but if that were the case Charlie would have known about Ansom's attack and acted sooner to prevent it/warn Jillian's side.

Genre savvy. Charlie's come across one of those "perfect warlords" before, and doesn't trust coincidences when they're around.

HalfTangible
2014-10-27, 02:47 PM
We have woefully insufficient data on the subject of Prisoners, but IIRC the point of the link was also to improve Ansom's resolve so he would be able to free himself and go from prisoner to fugitive.
Oh hey, dug up the page where they talked about prisoners, they explicitly can't be sent thinkagrams (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/7).

... okay. So how is this link even possible in the first place? This is basically a thinkagram >.>

Lizard Lord
2014-10-27, 03:02 PM
... okay. So how is this link even possible in the first place? This is basically a thinkagram >.>

Because she is linked to Wanda? *shrugs*

Leewei
2014-10-27, 04:00 PM
Because she is linked to Wanda? *shrugs*

Also, as a decrypted, Ansom is linked to Wanda.

Fjolnir
2014-10-27, 10:56 PM
Then why doesn't Wanda take damage every time a decrypted falls or is hurt? We know that Wanda can see through the eyes of her Decrypted already, and she watches them fall die all the time.

The ONLY decrypted units we know she can see through are the decrypted archons...

The Glyphstone
2014-10-27, 11:03 PM
Megalogwiffs look just as intimidating on the ground, at least from this angle. Sort of sumo-wrestler-ish.

Aquillion
2014-10-28, 09:36 AM
I think Charlie's offer was definitely intended to make Parson react like this.

The issue is that -- why would Parson accept? Charlie isn't actually offering anything useful. GK doesn't need the money, and killing Jillian is vastly more valuable in any case. Beyond that, Parson knows Charlie has it in for him (and Charlie has to know he knows at this point), so Parson is obviously going to parse any offer from Charlie in that light.

HalfTangible
2014-10-28, 10:08 AM
I think Charlie's offer was definitely intended to make Parson react like this.

The issue is that -- why would Parson accept? Charlie isn't actually offering anything useful. GK doesn't need the money, and killing Jillian is vastly more valuable in any case. Beyond that, Parson knows Charlie has it in for him (and Charlie has to know he knows at this point), so Parson is obviously going to parse any offer from Charlie in that light.

I've been getting the feeling of scrambling panic from Charlie this chapter - ie, he's being forced to think on the spot with the limited resources he has. He's offering the deal to Parson in a blind panic because - love her or hate her - Jillian is one of Charlie's strongest allies/assets/whatever-ya-wanna-call-it.

Alternatively, Charlie is thoroughly ticked because of last book's shenanigans and wants Jillian dead to rights. By which i mean dead.

Kornaki
2014-10-28, 11:45 AM
This isn't terribly unusual. Right before Parson set off the volcano Charlie was still trying to make a deal; it's what the man/dish thing does. All that is required is believing that Jillian's odds of survival are greater if he makes the offer than if he doesn't, it isn't required that he thinks the offer has a good chance of success.

HandofShadows
2014-10-28, 02:35 PM
Charlie is a chessmaster. He plans everything out ahead ot time or created the situation. This battle was totaly unforseen by him (Stanley being unpredictable) and him is way out of his element. Parson however IS very good at thinking on his feet as well as being a planner. And that is what scares the *^%@ out of Charlie because he has no way to predict what Parson will do.

deuterio12
2014-10-29, 05:01 AM
I've been getting the feeling of scrambling panic from Charlie this chapter - ie, he's being forced to think on the spot with the limited resources he has. He's offering the deal to Parson in a blind panic because - love her or hate her - Jillian is one of Charlie's strongest allies/assets/whatever-ya-wanna-call-it.

Alternatively, Charlie is thoroughly ticked because of last book's shenanigans and wants Jillian dead to rights. By which i mean dead.

I believe it's more of a matter of Charlie wanting to protect his secrets rather than covering up a mad "ally" that constantly goes off-plan and just does whatever she wants without regards for the greater picture. Charlie had actually told Jillian in an earlier update that she was on her own after running away from the battle for Jetstone.

His chance of mind is because Jillian knows a lot about Charlie at this point, and if she falls on GK's hands, then she'll sing a lot of valuable intel to Hamster

Jillian dying wouldn't prevent that either, as Stanley just'll have to carry her cold dead corpse to the nearest portal to the MK for Wanda to decrypt her and make Jillian spill out a lot of beans about Charlie. Super effective because we know that dying and being decrypted ends the "until you die" contracts that Charlie enforced with FAQs forces back in the day to keep their moutsh shut.

I bet that Charlie is currently banging his head against the arkendish thinking "Holy titans why did I trust her so much?" but it's too late to regret that now. He's gonna try to do everything he can to prevent GK from taking in Jillian, dead or alive.

Fjolnir
2014-10-29, 10:59 AM
He wins this portion via exploiting superstition and luckamancy...

Mobius Twist
2014-10-29, 06:40 PM
I predict that the eagle's capture mechanic might become useful in short order.

Called it.

Aquillion
2014-10-29, 08:13 PM
Regarding Charlie, it occurs to me that he could want Jillian to die here, where they will have trouble retrieving her corpse, rather than someplace where she could be Decrypted.

It's also possible that Wanda's sudden intense determination to kill and Decrypt Jillian is similar to her determination to kill and Decrypt Jack -- she knows it will free Jillian from her deal with Charlie, and possibly whatever Thinkamancy they did to her brain.

Math_Mage
2014-10-29, 09:16 PM
Why is there speculation that Charlie wants Jillian to die here? Is it because he broke link with Vanna? I don't get it.

The Glyphstone
2014-10-29, 09:39 PM
Why is there speculation that Charlie wants Jillian to die here? Is it because he broke link with Vanna? I don't get it.

We're expecting reverse psychology, is my guess. Charlie is trying to buy off Jillian's life from Parson, thus making Parson + Co. think he wants Jillian alive and thus encourage them to kill her and spite him (when in fact it's the opposite).

deuterio12
2014-10-30, 03:28 AM
We're expecting reverse psychology, is my guess. Charlie is trying to buy off Jillian's life from Parson, thus making Parson + Co. think he wants Jillian alive and thus encourage them to kill her and spite him (when in fact it's the opposite).

If Charlie wanted Jillian dead, all he needed to do was just sit down and watch. GK's ground infantry would auto-engage anyway, and even Stanley said "I'm gonna finish this", meaning he'll make sure that Jillian doesn't leave the hex alive.

Kornaki
2014-10-30, 07:43 AM
Why is there speculation that Charlie wants Jillian to die here? Is it because he broke link with Vanna? I don't get it.

Because Charlie's attempt to deal with Parson was pretty weak, so people think that it was intended to prod Parson into killing Jillian.

Killer Angel
2014-10-30, 08:04 AM
Called it.

...and it was satisfying.
Good bird! (pat pat) :smallbiggrin:

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-30, 08:05 AM
Because Charlie's attempt to deal with Parson was pretty weak, so people think that it was intended to prod Parson into killing Jillian.

It really wasn't, there was not much attempt to deal beyond

Charlie : "Hey lets nego"

Parson : "Get Bent"

Wanda : "JILLIAN MUST PAY! for reasons unrelated to her not loving me...yeah!

Parson : "Great Wanda hopped on the crazy train" "Sure Wanda..lets croak her"

Winterwind
2014-10-30, 09:05 AM
Why is there speculation that Charlie wants Jillian to die here? Is it because he broke link with Vanna? I don't get it.Well, as said, Charlie's offer to Parson was not exactly amazing, and it resulted in Parson doing everything in his power to make sure Jillian dies all the more. So, if his goal was to save Jillian, it backfired big time. This leaves us with the options:
1) Charlie just completely messed up. Since this is Charlie, a lot of people here give him the benefit of the doubt and do not believe this one.
2) Charlie was manipulating Parson into doing exactly what Parson just did. To what ends, difficult to tell; actually wanting Jillian to die is one possibility a lot of people believe in, but it seems doubtful to me, given that he warned her and tried to help her out via Vanna in the first place.
3) Charlie knew this was unlikely to help, but figured that not doing anything would result in a dead Jillian all the same, so he might as well try.

My personal theory? I think Charlie doesn't know about Misty being dead. He has his tons of dossiers on the units of all sides, so he knows Gobwin Knob has a Lookamancer, but there really wasn't much of a chance for him to learn that she died, given that it happened just a few turns before Parson did his thing and Gobwin Knob started steamrolling everyone. Hence, he assumed Parson was seeing everything in detail already and was fully aware of Jillian still being alive. Parson reacting the way he did now might clue Charlie in to the fact that Misty is, in fact, dead, and Parson's intel is much worse than he thought it was - a piece of knowledge that might work out greatly to Charlie's advantage in the upcoming war.


It really wasn't, there was not much attempt to deal beyond

Charlie : "Hey lets nego"

Parson : "Get Bent"...no, Parson very explicitly asked Charlie what he had to offer. He was suspicious of Charlie's motives, as he should be, but he did not cut him off before allowing him to make his offer (or part of it, at least).


Wanda : "JILLIAN MUST PAY! for reasons unrelated to her not loving me...yeah!

Parson : "Great Wanda hopped on the crazy train" "Sure Wanda..lets croak her"I don't think it was so much "JILLIAN MUST PAY! for reasons unrelated to her not loving me...yeah!" as "Oh, finally, a chance for all of my wishes to come true and for me to get Jillian's full and unshared love.".

Jasdoif
2014-10-30, 01:53 PM
If Charlie wanted Jillian dead, all he needed to do was just sit down and watch. GK's ground infantry would auto-engage anyway, and even Stanley said "I'm gonna finish this", meaning he'll make sure that Jillian doesn't leave the hex alive.If Charlie wanted Jillian dead, he'd want her to die on terms favorable to him. If nothing else, Jillian is a strong warlord, so Decrypted Jillian would be quite an asset for Parson. And I'm confident Charlie doesn't want to give Parson any free advantages.

HalfTangible
2014-10-30, 01:54 PM
Thought of something: The problem with the 'Charlie wants Jillian to die' angle is that Gobwin Knob has decryption.

The Glyphstone
2014-10-30, 02:15 PM
Thought of something: The problem with the 'Charlie wants Jillian to die' angle is that Gobwin Knob has decryption.

Only if they can get Wanda to Jillian's hex before their next turn. Depending on how far out she is from Spacerock, they might or might not be able to dwagon relay in time.

HandofShadows
2014-10-30, 02:18 PM
Only if they can get Wanda to Jillian's hex before their next turn. Depending on how far out she is from Spacerock, they might or might not be able to dwagon relay in time.

That's only if they don't disturb the body. If they move it, it will not vanish and Wanda can decrypt her.

HalfTangible
2014-10-30, 02:21 PM
Only if they can get Wanda to Jillian's hex before their next turn. Depending on how far out she is from Spacerock, they might or might not be able to dwagon relay in time.

A side can claim a corpse as a resource, which keeps it intact for a longer period.

TheStranger
2014-10-30, 02:44 PM
I don't think Charlie is trying to get Jillian killed, but it's possible that he's trying to pin Stanley down. I don't think he cares about Jillian, so it's possible that his goal is to make Stanley commit his units to killing her, weakening him and allowing Charlie to bring a larger force into position to take Stanley out while he's weak. Open assault would normally be against Charlie's style, but since he's already tipped his hand by turning the hobgobwins he may figure it's worth it to take Stanley out.

Or, and I think this is at least equally possible, Charlie looks like he erred here because that's a side effect of trying to write two supposed geniuses outmaneuvering each other. In order for one of them to be shown to be a genius, the other has to make an error that's vulnerable to second-guessing. Xanatos Worf Effect, as it were.

Welf
2014-10-30, 05:33 PM
My personal theory? I think Charlie doesn't know about Misty being dead. He has his tons of dossiers on the units of all sides, so he knows Gobwin Knob has a Lookamancer, but there really wasn't much of a chance for him to learn that she died, given that it happened just a few turns before Parson did his thing and Gobwin Knob started steamrolling everyone. Hence, he assumed Parson was seeing everything in detail already and was fully aware of Jillian still being alive. Parson reacting the way he did now might clue Charlie in to the fact that Misty is, in fact, dead, and Parson's intel is much worse than he thought it was - a piece of knowledge that might work out greatly to Charlie's advantage in the upcoming war.

I think that is unlikely. He should be aware that onl Parson, Wanda, Sizemore and Maggie entered the magic kingdom since he has allies there. He also know Stanley only had a Foolamancer in his stack. To still have a Lookamancer they would have to either send her out GK before the battle, or she would have to stay and survived the vulcano trap. And since the battle GK has used scouts.

Winterwind
2014-10-30, 06:38 PM
I think that is unlikely. He should be aware that onl Parson, Wanda, Sizemore and Maggie entered the magic kingdom since he has allies there. He also know Stanley only had a Foolamancer in his stack. To still have a Lookamancer they would have to either send her out GK before the battle, or she would have to stay and survived the vulcano trap. And since the battle GK has used scouts.Good points, all of them. I retract that theory. :smallredface:

Aquillion
2014-10-31, 12:51 AM
Really, this brings up another point:

Why do we so rarely see nations acquire new casters from the MK?

According to Digdoug's story, there should be a bunch of them sticking around desperate for a job (since they need it to survive.) GK has a ton of money, seems to be winning overwhelmingly, and ought to have been able to sweep up huge amounts of casters.

Douglas
2014-10-31, 03:14 AM
Really, this brings up another point:

Why do we so rarely see nations acquire new casters from the MK?

