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Porthos
2015-01-27, 03:43 PM
So what happened to the double eagle (the bird)? It may have been a double-edged sword but they would not have won the Battle of the Storm Hex without it (once Forecastle figured out how to properly use it, that is).

Reading between the lines....


Then, out of sheer dumb luck, he had managed to discover an unclaimed capital site on his way home.

I would reckon that it survived. :smallwink:

Lizard Lord
2015-01-27, 03:56 PM
Reading between the lines....



I would reckon that it survived. :smallwink:

Well, okay. Then what? I was just wondering why it hasn't really been mentioned.

Killer Angel
2015-01-27, 04:39 PM
I love this bittersweet ending. I think this might be my favorite Erfworld story.

It's only a part of the ending. We still have to wait Epilogue two.

And apparently, you can defect your side and not be disbanded. Special circumstances, i believe.

Lethologica
2015-01-27, 05:31 PM
It's only a part of the ending. We still have to wait Epilogue two.

And apparently, you can defect your side and not be disbanded. Special circumstances, i believe.
It's special circumstances for a defector to be disbanded, I think--specifically, being under a Loyalty spell. (https://wiki.erfworld.com/Disband) I'm probably forgetting something, though.

HalfTangible
2015-01-27, 05:50 PM
It's only a part of the ending. We still have to wait Epilogue two.

And apparently, you can defect your side and not be disbanded. Special circumstances, i believe.

I don't see why not =/ i mean deliberate defection hasn't really been covered as of yet.

EnragedFilia
2015-01-27, 06:15 PM
"Defection" has been covered as "voluntary turning" (namely what Orwell, the lookamancer from FAQ did by turning to Haffaton). Leaving one's side in order to found a new one would differ only insofar as it involves creating a side at the same time as turning to it.

And personally, I initially read Cat's words during dinner from Forecastle's perspective and still didn't think it was particularly hurtful. Maybe I'm making inaccurate assumptions about his personality or something?

slayerx
2015-01-27, 08:27 PM
"Defection" has been covered as "voluntary turning" (namely what Orwell, the lookamancer from FAQ did by turning to Haffaton). Leaving one's side in order to found a new one would differ only insofar as it involves creating a side at the same time as turning to it.

And personally, I initially read Cat's words during dinner from Forecastle's perspective and still didn't think it was particularly hurtful. Maybe I'm making inaccurate assumptions about his personality or something?

Well you do have to imagine that forecastle would have some not so fond memories about his time on that ship. The double eagle may have saved his butt in the end, but taming the eagle led to getting keel-hauled, being treated like a prisoner, the scorn of the men, and ultimately is the high mark of seaworld epic tale of the bubbling land lubber. Simply put, that is one of them moments he might rather forget about, and its painful to hear her bring it up.

Lethologica
2015-01-27, 11:54 PM
It's the bit about loving to climb around the mainmast with a bucket, which is a lie, and also the sneering attitude, that hurt Forecastle. They represent what he sees--at that point--as Cat's betrayal.

Radar
2015-01-28, 05:25 AM
Considering everything we learned about Luckamancy in general and Double Eagles in particular, do you think Parson's Mathamancy artifact can calculate Luckamancy costs of varied blessings and curses? The potential is quite interesting to ponder.

ObadiahtheSlim
2015-01-28, 09:43 AM
Considering everything we learned about Luckamancy in general and Double Eagles in particular, do you think Parson's Mathamancy artifact can calculate Luckamancy costs of varied blessings and curses? The potential is quite interesting to ponder.

Luckamancy + Mathamancy seem to be a very potent combo. Mathamancy seems to give you enough insight to how the dice rolls work that you can optimally use Luckamancy to adjust the rolls.

slayerx
2015-01-28, 10:01 AM
Luckamancy + Mathamancy seem to be a very potent combo. Mathamancy seems to give you enough insight to how the dice rolls work that you can optimally use Luckamancy to adjust the rolls.

Parson and Sizemore think its good too (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/60)
You use mathamncy to figure out the battles where you'll need that extra luck the most.

Killer Angel
2015-01-29, 07:09 AM
Makes sense. In every GdR / boardgame / wargame / cardgame, and so on, there are nasty combos that give you the edge, and players try to discover them and exploit them. For Erfworld it's the same: some things works together better then other ones.

Radar
2015-01-29, 01:08 PM
Not just in games though. Look at our reality and ponder the thought: aren't all technologies ever devised also exploits of our universe's rules? Science is just reverse-engeneering (or decompiling) of those rules. The only difference is, when scientists find something really weird they say it's a feature and not a bug.

TechnoWarforged
2015-01-29, 01:31 PM
So back to the story: Any chance that Eagle Keys turned into the now RightShoring?

Rogar Demonblud
2015-01-29, 05:25 PM
Nah. Eagle Keys is a bunch of islands. Rightshoring might be another colony, though.

EnragedFilia
2015-01-29, 05:28 PM
Not just in games though. Look at our reality and ponder the thought: aren't all technologies ever devised also exploits of our universe's rules? Science is just reverse-engeneering (or decompiling) of those rules. The only difference is, when scientists find something really weird they say it's a feature and not a bug.

Well, yeah, usually. But sometimes calling it a bug is just funnier (http://captionsearch.com/pix/573swz17o.jpg).

HandofShadows
2015-01-30, 10:20 AM
Well, yeah, usually. But sometimes calling it a bug is just funnier (http://captionsearch.com/pix/573swz17o.jpg).

Cute trick, but that does follow the laws of physics.

Kornaki
2015-01-30, 11:27 AM
Cute trick, but that does follow the laws of physics.

That was the whole point of the post, that it follows the laws of physics but is still crazy that it works.

Porthos
2015-02-03, 12:35 AM
*DING* .... *DING*
*DING* .... *DING*
*DING* .... *DING*

New Forecastle up.

That bit about the 'terrible implications' for a Warlord using Luckamancy Reserve (from his point of view, at least) was interesting, to say the least. His unease with the concept shines through as a sunny day. Might be a reason why he's not particularly sad to see that double eagles are not getting tamed regularly upon ships.

The Glyphstone
2015-02-03, 12:48 AM
Yeah. For Titan-worshippers, that's got be pretty darn close to heresy, or at least apostasy. Can you imagine how Wanda would react to something like this?

HandofShadows
2015-02-03, 03:04 AM
Yeah. For Titan-worshippers, that's got be pretty darn close to heresy, or at least apostasy. Can you imagine how Wanda would react to something like this?


Not sure she would have a problem actually. Manipulating luck is not going to change fate.

EnragedFilia
2015-02-03, 03:30 AM
Not sure she would have a problem actually. Manipulating luck is not going to change fate.

From the perspective of a simple soldier, sailor, or non-caster warlord, that distinction is probably less than relevant. As far as they seem to be concerned, luck and fate are both manifestations of the Titans' will, which means luckamancy in general is tantamount to intruding upon the divine domain. I can only presume that Seaworld has somehow never had contact with any sort of caster or they might have at least tried to teach their warlords how these things work. On the other hand, Erfworlders not bothering to attempt to figure out how their own world works (at least outside the magic kingdom and Charlie) has been a fairly major plot point for a while now.

Killer Angel
2015-02-03, 07:15 AM
I really, really like this update.
I find it's so much better to learn about the battle in this way, rather then living it on "live-stream".

Radar
2015-02-03, 07:24 AM
I think I might have a theory on why Erfworlders are very unlikely to ever pursue knowledge and propose any innovations: unlike us, they pop as adults with all necessary knowledge for their position and function. They never need to learn in order to live and fulfill their purpose. We on the other hand spend many years learning everything: walking, talking, counting, reasoning and so on and so forth. We need to have curiosity as one of our base instincts, whereas Erforlders don't. We also develop learning skills by training and after years of using them, learning and researching things can easily become a habit.

I think we found ourselves a world, where medieval stasis would be plausible.

Bird
2015-02-03, 07:43 AM
I really, really like this update.
I find it's so much better to learn about the battle in this way, rather then living it on "live-stream".
Interesting--I was curious how folks would react to the choice to tell this story via flashback. On the one hand, it saps all the urgency out of the tale, because we know (generally) how it'll turn out. On the other hand, the telling is textured by the time Forecastle has had to think about his story--the guilt he's developed, for instance--and by the fact that he's got an audience. We as readers are put in the position of listening to him instead of living through him.

The choice to flash back also allows Rob to elide certain details, because Forecastle wouldn't bother to recount them. Description of setting, for instance, gets cut down. Despite having to spend time on the framing device of what's going on in the present with the captains, the story gets, in some senses, more compact.

EnragedFilia
2015-02-03, 01:49 PM
I think I might have a theory on why Erfworlders are very unlikely to ever pursue knowledge and propose any innovations: unlike us, they pop as adults with all necessary knowledge for their position and function. They never need to learn in order to live and fulfill their purpose. We on the other hand spend many years learning everything: walking, talking, counting, reasoning and so on and so forth. We need to have curiosity as one of our base instincts, whereas Erforlders don't. We also develop learning skills by training and after years of using them, learning and researching things can easily become a habit.

I think we found ourselves a world, where medieval stasis would be plausible.

The exception to that paradigm would seem to be casters, who do develop new powers as they level as well as a better understanding of how their magic domain works and the part that it plays in the mechanics of the world. Certain rulers or warlords or whatever such as Crush who happen to be interested in reading about far-flung or long-dead sides and how they might have stumbled upon some obscure mechanic or tricky loophole or other might also develop that measure of curiosity. For that matter, there might just be something unusual about Crush in the first place that gave him the curiosity to interest him in reading as much as he did. Perhaps "curiosity" is some sort of invisible special?

Bird
2015-02-03, 02:28 PM
I like Radar's theory--popping knowing essentially everything you have to know could easily lead to intellectual lassitude.

I'd include Sizemore in the list of characters with curiosity: he likes to study magic outside of his own discipline, not for the power, but because it's interesting to him.

Ace & Jack, too, in a "isn't it strange and cool what Parson thinks of" kind of way. (Maybe Maggie, also, though I can't recall her ever trying to innovate on her own.)

Forecastle, of course--recall him reading up on sea creatures, or taking a genuine interest in figuring out how seafaring works. In his case, though, his curiosity had as much to do with necessity & a lack of options as anything else.

Trammenis shows signs of curiosity, too. Actually, I don't think that the number of characters with it undercuts Radar's point--a bunch of characters are curious either because they've been influenced by Parson, or because Rob is trying to underline one of the core themes of the comic.

Landis963
2015-02-03, 04:35 PM
I like Radar's theory--popping knowing essentially everything you have to know could easily lead to intellectual lassitude.

I'd include Sizemore in the list of characters with curiosity: he likes to study magic outside of his own discipline, not for the power, but because it's interesting to him.

Ace & Jack, too, in a "isn't it strange and cool what Parson thinks of" kind of way. (Maybe Maggie, also, though I can't recall her ever trying to innovate on her own.)

Forecastle, of course--recall him reading up on sea creatures, or taking a genuine interest in figuring out how seafaring works. In his case, though, his curiosity had as much to do with necessity & a lack of options as anything else.

Trammenis shows signs of curiosity, too. Actually, I don't think that the number of characters with it undercuts Radar's point--a bunch of characters are curious either because they've been influenced by Parson, or because Rob is trying to underline one of the core themes of the comic.

Also, 5/6 of those characters are or were misfits in their sides. Sizemore was "the turd guy," Ace was Holly Shortcake's poor substitute, Forecastle was a landlubber in a seafaring side, Tramennis was the son Slately chose to spend his lies on, Jack was the knave of Faq. Only Maggie appears not to be a misfit in the way Ace or Sizemore were, and surprise surprise, she's the one who doesn't really innovate on her own.

So the roster of proven innovators doesn't diminish Radar's point at all. Enhances it, really.

EnragedFilia
2015-02-03, 05:00 PM
Also, 5/6 of those characters are or were misfits in their sides. Sizemore was "the turd guy," Ace was Holly Shortcake's poor substitute, Forecastle was a landlubber in a seafaring side, Tramennis was the son Slately chose to spend his lies on, Jack was the knave of Faq. Only Maggie appears not to be a misfit in the way Ace or Sizemore were, and surprise surprise, she's the one who doesn't really innovate on her own.

So the roster of proven innovators doesn't diminish Radar's point at all. Enhances it, really.

Several of the other potential examples are less clear-cut, mostly because we've seen very little regarding the backstory of Janis, Marie, Isaac (and potentially any of the other Great Minds who support the whole conspiracy thing), Olive, and most of all Charlie. If we consider only non-casters, however, it does seem that the will to attain insights into the world's mechanics is both rare and associated with being in a position regarded as inferior by one's own side.

Landis963
2015-02-03, 05:43 PM
Several of the other potential examples are less clear-cut, mostly because we've seen very little regarding the backstory of Janis, Marie, Isaac (and potentially any of the other Great Minds who support the whole conspiracy thing), Olive, and most of all Charlie. If we consider only non-casters, however, it does seem that the will to attain insights into the world's mechanics is both rare and associated with being in a position regarded as inferior by one's own side.

Charlie and Marie are both casters whose roles are stigmatized. Olive is a Carnymancer's daughter and one with direct contact with someone from Stupidworld. Janis and the GMs (Sounds like a good name for a parody heavy mithril band) are just using the innovators as catspaws.

Legato Endless
2015-02-03, 06:02 PM
Several of the other potential examples are less clear-cut, mostly because we've seen very little regarding the backstory of Janis, Marie, Isaac (and potentially any of the other Great Minds who support the whole conspiracy thing), Olive, and most of all Charlie.

Most casters are curious (hence the constant debates that rage across the Magic Kingdom), but they aren't true innovators either. At best they independently develop a signature style. Isaac is considered something of an eccentricity among even his fellow minds for strange dalliances into actual experimentation.


Charlie and Marie are both casters whose roles are stigmatized. Olive is a Carnymancer's daughter and one with direct contact with someone from Stupidworld. Janis and the GMs (Sounds like a good name for a parody heavy mithril band) are just using the innovators as catspaws.

I don't think Marie counts barring new evidence, she seems to be more of Janis' ilk. What's briefly been alluded seems to be more of a woman with something to prove. She's a revolutionary, but we haven't seen any real evidence to innovation yet. Wishing to end war on Erf isn't a unique vision, and the primary tool of the conspiracy was invented by someone else.

halfeye
2015-02-04, 07:59 AM
I don't think Marie counts barring new evidence, she seems to be more of Janis' ilk. What's briefly been alluded seems to be more of a woman with something to prove. She's a revolutionary, but we haven't seen any real evidence to innovation yet. Wishing to end war on Erf isn't a unique vision, and the primary tool of the conspiracy was invented by someone else.
She's from Faq, we know that from the text updates. We know a lot more about her than Janis. I don't remember what she actually said in the text updates, but I think she was backing Wanda and Jillian.

Welf
2015-02-04, 01:35 PM
*DING* .... *DING*
*DING* .... *DING*
*DING* .... *DING*

New Forecastle up.

That bit about the 'terrible implications' for a Warlord using Luckamancy Reserve (from his point of view, at least) was interesting, to say the least. His unease with the concept shines through as a sunny day. Might be a reason why he's not particularly sad to see that double eagles are not getting tamed regularly upon ships.