According to Digdoug's story, there should be a bunch of them sticking around desperate for a job (since they need it to survive.) GK has a ton of money, seems to be winning overwhelmingly, and ought to have been able to sweep up huge amounts of casters.
A unit acquired in such a way would likely have very low loyalty, and the side doing it would be committing to paying this low-loyalty unit's upkeep indefinitely, without necessarily having regularly occurring use for it to get their money's worth. Also, the casters that are in such a situation are likely among the lowest level and least skilled/useful, because if they weren't they'd likely be finding enough jobs to easily support themselves. So, a hypothetical side recruiting permanent members that way would be putting a lot of money in recurring payments to acquire incompetent likely turncoats without knowing or planning for their specialties in advance.

But the real reason is probably more "It Just Isn't Done!"

That wouldn't stop Parson, of course, but I'd guess no one's mentioned anything about it to him so he doesn't know it's an option.

Wayson
2014-10-31, 05:44 AM
New text-ish update!

I have wondered for quite a while what, exactly, Charlie is doing with his giant Archon fleet. We never see too many of them in the field at any one time, although apparently he's got legions of them at his lone city. And he's got higher priorities than fighting a war with a side that has declared its intent to conquer the entire world, possesses two Arkentools, and can actually do what it is trying to. What, exactly, is higher priority than stopping THAT? To boot, 200k+ is not chump change for any side. To drop that much in reparations for a dubious quasi-ally instead of committing Archons to simply schwack Stanley and eliminate the threat is... odd.

And all for Jillian, who is a few crows shy of a murder and useless to everyone.

I feel like I'm missing a lot here.

HandofShadows
2014-10-31, 06:55 AM
And all for Jillian, who is a few crows shy of a murder and useless to everyone.

I feel like I'm missing a lot here.

Apparently Fate had decided that Jillian has a VERY important role to play at some point. But, yeah. We are missing a lot of info that Charlie has. Or THINKS he has.

HandofShadows
2014-10-31, 06:59 AM
According to Digdoug's story, there should be a bunch of them sticking around desperate for a job (since they need it to survive.) GK has a ton of money, seems to be winning overwhelmingly, and ought to have been able to sweep up huge amounts of casters.

We do have a reason GK does not hire. Many are refusing to do buisness with GK. Some point early in Book 2 it was mentioned that K was running low on healing scrolls because no one in the MK would sell to them. Probably do to Charlie.

ObadiahtheSlim
2014-10-31, 07:14 AM
A unit acquired in such a way would likely have very low loyalty, and the side doing it would be committing to paying this low-loyalty unit's upkeep indefinitely, without necessarily having regularly occurring use for it to get their money's worth. Also, the casters that are in such a situation are likely among the lowest level and least skilled/useful, because if they weren't they'd likely be finding enough jobs to easily support themselves. So, a hypothetical side recruiting permanent members that way would be putting a lot of money in recurring payments to acquire incompetent likely turncoats without knowing or planning for their specialties in advance.

But the real reason is probably more "It Just Isn't Done!"

That wouldn't stop Parson, of course, but I'd guess no one's mentioned anything about it to him so he doesn't know it's an option.

Even a high value caster would be a dubious proposition. Having a powerful caster with low loyalty in your capitol is a risky proposition. What happens when in the middle of a fight, someone gives a better offer. Maybe like a chance at revenge for their fallen side or a chance to attack an old enemy of their former side. Something that could appeal to their loyalty to the fallen side.

You also don't know if the caster in question had a part in the fall of their former side. Why are they safe in the MK instead of disbanding/croaking with the rest of their side?

Killer Angel
2014-10-31, 07:45 AM
New text-ish update!

I have wondered for quite a while what, exactly, Charlie is doing with his giant Archon fleet. We never see too many of them in the field at any one time, although apparently he's got legions of them at his lone city. And he's got higher priorities than fighting a war with a side that has declared its intent to conquer the entire world, possesses two Arkentools, and can actually do what it is trying to. What, exactly, is higher priority than stopping THAT? To boot, 200k+ is not chump change for any side. To drop that much in reparations for a dubious quasi-ally instead of committing Archons to simply schwack Stanley and eliminate the threat is... odd.

And all for Jillian, who is a few crows shy of a murder and useless to everyone.

I feel like I'm missing a lot here.

I still think that a good part of this "offer", is a bluff.

slayerx
2014-10-31, 08:38 AM
Really, this brings up another point:

Why do we so rarely see nations acquire new casters from the MK?

According to Digdoug's story, there should be a bunch of them sticking around desperate for a job (since they need it to survive.) GK has a ton of money, seems to be winning overwhelmingly, and ought to have been able to sweep up huge amounts of casters.

Well, as mentioned above, GK has the problem of being HATED by the magic kingdom; so they'll have trouble hiring casters. The other problem however is the self-worth of casters and their worth to sides. The casters that every side wants like Thinkamancers find enough work that they don't need to tie themselves down to a side; Dirtamancers are not very popular to sides, but they find enough work in the magic kingdom that they are fine without merc work. Why should they join a side when its safer being a merc? Basically the only casters that are desperate enough to join a side are the ones that sides generally don't want. First theirs the carnymancers, but after what happened with Jojo, Parson won't trust a carny... and i don't think the carny's would want to join up with a side warring with Charlie. Croakamancers are probably another one, but GK has no need for them when they have Wanda. That leaves the predictamancers as the only other caster type we know that has trouble finding work. GK could probably hire one, but no point to hiring more than that. Most of the other disciplines, the ones that GK might have use for, probably do well enough for themselves that they would not join a side as despised as GK

Winterwind
2014-10-31, 09:29 AM
Apparently Fate had decided that Jillian has a VERY important role to play at some point. But, yeah. We are missing a lot of info that Charlie has. Or THINKS he has.It might be that none of Charlie's allies in the MK were perceptive enough to notice that Jack is Decrypted now (couldn't blame them, really - with a huge number of Decrypted stomping around the MK and the shock that must have been, it might have been easy to overlook that that one caster way back in the background had a different set of clothes now, and then he disappeared into the Thinkamancer Temple). In which case, this might all be about protecting the information from Book 0, Charlie being unaware that Parson already has all or most of it.

TheStranger
2014-10-31, 12:14 PM
I still think that a good part of this "offer", is a bluff.

I do think it's a bluff that he has enough archons nearby to get to Stanley before he gets home. Parson's right; here's really no reason for Charlie not to simply let Stanley deplete his forces on Jillian then croak him, if he has the capability. Worried about Jillian being decrypted and revealing Book 0 secrets? That can't happen until Stanley meets up with Wanda, so Charlie can recover or destroy the body before it's a problem. Concerned about breaking contracts by using archons he's supposed to commit elsewhere? I doubt the value of those contracts is more than 200,000 schmuckers, and the reputation damage from breaking contracts to croak Stanley would be minimal. I'm really not seeing a downside to simply bringing overwhelming force to bear on Stanley, if that's an option. And really, the force required to destroy Stanley's already-weakened strike force isn't a substantial amount for Charlie to divert from other uses. A couple dozen archons could do it easily, if Charlie had them nearby.

That said, it's unclear how worried Parson should be about Charlie deciding to make destroying him a priority. We know Charlie has at least 600 archons (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/25), both in his capital and fulfilling various contracts elsewhere. If he were to pull them out of the field and attack Gobwin Knob with even half of that, they'd be hard-pressed to stop him. And really, the only reason for Charlie not to do that is the enormous upkeep of archons. If Charlie has 600 archons, with upkeep ranging from 200-500 schmuckers, the cumulative upkeep is at least $150,000, probably more like $200,000. Since Charlie has only one city, the vast majority of that upkeep must come from mercenary work, which is presumably what most of his archons are doing; earning upwards of $200,000 each turn in dozens of petty conflicts (making his offer to Parson here chump change). Which means that Charlie probably *can't* bring the bulk of his forces to bear; he can't afford to take them off mercenary duty for more than a handful of turns unless his treasury is in the tens of millions. Charlie certainly has some number of archons that aren't tied down by mercenary work, and some amount of reserve funds that he can use to pay upkeep if he needs to go into the red for a while, but we really don't know how many archons Charlie could commit if he wanted to. It's certainly possible that he could easily wipe Gobwin Knob or any other side off the map if he chose to do so, but it's also possible that he's actually in a fairly precarious position, only a few turns away from ruin if he loses his income stream.

Fjolnir
2014-10-31, 12:49 PM
Here's the question that was asked in the erfworld forums: "What kind of enemy is stronger than the combined might of 3 schools of magic and GK?"

HandofShadows
2014-10-31, 01:01 PM
Here's the question that was asked in the erfworld forums: "What kind of enemy is stronger than the combined might of 3 schools of magic and GK?"

Yeah, that IS an interesting question. An outside force? (Another "game" trying to invade Erfworld) Fate? Or something totaly from Left Field. :smallconfused:

TheWombatOfDoom
2014-10-31, 01:06 PM
Yeah, that IS an interesting question. An outside force? (Another "game" trying to invade Erfworld) Fate? Or something totaly from Left Field. :smallconfused:

What about the problem that is Charlie's secret? The thing with the drugs? I mean think about it...drugs mixed with thinkamancy....what if the monkey on his back turned into something real??

Legato Endless
2014-10-31, 01:19 PM
Here's the question that was asked in the erfworld forums: "What kind of enemy is stronger than the combined might of 3 schools of magic and GK?"

The antagonist in Book 4? :smalltongue:

Winterwind
2014-10-31, 01:48 PM
I do think it's a bluff that he has enough archons nearby to get to Stanley before he gets home.
*analysis*While he sort of implied that he'd use his own status as aerial power to take Stanley down, if necessary, he didn't explicitly say he had enough archons around to do so.

Here's my thought - we have already seen how powerful scrolls can be, if they are of the hundreds-of-thousands-of-Schmuckers-sort, and we have seen how powerful big link-ups can be. Link-ups, using Magic Kingdom casters, creating weird new spell effects and tons of money all being things that Charlie specializes in. What if he created - maybe for a cost measured in the millions - a scroll or a few that are, essentially, atom bombs? He wouldn't need a lot of archons in the area then - just one (keep in mind, they are sort-of-casters themselves, so they might very well be capable of using scrolls) flying into that hex and then destroying everything in it would suffice. He already hinted at having all sorts of things prepared that he never was forced to use before in the Book 2 Epilogue - right about now is the time where it might make narrative sense from the author's perspective to show that, so it doesn't come across as empty threats. And that might explain why he might not want to use this option, either, if he can avoid it - it would be extremely costly, and he probably wouldn't want people knowing that he can do things like that (lest he finds himself in the position of "biggest threat to status quo" and thus target of a massive coalition.

EDIT: Now, it almost certainly is not going to be exactly something like this - removing Jillian and Ansom both from the story right now would leave their arc unresolved, there is certainly more planned for at least one of those characters still - but it might be something more selective than that. In any case, I'm starting to suspect that one of the purposes of this whole scene might be underscoring just how dangerous an opponent Charlie actually is - it started with the hobgobwins-thing, but I'm not at all convinced it is not about to get a hundred times worse.

The Glyphstone
2014-10-31, 01:53 PM
The cries of 'Deus Ex Machina' would shake the heavens, but it's a possibility.

Winterwind
2014-10-31, 01:57 PM
The cries of 'Deus Ex Machina' would shake the heavens, but it's a possibility.Unless whatever Charlie used literally made a god jump out of a machine, boop the boop up, and vanish - something just entirely this side of possible, considering this is Erfworld :smalltongue: - I'd disagree with that assessment adamantly. We were told that Charlie has some really big things in store that he never had to use. Not seeing some of this before the story is over would be just plain weird.

Jasdoif
2014-10-31, 03:04 PM
It occurs to me....If Charlie has the ability to kill Stanley unless Jillian is left alive, wouldn't he still have the ability if Jillian is left alive? If does so, the only difference in the end result would be that he still has Jillian as an asset. He may expecting that to stop/trivialize Parson as well, which is why he's willing to pay so much (in funds and calculations) to get to that point. And that's without considering whether Charlie could reclaim the monetary portion from GK's capital after Stanley's dead.

The Glyphstone
2014-10-31, 03:06 PM
Unless whatever Charlie used literally made a god jump out of a machine, boop the boop up, and vanish - something just entirely this side of possible, considering this is Erfworld :smalltongue: - I'd disagree with that assessment adamantly. We were told that Charlie has some really big things in store that he never had to use. Not seeing some of this before the story is over would be just plain weird.

I never said the cries would be justified.:smallbiggrin:

TechnoWarforged
2014-10-31, 03:21 PM
I rememeber something about "dragon relays" way back where a unit can be transported by a train of dwagons. I think Stanley can get back home safely that way.

What is interesting is the dialogue between Parson and Charlie. If you are in Charlie's position you know Parson will never accept anything that you offer, so why make the offer? You might find out a thing or two, but ended up revealing more about what you know and your motative. From the conversation in the last two comic strip, it looks like both sides are telling each other a lot if they really pay attention.

Killer Angel
2014-10-31, 03:26 PM
That said, it's unclear how worried Parson should be about Charlie deciding to make destroying him a priority.

It seems to me that, during the siege of Spacerock, Charlie devoted a good amount of resources and personal attention, just to kill the Fat Man.
Parson is already very high in Charlie's priority, I believe.

HalfTangible
2014-10-31, 03:49 PM
I rememeber something about "dragon relays" way back where a unit can be transported by a train of dwagons. I think Stanley can get back home safely that way.

What is interesting is the dialogue between Parson and Charlie. If you are in Charlie's position you know Parson will never accept anything that you offer, so why make the offer? You might find out a thing or two, but ended up revealing more about what you know and your motative. From the conversation in the last two comic strip, it looks like both sides are telling each other a lot if they really pay attention.

The dwagon relays are in shambles right now.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-31, 05:14 PM
Here's the question that was asked in the erfworld forums: "What kind of enemy is stronger than the combined might of 3 schools of magic and GK?"

Charlie has already told us.


The only Enemy Worth Fighting.

Kornaki
2014-10-31, 05:49 PM
What contractual obligation is Charlie fulfilling?

Rogar Demonblud
2014-10-31, 08:17 PM
Not specified, unless I've forgotten even more of the plot than usual.

Anybody else suddenly being reminded of the discussion about what would happen if Jillian Banhammer got a hold of the ArkenHammer?

Anteros
2014-10-31, 09:50 PM
I hope we get some sort of explanation as to why Jillian is so important at some point soon other than author fiat.

hajo
2014-11-01, 10:55 PM
What contractual obligation is Charlie fulfilling?
A few things come to mind:
* the deal (https://wiki.erfworld.com/IPTSF_Text_75) of a lifetime (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%200/81) with FAQ
* the deal with "terrible cost" to keep him alife (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+0/78) from Olive's flowers (https://wiki.erfworld.com/IPTSF_Text_66)
* any amount of still undisclosed deals with clients and casters ...

Winterwind
2014-11-02, 08:31 AM
of a lifetime (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%200/81)Rereading this one, I find there are a lot of important details I'd forgotten about. So Jillian couldn't tell anyone anything about Charlie, even if she was Decrypted - in her case, those memories are entirely gone, alongside all kinds of other important parts of her identity. Might it be that something Charlie saw in Jillian's mindscape back then is the reason he wants her to survive now? Or maybe because he set up something in her mind that will make her play a part important to his schemes?

ryuplaneswalker
2014-11-02, 08:45 AM
Rereading this one, I find there are a lot of important details I'd forgotten about. So Jillian couldn't tell anyone anything about Charlie, even if she was Decrypted - in her case, those memories are entirely gone, alongside all kinds of other important parts of her identity. Might it be that something Charlie saw in Jillian's mindscape back then is the reason he wants her to survive now? Or maybe because he set up something in her mind that will make her play a part important to his schemes?

Unless Decryption were to heal the damage he has inflicted upon Jillian, we know it ended Jack's contract..perhaps Decrypted heals the corpse to its full state.

Winterwind
2014-11-02, 09:45 AM
Unless Decryption were to heal the damage he has inflicted upon Jillian, we know it ended Jack's contract..perhaps Decrypted heals the corpse to its full state.But the contract and what he did to Jillian had nothing to do with each other. The contract is only a magical compunction not to talk about that subject; what Charlie did to Jillian while curing her from the heroine bud addiction was something very different and far more monstrous (clearly evidenced by her already being under that contract before she ever subjected herself to the curing procedure). So, while Decryption might reverse what he did - which I very, very much doubt, though - it ending Jack's contract does not indicate anything whatsoever when it comes to this, one way or the other.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-11-02, 08:11 PM
But the contract and what he did to Jillian had nothing to do with each other. The contract is only a magical compunction not to talk about that subject; what Charlie did to Jillian while curing her from the heroine bud addiction was something very different and far more monstrous (clearly evidenced by her already being under that contract before she ever subjected herself to the curing procedure). So, while Decryption might reverse what he did - which I very, very much doubt, though - it ending Jack's contract does not indicate anything whatsoever when it comes to this, one way or the other.

No, but if you are Charlie do you want to at all risk it?

tomaO2
2014-11-03, 02:38 AM
I'm a bit interested in Charlie knowing about Stanley leaving the hex, even though it wasn't transmitted by thinkagram. Charlie's definitely got SOME assets in the area. Is it enough to kill off Stanley before he gets to safety? Maybe not but it's pretty clear that Charlie can do a mass strike any time he wants. I don't doubt that he's got a LOT of money in the bank and he can afford some crazy high losses, if he really needs to. So, yea, if Charlie makes you his sole target, and is willing to overlook the many concequences of doing so, you are dead.

The way to avoid that is to stop expanding, first off. What happened to the lead elements at SpaceRock? Are they doing anything useful? Are they still attacking or just sitting around in the city? The empire is currently too expanded. If Parson had simply razed the city, then he could have automatically had the capital moved back to GK, if I understand how that works, and then retreated the army so that he can get a defendable border set up.

Primary goals would be setting up the dwagon relay system, creating glasses that can see through foolmancy, getting some knights with said glasses on dwagons to scout around city hexes, and then have Wanda go around to kill and decrypt every damn unit in the empire.

Rinse, and repeat, until every city is brimming with 0 upkeep units. Upgrade every city to at least level 3. Get Stanley hunting to tame new dwagons, now that he has a scouting alternative to the archons that he lost earlier (not even keeping enough so Stan could keep taming was such a waste), so that his fliers can get back to strength.

Then, after everything is properly guarded, start expanding again. GK can steamroll pretty much everyone because of 0 upkeep, especially if the dwagon relay can get Wanda to the area. It's just such a massive advantage but they wasted it by over extending themselves. Expansion was fine at first, but after taking over Unaroyal, they should have taken a break.

Another thing, aren't there supposed to be casters dying from lack of upkeep? Even if GK is hated by MK, I still think it should be possible to convince suicidal casters that there is a new life that can await them if they just allow themselves to be re-popped by Wanda.

Bird
2014-11-03, 06:29 PM
Have there been any official comments about how Erfworld handles real-world chronology?

I ask because Parson was explicitly born in 1982 and IIRC went into Erfworld in 2006, but has awareness of memes that came into use after that (the last page being a good example).

The potential explanations I have for this are:

1. New memes are necessary for comedic purposes and we're just supposed to ignore it.

2. Parson doesn't actually come from Earth, but from somewhere similar that had modern memes as well as 2006-era memes (and 2006 era Internet Explorer, and Ohio, etc).

3. Some mechanism of Erfworld gives Parson knowledge of things from after he plot'd over.

4. Erfworld has a sliding chronology, like the Marvel Universe. (For those unfamiliar--in the MU, stuff from decades ago is generally still in continuity, but is understood to have happened relatively recently instead of in the '70s or whenever. This is not so different from a "just ignore it" answer.)

Landis963
2014-11-03, 06:42 PM
Have there been any official comments about how Erfworld handles real-world chronology?

I ask because Parson was explicitly born in 1982 and IIRC went into Erfworld in 2006, but has awareness of memes that came into use after that (the last page being a good example).

The potential explanations I have for this are:

1. New memes are necessary for comedic purposes and we're just supposed to ignore it.

2. Parson doesn't actually come from Earth, but from somewhere similar that had modern memes as well as 2006-era memes (and 2006 era Internet Explorer, and Ohio, etc).

3. Some mechanism of Erfworld gives Parson knowledge of things from after he plot'd over.

4. Erfworld has a sliding chronology, like the Marvel Universe. (For those unfamiliar--in the MU, stuff from decades ago is generally still in continuity, but is understood to have happened relatively recently instead of in the '70s or whenever. This is not so different from a "just ignore it" answer.)

I assume 3. Either natural Thinkamancy or Signamancy.

tomaO2
2014-11-03, 06:46 PM
Have there been any official comments about how Erfworld handles real-world chronology?

Sort of, this isn't exactly the first time the whole new meme question has popped up. In the IRC chat, we discussed it during Parson's 'lolwhat?' in book two.

Unfortunately, we aren't really allowed to talk about Rob's quotes in chat. It's a rule he has said he is serious about. He might be okay with me mentioning the chat but it's not really worth risking. It was also a long time ago so he might not recall it.

That said, I would suggest that you consider memes an exception to this timeline rule and assume that Erfworld is copying new memes from Earth all the time.

Aquillion
2014-11-03, 06:55 PM
I assume 3. Either natural Thinkamancy or Signamancy.
I think we have to go with "just ignore it".

The problem with any other explanation is that that means that Parson is aging at a ridiculous rate -- if it is 2014 in-comic, Parson is now 32 or so, meaning he has aged eight years since the comic began. We could possibly explain this by saying time flows differently or whatever, but I suspect that that will not be the case if he ever contacts Earth again.

HalfTangible
2014-11-04, 12:13 AM
Then, after everything is properly guarded, start expanding again. GK can steamroll pretty much everyone because of 0 upkeep, especially if the dwagon relay can get Wanda to the area. It's just such a massive advantage but they wasted it by over extending themselves. Expansion was fine at first, but after taking over Unaroyal, they should have taken a break.

See the summer updates. They did. :smalltongue:

Porthos
2014-11-04, 01:34 AM
Up-up-update!
Silly thought, but I wonder if Parson could use his little gizmo to figure out the odds that he will indeed regret taking the deal.

Though, come to think of it, I'm reminded of a certain truism regarding Deveels. :smallamused:

Probably doesn't matter in this case. Parson knows he's gonna get screwed, but he still can't pass it up. Worst kinda deal, really. :smallamused:

Aquillion
2014-11-04, 01:47 AM
I like Wanda's "fate will guard him." Pretty sure it is, Wanda. For a Fateist, she doesn't really have a firm handle on her own philosophy.

Anyway, it's obviously a trap, but the problem is that Parson is bound by Duty. He literally can't reject this offer, and Charlie knows it.

VariaVespasa
2014-11-04, 07:13 AM
Not entirely true. He could pass the decision to Stanley to make. And he could use the bracer on the offer, as was suggested.

Killer Angel
2014-11-04, 07:24 AM
Not entirely true. He could pass the decision to Stanley to make. And he could use the bracer on the offer, as was suggested.

It seems to me that, for once, Parson wants to play safely. Even if he doesn't like the possible implications, the risk is, indeed, great.

HandofShadows
2014-11-04, 07:38 AM
Yeah, Parson is playing it safe and I think it's the right choice. Parson did run the numbers with the bracer and he knows of there is a 20% chance Stanley could be killed. And that's just for the forces Parson knows about. If Charlie has some Archons in the area, the odds could get a LOT worse very quickly. Even with just a 20% chance of Stanley getting killed, it's not worth the risk of ending the entire side JUST to get Jillian. Even if she is going to be a major PITA at soem future point.

guttering flame
2014-11-04, 07:57 AM
We know Parson's braser takes Fate into account (from the calculations he made about returning to his world when Spacerock was on fire) so Wanda is probably wrong. Fate is not protecting Stanley.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-11-04, 08:37 AM
Yeah, Parson is playing it safe and I think it's the right choice. Parson did run the numbers with the bracer and he knows of there is a 20% chance Stanley could be killed. And that's just for the forces Parson knows about. If Charlie has some Archons in the area, the odds could get a LOT worse very quickly. Even with just a 20% chance of Stanley getting killed, it's not worth the risk of ending the entire side JUST to get Jillian. Even if she is going to be a major PITA at soem future point.

Truth be told, I still think Capturing Jillian is the safest choice here, if Charlie at all attacks while she is in transport execute her instantly. Negotiate for her release once Stanley is at Jetstone surrounded by Decrypted.

TheStranger
2014-11-04, 10:46 AM
No way this ends well for GK. On its face, taking this offer seems like the safe, smart move - it's too risky to leave Stanley exposed to an unknown force. But I can't imagine that this isn't some type of trap. Though I wouldn't put it past Stanley to just attack while Parson's still negotiating, either. One way or another, it's awfully convenient that almost every important GK unit is in the magic kingdom right now.

slayerx
2014-11-04, 11:59 AM
Truth be told, I still think Capturing Jillian is the safest choice here, if Charlie at all attacks while she is in transport execute her instantly. Negotiate for her release once Stanley is at Jetstone surrounded by Decrypted.

Charlie made it clear he wanted Jillian to remain in fighting form and not have to start over. Charlie may be more than willing to risk Jillian to spite Parson for capturing Jillian and ruining her side. When it comes down to it, who has more to loose? Charlie, or GK? For Charlie, loosing Jillian is a serious set back, but for GK, loosing Stanley means game over. Charlie can risk Jillian, but Parson can't risk Stanley.


I like Wanda's "fate will guard him." Pretty sure it is, Wanda. For a Fateist, she doesn't really have a firm handle on her own philosophy.

Anyway, it's obviously a trap, but the problem is that Parson is bound by Duty. He literally can't reject this offer, and Charlie knows it.

Kinda reminds me of that old Joke about the guy who relied on god to save him during a flood.
So a guy gets stuck in his home during a flood. A boat comes by and offers to help him, but he refuses saying God will protect him.
The water gets higher and another boat comes by, and the guy again refuses saying god will protect him.
The water gets so high the guy is stuck on the roof and a helicopter offers to help but he once again refuses.
The guy drowns and goes to heaven and asks God why he did not save him.
God replies, "What do you mean? I sent you two boats and a helicopter"

Y'know for all wanda knows Charlie offering this deal, and Parson excepting this deal IS fate's way of protecting Stanley. You might even say that Fate helpped ansom get loose so that he could not only save Stanley from Jillian, but also to help turn the tide of battle just enough that Charlie would be forced to make a truce and leave Stanley alone instead of going after him next turn.


Really, one probalme with Wanda's fatalist beliefs is that she doesn't actually KNOW fate's plans; she only THINKS she knows. Her entire thesis that fate will protect her and Stanley is based on them being attuned, but she should know that isn't true. Blair and Bell were the former owners of the Arkendish and arken shows, but fate did not protect them... and when Judy attuned to the shoes she managed to leave the game. 3 attuned wielders of the arken tools and fate did not prevent them from leaving the game. If fate did not keep those 3 in the game, then why will it keep Stanley or Wanda? There is good reason to think that they do not have divine protection and it would be foolish to assume they do.

guttering flame
2014-11-04, 01:48 PM
I can't buy that Charlie's trying to save Jillian for her own sake. He lost interest in her as soon as he completed that mind-scrub in book 0. The one who promoted her back into importance was Ansom and later Trasilvito's king. So why does he view her as vital now all of a sudden. Th idea that Wanda could make her reveal his secrets through uncroaking doesn't make a lot of sense. Parson already heard them from Jack and it's a safe bet that Charlie knows Jack's status. He was in Spacerock when it burned to a crisp and than returned with Wanda and Parson good as new to the magic kingdom, unlike the half burnt Parson. What could Jillian tell Parson that he hasn't already heard from Jack?