I think he isn't really uneasy by the concept of luckamancy itself, but what it means as leader. He has to let soldiers die he can svae, and even has to choose some of them as sacrifices to get an latter advantage. Every commander has to make hard decisions and send some troops into a certain death sometimes, but if you use luckamancy, there isn#t even a fighting chance left for them. From an intellectual point it is better to maximize the number of survivors, but then you start thinking of your troops as units and not as people.

ChowGuy
2015-02-04, 09:26 PM
[quote]Also, 5/6 of those characters are or were misfits in their sides. Sizemore was "the turd guy," Ace was Holly Shortcake's poor substitute, Forecastle was a landlubber in a seafaring side, Tramennis was the son Slately chose to spend his lies on, Jack was the knave of Faq. Only Maggie appears not to be a misfit in the way Ace or Sizemore were, and surprise surprise, she's the one who doesn't really innovate on her own.

And on the subject of innovation, let's don't forget [url=http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/53]"the shrewdest thing" Wanda ever new Stanley to do - certainly no innovation there (<sarcasm>)

HalfTangible
2015-02-04, 09:33 PM
And on the subject of innovation, let's don't forget [url=http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/53]"the shrewdest thing" Wanda ever new Stanley to do - certainly no innovation there (<sarcasm>)

1) Why are you crediting Maggie with something Slately did?
2) That's less 'innovative' than a 'good idea'
3) Stanley is a moron. 'The shrewdest thing he's ever done' isn't that high a hurdle to jump.

Aquillion
2015-02-05, 07:14 AM
3) Stanley is a moron. 'The shrewdest thing he's ever done' isn't that high a hurdle to jump.He's smarter than he seems; both based on his internal monologues and his recent conversation with Parson, he has a lot more awareness about what's going on around him than you'd think at first glance.

His problems are that that he's impatient and egotistical, so he frequently overestimates his own abilities and makes mistakes. But all indication is that he really is an effective warlord, even if he's not a particularly competent Overlord. More importantly, though, recent chapters have shown that he is aware of his shortcomings and is trying to improve at them -- that can't be easy for someone with his ego, showing a degree of self-awareness and intelligence that wouldn't be obvious at first glance.

ryuplaneswalker
2015-02-05, 08:25 AM
Stanley is a moron. 'The shrewdest thing he's ever done' isn't that high a hurdle to jump.

Apathy and Stupidity are not the same thing.

Stanley is smart enough to learn names, to be tactical and whatnot.

He just did not -CARE- to do it before Parson showed up.

The Glyphstone
2015-02-05, 02:30 PM
Apathy and Stupidity are not the same thing.

Stanley is smart enough to learn names, to be tactical and whatnot.

He just did not -CARE- to do it before Parson showed up.

Yeah, but he's also dumb enough to promote Warlords from the ranks based on their physical attractiveness. Stanley is shrewd. He is not smart.

MReav
2015-02-05, 02:36 PM
I'd say that Stanley is kind of an Idiot Savant. He's good at what he was popped to do, but aside from flashes of occasional brilliance, he's not that smart. Still, exposure to Parson, whether it's an effect of the spell, an effect of being in proximity of a Stupidworlder, an effect of being in proximity of a tactical/strategic prodigy like Parson, or some combination thereof, he's slowly getting better.

ObadiahtheSlim
2015-02-05, 02:39 PM
Yeah, but he's also dumb enough to promote Warlords from the ranks based on their physical attractiveness. Stanley is shrewd. He is not smart.

But this is a world where signamancy is a real thing. That lantern jaw really means something in Erfworld.

-D-
2015-02-05, 02:46 PM
3) Stanley is a moron. 'The shrewdest thing he's ever done' isn't that high a hurdle to jump.
Stanley isn't a moron. He is simply a manifestation of Peter principle, which state that:


"managers rise to the level of their incompetence."

He got promoted above his capabilities and is suffering. It's obvious what he wants to do - he wants to bust a move and have fun in the battlefield. He isn't the best commander but he is clearly a very competent fighter. Stanley is actually my favorite character by far (second is TrollJack), because he has come such a long way from Book 1. In contrast to Wanda and Jillian which are pretty much same character from before. I think I probably like Wanda the least, despite her having a lot of fan service appeal to me. Wanda and Jillian are very primitive characters, here are some algorithms for how they behave.

Wanda:
Step 1: Is Jillian around? Yes -> goto 3. No -> goto 2.
Step 2: Bitch about Fate. Goto 1.
Step 3: Attempt to turn Jillian (on or to your side). Goto 1.

Jillian:
Step 1: Can you chase after love interest (Wanda/Ansom)? Yes -> goto 2. No -> goto 3.
Step 2: That didn't work. Goto 1.
Step 3: Chase after Stanley, while swearing vengence. Goto 2.

I kinda like Wanda in Book 0 most, ever since then, my empathy for the character is steadily diminishing. I don't like Jillian either, but the way story is set up there seems a lot of room for her to grow, so I'm cautiously optimistic.

HalfTangible
2015-02-05, 02:48 PM
Stanley isn't a moron. He is simply a manifestation of Peter principle, which state that:



He got promoted above his capabilities and is suffering. It's obvious what he wants to do - he wants to bust a move and have fun in the battlefield. He isn't the best commander but he is clearly a very competent fighter. Stanley is actually my favorite character by far (second is TrollJack), because he has come such a long way from Book 1. In contrast to Wanda and Jillian which are pretty much same character from before. I think I probably like Wanda the least, despite her having a lot of fan service appeal to me. Wanda and Jillian are very primitive characters, here are some algorithms for how they behave.

Wanda:
Step 1: Is Jillian around? Yes -> goto 3. No -> goto 2.
Step 2: Bitch about Fate. Goto 1.
Step 3: Attempt to turn Jillian (on or to your side). Goto 1.

Jillian:
Step 1: Can you chase after love interest (Wanda/Ansom)? Yes -> goto 2. No -> goto 3.
Step 2: That didn't work. Goto 1.
Step 3: Chase after Stanley, while swearing vengence. Goto 2.

I kinda like Wanda in Book 0 most, ever since then, my empathy for the character is steadily diminishing. I don't like Jillian either, but the way story is set up there seems a lot of room for her to grow, so I'm cautiously optimistic.

You know that only proves my overall point that the 'shrewdest thing Stanley did as ruler' isn't that high of a hurdle to jump, right? :smallwink::smalltongue:

-D-
2015-02-05, 05:03 PM
You know that only proves my overall point that the 'shrewdest thing Stanley did as ruler' isn't that high of a hurdle to jump, right? :smallwink::smalltongue:
No it doesn't. Having lookamancer/foolamancer was a powerful combo. He was only guy that had a minimap of the battle, not to mention eyebooks are really freaking cool (aside from Charlie hacking it). He isn't a moron, just ill equipped for his current job.

HalfTangible
2015-02-05, 05:09 PM
No it doesn't. Having lookamancer/foolamancer was a powerful combo. He was only guy that had a minimap of the battle, not to mention eyebooks are really freaking cool (aside from Charlie hacking it). He isn't a moron, just ill equipped for his current job.

You specifically stated that Stanley had risen to the level of his incompetence. So yes it does.

It's also the only smart move we've ever seen him make... well okay, we didn't see him make it, but you get the idea.

Legato Endless
2015-02-05, 05:21 PM
But this is a world where signamancy is a real thing. That lantern jaw really means something in Erfworld.

Sure, but that meaning has zero bearing on one's efficacy as a Warlord, otherwise this comic would look very different. So in this particular case, that was indeed a stupid idea.

-D-
2015-02-05, 05:39 PM
You specifically stated that Stanley had risen to the level of his incompetence.
Correct. Note that his level of incompetence is being an Overlord. It's like saying I have risen to level of incompetence of PhD. I might be incompetent to become an acting professor, but I still have a PhD.


It's also the only smart move we've ever seen him make... well okay, we didn't see him make it, but you get the idea.
He successfully annulled all of Ceaser's bonuses with a single move; he ordered his dwagons against battle with Charlescomm and FAQ to throw away enemy riders; he understands Jillian's and Wanda's relationship way better than Parson. Heck, even running away from RCC with Jack was a smart move from his perspectiv. Let's see a spell your subordinate (Wanda) used summoned a giant low level warlord that has no idea how world works and you are couple of turns away from enemy siege. To make matters worse, that same subordinate (Wanda) managed to boop a suggestion spell, allowing captured enemy unit to croak a large part of your dwagon forces. You know a little place in hillside that no one else knows (he has no knowledge of Jillian being queen of FAQ) about.

HalfTangible
2015-02-05, 05:58 PM
Correct. Note that his level of incompetence is being an Overlord. It's like saying I have risen to level of incompetence of PhD. I might be incompetent to become an acting professor, but I still have a PhD.And if you were a doctor without a PhD you'd be called incompetent at your job.[/quote]



He successfully annulled all of Ceaser's bonuses with a single move;Uh, one, no he didn't >.> he knocked Caesar back, he didn't stop any of his bonuses. Two, being a powerful unit does not make him intelligent.

And three, that was probably the Arkenhammer >.>


he ordered his dwagons against battle with Charlescomm and FAQ to throw away enemy riders;A basic tactic that he performed after rushing out in a blind attack against an enemy with an air force, risking both himself and his entire side. Yeah, so very smart of him to get out of a corner he backed himself into for no good reason.

Like Charlie said himself: What does Charlescomm (their enemy at the time) do for a living?

he understands Jillian's and Wanda's relationship way better than Parson.Says who? >.>


Heck, even running away from RCC with Jack was a smart move from his perspectiv.Everything dumb people do seems smart from their perspective. He's smarter than Parson gave him credit for, but he's still dumb.


Let's see a spell your subordinate (Wanda) used summoned a giant low level warlord that has no idea how world works and you are couple of turns away from enemy siege. To make matters worse, that same subordinate (Wanda) managed to boop a suggestion spell, allowing captured enemy unit to croak a large part of your dwagon forces. You know a little place in hillside that no one else knows (he has no knowledge of Jillian being queen of FAQ) about.

He had an entire fleet of dwagons. He could have easily taken the entire link-up and have lookamancy, thinkamancy and foolamancy aplenty. Instead, his plan was to order the casters to break their link (without specifying why, meaning there was no guarantee he'd get his foolamancer) and to leave the city with one of his five casters.

Also, he destroyed Faq hundreds of turns ago, iirc. what if somebody else had found Faq in the meantime? It's not exactly likely, sure, but not impossible either.

-D-
2015-02-05, 06:51 PM
And if you were a doctor without a PhD you'd be called incompetent at your job.
I'm telling you getting from piker to overlord takes skill. Stanley is no genius, but he ain't moron, either.


he knocked Caesar back Yes, with a move that he learned an knew how to apply.


Two, being a powerful unit does not make him intelligent.
He rose from piker to warlord to overlord. A moron couldn't achieve those things.


Says who? >.>
Parson wasn't even aware that Wanda Jillian are lovers. Parson doesn't read people too well.



A basic tactic that he performed after rushing out in a blind attack against an enemy with an air force, risking both himself and his entire side.
We know that he misses battles. He acted irrationally to viewer, but he also buys into the Toolism heavily, so for him it's not a risk. And the thing is, he is right. Fate does exist as an entity.



Everything dumb people do seems smart from their perspective. He's smarter than Parson gave him credit for, but he's still dumb.
It's not from his perspective, it's from what he knows so far, he doesn't have insight of an omniscient reader. He can't see Parson is an intelligent warlord that just doesn't have all knowledge needed. He sees him as another Wanda's spell gone wrong.


He had an entire fleet of dwagons. He could have easily taken the entire link-up and have lookamancy, thinkamancy and foolamancy aplenty.
Nope. He lost most of his fleet when Parson took them to destroy siege. Having a link-up would be super risky and it's highly possible that he'd need foolamancer untethered from link to actually cast veil.


to leave the city with one of his five casters.
Let's see, if there is a battle:
* Wanda is incompetent (2 failed spells)
* Sizemore is dead weight - in aerial battle he literally can't do crap[1].
* Thinkamancer is pointless
* Lookamancer is useful, but dead
* Foolamancer will allow him to rebuild his city silently

[1] I assume that he could order sizemore to MK once they have reached FAQ capital and he could found a new side or change capital to bring Sizemore there for digging.


Also, he destroyed Faq hundreds of turns ago, iirc. what if somebody else had found Faq in the meantime? It's not exactly likely, sure, but not impossible either.
He has a Lookamancer.

HalfTangible
2015-02-05, 07:19 PM
I'm telling you getting from piker to overlord takes skill. Stanley is no genius, but he ain't moron, either. It takes being a tough fighter in combat. Stanley became overlord in large part because he could tame dwagons. It's why he was made heir.


Yes, with a move that he learned an knew how to apply.A move that the hammer granted him. Being strong is not the same thing as being intelligent!


He rose from piker to warlord to overlord. A moron couldn't achieve those things. Why not? Stanley promoted morons to warlord all the time.


Parson wasn't even aware that Wanda Jillian are lovers. Parson doesn't read people too well.Okay, and? He's known Wanda for far longer than Parson has, and interacted with her more.


We know that he misses battles. He acted irrationally to viewer, but he also buys into the Toolism heavily, so for him it's not a risk. And the thing is, he is right. Fate does exist as an entity.

Stanley is fully aware at this point that dumb moves can cost him, even if he's not going to croak. For all he knows, he could've been captured and his whole side disbanded. And don't tell me it couldn't have happened - His main enemy is an air power. Even if Charlie couldn't kill him, he could capture him or wipe out his dwagons.

Heck, the 'fate' that they're all espousing is that the Arkentools are meant to be brought together, meaning that he doesn't need to survive. He knows this because he was fully on board with killing another Attuned - Charlie.


It's not from his perspective, it's from what he knows so far,
No, it's dumb even from that perspective. The best thing to do with what knowledge he has would be to get as many of his casters as he could (leave Wanda to die, fine, whatever) his knights, and run.


he doesn't have insight of an omniscient reader. He can't see Parson is an intelligent warlord that just doesn't have all knowledge needed. He sees him as another Wanda's spell gone wrong.Leaving the city was a good move from that perspective. Doing so in the way he did was dumb, dumb, dumb.


Nope. He lost most of his fleet when Parson took them to destroy siege. Having a link-up would be super risky and it's highly possible that he'd need foolamancer untethered from link to actually cast veil.He still had a massive fleet remaining. Yeah, it was smaller, but it still was a large fleet. Plenty to carry units as rare and valuable as casters.



Let's see, if there is a battle:
* Wanda is incompetent (2 failed spells)
* Sizemore is dead weight - in aerial battle he literally can't do crap[1].
* Thinkamancer is pointless
* Lookamancer is useful, but dead
* Foolamancer will allow him to rebuild his city silently

[1] I assume that he could order sizemore to MK once they have reached FAQ capital and he could found a new side or change capital to bring Sizemore there for digging.2 failed spells does not equal useless. It equals two failed spells.
He's going to build cities. A dirtamancer makes that cheaper and easier.
Thinkamancers are EXTREMELY useful casters.
My question is why he broke the link when he could've kept the link together and just brought them all along.
And breaking the link could potentially have killed him. Or rendered him useless. As it did.

[1]Stanley expected the side to fall in a turn or two, and had no access to his Thinkamancer. Why not leave Sizemore with standing orders to go in there if that was the plan?


He has a Lookamancer.

We also know that he never told another unit in the side about Faq.

-D-
2015-02-05, 08:21 PM
It takes being a tough fighter in combat. Stanley became overlord in large part because he could tame dwagons. It's why he was made heir.
True, but it still doesn't undermine the fact that he isn't as dumb as you show him to be. I think he became a warlord, before he acquired the hammer.


A move that the hammer granted him. Being strong is not the same thing as being intelligent!
He did figure out that hammer could do it.


Why not? Stanley promoted morons to warlord all the time.
So? This is a world where Signamancy is actually a thing and he was led by that ideal, the most handsome warlord is chief warlord.


Okay, and? He's known Wanda for far longer than Parson has, and interacted with her more.
True, but Wanda is closer to Parson than to the Tool. Wanda in books spent a lot more time consulting with Parson than talking with Stanley.


Stanley is fully aware at this point that dumb moves can cost him, even if he's not going to croak. For all he knows, he could've been captured and his whole side disbanded. And don't tell me it couldn't have happened - His main enemy is an air power. Even if Charlie couldn't kill him, he could capture him or wipe out his dwagons.
I doubt it. Both he and Wanda are a bit delusional, when it comes to Fate and their survival.


Heck, the 'fate' that they're all espousing is that the Arkentools are meant to be brought together, meaning that he doesn't need to survive. He knows this because he was fully on board with killing another Attuned - Charlie.
Well, he does feel conflicted about it, but decides that Hamster can achieve it.


Leaving the city was a good move from that perspective. Doing so in the way he did was dumb, dumb, dumb.
Leaving the city was a smart move, he just didn't think much through. My point is to show that he isn't a complete moron. He acts impulsive and irrational a lot, but generally isn't total idiot as you depict him.


He still had a massive fleet remaining. Yeah, it was smaller, but it still was a large fleet. Plenty to carry units as rare and valuable as casters.
He didn't have a massive fleet. He had about 30 dwagons. We don't know if he planned to reroute them through a portal. It's a possibility. He could have discarded them, because he was just pissed at all of them.


2 failed spells does not equal useless. It equals two failed spells.
She was also rendered catatonic afterwards.


My question is why he broke the link when he could've kept the link together and just brought them all along.
We see dwagons carry two passengers at most. Trimancer can't fit on a dwagon. Trimancer also can't cast veil. Lots of reasons why you wouldn't carry them.


Stanley expected the side to fall in a turn or two, and had no access to his Thinkamancer. Why not leave Sizemore with standing orders to go in there if that was the plan?
Eh? The fact that Thinkamancer is alive is enough for him to use her to communicate. As for not leaving Sizemore with such and such orders. Plethora of reasons. He isn't smart enough to think things that far ahead; he's pissed at Sizemore; he wanted to reroute them via MK and having useless Dirtimancer in a stack of dwagons reduces their combat effectivness. That doesn't make him a moron either. Also plot reasons. If he took all the casters Parson would be SOL.


We also know that he never told another unit in the side about Faq.
As far as you know. He could have told the trimancer to scan the area around Faq. Units in tri-link don't remember everything vividly, and they would only see a remote, abandoned settlement.

slayerx
2015-02-05, 08:59 PM
You do not need to be SMART to be a piker that gets promoted to warlord.
King Saline may have only promoted him because his forces were in the field, they lost their only warlord and he needed to promote one of his units to warlord so they could get a leadership bonus. He may have selected stanley because he had the highest level amongst them, or it might have just been pure luck/fate. Heck he may have just needed andother warlord and couldn't wait for one to pop and so he just picked a piker to promote. Promoting a regular unit to warlord doesn't have to have anything to do with intelligence. Heck that EXACLTY what Parson did during the fight with Jillian and Stanely; he promoted all the freed infantry to knights and one of them to warlord. He didn't factor in intelligence because he was promoting out of necessity. If Stanely can promote idiots to warlord, then Saline can too

As for becoming overlord, again that was the hammer. Stanley found the hammer as warlord, attuned and was able to tame dwagons. THAT earned him Saline's favor and got him promoted to heir. NEVER was it said that Saline thought Stanely to be an intelligent warlord, only that he was a strong warlord. Not to mention he eventually picked up Wanda who started pulling his strings and giving him all sorts of ideas of what he should do... who knows maybe she's the one who croaked Saline and made Stanley into an overlord


So? This is a world where Signamancy is actually a thing and he was led by that ideal, the most handsome warlord is chief warlord.

Handsome =/= smart
That's why wanda refused to promote another.
Ossomer was handsome, but he was all muscle. The smartest jetsone was actually his more modest and smaller brother


We see dwagons carry two passengers at most. Trimancer can't fit on a dwagon.
They don't have to. As we saw with Misty, the linked mancers ARE capable of being physically separated from eachother while still maintaining their link



We know that he misses battles. He acted irrationally to viewer, but he also buys into the Toolism heavily, so for him it's not a risk. And the thing is, he is right. Fate does exist as an entity.

Except that he might not be... Blair and Bell; the former owners of the arkendish and arken shoes. Both were attuned and both croaked. Heck and fate may even be conspiring against Charlie who is also attuned. And Judy was also attuned; she did not croak, but fate did not stop her from leaving the game. What reason do we actually have that Stanely and Wanda are IMMUNE to croaking? The only ones who made that claim are Wanda and Stanley and neither of them are predictamancers. We actually DON'T have anything that claims that Wanda and Stanley are protected by fate.

And y'know if he WERE smart he would have realized that there WAS a way for him to loose badly without croaking... he could be captured. Fate would keep him alive long enough for him to escape, but he would loose EVERYTHING as a result, and would have to start over from scratch. The fool thought fate would help him win, but at most fate will only stop him from craoking; he can still lose, and he can still lose BADLY. Heck that's actually one of the things about fate; when you don't do what fate wants, when you take the hard way you SUFFER. If Fate didn't want Jillian croaked, then that means Stanley charged head long into the HARD WAY of following his fate. The man doesn't really think very hard about what he's doing.



Leaving the city was a smart move, he just didn't think much through. My point is to show that he isn't a complete moron.
Any Moron could have realized they were booped at the battle of Gobwinknob and decide to run away.


Stanely is not very smart; in fact it seems like if he was left to his own wits he would have croaked a LONG time ago. Fate may very well be the only thing that's been keeping him afloat. He led his side to complete ruin, but fate gave wanda the pliers and undid the mistakes of his horrible leadership.

HalfTangible
2015-02-06, 12:56 AM
True, but it still doesn't undermine the fact that he isn't as dumb as you show him to be. I think he became a warlord, before he acquired the hammer.I'm not showing anything. I'm calling him dumb, and pointing to where Erfworld shows he is dumb.


He did figure out that hammer could do it.And? >.>


So? This is a world where Signamancy is actually a thing and he was led by that ideal, the most handsome warlord is chief warlord.Being handsome does not make you a good warlord. In this universe, it means you're good in bed.

... Probably. How signamancy works is a little unclear in specifics.



True, but Wanda is closer to Parson than to the Tool. Wanda in books spent a lot more time consulting with Parson than talking with Stanley.So? Stanley knew Wanda for dozens, maybe hundreds of turns. And Wanda spent almost all of that time manipulating him to quest for the other Arkentools.



I doubt it. Both he and Wanda are a bit delusional, when it comes to Fate and their survival.This seems like it's supposed to be a defense of his actions, but really you just said he's a delusional

Also, he does know it. The whole reason he stayed in Gobwin Knob for as long as he did in the first place is that he knew Fate might just decide to make his life harder, destined Tool or not.



Well, he does feel conflicted about it, but decides that Hamster can achieve it.The point is that he thinks it can be done. It's difficult, sure, but it can be done. Which means he knows that the Arkentool wielders aren't invincible.



Leaving the city was a smart move, he just didn't think much through. My point is to show that he isn't a complete moron. He acts impulsive and irrational a lot, but generally isn't total idiot as you depict him.I'm not saying he's completely brainless - there's a difference between 'moron' and 'brainless'.



He didn't have a massive fleet. He had about 30 dwagons. We don't know if he planned to reroute them through a portal. It's a possibility. Thirty DWAGONS. His fleet was more than large enough to carry more units.


He could have discarded them, because he was just pissed at all of them.
And that is dumb.


She was also rendered catatonic afterwards.Something he didn't actually know, since nobody noticed she was catatonic until they needed to carry her out. And Stanley didn't care enough to check on her or any of the others before flying out. As far as he knew, she was still functional.



We see dwagons carry two passengers at most. Trimancer can't fit on a dwagon. Trimancer also can't cast veil. Lots of reasons why you wouldn't carry them. Okay, that's fair. So why didn't he specifically say something like 'Break your link, I need the Foolamancer', thus ensuring that the Thinkamancer would do all she could to keep Jack alive and sane? He knows that caster links are dangerous, else Wanda and Sizemore wouldn't have feared for his life after he called Misty by her name.


Eh? The fact that Thinkamancer is alive is enough for him to use her to communicate. As for not leaving Sizemore with such and such orders. Plethora of reasons. He isn't smart enough to think things that far ahead; he's pissed at Sizemore; he wanted to reroute them via MK and having useless Dirtimancer in a stack of dwagons reduces their combat effectivness. That doesn't make him a moron either. Also plot reasons. If he took all the casters Parson would be SOL.The Thinkamancer is going to die in a few turns, though. Or get captured. He has no way to guarantee that she'll make it out alive.

Why exactly are you trying to defend Stanley's intelligence by saying he isn't smart enough? :smallwink::smalltongue:

Also, 'for the plot' does not excuse a character from being dumb.


As far as you know. He could have told the trimancer to scan the area around Faq. Units in tri-link don't remember everything vividly, and they would only see a remote, abandoned settlement.

They don't remember how to cast spells vividly. Jack remembered the things he did while under the link. He tells Parson such. Sizemore in a text update comments that the link with Wanda had helped him understand his discipline better. And I know this because Stanley has specifically stated that Faq was his personal secret that nobody else knew about.

-D-
2015-02-06, 01:44 AM
I'm not showing anything. I'm calling him dumb, and pointing to where Erfworld shows he is dumb.
You're calling him a moron. There is a difference.[/QUOTE]


And? >.>
Shows he knows his stuff and that he even play with it, discovering power to turn birds into nuts.


Being handsome does not make you a good warlord. In this universe, it means you're good in bed.
Actually, no. It makes you a good candidate for an inspiring leader. I mean, look at Slately, he's been using signamancy in a similar way, promoting the most manly looking son.


This seems like it's supposed to be a defense of his actions, but really you just said he's a delusional
It means he is misled, not that he is dumb. Being misled means he is naive, not dumb.



The point is that he thinks it can be done. It's difficult, sure, but it can be done. Which means he knows that the Arkentool wielders aren't invincible.
Point is, he knows Hamster can break rules. As in, Parson can enter MK. Tool against Tool without Parson and I'm pretty sure he'd say no. A large part of his internal justification is that Hamster can do anything.



I'm not saying he's completely brainless - there's a difference between 'moron' and 'brainless'.
Moron means retarded. Stanley isn't retarded, but he is not too smart either. I'm arguing he is more par for the course than below average.



And that is dumb.
Only dumb part is not taking Sizemore; but the beauty of proving not a moron, is that I don't have to justify every little action. It's a dumb way to execute an overall smart plan.


Something he didn't actually know, since nobody noticed she was catatonic until they needed to carry her out.
Depends. Him being an Overlord, might give him insight into unit's states, he could have sensed she was incapacitated. Second, she just finished up messing for the second time that day.


Why exactly are you trying to defend Stanley's intelligence by saying he isn't smart enough? :smallwink::smalltongue:
Because I only need to prove he is average, not that he is on par with Omniscient narrator or a Genius like Parson or even Ansom.



You do not need to be SMART to be a piker that gets promoted to warlord.
King Saline may have only promoted him because his forces were in the field, they lost their only warlord and he needed to promote one of his units to warlord so they could get a leadership bonus.
You don't know that. Parson is a somewhat unique case promoting warlords based on situation. An Erfworlder wouldn't upgrade with such abandon.



As for becoming overlord, again that was the hammer. Stanley found the hammer as warlord, attuned and was able to tame dwagons. THAT earned him Saline's favor and got him promoted to heir.

NEVER was it said that Saline thought Stanely to be an intelligent warlord
Stanley was Saline's Chief Warlord. Saline IV promoted him to CW.



Handsome =/= smart
That's why wanda refused to promote another.
Ossomer was handsome, but he was all muscle. The smartest jetsone was actually his more modest and smaller brother
No, but handsome == inspiring. Before Parson joined, you didn't need to have super smart people to win, you needed more effective.



They don't have to. As we saw with Misty, the linked mancers ARE capable of being physically separated from eachother while still maintaining their link
I'm not so sure, we only saw it once, so far. As far we know during night the mancer link dissolves or something.



Except that he might not be... Blair and Bell; the former owners of the arkendish and arken shoes. Both were attuned and both croaked. Heck and fate may even be conspiring against Charlie who is also attuned.
Except Fate might just help those trying to unite Arkentools by any means. If you are fighting against Fate, you are no longer given it's blessing.


We actually DON'T have anything that claims that Wanda and Stanley are protected by fate.
Except, Wanda claims that Fate would prevent Stanley from croaking, and presumably Parson because he is yet to croak Charlie.


And y'know if he WERE smart Stanely is not very smart;
I'm not arguing he is smart. I'm arguing he is about average unit for the setting. I.e. not a moron.


If Fate didn't want Jillian croaked, then that means Stanley charged head long into the HARD WAY of following his fate. The man doesn't really think very hard about what he's doing.
Or Fate wanted to hand Jillian a proverbial gut punch.

HalfTangible
2015-02-06, 02:10 AM
You're calling him a moron. There is a difference.No there ain't.



Shows he knows his **** and that he even play with it, discovering power to turn birds into nuts.Stanley himself in book 2 says that he didn't work to discover anything in the hammer. What he knows, he found through chance.



Actually, no. It makes you a good candidate for an inspiring leader. I mean, look at Slately, he's been using signamancy in a similar way, promoting the most manly looking son.Yeah, and it's a mistake.

"I always picked the wrong son to lead." -Slately

(Also, Ansom was held up as one of the most advanced tactical minds in the known world.)

"Ever since we began questing for the arkentools... every warlord you have promoted from the ranks has fallen in battle, and it's all due to how you're choosing them, milord."


It means he is misled, not that he is dumb.1) If he's constantly, unendingly mislead, how is that a defense of his intelligence?
2) 'Delusional' does not mean 'mislead'. It means 'you're out of touch with reality' not 'someone lied to you'.


Also, he does know it. The whole reason he stayed in Gobwin Knob for as long as he did in the first place is that he knew Fate might just decide to make his life harder, destined Tool or not.This isn't a response to the quote it's put under, as far as I can tell >.> and I can't tell what it might be responding to.


Point is, he knows Hamster can break rules. As in, Parson can enter MK. Tool against Tool without Parson and I'm pretty sure he'd say no. A large part of his internal justification is that he Hamster can do anything.His justification is 'I hate that guy'. His analysis of Charlie's forces is largely based on tactics, not on breaking Charlie away from his attunement.


Moron means retarded. Stanley isn't retarded, but he is not too smart either. I'm arguing he is more par for the course than below average.

'Moron' means 'of exceptionally low intelligence'

'Retarded' is an offensive term for the mentally handicapped.

They are not the same thing. :smallannoyed:


Only dumb part is not taking Sizemore; but the beauty of proving not a moron, is that I don't have to justify every little action. It's a dumb way to execute an overall smart plan.No, but I have a few dozen counts of Stanley doing dumb things. In order to prove that he's not a moron, you need to reasonably prove that the dumb actions he takes are outliers - They're not, they're his standard level of thought - or are all triggered by a reasonable catalyst. Again, they're not.