My theory is that Jillian is not the thing Charlie is trying to protect. What he wants to protect is in fact the unpopped Faq heir. This new Banhammer could take over Jillian's role as the instrument of Fate and wouldn't have her connections to Wanda which Charlie probably sees as problematic. He'd be more tractable and open to Charlie's manipulations. (This also explains why the Faq-heir subplot is in the story) If Jillian fell captive or was killed right now, the heir would be frozen or destroyed so Charlie needs to keep Jillian free for a few more turns until the heir is safely popped. As soon as the heir arrives Charlie would move to assassinate her.




I've reread book 0 recently and got to wondering what were the long-term changes Charlie and Betsy caused in Jillian's character when they mind-raped her (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+0/81). Some think that Charlie erased Jillian free will, sense of duty or her connection to Fate but I was more interested in how Betsy changed her. Obviously Betsy didn't manage to make Jillian a pacifist. Even before Faq fell, Jillian was still a mercenary leader. So what did Betsy's meddling do? They seemed to be quite extensive so they should have had some effect. Betsy dumped out things that looked ugly to her and probably encouraged nice things:

Betsy drifted away, toward something like Jillian‘s ideas of happiness, contentedness. Green meadows and safety.
Then I thought, what about Jillian love-life? In the current story Jillian is all about Ansom. How does he fit her previous anti-royal mannered self? He doesn't. He's nice and handsome, all about fancy tea sets and protecting Jillian from the dangers of war.

Aquillion
2014-11-04, 02:34 PM
Wanda just confirmed that the reason she needs to decrypt Jillian is related to Charlie's NDA, and that it's something Jack doesn't know about.

halfeye
2014-11-04, 04:35 PM
This new Banhammer
Is Banhammer a surname? I'm pretty sure Jillian's surname is Zamussels, couldn't the king's personal name have been Banhammer?

Rogar Demonblud
2014-11-05, 10:28 AM
Zamussels was her 'stage name' when doing merc work, not her (Royalist) family name. She's been referred to as Banhammer since taking the throne.

Legato Endless
2014-11-05, 12:16 PM
The King's first name was Loj.

TheWombatOfDoom
2014-11-05, 01:08 PM
The King's first name was Loj.

Which means if he took his Daughters name, he'd be:

Loj Zamussels.

Large Zamussels.

Welf
2014-11-05, 01:48 PM
I wonder if Parson could have gotten out of it more. Like capturing the caster and croaking all high level warlords. They are not necessary for Jillian to survive

Loj Zamussels? Would that be "Lots of muscles"? I never get these puns.

TheWombatOfDoom
2014-11-05, 01:51 PM
I wonder if Parson could have gotten out of it more. Like capturing the caster and croaking all high level warlords. They are not necessary for Jillian to survive

Loj Zamussels? Would that be "Lots of muscles"? I never get these puns.

Oh yeah! Actually, it would probably be "Loads of Muscles".

Edit: I guess it depends how you pronounce it - Low-jah. Lah-juh. La-j. eh, who knows.

Rogar Demonblud
2014-11-05, 08:10 PM
Actually, that pun's probably Large Ban Hammer.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-11-05, 09:57 PM
I think it is premature to assume Parson has fully taken the deal yet, look at his orders to Stanley

"Do not attack, yet" yet implies that Parson thinks the Negotiation has a chance of falling through.

Killer Angel
2014-11-06, 01:54 PM
Why aren't we discussing Forecastle's update? :smallsmile:

F. really has an habit, in dealing with superstitions... :smalltongue:

Kornaki
2014-11-06, 02:09 PM
An unexplained hole in the bottom of the ship? Sounds like the work of the secret Anchorbar weapon. Mayhaps the frigate is immune to whatever it is.

Fjolnir
2014-11-06, 02:14 PM
submarines or torpedoes?

Math_Mage
2014-11-06, 02:38 PM
Fish. Divers. Squid.

Avaris
2014-11-06, 03:10 PM
Fish. Divers. Squid.

Thinking about it, it's fairly clear where this is going, which I suspect means Forecastle will end soon. Anchorbar has warlords on all their ships, and it seems only warlords can tame wild creatures. Therefore the warlords are there to tame the squid.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-11-06, 08:21 PM
Thinking about it, it's fairly clear where this is going, which I suspect means Forecastle will end soon. Anchorbar has warlords on all their ships, and it seems only warlords can tame wild creatures. Therefore the warlords are there to tame the squid.

Alternatively it is Torpedoes, and the Archery special is required for them to be effective, the whole "Have landlubber warlords on every ship" is so that the one warlord leading the stack that fires torpedoes is not sticking out like a sore thumb

The Glyphstone
2014-11-07, 01:34 PM
My bet is on squid, or whales/sharks something else that attacks below the waterline. The running subtheme of sea animals - Double Eagles, Sea Dwagons, etc. - seems more likely to be narratively significant than the alternative of a ship-mounted secret superweapon that requires a warlord Special to activate.

NEO|Phyte
2014-11-07, 08:55 PM
Update.
First thing I've noticed is that this gives hard Coordinates for the location of Charlie's capital. Not sure if his location is generally unknown or just nobody is fool enough to try and attack it. Furthermore, if I mathed correctly, it's not that much farther away from GK than Faq, though terrain probably counts for a lot on that front.

As for the contract itself, seems fairly straightforward, not noticing any obvious loopholes outside of Jillian using her contractual immunity to wade bodily into GK's forces alone to wreck some face.

HalfTangible
2014-11-08, 12:07 AM
Update.
First thing I've noticed is that this gives hard Coordinates for the location of Charlie's capital. Not sure if his location is generally unknown or just nobody is fool enough to try and attack it. Furthermore, if I mathed correctly, it's not that much farther away from GK than Faq, though terrain probably counts for a lot on that front.

As for the contract itself, seems fairly straightforward, not noticing any obvious loopholes outside of Jillian using her contractual immunity to wade bodily into GK's forces alone to wreck some face.

One possible loophole: Charlie may very well not release info regarding the spell. He agrees to provide what CC knows about the spell, but that's not the same thing as what CHARLIE knows. In addition, it's possible (if not quite probable) that Charlie has removed his own knowledge of the spell via Arkendish trickery.

One thing that Charlie might try to do with this agreement is to box GK into their area (via the given six-hex rule) or spend the next 30 turns grouping up for a huge attack. We learned that Charlie has agents all over the known world, and it's possible he could recall all of them for a fight with GK. Or he wants to ruin Parson's relationship with Stanley.

There are a ton of ways dealing with Charlie is a bad idea, but we won't know how until Charlie actually does something.

Bird
2014-11-08, 12:38 AM
Update.
First thing I've noticed is that this gives hard Coordinates for the location of Charlie's capital. Not sure if his location is generally unknown or just nobody is fool enough to try and attack it. Furthermore, if I mathed correctly, it's not that much farther away from GK than Faq, though terrain probably counts for a lot on that front.

As for the contract itself, seems fairly straightforward, not noticing any obvious loopholes outside of Jillian using her contractual immunity to wade bodily into GK's forces alone to wreck some face.
I thought about potential Jillian shenanigans, too. If a pink dwagon were available, hitting her with a bubble would be a thing to do. (Assuming that doesn't count as "bodily harm.") Must be other ways to incapacitate without harming, also.

But--if I were Parson, I'd want a clause specifying that if Jillian attacked, Charlescomm would automatically go into default of the agreement.

I enjoy the picture of the hobgobwin (Vurp?) looking up at the dwagons. Wonder what's going through his head?

Looks like Isaac is helping Parson with the SPELL. Curious to see what Charlie has helped them learn.

HalfTangible
2014-11-08, 01:38 AM
Wait, I just noticed...

Charlie's contract specifically states that PHYSICAL harm won't be done to the units. What about mental? Could he turn entire cities full of units, then march them out under the direction of the contract which demands he remove them?

Winterwind
2014-11-08, 09:48 AM
Wait, I just noticed...

Charlie's contract specifically states that PHYSICAL harm won't be done to the units. What about mental? Could he turn entire cities full of units, then march them out under the direction of the contract which demands he remove them?
Yes, I also think that if Charlie is going to abuse some part of the contract, it is going to come along those lines. Given how much the contract tries to be general otherwise, speaking of only "material harm" when it comes to things that can be done to GK seems odd.

The part with Jillian doesn't seem very troublesome to me; near as I can tell, she could still be captured if she walked in on her own. I think she may come up with some way to abuse it, but I don't see it being all that major.

The only other part I see where Charlie might be screwing them over is if there were other agreements, obligations or standing debts between him and GK besides the whole "Parson does X calculations"-thing, which were in GK's favour and which we were not told about.

I wish we were told what the penalties for breaking the contract were for both sides.

Lastly, the coordinates give us the following distances:
Spacerock - Charlescomm: -25, +152 -> ~154 apart
Spacerock - FAQ: -96, +63 -> ~115 apart
Charlescomm - FAQ: -71, -89 -> ~114 apart
Those... aren't very far, assuming that's in hexes (MCS? Main Coordinate System?). A gwiffon (~52 move (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0008.html)) would need merely three turns to get from FAQ to either Spacerock or Charlescomm, with plenty of move to spare. Kind of surprising that Charlescomm, operating all over the world, in places many other sides don't even know exist, just so happens to be physically nearby. If nothing else, it means that FAQ is strategically important to Charlie, as it would probably lend itself to mounting attacks against him.

ObadiahtheSlim
2014-11-08, 10:03 AM
I thought GK already knew where Charlie's capitol was. At least one of the Archons should have known.

Winterwind
2014-11-08, 10:04 AM
I thought GK already knew where Charlie's capitol was. At least one of the Archons should have known.They did, yes. I doubt Charlie would have placed those coordinates there if he believed GK might not know.

EDIT: Also, one thing I just noticed - while I believe we don't have the exact coordinates of the city of Gobwin Knob itself, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0010.html), we have coordinates for a place very near to it, so much so that dwagons could get from there to Gobwin Knob in a single turn, probably using only half their move, even (which, as I recall, puts it at within 20 hexes of GK). That, if I'm not mistaken, would actually put Gobwin Knob between Charlescomm and FAQ...

Kornaki
2014-11-08, 11:15 PM
The phrase "material harm" does not mean "harm of a physical nature", it means "a substantial amount of harm" (basically, it means 'I don't really want to define how much harm qualifies, but we all know what we're talking about"). Things like mind control absolutely count.

HalfTangible
2014-11-08, 11:51 PM
The phrase "material harm" does not mean "harm of a physical nature", it means "a substantial amount of harm" (basically, it means 'I don't really want to define how much harm qualifies, but we all know what we're talking about"). Things like mind control absolutely count.

The phrase used was "physical harm", last i checked >.>

Kornaki
2014-11-09, 12:27 AM
The phrase used was "physical harm", last i checked >.>

Section 4, part 1


Neither party shall attempt to cause...material harm...

Unless you mean it got retconjured.

Winterwind
2014-11-09, 02:20 AM
The phrase "material harm" does not mean "harm of a physical nature", it means "a substantial amount of harm" (basically, it means 'I don't really want to define how much harm qualifies, but we all know what we're talking about"). Things like mind control absolutely count.Ohhh, I see. Thank you! :smallsmile:


Unless you mean it got retconjured.I read it fairly shortly after it got posted, and it said "material" even then, so if it was retconjured, it must have happened really, really fast.

Killer Angel
2014-11-09, 06:15 AM
Yes, I also think that if Charlie is going to abuse some part of the contract, it is going to come along those lines.

Charlie is very lawyerish. He will abuse some part of the contract. In a legal way, of course.

Bird
2014-11-09, 12:46 PM
I'm not positive that he will. Charlie may think that he can get what he wants without any abuse necessary.

HalfTangible
2014-11-09, 12:59 PM
Ohhh, I see. Thank you! :smallsmile:

I read it fairly shortly after it got posted, and it said "material" even then, so if it was retconjured, it must have happened really, really fast.

No no no, after that. Article 4, subsection b

"except in the event GK interests are physically attacked or threatened by Faq"

slayerx
2014-11-09, 02:13 PM
I'm not positive that he will. Charlie may think that he can get what he wants without any abuse necessary.

Ya, Charlie may just be making this deal just to escape from losing Jillian. He has a use for her and doesn't want to lose her. Not mention that Jillian has been so unreliable that he may even think that pulling her out of the fire will help make her a bit more cooperative... might just work too; she's already regretting what she did with ansom which may make it a lot easier for her to forget about Charlie trying to dust him. Also he may think Jillian needs time to rebuild her forces, so she could use the downtime. The truce only lasts 30 turns, so if Charlie wants a fight he can wait till then.

Really, only reason charlie would need to rush things is if he thought he could croak Stanely while he was in the field travelling between capitals... But it does not seem like Charlie has anything he can use. The truce prevents him from using his own archons or Faq. Charlie would have to find an outside party who would attack GK without working for charlie. The only other major air power who would do that is Transilvito, but they are much too weak to move on GK.

Mobius Twist
2014-11-10, 05:19 PM
The very last part seems problematic. Diplomatic actions do not seem to be considered aggression. As far as Parson is concerned, he's a persona non grata in the Magic Kingdom, whereas Charlie is free to do his standard machinations to undermine all parties involved.

Kornaki
2014-11-10, 05:47 PM
Under breach of truce it says the minimum penalty for a breach of Section 4 Part and then doesn't mention which part. Looks like a pretty big loophole to me :smalltongue:

More seriously, any side is breaching the contract if they violate the wording or intent of the contract, so I think any concerns about physical vs. mental harm are probably null.

Math_Mage
2014-11-10, 05:50 PM
Ugh. I'm sure the wording of the contract will turn out to be important at some point, but I just can't be arsed to read through it all.

Legato Endless
2014-11-10, 07:01 PM
Bit disappointed Charlie gave up those calculations. Seeing Parson have to madly improve after Charlie confirms the efficacy of his potential countermove in a pitched battle would have been entertaining.

In better news, Jillian is giving her lover more incentive to get up and get the Caesar-Don subplot moving forward again.

Rogar Demonblud
2014-11-10, 07:01 PM
I did read it. Other than the Erf specific phrases, it's a boilerplate non-compete with non-disclosure rider.

TheStranger
2014-11-10, 07:24 PM
I did notice the diplomacy exclusion - Charlie certainly may be able to take advantage of that.

I also notice the penalties, which don't seem severe enough to guarantee much (aside from loss of a city, which would be devastating to Charlie but only applies to breach of confidentiality). I suspect that Charlie, given the opportunity, would probably be willing to spend half his treasury to eliminate Parson as a threat. We know from the updates that he's let at least 3 days pass without acting, but if he sees an opportunity, I wouldn't put it past him (or Parson, actually) to eat the penalty and make a preemptive strike.

Even if all this does is buy Charlie time, it's a net win for him. I'm quite certain that $200,000 is nothing to him, and he can do a lot in 30 turns. Prior to this, I think he was on his heels a bit, this delay lets him be proactive instead of reactive. My take on the Parson/Charlie rivalry is that Charlie is good at complex planning, but Parson adjusts better on the fly. I feel like Charlie does more with these 30 turns than GK.

Bird
2014-11-10, 08:15 PM
Pretty happy to get the rest of the agreement--I wasn't actually expecting to see that.

Ayyyy, Vinny! How long has it been since we've seen that guy?

I'm not sure how much the agreement would help Charlie eliminate Parson. It's not as though Parson is going to say "well, we're friends now" and proceed with defenses as though he has nothing to worry about.

Also--perhaps Charlie can afford to eat 500k to eliminate Parson (especially if eliminating him would mean that he'd get the money back), but what would it mean to his business long-term if he broke a contract in such flagrant fashion? According to the terms of the contract, I suppose GK would also be in violation of the contract if it told anyone that Charlie had broken contract within the non-disclosure period. But that would still seem like an enormous risk on Charlie's part.

The Glyphstone
2014-11-10, 09:51 PM
The confidentiality clause doesn't seem to restrict that - they are freely allowed to say they have a pact with Charlescomm, and nothing stops them from trumpeting to the world that Charlescomm violated that pact. They're just forbidden to explain how, why, or in what manner, since doing so would reveal the terms of agreement.

TheStranger
2014-11-10, 10:38 PM
I don't know that Charlie suffers long-term for breaking his contract with GK, if that's what happens. As unpopular as they are, I think he could pass it off as a special case. At worst, he probably has a short-term hit to his business, scales back his archon production to save on costs, and waits for memories to fade and sides to need his help badly enough to take their chances. Maybe he goes above and beyond on his contracts for a while to build his reputation back up, and after a few thousand turns everything's back to normal. Charlie's playing a long game, and as long as it's business as usual in Erfworld he should be fine. So I think he's justified in doing almost anything to preserve the status quo.

On the flip side, Charlie is by all indications the only ruler in Erfworld both willing and able to match Parson's rule exploits and pose a serious threat to GK. If Parson has a chance to take him out for the low price of half the GK treasury, he should do it.

Maybe that's just speculation and it works out that it's smarter for both sides to follow the contract and wait the 30 days, but I would hope that both Parson and Charlie are at least open to the possibility of efficient breach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient_breach). Most likely, both of them are, so neither is going to give the other the opportunity, though.

Aquillion
2014-11-10, 10:46 PM
Well, narratively I would assume we will see some of the clauses of the contract come up -- otherwise, why give us all this detail on them?

hajo
2014-11-11, 06:26 AM
Ayyyy, Vinny! How long has it been
since we've seen that guy?
A bit more than one (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/227)year (https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_Epilogue_21) :smallamused:

Killer Angel
2014-11-11, 07:22 AM
Ugh. I'm sure the wording of the contract will turn out to be important at some point, but I just can't be arsed to read through it all.

+1. Legalese doesn't have much appeal on me.


Ayyyy, Vinny! How long has it been since we've seen that guy?

The art isn't doing justice to him.

HandofShadows
2014-11-11, 09:38 AM
The art isn't doing justice to him.

He's not the only one. :( I think about the only person he's do well most of the time is Parson. If your a Tool though, you still get some Xin artwork. :smallcool:

Yana
2014-11-11, 09:42 AM
Did Xin ever even have the opportunity to draw Vinny during her run in the story? I don't think she did.

stsasser
2014-11-11, 01:26 PM
Ugh. I'm sure the wording of the contract will turn out to be important at some point, but I just can't be arsed to read through it all.


+1. Legalese doesn't have much appeal on me.

Any fool would know that they're gonna get screwed by that deal. Bad Comic! No cookie!

Winterwind
2014-11-11, 02:16 PM
Well, narratively I would assume we will see some of the clauses of the contract come up -- otherwise, why give us all this detail on them?Indeed.

Though it might be that this whole thing is playing with our expectations, and it is actually going to be Parson who takes advantage of this thing. Especially since none of the penalties would actually be all that terrible for GK - certainly nothing they would want to suffer, but it wouldn't seriously impede them - while the breach of the confidentiality penalty would completely devastate Charlie (making him lose his only city).

Also, I wonder if this "hand over half treasury or 5,000,000 Schmuckers, whichever is lower"-penalty is an indication that Charlie's treasury significantly exceeds 10,000,000 Schmuckers (which, given the numbers we've seen otherwise throughout the story, would be incredible).

Legato Endless
2014-11-11, 02:49 PM
Yeah, that's absurd although I can see why. Since we know Charlie spends more than 120,000 and less than 300,000 schmuckers per turn on Archons alone, not including his 700 golems and whatever other incidental expenditures (caster hiring, bounties, ect.), he has to have a vast treasury. Especially since we've seen no indication of the lean season he's being suffering thanks to Royalist propaganda stopping him from actively pursuing a lot of goals with no immediate monetary gain.

Douglas
2014-11-11, 03:03 PM
While the breach of confidentiality penalty would be a lot less serious for Gobwin Knob than for Charlie, it's still pretty significant - Charlie would get to choose which city, and we have no idea what contractual transfer of a city might do for/to any units inside that city.

Anteros
2014-11-11, 04:00 PM
It could just be filler. I agree that it will probably be relevant at some point though.


Did Xin ever even have the opportunity to draw Vinny during her run in the story? I don't think she did.

I don't think so.

Kornaki
2014-11-11, 09:28 PM
What is the point of the confidentiality agreement? On the one hand it kind of makes sense that Charlie can't tell FAQ they have relative impunity to be jerks to Gobwin Knob for 30 turns, but it doesn't really read like that's the intent to me. I wonder if Charlie sticks that in every contract so that when it does serve a purpose people can't get significant information from the statement "Got a deal with Charlie. Can't talk details".

hajo
2014-11-12, 05:54 AM
Did Xin ever even have the opportunity to draw Vinny during her run in the story? I don't think she did.

Vinny was last seen in Book1_139 (https://wiki.erfworld.com/TBFGK_139),
and last heard of in Book1_Intermission_37 (https://wiki.erfworld.com/First_Intermission_37)

Xin started drawing at the begin of book 2.

Book 2 had most of its action in Spacerock, Thinkspace and MK, and a few bits in GK and with Transylvito spying on the action.

Vinny was sitting in FAQ (https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_Epilogue_21) during that whole time, and that picture is already from the new artist.

Jasdoif
2014-11-12, 07:24 PM
What is the point of the confidentiality agreement? On the one hand it kind of makes sense that Charlie can't tell FAQ they have relative impunity to be jerks to Gobwin Knob for 30 turns, but it doesn't really read like that's the intent to me.Hmm. That agreement also means units of Gobwin Knob can't disclose to FAQ the lengths to which Charlie went to keep Jillian alive.

And the part of the contract about FAQ and Jillian only restricts Gobwin Knob units, not Charlie or Charlescomm. And Charlie says he's protecting Jillian because of a contractual obligation. And there's some aspect of Wanda's NDA that Jack doesn't know about, presumably meaning Wanda has an agreement with Charlie that Jack doesn't know about. And Charlie went as far as wiping Jillian's knowledge of him from her mind at the end of the prequel book. And there's a weird exchange in one of the text updates (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/68) suggesting Charlie is concerned about Wanda.

I'm thinking there's some type of contract between Charlie and Wanda centered around Jillian, which Jillian herself is unaware of.

Kornaki
2014-11-13, 12:46 AM
Hmm. That agreement also means units of Gobwin Knob can't disclose to FAQ the lengths to which Charlie went to keep Jillian alive.

And the part of the contract about FAQ and Jillian only restricts Gobwin Knob units, not Charlie or Charlescomm. And Charlie says he's protecting Jillian because of a contractual obligation. And there's some aspect of Wanda's NDA that Jack doesn't know about, presumably meaning Wanda has an agreement with Charlie that Jack doesn't know about. And Charlie went as far as wiping Jillian's knowledge of him from her mind at the end of the prequel book. And there's a weird exchange in one of the text updates (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/68) suggesting Charlie is concerned about Wanda.

I'm thinking there's some type of contract between Charlie and Wanda centered around Jillian, which Jillian herself is unaware of.

Ooh, this sounds plausible. The weird exchange is because Charlie is concerned about parson, but doesn't want to tell Jillian about him.

Bird
2014-11-14, 12:01 PM
New one (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/34) is up.

"Jack croaked me." Decrypting has a way of making awkward conversations with your murderer less awkward.

On the other hand, Jack, Wanda and Ansom are casting each other mighty fishy looks.

Also, Parson just gained 20 pounds back and has a different face.

TheWombatOfDoom
2014-11-14, 12:24 PM
New one (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/34) is up.

"Jack croaked me." Decrypting has a way of making awkward conversations with your murderer less awkward.

On the other hand, Jack, Wanda and Ansom are casting each other mighty fishy looks.

Also, Parson just gained 20 pounds back and has a different face.

He just has is armor on now. Before that was his tshirt.

Bird
2014-11-14, 12:49 PM
He just has is armor on now. Before that was his tshirt.
You're right that shirt vs armor makes a difference. It's not just body, though--his face looks more rotund to me in panels 3 and 4.

But I was really just making an unnecessarily snarky dig at consistency in the art. Look what happens to Ace's nose between panels 3 and 4.

Radar
2014-11-14, 02:26 PM
Art issues aside, Parson and Stanley have finely found somethig to bond over. I really like that.

Killer Angel
2014-11-14, 04:49 PM
Grand strategy, eh? I'm curious to see if also Parson knows how to exploit a contract...

Yana
2014-11-14, 05:26 PM
Grand strategy, eh? I'm curious to see if also Parson knows how to exploit a contract...

I should hope he does, because I'd be shocked if Charlie didn't try to pull something here.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-11-14, 08:08 PM
Art issues aside, Parson and Stanley have finely found somethig to bond over. I really like that.

I have been saying forever that Stanley and Parson will end up being the best of Buddies by the end of this through some real fun Character growth through Stanley.

Bird
2014-11-14, 08:51 PM
I have been saying forever that Stanley and Parson will end up being the best of Buddies by the end of this through some real fun Character growth through Stanley.
I've quite enjoyed Stanley's character growth, too, and we've had great evidence that he's made a conscious effort to change--including his effort to learn his underlings' names. I think that's only part of the story when we consider his changing behavior, though.

It's worth noting that Stanley was incredibly stressed throughout Book 1, when we also saw his jerkiest behavior. His position has been relatively secure since then. I wonder if his growth will backslide if/when he gets put under similar long-term stress. (I wouldn't count something like his recent scuffle with Jillian; Stanley likes fighting, which is a very different sort of stress than inevitably losing all your cities one by one.)

((Arguing against the idea that Stanley will backslide: when things got iffy towards the end of Book 2, Stanley did get grouchy, but he went out of his way to help Parson with the capital relocation in the end.))

Also, some of the increasing trust he puts in Parson has been/will be due to his fear of things becoming "All Wanda All the Time" again. Look at that room he's in--of the nine characters present, five of them are either Wanda or decrypted.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-11-14, 09:00 PM
Well, IMO nobody with half a brain trusts Wanda fully.

I would trust Charlie more than Wanda.

Bird
2014-11-14, 09:03 PM
Well, IMO nobody with half a brain trusts Wanda fully.

I would trust Charlie more than Wanda.
How much does Jack trust Wanda, do you think? (That's not a rhetorical question.)

Also: in Stanley's case, I think not trusting Wanda is part of the problem, but so is the feeling like she's more important than him on his own side.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-11-14, 09:05 PM
Seeing as he is Decrypted i doubt it matters unless something breaks the connection to the pliers like Ossomer did.

However I am not sure jack has an attachment that powerful.

Legato Endless
2014-11-15, 06:04 AM
I wonder if strategy time includes obtaining new natural allies, or if Parson will consider them too great a security risk after what Charlie just pulled.

Welf
2014-11-15, 06:19 AM
It seems Ansom doesn't enjoy the story about how his father got murdered in the family throne room as much as the others.

Aquillion
2014-11-15, 10:38 AM
It seems Ansom doesn't enjoy the story about how his father got murdered in the family throne room as much as the others.Meanwhile, Ace seems positively happy to report that Jack killed him here. I think he's enjoying working for Parson more than he did working for Slately.

NEO|Phyte
2014-11-15, 10:52 AM
Meanwhile, Ace seems positively happy to report that Jack killed him here. I think he's enjoying working for Parson more than he did working for Slately.

I should imagine so, his love of making 'real' use of dollamancy is practically tailor-made for Parson to employ.

Morty
2014-11-15, 11:06 AM
Yewch, I still can't stand the new art. I keep reading because I'm interested where the story will go, but the new artist isn't getting better.