Depends. Him being an Overlord, might give him insight into unit's states, he could have sensed she was incapacitated. Second, she just finished up messing for the second time that day.Fine.


Because I only need to prove he is average, not that he is on par with Omniscient narrator or a Genius like Parson or even Ansom.

And you're doing it by saying he's not smart enough to think about the consequences of his actions.

Also, I'm proving he's a moron using things he knew at the time. I'm not judging him as an omniscient reader (which we're not anyway, there's a ton in these books we're left in the dark about) I'm judging him from his own perspective in the world.

Bird
2015-02-06, 02:59 AM
Interesting that in book 2, Rob spent a number of updates juxtaposing Stanley against Zhopa, the dumbest guy around (as seems to be a twollish attribute). Whether or not you think Stanley is a moron, I think we can agree his intellect lags behind Parson or any of GK's casters. Rob kept him with Zhopa instead of anybody else so he could shine--we got to see Stanley work things through for himself instead of relying on (or being manipulated by) smarter characters like Wanda, Parson & Maggie.

All that said, Zhopa did have the insight that ultimately prodded Stanley towards saving Parson & Wanda (and thus the side). So he's kind of the unsung hero of GK. But at least Stanley had the presence of mind to (sort of) listen.

Aquillion
2015-02-06, 03:10 AM
Sure, but that meaning has zero bearing on one's efficacy as a Warlord, otherwise this comic would look very different. So in this particular case, that was indeed a stupid idea.Not necessarily. Most of the warlords who we've been told grant a big bonus look, well, Warlord-y -- big, strong, Warlord types.

It doesn't tell you whether a Warlord is clever or competent, but it's not meaningless, either; and given that there's no easy way to tell cleverness or competence, Stanley's decision to promote people who looked like they'd provide the biggest mechanical bonus wasn't necessarily as stupid as it looked at first glance. It might not have been enough -- it wouldn't give them the tactical genius they needed -- but using Signamancy to make decisions about promotions is more like Overlording 101 in Erfworld, in a situation where they needed something more clever or original than that, rather than being something completely idiotic the way it seemed at first. Stanley's problem there was that he was being too traditional, not that he was being completely idiotic.

Of course, Stanley isn't a Signamancer and probably knows little about it, and may have gotten it wrong. But I don't think it's fair to say that it has zero bearing. Ansom, for instance, looks like the model warlord and, mechanically, he is. Stanley's decision to appoint him was actually entirely rational in retrospect -- at that point, they had an overwhelming advantage, so what they needed was a mechanically-competent Warlord who could press that in a traditional, methodological fashion. Someone like Parson (who goes for strange new strategies and takes big risks) makes more sense when you're in trouble and need to roll the dice, but replacing him with Ansom when the side was rich and had a huge army wasn't necessarily a completely unreasonable choice. It makes even more sense when you realize that Stanley kept Parson around as an adviser, so he could in theory get both Parson's cleverness combined with Ansom's traditional skills and mechanical bonuses.

(I mean, things went badly because the narrative requires that they go badly so Parson will have a reason to be involved. But that was mostly because of Charlie's involvement, which Stanley didn't know about; if it hadn't been for that, Ansom would have easily ground the enemy to dust with traditional tactics.)

And if you flip it around and look at what Stanley knows about Parson -- Parson is a strange, weird guy who is ignorant about a lot of basic stuff. He sometimes comes up with dramatic rule-breaking tricks that can win them battles they would otherwise lose, but he tends to do so with high-risk, high-reward strategies that often have a huge cost for his side (the dragon donut, collapsing the city on attackers, the volcano, etc -- his Magic Kingdom run qualifies, too, although that was after Stanley made this choice.) Replacing him with Ansom, who Stanley evaluated as a relatively low-risk, competent warlord who would reliably give good results, made a lot of sense at the time, since they didn't need Parson's risky tricks at that particular point.

-D-
2015-02-06, 03:34 AM
No there ain't.
Moron means a person with mild mental retardation. Colloquially it refers to someone of subpar intelligence.




Yeah, and it's a mistake.

"I always picked the wrong son to lead." -Slately
Correct, however choosing based on Signamancy isn't a completely foolish thing in Erfworld. We know it has some impact. Also choosing Ansom wasn't really a mistake, it's just that Ansom went against a warlord summoned by SPW. I doubt that Trammenis or Ossomer would have fared any better.




1) If he's constantly, unendingly mislead, how is that a defense of his intelligence?
2) 'Delusional' does not mean 'mislead'. It means 'you're out of touch with reality' not 'someone lied to you'.
1) No. Being deceived or tricked has nothing to do with intelligence. Smart, intelligent people were deceived and tricked into joining cults and performing suicides (hell, they are more at risk than dumb people). You probably think they must have not been smart when they joined, but you would be wrong. It's like getting mugged. Being Einstein won't stop it.
2) Delusional essentially means crazy. He is delusional because who knows what Wanda filled his head with other than the usual Fate bullcrap.



His justification is 'I hate that guy'.
I'm pretty sure his hatred for Charlie is motivation.


'Moron' means 'of exceptionally low intelligence'

'Retarded' is an offensive term for the mentally handicapped.

They are not the same thing. :smallannoyed:
Lol, mentally handicapped means of exceptionally low intelligence and/or autism spectre disorder. Unless you're think he is autistic, you are using it synonymous to how I defined the term. Basically Moron is retarded but a retarded person isn't necessarily a moron.

These terms are subject of euphemism threadmill, in couple of years mentally handicapped will get tossed under bus for being too harsh, so I don't worry about that. And for the record one of my cousins is retarded, so I've seen how it looks. Stanley ain't like that.



Also, I'm proving he's a moron using things he knew at the time. I'm not judging him as an omniscient reader (which we're not anyway, there's a ton in these books we're left in the dark about) I'm judging him from his own perspective in the world.

No, but I have a few dozen counts of Stanley doing dumb things. In order to prove that he's not a moron, you need to reasonably prove that the dumb actions he takes are outliers - They're not, they're his standard level of thought - or are all triggered by a reasonable catalyst. Again, they're not.
There are also dozen counts of Stanley doing correct things like keeping becoming Chief Warlord and heir; ordering the tri-mancer link; keeping his treasury and getting perfect warlord; deciding to bail before RCC arrives; deciding to bail Parson; getting better about names; actually winning the battles on his own; backstabbing Saline; keeping Jack alive; appointing Ansom. Also I don't need to really prove he is smart, I just need to prove he isn't worse than say Slately who is as vanilla as it gets.

We are omniscient reader because we see the story unfold from numerous angles. Omniscient reader doesn't imply perfect omniscience - that's universally omniscient narrator/reader.

Coidzor
2015-02-06, 04:18 AM
Stanely is not particularly intelligent, but he's not particularly stupid, per se, either. He has a natural shrewdness in certain areas, partially innately, partially automagically from his experiences, promotions, and leveling.

His mind is also... focused on specific spheres of his reality and very liable to be blinded by convictions, possibly related to his Leadership and ability to lead troops and commit them to fighting in certain ways.

Most of the Erfworlders we've encountered so far, if not just every single Erfworlder ever, is focused in this sort of way, because while we've been seeing more of them become fuller, more complex characters over time, at the end of the day, they're not full people the same way that we'd think about a person here in stupid world.

Also, in Erfworld stubbornness seems to be a two-edged sword that both limits one's ability to react to circumstances but also bolsters one's ability to try to break on through to the other side... except for those situations where it's just a hindrance, like considering the full consequences of something in light of new information and having to balance several positions and possible courses of action.

tomaO2
2015-02-06, 04:39 AM
On the subject of Warlord Signmancy. I think people are forgetting just how terrible the signmancy was on the uncroaked warlords Stanley promoted before Parson came along. I'd go so far as to say they had cursed signamancy. Literally any bland looking unit would have been better then these choices.

I can see the logic. Wanda went around looking at the various infantry and picked out units that had unique livery, and physical features, as opposed to picking from the others that all looked pretty much the same. Stanley's side also had a lot of smuckers on hand and Stanley himself would be predisposed to favor promotion since that was how he became warlord.

However, just because something is unique, doesn't make it better.


I'm not looking up the information. My memory is fairly good on these guys though.

Name: Manpower the Temporary.
Livery: an archery target.

He lasted a short while and was killed by an improbably lucky arrow shot. I honestly think that his livery cursed his luck and he wouldn't have been hit by it, if he hadn't been making himself a literal target.

I have to ask myself what archers in this world train to hit if Wanda didn't know how awful his livery was.

Name: Lady Phat Sings
Livery: scope crosshairs.

While the livery can refer to either being killed by ambush or doing the ambushing, the phrase"It ain't over until the fat lady sings" is a common expression, which means, if she does sing, all is lost. It's pretty clear that she was going to die soon by her signmancy.

Name: Duke... Ferdinand? It was some play of his name anyway.
Livery: human shaped target.

The duke's assassination was the reason that WW1 kicked off when it did. He was a bad choice.

Name: Leroy Jenkins.
Livery: a foot.

I don't... think the foot means anything particularly bad but the name Leroy Jenkins screams that this is not a guy to trust with making plans. He just likes to charge into battle. Fine for infantry. Terrible for warlords.

Name: Ensign Toast.
Livery: Starfleet red shirt uniform.

This guy has, by far, the worst signamancy of the five. The name is a common expression for defeat and I doubt anyone needs to explain why being a redshirt is little better then a death sentence.

The only surprising thing is that he lived long to level up a bit and get promoted. the fact that he'd die was pretty much preordained by fate as soon as he popped with that uniform of doom.

Legato Endless
2015-02-06, 04:42 AM
Just to clarify, I was talking about Chief Warlords, in the context of Stanley's elections. With that in mind...


Not necessarily. Most of the warlords who we've been told grant a big bonus look, well, Warlord-y -- big, strong, Warlord types.


A Warlord's bonus is tied to their level, we've no indication there's any individual variance. A Warlord's individual combat prowess probably has some variance, but that's a trifling thing in the context of a Chief Warlord.


It doesn't tell you whether a Warlord is clever or competent, but it's not meaningless, either; and given that there's no easy way to tell cleverness or competence, Stanley's decision to promote people who looked like they'd provide the biggest mechanical bonus wasn't necessarily as stupid as it looked at first glance.

Given that the method had failed previously to identify competence, the gold standard for a Chief Warlord, it was obviously faulty. And while the ways of determining it aren't easy, they're vastly important enough to justify the inconvenience. That's quite stupid, magnified still more by experience showing it didn't work. And Stanley doesn't need to engage in amateur signamancer to figure out the bonus granted, he already knows this as the Ruler. Even if he somehow didn't, all he would need to do to figure out what it was would be to promote each Warlord in turn. Which, given what happens to sides that aren't governed well, would be well worth throwing even a costly amount of schmuckers towards.


It might not have been enough -- it wouldn't give them the tactical genius they needed -- but using Signamancy to make decisions about promotions is more like Overlording 101 in Erfworld, in a situation where they needed something more clever or original than that, rather than being something completely idiotic the way it seemed at first. Stanley's problem there was that he was being too traditional, not that he was being completely idiotic.

Repeatedly attempting the same failed tactic in the same way when it leads you to ruin is completely idiotic. If he really needed this whole signamancer thing to work, he should have just hired an actual caster with real expertise. He did have the money for this at the start of book 1.



Of course, Stanley isn't a Signamancer and probably knows little about it, and may have gotten it wrong. But I don't think it's fair to say that it has zero bearing. Ansom, for instance, looks like the model warlord and, mechanically, he is.

Even if this were true, it's irrelevant. And I'm not sure what mechanically model means. Ansom is only level ten, not twenty. Does the mechanically model warlord get defeated by his own brother in single combat? And even if he were, the Chief Warlord and the Ruler are the least mechanically influenced roles in Erfworld. Why settle for the mechanically model warlord when you can have a superior specimen? We've seen two perfect warlords. They don't look like Ansom. Tramennis was the best Chief Warlord in Jetstone, and he doesn't look like either of his brothers. If Slately has promoted Tram instead, Parson would have had a hell of a lot harder time winning in book 1, assuming he even could ignoring possible Fate shenanigans. Heck, Stanley himself was admitted to be a pretty good non-chief warlord, and he's pretty far from the Ansom ideal.


Stanley's decision to appoint him was actually entirely rational in retrospect -- at that point, they had an overwhelming advantage, so what they needed was a mechanically-competent Warlord who could press that in a traditional, methodological fashion. Someone like Parson (who goes for strange new strategies and takes big risks) makes more sense when you're in trouble and need to roll the dice, but replacing him with Ansom when the side was rich and had a huge army wasn't necessarily a completely unreasonable choice. It makes even more sense when you realize that Stanley kept Parson around as an adviser, so he could in theory get both Parson's cleverness combined with Ansom's traditional skills and mechanical bonuses.


Stanely did nothing of the sort. His only contribution was not disbanding the man who saved everything he values. Stanely actively disparaged and discouraged Parson from advising. Wanda kept Parson on as adviser. Wanda basically kept Parson as close to Chief Warlord as she could save bonus. Heck, Wanda might be a better Chief Warlord than Ansom, since she's willing to admit when her subordinates might have better ideas than she does, a courtesy Ansom only occasionally offers up to Vinny. And yes, when Parson was doing Ansom's job, things did indeed work out better.



(I mean, things went badly because the narrative requires that they go badly so Parson will have a reason to be involved. But that was mostly because of Charlie's involvement, which Stanley didn't know about; if it hadn't been for that, Ansom would have easily ground the enemy to dust with traditional tactics.)


Ansom had an overwhelming advantage in that fight, the same as when he fought the Battle of Gobwin Knob. So sure, he's not an idiot, but that doesn't make him able.



And if you flip it around and look at what Stanley knows about Parson -- Parson is a strange, weird guy who is ignorant about a lot of basic stuff. He sometimes comes up with dramatic rule-breaking tricks that can win them battles they would otherwise lose, but he tends to do so with high-risk, high-reward strategies that often have a huge cost for his side (the dragon donut, collapsing the city on attackers, the volcano, etc -- his Magic Kingdom run qualifies, too, although that was after Stanley made this choice.) Replacing him with Ansom, who Stanley evaluated as a relatively low-risk, competent warlord who would reliably give good results, made a lot of sense at the time, since they didn't need Parson's risky tricks at that particular point.

That seems to be a bit of a mis-characterization of our protagonist. Parson only does high risk tactics when he needs to. He's perfectly willing to engage in low risk gambits when they'll get the job done. We've seen him specially advise against unnecessary risks, and he appears to have excellent discernment in separating necessity from non. The only thing Ansom brings to the table is a bonus. Which is nice enough, but has nothing to do with Signamancy.

Put another way, try applying Stanley's logic to any other profession on Erf. What's the 'look' of a Superior Caster? What do Wanda, Olive, and Isaac have in common appearance wise? How do you know a Ruler is competent? Slately was petty, traditional and short sided Ruler before his character development. He was also short, fat and old looking. Jillian is none of those things. Neither would exactly win Ruler of the year though. Every time we've seen Signamancy used, it's been fairly contextual. It tells us some things about the individual, but not really about anything more. As far as I can tell, it hasn't illustrated anything of what we're looking for here. Certainly not in a broad easy to apply way for the average native. Why would Signamancers have a job at all if this were the case? Alternatively, if Signamancers could just 'see' who's the best, why aren't they in massive demand? Wouldn't every side clamor for them? The reality is probably that Sigmanancy can no more assuredly identify the right people then Predictamancers can manipulate fate to their side's salvation.