ObadiahtheSlim
2014-11-15, 11:15 AM
Lets hope for some art evolution to come along. Even the great Penny Arcade started off looking like crap before Mike Krahulik (Gabe) really found his stride.

Gez
2014-11-15, 04:39 PM
Lets hope for some art evolution to come along. Even the great Penny Arcade started off looking like crap before Mike Krahulik (Gabe) really found his stride.

And now it looks like crap again because he doesn't care about it anymore, the other PA projects are more interesting.

Anteros
2014-11-15, 05:32 PM
It seems Ansom doesn't enjoy the story about how his father got murdered in the family throne room as much as the others.

I think it's also the fact that Wanda is glaring at him. There's still a lot of tension there.

Legato Endless
2014-11-16, 08:24 PM
I do wish the art style weren't quite so minimal. Scenes like the Ansom-Wanda aside really leave me grasping. There's a couple of possible explanations for what's happening there, but the expressions and body language are so vague we're left guessing.

guttering flame
2014-11-17, 12:40 AM
I'd like Wanda to look a little less like a child/doll. Its a little jarring everytime a look at her.

Killer Angel
2014-11-17, 07:54 AM
Update (mostly text).

Interesting, for some character development... :smallsmile:

Morty
2014-11-17, 08:03 AM
I do wish the art style weren't quite so minimal. Scenes like the Ansom-Wanda aside really leave me grasping. There's a couple of possible explanations for what's happening there, but the expressions and body language are so vague we're left guessing.

Minimal is a bit flattering to it, I think. I'd call it stiff. There's just not much sense of movement or dynamics.

Kornaki
2014-11-17, 08:42 AM
I thought text updates were relegated to the forecastle story... if Dave(?) is having trouble keeping a schedule with the quality of art that he's producing, I bet Rob is wondering why he held two separate kickstarters just to bring him into the fold here.

HandofShadows
2014-11-17, 09:14 AM
Yep, some real character development. :smallcool: And we got some Xin art on this page. :smallbiggrin:

Aquillion
2014-11-17, 09:29 AM
Huh. Stanley is smarter (and understands people better) than it seems at first, when he actually puts his mind to it.

TheStranger
2014-11-17, 11:40 AM
Minimal is a bit flattering to it, I think. I'd call it stiff. There's just not much sense of movement or dynamics.

I'm of two minds with regard to the art. On the one hand, it's not very good. Minimal and stiff are both things that could accurately be said of it. On the other hand, we've been getting twice-weekly updates (and sometimes Forecastle updates as well) for a while now. And I've got to think that it would be pretty hard to produce Xin-quality art at that rate. So if lousy art is the price we have to pay for timely updates, I can live with that.

Mobius Twist
2014-11-17, 01:00 PM
Something worth mentioning is that artists typically evolve and improve over years of practice. This artist has been drawing for a few months, if that. There's no telling how this will shake out, though if the current wave of discontent is on the main forum is well, he's probably picking up on it.

I guess that can't be doing his confidence any favors.

Bird
2014-11-17, 01:17 PM
IIRC, it was always the plan to have this book be part text--not just Forecastle.

Anyhow, I was going through the book two, and this page (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/131) provides a nice point of comparison for today's update.


Stanley would never tell him so, but he knew Hamster was good. You never tell your people that. Then they start slacking and you yell at them and they go, "Hey! Back off, man! You said I was good!" And then what can you tell them? Just "shut up" or something.

Also, the end of the page has Stanley going over Wanda's opinions on what magics are part of the Arkenhammer. He thinks about learning to use the hammer better--wonder if that's still on his mind?

Random aside: One of the nice things about the text updates is seeing how good Rob is with the 3rd person limited POV. He always nails his characters' voices--the page I link to being a great example of how effortlessly he drops into Stanley-voice.

Rogar Demonblud
2014-11-17, 02:03 PM
Stanley's last line had to hurt to say.

elros
2014-11-17, 09:42 PM
IIRC, it was always the plan to have this book be part text--not just Forecastle.

Anyhow, I was going through the book two, and this page (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/131) provides a nice point of comparison for today's update.



Also, the end of the page has Stanley going over Wanda's opinions on what magics are part of the Arkenhammer. He thinks about learning to use the hammer better--wonder if that's still on his mind?

Random aside: One of the nice things about the text updates is seeing how good Rob is with the 3rd person limited POV. He always nails his characters' voices--the page I link to being a great example of how effortlessly he drops into Stanley-voice.

That why I am really happy with the text update. It gives us a chance to get inside the characters heads, and also the prolonged conversation works better as text than with pictures.
BTW, for some reason Stanely is my favorite character in Erfworld. Maybe it's because I admire someone who is so inadequate compared to the people around him, and yet he is finding a way to make it work (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0160.html) (and even grow a bit in the process).

Morty
2014-11-18, 09:44 AM
I'm of two minds with regard to the art. On the one hand, it's not very good. Minimal and stiff are both things that could accurately be said of it. On the other hand, we've been getting twice-weekly updates (and sometimes Forecastle updates as well) for a while now. And I've got to think that it would be pretty hard to produce Xin-quality art at that rate. So if lousy art is the price we have to pay for timely updates, I can live with that.

That's a good point. If it's a choice between quality and speed, then I'm fine with picking the latter.

Porthos
2014-11-19, 11:07 PM
Forecastle Update.

Short one this time, but still welcome. Like the name of the new ship, I must say. Also like how Forecastle is taking charge of events around him. And I really like how the crew are, well I don't know if I will say warming up to the double eagle, but at least are respecting it enough to suggest using it. That's a pretty big turnaround on their part.

Not sure how Forecastle gonna get out of this mess alive, but it'll be interesting to see just how he does it.

hajo
2014-11-20, 02:04 AM
Forecastle Update
Unsinkable ? Unthinkable ! :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

Anteros
2014-11-20, 02:35 AM
Yep, some real character development. :smallcool: And we got some Xin art on this page. :smallbiggrin:

Is it? I didn't think it looked detailed enough to be hers.


Something worth mentioning is that artists typically evolve and improve over years of practice. This artist has been drawing for a few months, if that. There's no telling how this will shake out, though if the current wave of discontent is on the main forum is well, he's probably picking up on it.

I guess that can't be doing his confidence any favors.

I don't think anyone really cares about his long term development. I mean, I wish him the best and all...but what concerns me is the product I'm looking at, not something he might potentially produce years from now.


This was also the first text update I've bothered to read in years. I gave up on them a long time ago because I felt the writing was not good. I have to give Rob some credit though, his writing has improved somewhat.

Porthos
2014-11-20, 03:06 AM
Forecastle stuff not completely related to the latest update, but I'll spoiler box it anyway since it is in part:

While reading the reaction thread to the latest update over on the official board, I ran across a theory of what is going on that I don't recall seeing being discussed here (though it might have been, since I haven't read every post). Namely, the idea that sea units can't tame feral units (https://wiki.erfworld.com/WB2014_Duke_Forecastle_-_Part_8):


Hashtag’s Guide never once mentioned that the double eagle was tamable. It didn’t talk about taming at all. Seafarers did not do that. They could not tame a feral unit, as far as he knew. Troop ships sometimes traveled with mounts aboard, but naval vessels did not keep beasts for scouting or fighting. That was not a part of naval life or warfare.

So what could be going on here is that Anchorbar has a land unit on its ships which tame random passing monsters and then use them to attack their enemies in unexpected ways. In this case, a tamed sea monster that attacks from underneath.

It neatly solves the reaction to the double eagle in this update and fits the facts we've already been given. The only weak point is the actual quoted post is a tad weak in that old "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" saw.

Still. Still, it does seem to fit.

Perhaps The Out is Forecastle realizing this and taming another feral unit (though how he would do this with no move, I don't know) and/or preparing the ship for this now understood attack.

Orran
2014-11-20, 03:08 AM
Forecastle Update.

Short one this time, but still welcome. Like the name of the new ship, I must say. Also like how Forecastle is taking charge of events around him. And I really like how the crew are, well I don't know if I will say warming up to the double eagle, but at least are respecting it enough to suggest using it. That's a pretty big turnaround on their part.

Not sure how Forecastle gonna get out of this mess alive, but it'll be interesting to see just how he does it.
Or maybe he'll go down with the HMS double eagle after sending the double eagle back with cat harping to report on Anchorbar's secret weapon.
The warlord's cryptic message seems to be about Forecastle using a tamed beast, like Anchorbar have, so the squid guess could be accurate.

Winterwind
2014-11-20, 03:57 AM
While reading the reaction thread to the latest update over on the official board, I ran across a theory of what is going on that I don't recall seeing being discussed here (though it might have been, since I haven't read every post). Namely, the idea that sea units can't tame feral units (https://wiki.erfworld.com/WB2014_Duke_Forecastle_-_Part_8):We actually did come up with that theory here as well. Right after Forecastle tamed the double eagle. I was under the impression that everyone here assumed this to be the most likely explanation, and therefore only theories that differred from it were discussed since, as alternatives. That last update only makes it seem more likely.

Though the Anchorman's comment might also be taken to mean - to present yet another alternate theory - that some sort of shenanigans involving Luckamancy are involved, not necessarily anything relating to tamed units. Forecastle had never heard of the Luckamancy Reserve special before taming the double eagle; maybe the Anchormen learnt some way to, for example, build ships that have that special themselves, or have a lot of things with Luckamancy Reserves (or just one thing with a giant one) from some other source? Given how much this story talks about sailor superstitions, I can't help but feel like those might be relevant, too; perhaps the Anchormen do all of those things that sailors usually avoid deliberately, in order to charge up those Luckamancy Reserves, and then use those during battle, or something like that?

The Troubadour
2014-11-20, 09:10 AM
"Then he raised his eyes skyward and shouted, 'Eaguulllll!' "

My headcanon is that that's a "Scrubs" reference, even if it isn't.

HandofShadows
2014-11-20, 09:25 AM
Is it? I didn't think it looked detailed enough to be hers.


Yeah, look at the lines and coloring. Then compare it to the page before. I think it's not as detailed as a lot of her stuff because it's a rather plain scene. Also notice that Parson does not have cloak on with that page and the page before he did. sm

Kornaki
2014-11-20, 09:26 AM
"Then he raised his eyes skyward and shouted, 'Eaguulllll!' "

My headcanon is that that's a "Scrubs" reference, even if it isn't.

Ahh I totally missed that one. I think it is too.

deuterio12
2014-11-20, 11:15 AM
Though the Anchorman's comment might also be taken to mean - to present yet another alternate theory - that some sort of shenanigans involving Luckamancy are involved, not necessarily anything relating to tamed units. Forecastle had never heard of the Luckamancy Reserve special before taming the double eagle; maybe the Anchormen learnt some way to, for example, build ships that have that special themselves, or have a lot of things with Luckamancy Reserves (or just one thing with a giant one) from some other source? Given how much this story talks about sailor superstitions, I can't help but feel like those might be relevant, too; perhaps the Anchormen do all of those things that sailors usually avoid deliberately, in order to charge up those Luckamancy Reserves, and then use those during battle, or something like that?

Amusing, but alas, doesn't explain why Anchormen are bringing non-seafarer officers on all their ships. Which explicitly gives them penalties on sailing. So there needs to be a pretty big advantage for doing that. And the only thing that so far land warlords have been shown being superior than seafarers is the ability to tame wild units. Worst ship movement is totally worth it when you're getting to play "gotta catch them all!" with sea monsters pokemon-style.

Wave snake used underwater drill! It's super effective! Unsikable II fainted!

TheWombatOfDoom
2014-11-20, 11:18 AM
I predict resussitating Cat will let him know a bit about what caused the hole in the unsinkable. She went down under deck, and went underwater. She had to get a glimpse of something.

Winterwind
2014-11-20, 12:45 PM
Amusing, but alas, doesn't explain why Anchormen are bringing non-seafarer officers on all their ships. Which explicitly gives them penalties on sailing. So there needs to be a pretty big advantage for doing that. And the only thing that so far land warlords have been shown being superior than seafarers is the ability to tame wild units. Worst ship movement is totally worth it when you're getting to play "gotta catch them all!" with sea monsters pokemon-style.That's not, strictly speaking, true - there are two things that so far land warlords have been shown to be superior at than seafarers. One is, as you say, the ability to tame wild units, the other is the lack of superstition. I agree that the trick is more likely to be connected to the former, but wanted to point out that there is a small chance it is the latter instead.


I predict resussitating Cat will let him know a bit about what caused the hole in the unsinkable. She went down under deck, and went underwater. She had to get a glimpse of something. Ah, but do you Predict it? :smalltongue:

Good call, that seems like a likely option.

Yana
2014-11-20, 01:16 PM
How do you save an incapped unit without a healomancer or a healomancy scroll anyway? I was under the impression that a unit died the turn after they were incapped?

Killer Angel
2014-11-20, 01:51 PM
How do you save an incapped unit without a healomancer or a healomancy scroll anyway? I was under the impression that a unit died the turn after they were incapped?

Yep, the unit need to be healed. Linly link (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/135)!

Mobius Twist
2014-11-20, 07:13 PM
I'm thinking that the Double Eagle's luckamancy reserve will come in handy again. As Sylvia Lazarus's experience demonstrates, you can game the incapacitation/recovery system to come back without healing.

NEO|Phyte
2014-11-20, 08:13 PM
I'm thinking that the Double Eagle's luckamancy reserve will come in handy again. As Sylvia Lazarus's experience demonstrates, you can game the incapacitation/recovery system to come back without healing.
Not sure Sylvia is the best example, considering she only didn't croak because Jojo was repeatedly spending juice on bending the incapacitation rules, plus whatever exactly was entailed with the deal he'd made with Charlie.

Narkis
2014-11-20, 09:12 PM
Duke Forecastle himself suffered the same experience when he was keelhauled, and from what we know no healomancy was expended to save him. It's been stated in the comic that there's more than one types of incapacitation, this particular one probably is not quite that critical.

ObadiahtheSlim
2014-11-21, 11:56 AM
The canon states (https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_Text_39)that incapacitated you can't fight, cast, or do anything. Some forms allow a single blow to croak/dust. Some forms also mean you croak at end of turn without external healing. So if incapacitated by a pink dragon or getting pinned means you just can't do anything more than speak. We've yet to see the full rules on drowning and being saved from it. Since Forecastle suffered a similar fate during the keelhauling, it's likely she will be fine next turn.

Bird
2014-11-21, 12:33 PM
New one is up: Parson's lecture on grand strategy (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/36).

Also, from Rob's blog post:


Monday's comic may post on Tuesday, but there will still be 2 updates next week.

Also, we're at a point in the story where multiple turns need to pass, and characters need to have long conversations. So we'll be doing texts with half-page splashes for a while (probably for the next month or so).

When things start to be more action-y and tense again, it will go back to comic pages. I'm committed to writing the story the best way I can, and this is what the story needs to be right now. (One upside of this will be building back a buffer of pages that will help keep us on schedule for the rest of the book.) You can think of these pages as an intermission after Act I.

Calemyr
2014-11-21, 03:43 PM
How is it that Stanley can be the character with the single largest bit of character growth (not counting Parson) yet still also be the little worm he's always been? It's really impressive.

Porthos
2014-11-21, 07:03 PM
Now that's how a "Perfect Warlord" should act. I won't say 'about time', coz that's exceedingly unfair. But it is light years away from where Parson was at the start of Book II.

Love the way he handled Stanley at the end, as well.

Do wonder about the Wanda-Ansom-FAQ/Jetstone stuff. That's actually pretty intriguing. Should be plenty of ore to mine later though, so I'm content on it being on the back burner for now.

Welf
2014-11-21, 07:04 PM
How is it that Stanley can be the character with the single largest bit of character growth (not counting Parson) yet still also be the little worm he's always been? It's really impressive.

I guess he is a pragmatic guy. Royals think the same, but use fancier words (see Haggard or Don's first heir). But since he wasn't popped a noble he won't be accepted as equal anyway, so why bother? :smallamused:

Landis963
2014-11-21, 07:40 PM
Now that's how a "Perfect Warlord" should act. I won't say 'about time', coz that's exceedingly unfair. But it is light years away from where Parson was at the start of Book II.

Love the way he handled Stanley at the end, as well.

Do wonder about the Wanda-Ansom-FAQ/Jetstone stuff. That's actually pretty intriguing. Should be plenty of ore to mine later though, so I'm content on it being on the back burner for now.

To be fair, Book 2 started with him in moral backlash-induced retirement, and Maggie pretty much had to kick him a few times to get him to work again.

Faq could be on its way out though; Caesar wants to conquer it to keep it from being a drain on resources, and Translyvito could listen to Parson if Caesar wins. Jetstone is definitely a soft target, given Tramennis' inner monologue when poring over the Jetstone history book.

Rogar Demonblud
2014-11-21, 09:54 PM
And Stanley is still The Tool.

Fjolnir
2014-11-21, 10:03 PM
Remember, he's not petty because he's short, he's short because he's petty...

Morty
2014-11-22, 06:34 AM
Transylvito is definitely going to be a prime target for the new strategy. Don's position is very weak, and Caesar might be willing to talk business with Parson. Recent events are bound to have soured him to the idea of royalty even more.

Legato Endless
2014-11-22, 04:54 PM
Definitely interested in the turn to diplomacy. Especially if it gets us to start seeing sides outside of the established players; things have been getting a bit stale. Also getting Decrypted Ansom to reunite with Vinne would be awesome. Tramannis and Jilliian have written him off, but his vampire best friend might see things very differently.

Aquillion
2014-11-22, 05:42 PM
Definitely interested in the turn to diplomacy. Especially if it gets us to start seeing sides outside of the established players; things have been getting a bit stale. Also getting Decrypted Ansom to reunite with Vinne would be awesome. Tramannis and Jilliian have written him off, but his vampire best friend might see things very differently.
I suspect that part of this is that Tramannis and Jillian didn't really know him that well. But Vinne knows that the stick up his ass always had a stick up its ass, so I don't think he'll be as surprised to see how he is now.

HalfTangible
2014-11-22, 10:23 PM
Definitely interested in the turn to diplomacy. Especially if it gets us to start seeing sides outside of the established players; things have been getting a bit stale. Also getting Decrypted Ansom to reunite with Vinne would be awesome. Tramannis and Jilliian have written him off, but his vampire best friend might see things very differently.

I see two major possibilities: GK allies with Transylvito after Caesar's coup, or GK allies with everyone EXCEPT Transylvito.

Hear me out.

GK + Transylvito: Faq is a huge enemy for GK right now, if only because of how dedicated Jillian is to fighting Stanley. Wiping her out is a good idea for Parson and Stanley, and Caesar wants Faq wiped out. Don would never approve, but if Caesar's coup is successful he'd make a strong ally for GK. In addition, from the wording of the contract I THINK GK can support Transylvito's efforts to destroy Faq by proxy - provide Schmuckers, that sorta thing.

GK allies with everyone:

From a narrative standpoint, I'd rather gain new villains than allies we've never even heard of. From a practical one... Traemennis wanted to ally with GK before the battle of Spacerock, and while his Dad's death probably put a damper on that plan, he's puts the blame on Charlie more than GK. We saw that in the between-book updates.

Jillian has said openly that she hates Stanley and can never abide him, so at first the idea of her allying with him seems insane. Except that Transylvito is about to try and wipe her off the map, so she's going to be pretty desperate in a few turns. And Ansom and Wanda are both part of GK, so there's a temptation at least. I can definitely see Faq and Caesar both trying to get GK on their side before the truce contract expires, I'm just not sure who they'd side with.

Now, Don would definitely still be an enemy of GK, and this whole idea centers around Caesar's coup failing. It would leave Transylvito alone against Faq (which needs to destroy them to survive), Jetstone (which T just abandoned, albeit against the ruler's wishes) and anyone else Parson manages to get on his side.

halfeye
2014-11-23, 07:41 AM
Caesar's coup,
This is Erfworld. A coup isn't possible, if the king dies without an heir, the side ends, all the units vanish.

NEO|Phyte
2014-11-23, 08:10 AM
This is Erfworld. A coup isn't possible, if the king dies without an heir, the side ends, all the units vanish.

I have vague recollection of an update somewhere mentioning sides splintering off, but I can't recall if the splinter rulers can do it themselves or if it's just a Ruler splits his side to combat upkeep costs thing.

MReav
2014-11-23, 10:17 AM
This is Erfworld. A coup isn't possible, if the king dies without an heir, the side ends, all the units vanish.

Isn't Caesar the Heir?

stsasser
2014-11-23, 10:30 AM
This is Erfworld. A coup isn't possible, if the king dies without an heir, the side ends, all the units vanish.

Looking at the thread title, isn't murdering King Saline how Stanley became Overlord? :smallconfused:

halfeye
2014-11-23, 10:44 AM
Looking at the thread title, isn't murdering King Saline how Stanley became Overlord? :smallconfused:
Stanley, despite being non-royal was heir when Saline died, I don't remember exactly how Saline died, I'm not sure we've been told. IIRC, Caesar is not Don's heir, I'm not sure Don has one.

Legato Endless
2014-11-23, 11:40 AM
Stanley, despite being non-royal was heir when Saline died, I don't remember exactly how Saline died, I'm not sure we've been told. IIRC, Caesar is not Don's heir, I'm not sure Don has one.

We don't know yet. What precisely happened when Saline was overthrown and when FAQ fell have not been entirely explained. Caesar is still the heir until the new royal pops. He was chosen after both of Don's children died. We've heard about Don's son making a play for the throne. The difficultly was how one could rebel since Rulers can kill their subjects with a thought. My guess would be, like prisoners, units that participate gain a circumstantial special. A rebel unit therefor can't be disbanded.

HalfTangible
2014-11-23, 11:50 AM
Stanley, despite being non-royal was heir when Saline died, I don't remember exactly how Saline died, I'm not sure we've been told. IIRC, Caesar is not Don's heir, I'm not sure Don has one.

Caesar is Don's heir by designation (summer updates) and we have already established that Caesar is going behind Don's back to annex Faq.

Rogar Demonblud
2014-11-23, 01:33 PM
We also know that Warlords can override their Ruler if they feel the side is at stake. cf Book 0 and the Crush and the So-Be-It Union arc.

HandofShadows
2014-11-23, 01:36 PM
Looking at the thread title, isn't murdering King Saline how Stanley became Overlord? :smallconfused:

We don't know the whole story behind Saline's death. All we know is that he headed out with all the casters and a large force and the Gobwins and HobGobwins rebeled and killed Saline. Stanley came back and put down te rebelion in a very bloody fashion. We don't know if Stanley planned it, Charlie had something to do with it or it was something else. Oddly, I don't think Stanley planned it. IIRC he still speaks with effection for King Saline.

tomaO2
2014-11-24, 06:39 AM
After this latest update, with Stanley making the "backstabbing is my style" comment, I find myself a lot more willing to believe that he was behind this, or, at least, influenced by Wanda to do it. She might have arranged it herself as well, thinking it was Stanly's fate to rule the side so she better hurry it along.

I am less likely to think it was Charlie because it's been shown that, upon decryption, units break all existing contracts. Therefore, it's likely that some of the other gobwins and hobs would have mentioned this already.

It also allows a narrative conflict. Vurp was the very last living allied unit of GK that knows the truth. He now works for Charlie. Charlie gets the info from Vurp and then uses it to break up the alliances Parson is trying to create. No one would trust someone that was proven to be a backstabber of that level.

I think that would work as a good plot point. I'm sure Vurp is going to be important, sooner or later.

Killer Angel
2014-11-24, 07:24 AM
I see two major possibilities: GK allies with Transylvito after Caesar's coup, or GK allies with everyone EXCEPT Transylvito.

I'd bet my money smuckers on the first one.

Landis963
2014-11-24, 04:17 PM
After this latest update, with Stanley making the "backstabbing is my style" comment, I find myself a lot more willing to believe that he was behind this, or, at least, influenced by Wanda to do it. She might have arranged it herself as well, thinking it was Stanly's fate to rule the side so she better hurry it along.

I am less likely to think it was Charlie because it's been shown that, upon decryption, units break all existing contracts. Therefore, it's likely that some of the other gobwins and hobs would have mentioned this already.

It also allows a narrative conflict. Vurp was the very last living allied unit of GK that knows the truth. He now works for Charlie. Charlie gets the info from Vurp and then uses it to break up the alliances Parson is trying to create. No one would trust someone that was proven to be a backstabber of that level.

I think that would work as a good plot point. I'm sure Vurp is going to be important, sooner or later.

Did Wanda know about Stanley before he became overlord? The timing's a little weird.

Divayth Fyr
2014-11-24, 04:26 PM
Did Wanda know about Stanley before he became overlord? The timing's a little weird.
She heard about him after he got the Arkenhammer, but was still a Warlord (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/160)

Welf
2014-11-24, 05:31 PM
Stanley, despite being non-royal was heir when Saline died, I don't remember exactly how Saline died, I'm not sure we've been told. IIRC, Caesar is not Don's heir, I'm not sure Don has one.

Caesar is the current heir, but Don is popping a new royal heir (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/26). That was on turn 54 after BoGK, the battle for Spacerock started on turn 72, the battle with Jillian was I think 4 turns later, and now the truce is for 30 days. So the truce ends on day 105 after BfGK, and the heir will be pooped on day 115 if a heir takes 60 turns to pop one.


After this latest update, with Stanley making the "backstabbing is my style" comment, I find myself a lot more willing to believe that he was behind this, or, at least, influenced by Wanda to do it. She might have arranged it herself as well, thinking it was Stanly's fate to rule the side so she better hurry it along.

I am less likely to think it was Charlie because it's been shown that, upon decryption, units break all existing contracts. Therefore, it's likely that some of the other gobwins and hobs would have mentioned this already.

It also allows a narrative conflict. Vurp was the very last living allied unit of GK that knows the truth. He now works for Charlie. Charlie gets the info from Vurp and then uses it to break up the alliances Parson is trying to create. No one would trust someone that was proven to be a backstabber of that level.

I think that would work as a good plot point. I'm sure Vurp is going to be important, sooner or later.

I doubt this would be a big reveal. The other sides already consider Stanley a usurper. Ansom says already in book 1 he became "overlord by regicide" (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/34). Vinnie's comment "Well, kinda" implies that regicide by proxy isn't the only way to do this, or otherwise he wouldn't point out it's not exactly the definition.

Morty
2014-11-24, 06:49 PM
Caesar is the current heir, but Don is popping a new royal heir (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/26). That was on turn 54 after BoGK, the battle for Spacerock started on turn 72, the battle with Jillian was I think 4 turns later, and now the truce is for 30 days. So the truce ends on day 105 after BfGK, and the heir will be pooped on day 115 if a heir takes 60 turns to pop one.


It's possible that after all the losses and setbacks Transylvito has suffered, they may not have enough Schmuckers to pop an heir anymore.

NEO|Phyte
2014-11-24, 06:54 PM
Do we know if popping an heir takes money? I know designating one does, but given the massive turn cost of manually popping on, adding cash to the equation seems excessive.

tomaO2
2014-11-24, 06:59 PM
I doubt this would be a big reveal. The other sides already consider Stanley a usurper. Ansom says already in book 1 he became "overlord by regicide" (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/34). Vinnie's comment "Well, kinda" implies that regicide by proxy isn't the only way to do this, or otherwise he wouldn't point out it's not exactly the definition.