Douglas
2015-02-06, 05:16 AM
On the subject of Warlord Signmancy. I think people are forgetting just how terrible the signmancy was on the uncroaked warlords Stanley promoted before Parson came along. I'd go so far as to say they had cursed signamancy. Literally any bland looking unit would have been better then these choices.

I can see the logic. Wanda went around looking at the various infantry and picked out units that had unique livery, and physical features, as opposed to picking from the others that all looked pretty much the same. Stanley's side also had a lot of smuckers on hand and Stanley himself would be predisposed to favor promotion since that was how he became warlord.

However, just because something is unique, doesn't make it better.
I concede Manpower the Temporary, but all the rest are only obviously bad to us because we know the real world things that they reference. For someone who does not know anything about Earth culture, they are quirky and unique but have no particular significance. I would not expect anyone but a Signamancer or Earth native to recognize them as bad, and no one on Stanley's side qualified as either until Parson was summoned.

tomaO2
2015-02-06, 05:25 AM
I concede Manpower the Temporary, but all the rest are only obviously bad to us because we know the real world things that they reference. For someone who does not know anything about Earth culture, they are quirky and unique but have no particular significance. I would not expect anyone but a Signamancer or Earth native to recognize them as bad, and no one on Stanley's side qualified as either until Parson was summoned.

I'm not faulting Wanda for making the mistake. If signmancy was easy then anyone could always make good choices on who to pick. Military signmancy is not something Wanda knows much about.

I'm just pointing out that signmancy did herald the doom of those warlords, whether anyone knew it or not.

Douglas
2015-02-06, 05:31 AM
I'm just pointing out that signmancy did herald the doom of those warlords, whether anyone knew it or not.
True, but that just makes Stanley and Wanda not qualified to do the job properly, rather than wrong about trying to base the decisions on appearance at all.

HalfTangible
2015-02-06, 09:17 AM
Moron means a person with mild mental retardation. Colloquially it refers to someone of subpar intelligence.

No, it doesn't, and I'm dropping this because I'm sick of saying 'retarded' :smallannoyed:


Correct, however choosing based on Signamancy isn't a completely foolish thing in Erfworld. We know it has some impact. Also choosing Ansom wasn't really a mistake, it's just that Ansom went against a warlord summoned by SPW. I doubt that Trammenis or Ossomer would have fared any better.We have two instances where an overlord chose their CW based on looks alone and both times it was treated as a massive mistake.


1) No. Being deceived or tricked has nothing to do with intelligence. Smart, intelligent people were deceived and tricked into joining cults and performing suicides (hell, they are more at risk than dumb people). You probably think they must have not been smart when they joined, but you would be wrong. It's like getting mugged. Being Einstein won't stop it.
2) Delusional essentially means crazy. He is delusional because who knows what Wanda filled his head with other than the usual Fate bullcrap.
1) Then why are you trying to use 'he was tricked' to mean 'he's totes smart gaiz'
2) Wait, so is obeying Fate useful or is it bullcrap? You're switching between the two.


I'm pretty sure his hatred for Charlie is motivation.Yes? >.>



Lol, mentally handicapped means of exceptionally low intelligence and/or autism spectre disorder. Unless you're think he is autistic, you are using it synonymous to how I defined the term. No, I'm not. I am calling Stanley dumb, moronic, of low intelligence, below average, etc etc. YOU are calling taking that to mean 'brain damaged'.


And for the record one of my cousins is retarded, so I've seen how it looks. Stanley ain't like that.Good thing I'm not calling him that, then. >.> I never have.



There are also dozen counts of Stanley doing correct things like keeping becoming Chief Warlord and heir;Which he did via magical artifact, and thus is unrelated to his intelligence


ordering the tri-mancer link;Yeah. ONE smart move *slow clap* That proves so much.


keeping his treasury and getting perfect warlord;He tried to cast a Findamancer spell with no Findamancer. Just because it worked out doesn't mean it was a good move.


deciding to bail before RCC arrives;And he did so in the dumbest manner possible


deciding to bail Parson;One, that was Parson's idea, not Stanley's, and he very nearly let Parson die in any case. Two, are we supposed to be going by what Stanley knows, or by what the reader knows? You keep switching things up based on which argument fits your own better. :smallconfused:


getting better about names;He still sucks at it. Improving does not mean he's smart.


actually winning the battles on his own;*grabs a megaphone* BEING STRONG DOES NOT MEAN YOU'RE NOT A MORON. Stop basing your argument on the idea that it does! :smalltongue:


backstabbing Saline;Uh, putting aside that we don't actually know who got the gobwins to break their alliance and kill Saline, how is this a good move? It put Stanley where he wouldn't be able to fight (which he knew), left the side hanging by a single thread (something he specifically chose to do), got the entire rest of the known world to attack him because ROYALTY GUUD OVERLORD BAHD (which he DID know was a common sentiment - he specifically decided not to have a crest because he thought it was royalist)


keeping Jack alive;Parson was the one who made that call.


appointing Ansom.Are you kidding me?! Stanley promoted Ansom over the guy that outmaneuvered and killed him while outnumbered 25 to 1. That was a dumb move.


Also I don't need to really prove he is smart, I just need to prove he isn't worse than say Slately who is as vanilla as it gets.Slately was smart enough not to charge into battle with no heir. Point goes to strawberry fatcake. :smalltongue::smallwink:


We are omniscient reader because we see the story unfold from numerous angles. Omniscient reader doesn't imply perfect omniscience - that's universally omniscient narrator/reader.

'Omniscient' means 'all knowing'. It means that when referring to narrators and readers as well. Erfworld has an omniscient narrator (which is natural for a comic format) but the readers are not omniscient. There is a difference. If the reader were omniscient, we'd know (for instance) what Charlie looks like.

Ugh, I'm done here.

halfeye
2015-02-06, 09:45 AM
Doesn't every level of warlord supply a boost to intelligence?

Given Stanley is quite high level, it's almost impossible that he's unintelligent.

HalfTangible
2015-02-06, 09:51 AM
Doesn't every level of warlord supply a boost to intelligence?

Citation, please. Because the exact opposite has been implied throughout the entire story: levelling does not make one the most fit to rule. It just means you give the biggest bonus.

Miklus
2015-02-06, 10:58 AM
And now for something completely different... the adds on the Erfworld site.

I can see that if you make a webcomic and try to make a living out of it, you might have to pimp out screen space to other people so they can place thier adds on it. And you don't get too choose what adds go there. But these adds...

If you are seeing the same ones as I, it goes something like this:

"You can make $600K per month!"
"Hey You! Want to get rich?"
"Make millions from home!"

And so on, with pictures of brightly colored supercars and sluts.

Really? How does the economy of web-adds even work? Does anyone actually click these EVER? I don't understand how there is any money in this, but I guess there have to be or does the adds pay the site per click or what?

Rogar Demonblud
2015-02-06, 11:07 AM
Name: Leroy Jenkins.
Livery: a foot.

I don't... think the foot means anything particularly bad but the name Leroy Jenkins screams that this is not a guy to trust with making plans. He just likes to charge into battle. Fine for infantry. Terrible for warlords.

It's a boot. As in 'kicking in the door' style of play. The one where instead of planning, you just walk up to the door and kick it open. Perhaps while screaming your name. Which is a very good way to get killed, really good if you're the guy in front.

HandofShadows
2015-02-06, 12:03 PM
It's a boot. As in 'kicking in the door' style of play. The one where instead of planning, you just walk up to the door and kick it open. Perhaps while screaming your name. Which is a very good way to get killed, really good if you're the guy in front.

You have to scream "Leroy Jenkins" while doing it. :smallbiggrin:

As for people being delusional about Fate. If they were one Earth, yes it would be delusional. But these characters are NOT on Earth, they are on Erfworld where Fate is a VERY real thing. We see with Wanda's origin story and we VERY clearly see it when Parson was thinking on using the scroll that would send him back to Earth.

HalfTangible
2015-02-06, 12:55 PM
You have to scream "Leroy Jenkins" while doing it. :smallbiggrin:

As for people being delusional about Fate. If they were one Earth, yes it would be delusional. But these characters are NOT on Earth, they are on Erfworld where Fate is a VERY real thing. We see with Wanda's origin story and we VERY clearly see it when Parson was thinking on using the scroll that would send him back to Earth.

Yeah, but as far as we can tell, these are predictions they made up themselves. We don't know that Fate has decreed the Arkentools end up together, or that Fate has decreed Royalty obsolete. These are things that the characters say is Fate, but none of those characters are Predictamancers.

Calemyr
2015-02-06, 12:56 PM
If someone already pointed this out, I apologize for parroting, but I really don't have the energy to parse a wall of point-for-point bickering today.

The point of the Peter Principle is this: When you prove you are very good at a job, you get promoted. As a result, powerful and intelligent people rise up the ranks up until they hit a point where they are out of their depth and that's where they stay.

Stanley was a darn good pikeman. So he got promoted to warlord.
Stanley was a darn good warlord. So he got promoted to chief warlord.
Stanley was a darn good chief warlord. So he got designated as heir. Then Saline IV croaked and Stanley became overlord.
Stanley is not a darn good overlord. He manages not to be an abysmal failure, so he's avoided defeat, but he has risen to a position he's not equipped for and his performance is unimpressive.
Stanley has risen to the point of his incompetence. Overlord is the lowest rank he can have in which his abilities are insufficient to progress.

If Gobwin Knob swapped its overlord and chief warlord roles, it'd be virtually unstoppable. Parson is a natural overlord - he combines intelligence and creativity with a frankly likable nature and an eye to the bigger picture. Stanley is a natural chief warlord - he's a born scrapper with a good mind for troops and the battlefield who has been a force to be reckoned with when not left in charge of the mission statement and diplomacy.

As for his promotion rules, I think it's quite likely that the typical signamancy for a high leadership potential is good looks. Parson may look like a pink binocular twoll*, but if you look at the effective warlords we've seen so far, the best of them tend to be quite attractive. Ansom and Ossomer, as obvious examples, or Vinny, Caesar, and Jillian. Or Silvia, or the Jetstone's Archer, or any number of warlords that survived only long enough to show their deaths were more bad luck than incompetence. Good looks and leadership ability are both filed frequently under the same heading, charisma, making it an effective shorthand for estimating the promise of potential warlords before promoting them. Stanley had already expended his obvious leaders, he's just going for whoever's got the most charisma of the few that are left.

* Even Parson is building fitness as he becomes a more effective leader. Granted, in his case it's because he can't afford a sedentary lifestyle, but the fact remains that his signamancy is improving alongside his capacity as a warlord.

To put a personal spin on it, a previous boss of mine is very talented man in a lot of areas. Due to his competence and seniority, he was promoted to a management role. Management was not one of his talents. As such, he tended to micromanage because he would have been more comfortable doing the work than overseeing it, and morale suffered because he had difficulty maintaining a proper relationship with his subordinates - bouncing between being "one of the guys" and being aggressively critical. He wasn't a "good" manager, but that wasn't because he was incompetent - it was his very competence that pushed him into a role he wasn't equipped for. When he moved on to a job that promised to challenge him in better ways, his position was filled by a natural manager, who knew very little about his subordinates' jobs but was very good at keeping them organized, on task, and motivated. Does that make sense?

-D-
2015-02-06, 04:09 PM
Lol, mentally handicapped means of exceptionally low intelligence and/or autism spectre disorder. Unless you're think he is autistic, you are using it synonymous to how I defined the term.

No, I'm not. I am calling Stanley dumb, moronic, of low intelligence, below average, etc etc. YOU are calling taking that to mean 'brain damaged'.

Emphasis mine.


He tried to cast a Findamancer spell with no Findamancer. Just because it worked out doesn't mean it was a good move.
Wanda can cast Findamancy and she did managed to cast it succesfully. It was the right thing to do, emptying the treasury would force them to disband other units for PW upkeep.


He still sucks at it. Improving does not mean he's smart.
He is capable of reflection and realizing that he needs to improve in that aspect.


BEING STRONG DOES NOT MEAN YOU'RE NOT A MORON. Stop basing your argument on the idea that it does! :smalltongue:
Trust me, morons aren't able to get out of such position. They are essentially very childlike.


Parson was the one who made that call.
He didn't. He provided argumentation why is that a good move. Call was one mostly Stanley's. Parson only joked that Wanda stole his Sword of Ruthlessness.


Are you kidding me?! Stanley promoted Ansom over the guy that outmaneuvered and killed him while outnumbered 25 to 1. That was a dumb move.Ansom has better stats, is a reliable quantity and compelled by Duty, unlike Parson that while supremely efficient but doesn't know basic things and is able to disobey Orders (which should be impossible).


Slately was smart enough not to charge into battle with no heir. Point goes to strawberry fatcake. :smalltongue::smallwink:
Huh!? Slately did exactly that. He made Tram CW, then decided that he needs more money to promote Tram to Heir (while their next Heir is several turns away), and charged in and got himself killed, leaving behind a double that expires in one turn to 'rule'. He almost doomed his side by doing that. He then sacrificed his unpoped Heir + Charlie's bounty to make Tram heir.


'Omniscient' means 'all knowing'.
Words change their meanings, with time and contexts. Omniscient narrator/pov/reader means something else in context of a story. I merely cleared up that misunderstanding.


Ugh, I'm done here.
Me as well.

ChowGuy
2015-02-06, 08:42 PM
I find it unnerving that in this argument about whether Stanley is "smart" or "shrewd" or even "competent" in his innovation of the Eyemancer linkup (yes, innovation - doing something that no-one else thought of is innovation by definition.) you're all missing the point. The post that led to all was

I think I might have a theory on why Erfworlders are very unlikely to ever pursue knowledge and propose any innovations: unlike us, they pop as adults with all necessary knowledge for their position and function. They never need to learn in order to live and fulfill their purpose.

Peter Principle notwithstanding, Stanley is the preeminent example of an Erfworlder who clearly did not "pop with all necessary knowledge" for the function of Overlord, and has been forced to learn as he goes, thereby refuting the basic premise which seems to be "anyone without a Proper Liberal Education (emphasis on LIBERAL) and the crendtials that go with it must inherently be too trivial to pay attention to. Ab Elistist attude that any "Popped to Rule" Royalist would be proud of.


Also while I'm hereAnd I know this because Stanley has specifically stated that Faq was his personal secret that nobody else knew about.Except, of course, his Foolamancer and his Chief Croakamancer, who were both there. And wasn't said Foolamancer [i]part[i] of the link?

NEO|Phyte
2015-02-06, 09:30 PM
Peter Principle notwithstanding, Stanley is the preeminent example of an Erfworlder who clearly did not "pop with all necessary knowledge" for the function of Overlord

Because he popped as a stabber, not an overlord.

Legato Endless
2015-02-06, 09:39 PM
I find it unnerving that in this argument about whether Stanley is "smart" or "shrewd" or even "competent" in his innovation of the Eyemancer linkup (yes, innovation - doing something that no-one else thought of is innovation by definition.) you're all missing the point.


So all conversations must needs restrain themselves to a singular premise? :smallconfused:


Peter Principle notwithstanding, Stanley is the preeminent example of an Erfworlder who clearly did not "pop with all necessary knowledge" for the function of Overlord...