The hobs and gobwins committed the regicide. Stanley was simply the one that benefited when he made them become allied again. There is still plausible deniability that Stan was the cause of the whole thing though. Even Sizemore didn't outright state that he believed that Stanley was the cause of Saline's death. Having it confirmed will almost certainly cause ripple effects, or else why have this set up to begin with?

It might not be other nations either. Maybe Charlie messages Sizemore and this bit of info becomes the last straw and causes him to defect. He really hates his kingdom right now, so I could see him being pushed into turning traitor.

Divayth Fyr
2014-11-24, 07:20 PM
Do we know if popping an heir takes money? I know designating one does, but given the massive turn cost of manually popping on, adding cash to the equation seems excessive.
The Erf wiki notes that you can either spend a lot of turns and pop a heir or spend a lot of shmuckers and designate one - which fits Jetstone being able to work on popping a new heir but unable to pay for designating Tramennis.

Porthos
2014-11-25, 01:37 AM
Update time:

Well.

Well, well, well.

What started out fairly mundane, though funny, turns out to be VERY interesting.

Who would have seen THAT possibity coming?

Winterwind
2014-11-25, 02:47 AM
Huh.

Now why would the Great Minds be withholding that sort of information from Parson? While I can think of a few possible explanations, only one of them seems likely and satisfying in any measure to me - that being that they intend to use Parson to defeat Charlie, but afterwards turn against Gobwin Knob and dismantle Stanley and/or Wanda as well. Scary.

The interactions between Parson and Maggie when they are not talking about secrets and strategies, on the other hand, are as charming, adorable and a little bit sad as always.

Porthos
2014-11-25, 03:26 AM
Something just twigged after reading this update:

Has it ever been commented on just how similar Archons are to Decrypted units when it comes to how they view their, for the lack of a better word, masters? It probably has but since I don't religiously read these threads, I don't recall it coming up before.

It was the thinkamancy link that made me realize what was probably blidingly obvious to others (in that they are very similar). Makes me wonder if the thinkamancy link is what causes that love/obsession/whatever.

Perhaps not completely as the decrypted Archons still had feelings for Charlie, IIRC. But I do wonder if that is a large part of it.

Winterwind
2014-11-25, 05:22 AM
Something just twigged after reading this update:

Has it ever been commented on just how similar Archons are to Decrypted units when it comes to how they view their, for the lack of a better word, masters? It probably has but since I don't religiously read these threads, I don't recall it coming up before.

It was the thinkamancy link that made me realize what was probably blidingly obvious to others (in that they are very similar). Makes me wonder if the thinkamancy link is what causes that love/obsession/whatever.

Perhaps not completely as the decrypted Archons still had feelings for Charlie, IIRC. But I do wonder if that is a large part of it.Well, it's clear in any case that something about Arkentools makes the units linked to them - dwagons for the 'hammer, Archons for the 'dish, Decrypted for the 'pliers - (almost) unerringly loyal to the person attuned to the respective tool. Whether that's the thinkamancy strings Maggie is talking about in the latest update or not is probably of minor importance - severing that thinkamancy, if she is right, would destroy the attunement, thus ending the blind loyalty regardless of which magical effect of the 'tools exactly is causing it (though, as you say, some affection may remain).

I find it curious that the Arkenshoes seem to not have had any type of unit tied to it - that's unique amongst the 'tools we know about thus far. Maybe there was such a unit type, and Judy just never found out what those were and how to tame or create them...

HandofShadows
2014-11-25, 07:11 AM
I think the Arkenhammer might be a little different than the Pliers and Dish. It tames Dwagons rather than is involved in their creation. So it may as less vulnerable to have it's powers turned off. We actually already knew that the Dycrpted could break away as we saw it in Book 2. Wanda is actually aware of the fact as well.

Wild Speculation I wonder if the person that is going to get the Arkenshoes is Jillian?

Landis963
2014-11-25, 07:47 AM
I think the Arkenhammer might be a little different than the Pliers and Dish. It tames Dwagons rather than is involved in their creation. So it may as less vulnerable to have it's powers turned off. We actually already knew that the Dycrpted could break away as we saw it in Book 2. Wanda is actually aware of the fact as well.

Wild Speculation I wonder if the person that is going to get the Arkenshoes is Jillian?

The Arkenshoes are, as far as we know, gone from Erfworld. Overlady Judy clicked her heels and went home.

HandofShadows
2014-11-25, 08:51 AM
The Arkenshoes are, as far as we know, gone from Erfworld. Overlady Judy clicked her heels and went home.

But did they STAY there though? Think a moment to the spell that could send Parson home. The only thing it does is break the Ultimate Warlord Spell keeping Parson in Erfworld. After the shoes took Judy home, they may have been forced to return to Erfworld. Of maybe Judy figured out a way to send them back. It's just a wild guess though. :)

Winterwind
2014-11-25, 09:09 AM
But did they STAY there though? Think a moment to the spell that could send Parson home. The only thing it does is break the Ultimate Warlord Spell keeping Parson in Erfworld. After the shoes took Judy home, they may have been forced to return to Erfworld. Of maybe Judy figured out a way to send them back. It's just a wild guess though. :) Well, in the actual Wizard of Oz books, the shoes slipped off Dorothy's feet while transporting her back home - which did not interrupt her being transported back home, mind - and dropped down to Oz again (or more accurately, into the Deadly Desert). I would be immensely surprised if anything happened that was not Judy losing the Arkenshoes while returning home, with the 'shoes themselves returning to Erfworld.

Kornaki
2014-11-25, 09:22 AM
The Arkenshoes are, as far as we know, gone from Erfworld. Overlady Judy clicked her heels and went home.

It seems plausible that the shoes remain somewhere on Erfworld though.

They're probably associated with munchkins or something similar.

halfeye
2014-11-25, 09:34 AM
The magic to break the link would be turnamancy wouldn't it? Maybe it wasn't Jillian that Charlie was mainly interested in protecting?

HandofShadows
2014-11-25, 11:27 AM
Well, in the actual Wizard of Oz books, the shoes slipped off Dorothy's feet while transporting her back home - which did not interrupt her being transported back home, mind - and dropped down to Oz again (or more accurately, into the Deadly Desert). I would be immensely surprised if anything happened that was not Judy losing the Arkenshoes while returning home, with the 'shoes themselves returning to Erfworld.

Ok, I DID remember that correctly then. Wasn't sure about the shoes dropping off when Dororthy went back home. :smallbiggrin:

HalfTangible
2014-11-25, 01:44 PM
Huh.

Now why would the Great Minds be withholding that sort of information from Parson? While I can think of a few possible explanations, only one of them seems likely and satisfying in any measure to me - that being that they intend to use Parson to defeat Charlie, but afterwards turn against Gobwin Knob and dismantle Stanley and/or Wanda as well. Scary.

The interactions between Parson and Maggie when they are not talking about secrets and strategies, on the other hand, are as charming, adorable and a little bit sad as always.

The Thinkamancers probably judged that the information wasn't actionable, and revealed too much about how Thinkamancy works to be worth it. It's also possible that only Maggie knows about how the links can be severed, and that the information she claims the Thinkamancers are keeping from him is how Thinkamancy itself works, which we've already established they do so they have a trick up their sleeve at all times.

Lentrax
2014-11-25, 02:27 PM
I think the Arkenhammer might be a little different than the Pliers and Dish. It tames Dwagons rather than is involved in their creation. So it may as less vulnerable to have it's powers turned off. We actually already knew that the Dycrpted could break away as we saw it in Book 2. Wanda is actually aware of the fact as well.

Wild Speculation I wonder if the person that is going to get the Arkenshoes is Jillian?

I hope Jillian doesn't end up with them. I don't want to see what she would even try to do with unlimited move. I believe the shoes do not bestow their effect on any other unit besides the wearer, right? Cause if it did and she decided to stack up some gwiffons and go after Ansom...

Killer Angel
2014-11-25, 02:35 PM
I hope Jillian doesn't end up with them. I don't want to see what she would even try to do with unlimited move. I believe the shoes do not bestow their effect on any other unit besides the wearer, right? Cause if it did and she decided to stack up some gwiffons and go after Ansom...

the effects of an attuned arkentool are exceptional and beyond the standard level of power... so (for the shoes) they could easily apply to the whole stack the wearer is in. We don't know.

Welf
2014-11-25, 04:10 PM
The hobs and gobwins committed the regicide. Stanley was simply the one that benefited when he made them become allied again. There is still plausible deniability that Stan was the cause of the whole thing though. Even Sizemore didn't outright state that he believed that Stanley was the cause of Saline's death. Having it confirmed will almost certainly cause ripple effects, or else why have this set up to begin with?

It might not be other nations either. Maybe Charlie messages Sizemore and this bit of info becomes the last straw and causes him to defect. He really hates his kingdom right now, so I could see him being pushed into turning traitor.

They may go for the theme of mind control. Very early in the summer updates there was update with Vurp and Parson and it ended with Vurp feeling loyalty for Parson. Charley can and does ruthless use his thinkamancy to alter people's loyalties and mind. Parson does inspire people to follow him out of their own decision. Maybe they will find out if loyalty and trust are simple stats or if they are more. And from Vurp's last look he seems to have regrets about the change of alliance.

For Sizemore is may mean something, but I think he already guessed it. And he doesn't really have anywhere to go; Gobwin Knob is his home and even in the Magic Kingdom Janis wants him to stay with Parson.


But did they STAY there though? Think a moment to the spell that could send Parson home. The only thing it does is break the Ultimate Warlord Spell keeping Parson in Erfworld. After the shoes took Judy home, they may have been forced to return to Erfworld. Of maybe Judy figured out a way to send them back. It's just a wild guess though. :)


I think they are still in Earthworld. This would mean that only Parson is able to bring them back with the carnymancy scroll. Maybe he will attune and bring them back.

Aquillion
2014-11-25, 08:21 PM
One common theory I've seen with the Arkenshoes is that Parson will use the scroll to go back to earth, find the Arkenshoes, and use them to return to Erfworld, which he now considers his "home."

Legato Endless
2014-11-25, 08:57 PM
the effects of an attuned arkentool are exceptional and beyond the standard level of power... so (for the shoes) they could easily apply to the whole stack the wearer is in. We don't know.

That doesn't actually like much of an upgrade though. Lone assassin to strike team is nice, but not a terrible game changer. Maybe with mastery you can move all forces under your command in the hex? Teleporting an army seems about on par with decryption. Requiring some preparation to maximize effectiveness, but a total game breaker once the conditions are fulfilled. And like decryption, the set up is fragile enough to lose everything if you get careless.



They may go for the theme of mind control. Very early in the summer updates there was update with Vurp and Parson and it ended with Vurp feeling loyalty for Parson. Charley can and does ruthless use his thinkamancy to alter people's loyalties and mind.

True, but that's hardly something he has a monopoly on. Every turnamancer trades in at least the former, and pretty much every Ruler whether they like it or not uses some form of mind control. Point being, it was already essentially a part of the story, merely one of a dozen subsystems that keep everyone in line.


Well, in the actual Wizard of Oz books, the shoes slipped off Dorothy's feet while transporting her back home - which did not interrupt her being transported back home, mind - and dropped down to Oz again (or more accurately, into the Deadly Desert). I would be immensely surprised if anything happened that was not Judy losing the Arkenshoes while returning home, with the 'shoes themselves returning to Erfworld.

Agreed. Between the literary allusion and the fact we know now it takes a magical effect for Parson merely to stay in Erfworld, it seems pretty likely we'll be seeing the shoes showing up in Erfworld again. Another attuned side entering the conflict at some point feels right, considering the widening scope book 3 has. Once this war spreads far enough, I imagine we'll be seeing Digdoug again. Someone is trying to defeat Charlie? Why yes we'd love to ally with Gobwin Knob.



"It looks lovely Lord. *looks at pillows* And quite comfortable, I'd imagine."
"You own it all, by right of conquest, Lord. You oughtn't to be afraid to handle what is yours."

Look Maggie, this is all very well and entertaining...but this is still too subtle. :smallamused: That fact that you gave him copious amounts of alcohol also seems to working at cross purposes here.

EnragedFilia
2014-11-25, 09:48 PM
So Parson has heard of Death Note, or at least his shirt has. The manga was originally serialized in 2003-2006, and the anime broadcast 2006-2007 (and as I remember it, the manga was pretty obscure in America before the anime got popular). When exactly did Erfworld start, again? And does that make the reference at least somewhat anachronistic?

Rob Roy
2014-11-25, 10:07 PM
So Parson has heard of Death Note, or at least his shirt has. The manga was originally serialized in 2003-2006, and the anime broadcast 2006-2007 (and as I remember it, the manga was pretty obscure in America before the anime got popular). When exactly did Erfworld start, again? And does that make the reference at least somewhat anachronistic?

Parson got sent to Erfworld in the present day, minus however long he's been in Erfworld. Otherwise his earlier references to more recent Internet memes would be anachronistic.

Mando Knight
2014-11-25, 10:10 PM
So Parson has heard of Death Note, or at least his shirt has. The manga was originally serialized in 2003-2006, and the anime broadcast 2006-2007 (and as I remember it, the manga was pretty obscure in America before the anime got popular). When exactly did Erfworld start, again? And does that make the reference at least somewhat anachronistic?

I suspect the Earthworld he left is stuck in Comic Book Time™, and thus will always have some slightly-out-of-date references and such.

That said, Erfworld was somewhere in the middle of Book 1 when I joined in late 2007, IIRC.

Porthos
2014-11-25, 11:08 PM
It's past 24 hours so stripping spoiler bars...


I suspect the Earthworld he left is stuck in Comic Book Time™, and thus will always have some slightly-out-of-date references and such.

That said, Erfworld was somewhere in the middle of Book 1 when I joined in late 2007, IIRC.

Erfworld launched on GitP Dec 7th, 2006 according to Wikipedia.