Stanley didn't pop as an Overlord however, so that's not truly a counter example. He popped as a piker, and like Wiggler the stabber or Mary Sagitari the archer, he was spawned with relevant knowledge to act in this capacity. That does make an interesting commentary though. The Rulers are the most oft criticized characters in the series by the fandom. Which makes some sense, because...we've never met anyone who actually pops as a ruler.

Also, this is slightly pedantic:



Trust me, morons aren't able to get out of such position. They are essentially very childlike.


Words change their meanings, with time and contexts. Omniscient narrator/pov/reader means something else in context of a story. I merely cleared up that misunderstanding.

It is relatively problematic to make definitive statements about the capabilities of the intellectually disabled, as it is varied generalization, not a uniform branding, even if this wasn't by way of an antiqued term, which unlike the euphemistically offensive retarded, was retired partially because it's based off an outdated understanding of neurological development.


Words change their meanings, with time and contexts. Omniscient narrator/pov/reader means something else in context of a story. I merely cleared up that misunderstanding.

True, but technically 'Omniscient reader' isn't an actually used literary term as far as I know, as the narrator is not indistinguishable from the reader. But it's certainly true the reader in such circumstances is usually granted broader awareness than most if not all of the characters.

Douglas
2015-02-06, 10:11 PM
we've never met anyone who actually pops as a ruler.
We have met characters who popped as heirs, though, and with regard to necessary knowledge that should be functionally the same.

HalfTangible
2015-02-06, 10:31 PM
True, but technically 'Omniscient reader' isn't an actually used literary term as far as I know

I'm a writer. It's not. (I argued with it earlier off my best guess of what 'omniscient reader' would actually mean if it were a literary term)

-D-
2015-02-07, 03:27 AM
I'm a writer. It's not. (I argued with it earlier off my best guess of what 'omniscient reader' would actually mean if it were a literary term)
But omniscient narrator is a familiar term, correct? And you do know there are omniscient narrators that don't have perfect information?

The way I used omniscient reader is analogous to one used in books to describe comic book pov. Especially since the comic is partially in written form.

HalfTangible
2015-02-07, 11:11 AM
But omniscient narrator is a familiar term, correct? And you do know there are omniscient narrators that don't have perfect information?

The way I used omniscient reader is analogous to one used in books to describe comic book pov. Especially since the comic is partially in written form.

Yes, and I used the definition that would make sense... which you disagreed with and continued to argue as if it were an actual literary term with a definition I was getting wrong >.>

-D-
2015-02-07, 12:22 PM
Yes, and I used the definition that would make sense... which you disagreed with and continued to argue as if it were an actual literary term with a definition I was getting wrong >.>
And readers of Erfworld are partially omniscient. Book 0 reveals things that are unknown to any characters (aside from Mathamancers) - like the existence of Zero plane and way Numbers and Erf work. In other Books, the information is hidden.

Anyway, the point of that whole sentence was - it's easy for readers to say why didn't X do Y, when the picture they see is bigger than each part a character sees.

HalfTangible
2015-02-07, 12:33 PM
And readers of Erfworld are partially omniscient. Book 0 reveals things that are unknown to any characters (aside from Mathamancers) - like the existence of Zero plane and way Numbers and Erf work. In other Books, the information is hidden.

Except that A) this is stuff that's revealed in-story and B) it's been established that most of what casters know about magic (such as the zero plane, which sounds more philosophical than physical to me anyway) is theory.


Also I thought that the parallel between omniscient narrator and omniscient reader is obvious.

Never assume that something you made up is obvious. Especially when it's central to understanding your argument.

And yes, there are many types of third person narrators. But you specifically said omniscient reader. The only reason to differentiate that from an omniscient narrator is to apply the omniscience of the narrator to the reader. The omniscient narrator for Erfworld is partial, since we see the story from multiple angles based on what's important. If the 'omniscient reader' is seeing the story from multiple angles based on what's important, that would mean that an omniscient reader knows everything important going on in the story already. Including, for example, Charlie's central motivation.

-D-
2015-02-07, 02:07 PM
Except that A) this is stuff that's revealed in-story
In story? No. It wasn't. We know for fact that Zero plane is a (meta)physical thing. As in it exists, it tracked Wanda's score which will likely be in the billions, and it will kill others to even that score. We were told - yes, this thing is real. No other character knows this for certain.


One day in the country of zero, someone paid a price. Somewhere in the great, infinite sheet of balance, a peak rose up.

Peaceful zeros became ones. Fives. Forty-eights. Agitated hundred-and-twelves. Angry sixty-three-seventy-nines.

The thousands piled up, far above the plane of equilibrium. The numbers rose as a column, into the millions and billions and more, a silver thread stretching up and away from the peace below.

This thread was being drawn up by the system of the world. Thinkamancers knew it as a "Grandiocosmic string." Its numbers were being shaped and guided by the firmament, by what magic theorists called the Erf Axis.

For when the price was paid, it was Erfworld which processed the transaction. The world would produce the unit that was called for...more or less. There was the matter of the Fate Axis as well, and this unit was turning out to be very special. This unit would be worth far more than the buyer had paid for.

That was no violation of Numbers, though. It simply meant that this unit carried a balance due. And though it was an astronomically high figure, someone would pay.

Zero always called, and someone would have to pay.


The omniscient narrator for Erfworld is partial
Calling it omniscient narrator, when it doesn't narrate anything sounds bizarre, that's why I used reader.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, this whole semantic discussion distracts from my own point - A reader that has a near omniscient PoV can easily say why X didn't do Y to avoid Z?

HalfTangible
2015-02-07, 02:52 PM
In story? No. It wasn't.Narration is part of the story, D :smallannoyed: And it would have to be part of the story to be reliable, as you make it out to be.


We know for fact that Zero plane is a (meta)physical thing. As in it exists, it tracked Wanda's score which will likely be in the billions, and it will kill others to even that score. No, we don't. :smallannoyed: I just read that section again, it doesn't even mention a 'Plane of Zero'. It mentions a 'plane of equilibrium' which is a blatant metaphor for the inevitable final result of entropy.


We were told - yes, this thing is real. No other character knows this for certain.

We were told 'this is how numbers work'. Through metaphor.

EDIT: Heck, later Wanda says that Zero was already calling her back. For all we know this is how Wanda processed the world around her.


Calling it omniscient narrator, when it doesn't narrate anything sounds bizarre, that's why I used reader. It still fits >.>


Anyway, this whole semantic discussion distracts from my own point - A reader that has a near omniscient PoV can easily say why X didn't do Y to avoid Z?

You mean that conversation we both said we were dropping?

Doran
2015-02-07, 03:40 PM
Luck boost the quakkens maybe? Not sure how he reduced the friendly ones to zero so he could feed them. Perhaps the eagle also boosted Cat's recovery

slayerx
2015-02-07, 05:24 PM
Luck boost the quakkens maybe? Not sure how he reduced the friendly ones to zero so he could feed them. Perhaps the eagle also boosted Cat's recovery

Give the luck boosts to Gummel so that he can score a few solid Crits, i'd think. With a little luck, those few crits might let His quakkens might go 2 for 1, or close to it. He loses 2 quakkens taking out 4 of the ferals and then just barely takes out the 5th before his last Quakken goes down.

Rogar Demonblud
2015-02-08, 12:38 AM
Interesting thought: I remember a kids' show from when I was little with a host called Captain Eleven. I wonder if Rob watched it too.

Killer Angel
2015-02-08, 05:09 AM
Give the luck boosts to Gummel so that he can score a few solid Crits, i'd think. With a little luck, those few crits might let His quakkens might go 2 for 1, or close to it. He loses 2 quakkens taking out 4 of the ferals and then just barely takes out the 5th before his last Quakken goes down.

That's probably the plan. And with a luck point, they'll hit the best quakken for the plan to work.

-D-
2015-02-08, 09:27 AM
No, we don't. :smallannoyed: I just read that section again, it doesn't even mention a 'Plane of Zero'. It mentions a 'plane of equilibrium' which is a blatant metaphor for the inevitable final result of entropy.
Hm, I thought it was on wiki after someone ask a question about it.

As for plane of equilibrium, it's not necessarily metaphor for final result of entropy. A plane of equilibrium seems to indicate a place of balance, like the equations are balanced. Like for example a = b is an equality or differently written a - b = 0.



We were told 'this is how numbers work'. Through metaphor.

EDIT: Heck, later Wanda says that Zero was already calling her back. For all we know this is how Wanda processed the world around her.

It's definitely an explanation how things work - before you are popped, your score is calculated, your Fate assigned and the result is processed by the Erf. In essence it shows how Erf/Fate/Numbers interact. Nothing really indicates that narrator is bound to Wanda's perception of the world.


You mean that conversation we both said we were dropping?
Dunno, you didn't seem to be dropping it :smalltongue:

halfeye
2015-02-08, 11:08 AM
Citation, please.
It was a question because I don't know. A lot of games do do that sort of thing, some don't, so I asked.

Lethologica
2015-02-08, 07:04 PM
But omniscient narrator is a familiar term, correct? And you do know there are omniscient narrators that don't have perfect information?

The way I used omniscient reader is analogous to one used in books to describe comic book pov. Especially since the comic is partially in written form.
There are third-person limited narrators, who don't have perfect information; and third-person omniscient narrators, who do. That's the point of the 'omniscient' designator.

Synar
2015-02-09, 12:30 PM
There are third-person limited narrators, who don't have perfect information; and third-person omniscient narrators, who do. That's the point of the 'omniscient' designator.

Yeah, I really don't understand all this discussion about "omniscient but in fact not omniscient but called omniscient just because" narrators - and readers, apparently (whatever that means).

Alex Knight
2015-02-09, 03:09 PM
Interesting thought: I remember a kids' show from when I was little with a host called Captain Eleven. I wonder if Rob watched it too.

I'm betting it's related more to Ocean's Eleven.

Killer Angel
2015-02-10, 02:00 AM
I'm betting it's related more to Ocean's Eleven.

Very probably this is the right guess.

Bird
2015-02-10, 02:27 PM
New Forecastle. (http://archives.erfworld.com/Kickstarter%20Stories/51)

Cat is right about Forecastle liking to talk. This also made me think that if the action in these last few pages had been shown directly instead of as a later account, it would have gone on 3x as long.

In other news, I don't think we've seen any new art yet in 2015, unless there's been Toolbox stuff. I've been enjoying Forecastle, though.

-D-
2015-02-10, 03:53 PM
New Forecastle. (http://archives.erfworld.com/Kickstarter%20Stories/51)


In other news, I don't think we've seen any new art yet in 2015, unless there's been Toolbox stuff. I've been enjoying Forecastle, though.
No ****. While I like Forecastle, it's not my favorite part of Erfworld. To me it's kinda like watching Thor instead of Avengers. I mean sure Loki, I mean Thor is interesting, but Avengers are Avengers. I wish Forecastle was over already. It might be Rob is stretching it. Maybe he is looking for a new artist. There have been a lot of complaints about the art and it's somewhat founded. Or maybe Rob doesn't know where to go with Erfworld still.

The Glyphstone
2015-02-10, 05:01 PM
Yeah. I loved Forecastle for showing us another part of Erfworld and fleshing out the universe, but now it's really starting to drag on a bit too long. Wrap it up and get back to the main plot.

Coidzor
2015-02-11, 12:04 AM
Yeah. I loved Forecastle for showing us another part of Erfworld and fleshing out the universe, but now it's really starting to drag on a bit too long. Wrap it up and get back to the main plot.

Yeah, I'd say it was only in the last half dozen or so updates that it seemed to be dragging on within the text of the story itself, though.

Aquillion
2015-02-11, 12:34 AM
I wonder if something went wrong? They were supposed to resume halfway through January (http://www.erfworld.com/blog/view/45413/holiday-break-part-2-david-is-moving), and now it's nearly a month after that with no word.

I mean, this is way better than it was back when they just stopped updating entirely, but it's still head-scratching. Wasn't the whole point of getting David onboard to avoid things like this?

Doran
2015-02-11, 02:26 AM
I wonder if something went wrong? They were supposed to resume halfway through January (http://www.erfworld.com/blog/view/45413/holiday-break-part-2-david-is-moving), and now it's nearly a month after that with no word.

I mean, this is way better than it was back when they just stopped updating entirely, but it's still head-scratching. Wasn't the whole point of getting David onboard to avoid things like this?

I think things have gone badly wrong with David's move, so he is extremely busy with that
Radio silence about it is probably just because there's no clear date when it'll end, so a news post would only start people complaining.

Bird
2015-02-11, 03:54 AM
Perhaps worth noting that Rob could do text-only updates of the main story if he wanted to. For whatever reasons, he prefers to finish Fawskull.

Lethologica
2015-02-11, 04:21 AM
Part 21 would have been a perfect ending to the Forecastle story. Part 20 wrapped up everything we needed to know about the battle; 21 wrapped up everything we needed to know about the aftermath in a few tight scenes, and Cat asking Forecastle to tell the story to her subordinates neatly frames the whole story. Everything past that might as well not exist, as far as I'm concerned.

Killer Angel
2015-02-11, 07:47 AM
Yeah. I loved Forecastle for showing us another part of Erfworld and fleshing out the universe, but now it's really starting to drag on a bit too long. Wrap it up and get back to the main plot.

Yeah. Consider we lucky that all this last part was a brief summary...
Very nice, but too much long, indeed.

-D-
2015-02-11, 03:06 PM
I wonder if something went wrong? They were supposed to resume halfway through January (http://www.erfworld.com/blog/view/45413/holiday-break-part-2-david-is-moving), and now it's nearly a month after that with no word.
It could be anything. The artist could be moving still, or sick, or Rob could be sick or looking for new artist or just figuring out plot. Worth noting is that the updates didn't resume at their usual Fri/Mon pace, there were frequent six day gaps.

I bet it's probably Rob figuring out where to take the story and building a backlog.

Wayson
2015-02-12, 11:11 PM
It could be anything. The artist could be moving still, or sick, or Rob could be sick or looking for new artist or just figuring out plot. Worth noting is that the updates didn't resume at their usual Fri/Mon pace, there were frequent six day gaps.

I bet it's probably Rob figuring out where to take the story and building a backlog.

I was under the impression that the most recent Kickstarter was supposed to get David and an entire studio of artists onboard, so as to avoid the long hiatuses that Xin's (understandably turbulent) personal life was causing. The previous Kickstarter was solely supposed to teach David (no mention of a studio, just David) how to draw Erfworld and pay his way around a bunch of conventions to meet fans of Erfworld. Since we can conclude that David's absence causes comic cessation, I'm inclined to question whether a studio even exists at this point. Either way it shakes out, the lack of updates is sadly familiar.

I will say this, Rob has learned that going completely radio silent is a great way to have people stop checking his webpage. Text updates are better than no updates, so I'll withhold my gripes for now.

Bird
2015-02-13, 12:07 AM
Rob Balder has said this (http://forums.erfworld.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6804):

David will be doing all facets of the art, from penciling through coloring/shading. But we'll use his fellow pros as a backstop as needed, in roles that may include inking, coloring and/or shading to make sure we stay on our production schedule.

And this/ (http://periscopestudio.com/) is the studio's website.

Anteros
2015-02-15, 11:31 PM
Given his history I don't have a lot of understanding for people who still chose to donate with the delusion that he'd actually keep a promised schedule.

-D-
2015-02-16, 05:09 PM
Given his history I don't have a lot of understanding for people who still chose to donate with the delusion that he'd actually keep a promised schedule.
What history are you referring? I'm genuinely curious.

hajo
2015-02-17, 04:57 AM
What history are you referring?
Erfworld has had several "slowdowns" already.

But making a list would require some work...
Like, get the release-date of all the updates, calculate date-difference, then make statistics/graph.

Changes of artist (2*), and some kickstarters come to mind.

-D-
2015-02-17, 06:38 AM
Erfworld has had several "slowdowns" already.

But making a list would require some work...
Like, get the release-date of all the updates, calculate date-difference, then make statistics/graph.

Changes of artist (2*), and some kickstarters come to mind.
I do remember it had several slowdowns, but that's kinda par for the course with webcomics.

I know they changed artist from Jamie to Xin and later from Xin to David, but the second change was due to Xin's mom dying and she having to take her role, which left little time for her to draw. What does the star in 2* refer to?

Divayth Fyr
2015-02-17, 07:03 AM
Aren't Forecastle et all stories that were supposed to be delivered in December 2012?


What does the star in 2* refer to?
I'd imagine 2* means "two times".

-D-
2015-02-17, 02:38 PM
Aren't Forecastle et all stories that were supposed to be delivered in December 2012?
Current Kickstarter says August 2015. Also the kickstarter was April of 2014, not 2012? Previous kickstarter didn't offer backer stories as far as I can tell.

Divayth Fyr
2015-02-17, 03:21 PM
Current Kickstarter says August 2015. Also the kickstarter was April of 2014, not 2012? Previous kickstarter didn't offer backer stories as far as I can tell.
Check the 1950$ tier. (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1554093685/erfworld-motion-comic-project) And note that the Lord Crush (http://archives.erfworld.com/Kickstarter%20Stories/1) story has a mention of "Copyright 2013" which makes it predate the Kickstarter you mention.

-D-
2015-02-17, 03:41 PM
Check the 1950$ tier. (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1554093685/erfworld-motion-comic-project) And note that the Lord Crush (http://archives.erfworld.com/Kickstarter%20Stories/1) story has a mention of "Copyright 2013" which makes it predate the Kickstarter you mention.
I did add, as far as I can tell. So did he do the four Kickstarter stories from year of the Dwagon? Were they publicly announced? He mention that these prose stories are 1000 words long. All three backer stories so far are waaaay more than 1000 words long.

Divayth Fyr
2015-02-17, 04:11 PM
I did add, as far as I can tell. So did he do the four Kickstarter stories from year of the Dwagon? Were they publicly announced? He mention that these prose stories are 1000 words long. All three backer stories so far are waaaay more than 1000 words long.
AFAIK, he hasn't released all of the stories (there should be 5 - 4 from the Year of the Dwagon, 1 longer from Battle Crest Lapel Pins - this is not counting anything from the latest Kickstarter (which, as it turns out, links to Digdoug and Lord Crush as examples of a story/novella made for a "previous Kickstarter donor".))

Adaon Nightwind
2015-02-18, 05:21 PM
And so, the Duke Forecastle Storyline reaches it end. This whole Story was rather good; and the ending does feel satisfying. Farewell, Fawksull.

The Glyphstone
2015-02-18, 05:35 PM
But everyone knows that the bird is the word... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThquH5t0ow)

Bird
2015-02-18, 06:00 PM
That was one of my favorite installments of the whole saga. A sweet ending--not saccharine sweet, not over-the-top, not wish fulfillment, just nice. It felt like an honest, reasonable outcome for the character, and it made me smile.

Yana
2015-02-18, 07:28 PM
I am genuinely going to miss Duke Forecastle. He was easily the most nuanced character that we've seen Rob write about yet. The fact that he's probably the character that has the most written about him might affect that statement, but even so. I can only hope that he'll show up at some point in the main narrative.

HalfTangible
2015-02-18, 07:35 PM
... ya know... I'm glad that Cat and Forecastle ended with just a kiss. Maybe it's just me, but it felt a lot more real and powerful than any other attempt at 'romance' erfworld's done so far.

And yeah. Forecastle is great. His story's great. Even that thrice-darned eagle is great. The happy ending felt earned and genuine, and while not perfect it was very well done. I love that the eagle is feral, but chose to stay with him just like the Quakkens did. Erfworld shines at moments like these, where previously disclosed mechanics come back in unpredictable ways.

The only huge misstep for me is where the flashback began; in my mind, it should've ended after he destroyed the enemy fleet and fled the hex, and then talked about the gun whale and the rest.

Rogar Demonblud
2015-02-18, 11:27 PM
Yeah, I'd say that's about the best ending we've seen for one of these stories.

Killer Angel
2015-02-19, 05:20 PM
I'm both satisfied by the ending, and by the fact that it's finally ended. An entertaining story.

tomaO2
2015-02-20, 01:00 AM
Alright, to all of you guys that are concerned that there may not be any more text updates since Duke Forecastle is done, don't worry.


Corrupt User 55 days ago

Just out of curiosity, when Fawksull is finished up, will the next set of text updates be a new storyline, more Book 0, or DigDoug Part 2? I'm happy with any.

---------------

balder

balder 55 days ago

@Corrupt User - I'll start a new story for a backer from the first project. We definitely will do more Digdoug someday, but he's got to wait his turn.

Time for a brand new backer story!

YAYAYAYAYAY...

Oh, what's that? The Erfworld comic that was also supposed to be posted along with text updates?

Well, you see, when Rob said the schedule resumes second half of Janurary, he meant January 2016. So, all text updates all the time for the next year or so.

ENJOY!

*sigh*

I miss Xin. If I'm going to have an unreliable artist that doesn't get any work done for months at a time anyway. I would really like to have her do the art work. She's by far my favorite of the three.

Legato Endless
2015-02-20, 01:48 AM
I thought Book 0 had concluded? At least the rough draft barring potential revisions.

Excellent ending, this was definitely the strongest of the side stories.

tomaO2
2015-02-20, 02:22 AM
Book zero has three arcs.

Arc 1: The story of how Wanda destroyed her side of Goodminton.

Arc 2: The story of how Wanda destroyed her side of Haffaton.

Arc 3: The story of how Wanda destroyed her side of Faq.

I'm sure Gobwin Knob will be fine though...

Doran
2015-02-20, 02:38 AM
There's a Facebook comment from Rob, saying that while comic updates are coming, he doesn't want to make any concrete promises until he knows for sure.

Also if you looking for comics, the OOTS KS just updated with the Therkla story!

Psychonaut
2015-02-20, 02:42 AM
I thought Book 0 had concluded? At least the rough draft barring potential revisions.

Excellent ending, this was definitely the strongest of the side stories.

I've seen people on the Erfworld forum mention that there's supposed to be a third section of Book 0 at some point, usually in the context of speculating about who the POV character will be. (Stanley seems to be a popular candidate.) But I don't know what Rob has said about it.

Killer Angel
2015-02-20, 07:48 AM
I miss Xin. If I'm going to have an unreliable artist that doesn't get any work done for months at a time anyway. I would really like to have her do the art work. She's by far my favorite of the three.

I like Erfworld, but frankly, all the whole Rob's management regarding the artists, is ridiculous. :smallsigh:

-D-
2015-02-20, 08:50 AM
I like Erfworld, but frankly, all the whole Rob's management regarding the artists, is ridiculous. :smallsigh:
Uh... Gossiping. What do you mean management? Is there anything I should be aware?

Wayson
2015-02-20, 08:56 AM
Alright, to all of you guys that are concerned that there may not be any more text updates since Duke Forecastle is done, don't worry.



Time for a brand new backer story!

YAYAYAYAYAY...

Oh, what's that? The Erfworld comic that was also supposed to be posted along with text updates?

Well, you see, when Rob said the schedule resumes second half of Janurary, he meant January 2016. So, all text updates all the time for the next year or so.

ENJOY!

*sigh*

I miss Xin. If I'm going to have an unreliable artist that doesn't get any work done for months at a time anyway. I would really like to have her do the art work. She's by far my favorite of the three.

I second this. Of the three artists so far, Xin was definitely the best in terms of quality and detail. And emotions/actions oh my LORD. David really struggles with showing those; his characters tend towards static and passive for both their faces and their positioning. No sense of anger, fear, betrayal, motion, etc. For a professional artist his art is surprisingly crude.

Also, he apparently has no need for money. Today marks the 60th day since the last Erfworld text-with-comic-panel. It has been 98 days since the last full comic. Either Rob is paying David regardless of whether he produces anything, or David has other projects of substantially higher priorities and is not (as advertised) a full-time artist for Erfworld.

Killer Angel
2015-02-20, 09:07 AM
Uh... Gossiping. What do you mean management?

By “management”, i mean the way Rob deal with his co-workers and plan the development of the main comic. Rob is the commander-in-chief, right? Well, we have an artist that draws Erf; at the end of book 1, Rob basically says “there were problems, it’s not my fault, we have to change”; at the end of book 2, again “there were problems, it’s not my fault, we have to change”; book 3 it’s started, and we already have problems…

-D-
2015-02-20, 10:27 AM
Well, we have an artist that draws Erf; at the end of book 1, Rob basically says “there were problems, it’s not my fault, we have to change”; at the end of book 2, again “there were problems, it’s not my fault, we have to change”; book 3 it’s started, and we already have problems…
Yeah, I get what you mean although in Xin's case I feel it was justified. Her mom died and she became the woman of the house. In David's case I could see him changing artists due to public pressure. Not sure why Jamie was replaced.

Still doesn't excuse his abyssmal latenesses regarding backer stories.

Aquillion
2015-02-20, 11:08 AM
Yeah, I get what you mean although in Xin's case I feel it was justified. Her mom died and she became the woman of the house. In David's case I could see him changing artists due to public pressure. Not sure why Jamie was replaced.

Still doesn't excuse his abyssmal latenesses regarding backer stories.I thought Jamie quit? Anything like this involves a huge amount of work with comparatively little pay, so it's not that surprising (and other artist / write collaborations have had similar problems in the past.)

Legato Endless
2015-02-20, 05:55 PM
I've seen people on the Erfworld forum mention that there's supposed to be a third section of Book 0 at some point, usually in the context of speculating about who the POV character will be. (Stanley seems to be a popular candidate.) But I don't know what Rob has said about it.

Ah, okay.


Book zero has three arcs.

Arc 1: The story of how Wanda destroyed her side of Goodminton.

Arc 2: The story of how Wanda destroyed her side of Haffaton.

Arc 3: The story of how Wanda destroyed her side of Faq.

I'm sure Gobwin Knob will be fine though...

Arc 3 sounds like something that will be revealed in the webcomic proper, given it's significance to various characters. Is there a source verifying that's the actual plot, or is this speculation?


I second this. Of the three artists so far, Xin was definitely the best in terms of quality and detail.

Xin's my favorite too, but I liked Jaime well enough. His style being more whimsical really helped set the mood for this quirky work. Having him come back and replace David would be awesome frankly.

MReav
2015-02-20, 07:02 PM
Arc 3 sounds like something that will be revealed in the webcomic proper, given it's significance to various characters. Is there a source verifying that's the actual plot, or is this speculation?

Unless we're going into exacting details, we already know how Wanda destroyed FAQ. She tells Paron this in the main comic (with Stanley giving his own account later in one of the partial updates) : she found out Stanley had an Arkentool, told him the location of FAQ to lure him over, expected him to get killed by FAQ's defenses because Stanley's came across as an idiot, he found some Dwagons along the way, she realized she booped up, and turned to let Stanley win, killed and decroaked Banhammer, and left with Stanley.

tomaO2
2015-02-20, 11:19 PM
We know book 0 isn't finished because Rob hasn't monetized it yet. Rob did not write out all those words and have actual ART for every page without a plan to sell it later on. That is just not how he does things. To think otherwise is to not understand his mentality with this venture.

All those short stories he wrote, like Jillian meeting Don? They went into the book one and two. He doesn't keep them website exclusive.

Then look at the backer stories. Most of those don't have any art at all and he got paid to write them. Do you really think he would just be posting book 0 out of the goodness of his heart to give readers something to read while waiting for the comic to start up again?

This is a business and Rob will sell everything he can to profit from it. When finished, he'll probably sell it as a PDF. Probably taking down the free version first, to further sales. Works for the OOTS pre-equals.

The most obvious continuation of the story is to give details on the fall of Faq. We know the general story, enough that it doesn't need to be elaborated on in the comic, but there are plenty of details that can be filled out.

By “management”, i mean the way Rob deal with his co-workers and plan the development of the main comic. Rob is the commander-in-chief, right? Well, we have an artist that draws Erf; at the end of book 1, Rob basically says “there were problems, it’s not my fault, we have to change”; at the end of book 2, again “there were problems, it’s not my fault, we have to change”; book 3 it’s started, and we already have problems…

It's really mind boggling how much trouble rob has gotten into with his artists. Three major changes over the course of three books. I can't think of another webcomic that has had that happen.

Given Thunt's card game troubles and how Rob has been screwed over by past people he's dealt with, such as his trouble making the new website and such. I have to wonder if this artist really is on the up and up or if he got paid in advance and then walked off. Another poster mentioned that possibility in Erf forums and it seems plausible to me. Especially if he was paid up front.

It's annoying. There are tons of professional artists out there. Manga artists do 18 pages a WEEK. not colored and the panels tend to be larger but STILL. Those people slave over their work and don't tend to get 3 month breaks unless something seriously bad happens. They don't get holidays off either. All the guy has to do is draw two pages. Better if it's three so he can build a buffer, and that's it.

He's being paid, probably was paid in advance. I can't imagine why someone that needed two kickstarters before he would agree to work would show such a lack of professionalism. I really hope we get a proper explanation because Rob raised expectations extremely high only to end up with the same old problems.

Delays, broken promises, and lack of communication for long periods.

Narkis
2015-02-21, 03:53 AM
I'm not sure the artist is to blame. Either Rob is the unluckiest writer in the history of webcomics, or he's doing something wrong.

Divayth Fyr
2015-02-21, 04:35 AM
Seeing how the text updates suffer from the same problems that the comic ones do (delays and such), the latter seems more than likely.

Killer Angel
2015-02-21, 04:43 AM
It's really mind boggling how much trouble rob has gotten into with his artists. Three major changes over the course of three books. I can't think of another webcomic that has had that happen.

We could do a comparison with music. Can we imagine a group that "suffers" a change of 3 singers during the first 3 albums? (Iron Maiden changed 3 singers, but not with that fast pace)

tomaO2
2015-02-21, 07:04 AM
We could do a comparison with music. Can we imagine a group that "suffers" a change of 3 singers during the first 3 albums? (Iron Maiden changed 3 singers, but not with that fast pace)

It's not just getting new people. I've seen that happen. The difference is the wild style divergences. When you get a new artist on a DC or Marvel comic, you expect some differences but the broad strokes stay the same.

For Erfworld, they don't try to imitate the former artists, each one of the three does it in their own style, which has it's points, but can also be offputting. At least each artist has finished an entire book before moving on. Cause changing from book 2 art to book 3 would be extremely off-putting.

Bird
2015-02-21, 07:20 AM
This is a business and Rob will sell everything he can to profit from it. When finished, he'll probably sell it as a PDF. Probably taking down the free version first, to further sales. Works for the OOTS pre-equals. [/FONT]
The idea that he'll monetize Book 0 seems reasonable to me, but to be fair, I don't think we have any examples of him removing free content from the website so he could sell it. Also, the OotS prequels are a different model--they were always print-only, never on the website.

Aquillion
2015-02-21, 11:00 AM
Seeing how the text updates suffer from the same problems that the comic ones do (delays and such), the latter seems more than likely.Well, the more recent text updates haven't suffered from so many delays. There was one point where the entire site went radio-silent for an extended period of time, of course, but seems a bit better about it now.

EnragedFilia
2015-02-22, 12:11 AM
We could do a comparison with music. Can we imagine a group that "suffers" a change of 3 singers during the first 3 albums? (Iron Maiden changed 3 singers, but not with that fast pace)

Well, there's Helloween. They added a singer after their first album released, then the lead guitarist (who was also the singer on the first album) left in the middle of touring for their third album. Then the second singer and the original drummer were both replaced after their fifth album. There was also one new guitarist and three new drummers after that, but by then the band was more well established so it's not really the same situation.

And Gamma Ray, which coincidentally was formed by the original singer/guitarist from Helloween, apparently switched drummers after their first album, added a guitarist/keyboardist before their second, and switched both drummers and bassists after the second. And then the original singer left, so that original guitarist took over vocals as well shortly before their fourth album. Unlike Helloween, however, Gamma Ray has kept mostly the same lineup ever since then, only changing drummers once and that very recently, between albums #10 and #11.

Welf
2015-02-22, 05:51 AM
By “management”, i mean the way Rob deal with his co-workers and plan the development of the main comic. Rob is the commander-in-chief, right? Well, we have an artist that draws Erf; at the end of book 1, Rob basically says “there were problems, it’s not my fault, we have to change”; at the end of book 2, again “there were problems, it’s not my fault, we have to change”; book 3 it’s started, and we already have problems…

I had the impression that Rob and Jamie were really a team and developed the world together, even if Rob did do the major part as writer. Back then I was temporarily a Tool and there was audio file for those where they recorded one of their sessions in a restaurant. I think that changed with Xin, because then it became Rob's comic, with Xin only as artist. It was her first big assignment in an established comic, so that is not surprising. And now David is a hired artist with probably not much emotional connection to the comic. I wonder if the core of the problems with the comic nowadays is that there is no one to challenge Rob.


Xin's my favorite too, but I liked Jaime well enough. His style being more whimsical really helped set the mood for this quirky work. Having him come back and replace David would be awesome frankly.

Jamie and Xin have different approaches. Jamie is really good about making very dynamic scenes and creating colourful character designs. The air fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0133.html) between Wanda and Ansom were a good example. Xin's more detailed style (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/165) is at an disadvantage there because there are too many elements that distract a bit from the action.

Aquillion
2015-02-22, 11:33 AM
Man, both those pages reminded me how good those artists were at handling motion and action.

The current artist... not so much.

HalfTangible
2015-02-22, 11:33 AM
I had the impression that Rob and Jamie were really a team and developed the world together, even if Rob did do the major part as writer. Back then I was temporarily a Tool and there was audio file for those where they recorded one of their sessions in a restaurant. I think that changed with Xin, because then it became Rob's comic, with Xin only as artist. It was her first big assignment in an established comic, so that is not surprising. And now David is a hired artist with probably not much emotional connection to the comic. I wonder if the core of the problems with the comic nowadays is that there is no one to challenge Rob.



Jamie and Xin have different approaches. Jamie is really good about making very dynamic scenes and creating colourful character designs. The air fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0133.html) between Wanda and Ansom were a good example. Xin's more detailed style (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/165) is at an disadvantage there because there are too many elements that distract a bit from the action.

Xin's style also tended to have problems when it came to fight scenes, particularly motion and impact. It always looked... off. Stiff, would maybe be the word? The high detail of the characters and the great coloration made up for it, yes, and the book was fairly combat lite compared to the first, but it's still noticeable.

Jamie's style always looked a little rough and dirty to me; It was hard to find Erfworld as 'cute' as Parson insisted it was. But the art grew on me as a distinctive style, and for the most part still did well (though he seemed to have a problem with lips).

Rogar Demonblud
2015-02-22, 12:20 PM
We could do a comparison with music. Can we imagine a group that "suffers" a change of 3 singers during the first 3 albums? (Iron Maiden changed 3 singers, but not with that fast pace)

Blood, Sweat and Tears did pretty much that, and more. It's all on their Wikipedia page. End result? Their 'Greatest Hits' album basically is a distillation of their first two LPs and a few singles. Everything since then? *pthhbbbbt!*

Coidzor
2015-02-22, 04:11 PM
I had the impression that Rob and Jamie were really a team and developed the world together, even if Rob did do the major part as writer. Back then I was temporarily a Tool and there was audio file for those where they recorded one of their sessions in a restaurant. I think that changed with Xin, because then it became Rob's comic, with Xin only as artist. It was her first big assignment in an established comic, so that is not surprising. And now David is a hired artist with probably not much emotional connection to the comic. I wonder if the core of the problems with the comic nowadays is that there is no one to challenge Rob.

That's certainly what I remember of the front presented about book 1, that it was a collaborative effort between the two.

Anteros
2015-02-23, 12:13 AM
I never had any problem with Xin's art style, even during the action scenes. Honestly, her art is what drew me to follow the comic. I probably would have shortly given up on it once it left the playground if not for her.

runeghost
2015-02-23, 01:45 AM
I miss Xin. If I'm going to have an unreliable artist that doesn't get any work done for months at a time anyway. I would really like to have her do the art work. She's by far my favorite of the three.

Same here.

Aquillion
2015-02-23, 01:58 AM
I had the impression that Rob and Jamie were really a team and developed the world together, even if Rob did do the major part as writer. Back then I was temporarily a Tool and there was audio file for those where they recorded one of their sessions in a restaurant. I think that changed with Xin, because then it became Rob's comic, with Xin only as artist. It was her first big assignment in an established comic, so that is not surprising. And now David is a hired artist with probably not much emotional connection to the comic. I wonder if the core of the problems with the comic nowadays is that there is no one to challenge Rob.I don't think it's a matter of anyone needing to challenge him; most people seem happy enough with the direction of what we've seen for the next chapter. I mean, some people complain, but people complained about parts of book 1, too; people will always complain.

I think the problem is mostly that it's really really really hard to do a webcomic regularly when the artist doesn't have a strong vested emotional stake in it, because it's a huge amount of work. Xin did all right at first, but ultimately it wasn't her baby and not something she was going to rearrange her life around when a crisis hit. And I suspect with David it's even worse -- he probably simply didn't realize what he was getting into when he accepted this. I mean, I can understand their situation, and ultimately it's their webcomic so they can do what they like with it, but "oh hey I have to move so we're going to stop for a month, and hey it's harder than I thought so maybe it'll take another month to resume? Or something?" with no noise about what's up is a pretty big goof-up in a web serial environment where the main way to build and retain readers is through consistent updates.

(I also sort of wonder if Rob didn't really want to continue doing it as a webcomic -- I remember the original kickstarter to fund the artist-search had "continues as a regular comic" as a sky-high stretch goal that he didn't really seem to expect to hit, with "text plus some art" as the main goal. Honestly turning it into a web serial with occasional splash pages of art might have been the best thing to do.)

Lethologica
2015-02-23, 02:45 AM
Volume 1's art was a major draw for me, personally. The cartoony style lent the whole affair an appropriately surreal feeling--cute, yet deadly serious.

Mobius Twist
2015-02-23, 08:06 PM
Speaking of David and his absence, Rob posted an update with a "promise".

I've never had a nightmare move, so I can't imagine what that involves. I, for one, suspect wild wolves made off with his internet. How a wolf is able to drive a dump-truck full of tubes is beyond me.

Seerow
2015-02-23, 08:14 PM
Speaking of David and his absence, Rob posted an update with a "promise".

I've never had a nightmare move, so I can't imagine what that involves. I, for one, suspect wild wolves made off with his internet. How a wolf is able to drive a dump-truck full of tubes is beyond me.

My parents once moved into a house literally sitting on top of a sinkhole, without being aware of it until the insurance company contacted them after contracts had been signed and the move was too far underway to stop. And that was only the start of their problems with that move.

They didn't take 2 months off work to get that fixed. I can't imagine a move that is more of a nightmare that does not involve something insane like a gang of highway thieves hijacking the truck carrying everything you own and running halfway across the country.

Mobius Twist
2015-02-23, 09:40 PM
I can't imagine a move that is more of a nightmare that does not involve something insane like a gang of highway thieves hijacking the truck carrying everything you own and running halfway across the country.

Funny story, that. A coworker of mine was moving across the country. His moving company packed all of his family's stuff (aside from the minor things they were carrying on their persons) into a moving truck and left it overnight in the company parking lot. The truck got looted. Everyday things like kitchen utensils and irreplaceable things like the wife's wedding dress; all gone.

He still came to work as soon as he made it over there. The police still haven't recovered his stuff nearly a year later.

Doran
2015-02-24, 06:14 AM
No idea on the delays, but I can guess it probably it isn't the actual physical move. Could be legal troubles - sold one house moved and the owners refused to surrender the keys, or could be financial troubles (selling the old house fell through) or could be getting family members sorted out and set up. Or it could be the physical move, and all his art supplies were damaged.

I'm no bootlicker (e.g. I hope a 3-4 week buffer get built up again ala Gunnerkrigg Court, and would like to see much more in the Toolbox), but I do feel people on this forum are reacting a bit over the top to life troubles causing late updates.

I just subscribe via RSS or email to avoid frustration on webcomics, and there are things out there that have gone far longer on hiatus and started up again - e.g. Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, or Captain SNES, or Prequel Quest.

TheWombatOfDoom
2015-02-24, 07:26 AM
No idea on the delays, but I can guess it probably it isn't the actual physical move. Could be legal troubles - sold one house moved and the owners refused to surrender the keys, or could be financial troubles (selling the old house fell through) or could be getting family members sorted out and set up. Or it could be the physical move, and all his art supplies were damaged.

I'm no bootlicker (e.g. I hope a 3-4 week buffer get built up again ala Gunnerkrigg Court, and would like to see much more in the Toolbox), but I do feel people on this forum are reacting a bit over the top to life troubles causing late updates.

I just subscribe via RSS or email to avoid frustration on webcomics, and there are things out there that have gone far longer on hiatus and started up again - e.g. Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, or Captain SNES, or Prequel Quest.

I agree. I think its generally because this has happened often over an over in the history of Erfworld, so overall, people are a little frustrated (or more than a little in some cases). They've heard similar song and dances, so they think that its the same song and dance again.

At this point, I'm just happy it isn't complete radio silence this time. And hope everything is okay with those involved.

ryuplaneswalker
2015-02-24, 08:14 AM
My parents once moved into a house literally sitting on top of a sinkhole, without being aware of it until the insurance company contacted them after contracts had been signed and the move was too far underway to stop. And that was only the start of their problems with that move.

They didn't take 2 months off work to get that fixed. I can't imagine a move that is more of a nightmare that does not involve something insane like a gang of highway thieves hijacking the truck carrying everything you own and running halfway across the country.

Well Dave is an artist, if say his moving truck got looted..and all his art stuff got nabbed that could be something of a pain in the rump to deal with.

Lentrax
2015-02-24, 03:20 PM
I was stationed over at Rammstein Air Base for a couple of years. On my move home, we had to leave the final loading of our belongings to my squadronmates. To this day, I do not know what happened, but I got everything back except:

My wife's wedding dress
My Lego collection
Thirteen James Bond Movies
The drums for my Playstation
The leaves to my table


Most of these, I can understand, but the leaves to my table? Why not just 'lose' the whole table and not just the leaves? I mean seriously.

Killer Angel
2015-02-24, 03:54 PM
Most of these, I can understand, but the leaves to my table? Why not just 'lose' the whole table and not just the leaves? I mean seriously.

Obviously, they were removed to pack them more efficiently. And probably they were shipped with another aircraft, because military logic.

Welf
2015-02-24, 04:36 PM
Speaking of David and his absence, Rob posted an update with a "promise".

I've never had a nightmare move, so I can't imagine what that involves. I, for one, suspect wild wolves made off with his internet. How a wolf is able to drive a dump-truck full of tubes is beyond me.

No one can imagine that. That is why the wolves get away with it every time.

reignofevil
2015-02-24, 05:05 PM
Does anybody remember if that Motion Comic for book one ever happened? I see a news update on the kickstarter page saying that it has stalled out completely as of two years ago but there have been a few backer updates since then and I wanna know if anything is happening with it.

Synar
2015-02-24, 05:16 PM
We know book 0 isn't finished because Rob hasn't monetized it yet. Rob did not write out all those words and have actual ART for every page without a plan to sell it later on. That is just not how he does things. To think otherwise is to not understand his mentality with this venture.

All those short stories he wrote, like Jillian meeting Don? They went into the book one and two. He doesn't keep them website exclusive.

Then look at the backer stories. Most of those don't have any art at all and he got paid to write them. Do you really think he would just be posting book 0 out of the goodness of his heart to give readers something to read while waiting for the comic to start up again?

This is a business and Rob will sell everything he can to profit from it. When finished, he'll probably sell it as a PDF. Probably taking down the free version first, to further sales. Works for the OOTS pre-equals.

The most obvious continuation of the story is to give details on the fall of Faq. We know the general story, enough that it doesn't need to be elaborated on in the comic, but there are plenty of details that can be filled out.


It's really mind boggling how much trouble rob has gotten into with his artists. Three major changes over the course of three books. I can't think of another webcomic that has had that happen.

Given Thunt's card game troubles and how Rob has been screwed over by past people he's dealt with, such as his trouble making the new website and such. I have to wonder if this artist really is on the up and up or if he got paid in advance and then walked off. Another poster mentioned that possibility in Erf forums and it seems plausible to me. Especially if he was paid up front.

It's annoying. There are tons of professional artists out there. Manga artists do 18 pages a WEEK. not colored and the panels tend to be larger but STILL. Those people slave over their work and don't tend to get 3 month breaks unless something seriously bad happens. They don't get holidays off either. All the guy has to do is draw two pages. Better if it's three so he can build a buffer, and that's it.

He's being paid, probably was paid in advance. I can't imagine why someone that needed two kickstarters before he would agree to work would show such a lack of professionalism. I really hope we get a proper explanation because Rob raised expectations extremely high only to end up with the same old problems.

Delays, broken promises, and lack of communication for long periods.


Are you seriously complaining that Erfworld is not website exclusive? Are you seriously complaining that an author is selling books? Are you for real complaining that he does not get you exclusive material for free pour tes beaux yeux?
I mean, sure, exclusive content is a pretty common practice for webcomic authors. Exlusive book content, that is. Not the opposite. Certainly not the opposite. Never, ever, the opposite.
Especially considering that the kickstarter backers content is not kickstarter (or backer) exclusive, which would be pretty standard, I really don't see what you are complaining about or where you are coming from.
Unless, of course, you prefer Spinerette kind of buisness model (half of the story is book exclusive, for those chapters only incentives are posted),
or you hate the Giant for selling the OOTS books (spoiler : and even prequels exlusive to the books, oh my gosh).



Also, text updates are pretty long and wordy, so I myself find the rate at which Rob write them to be pretty impressive, with a few mishaps here and then. It's the rate at which comics are drawn that is pretty pathethic (or is the problem that no one is currently drawing it? This is what I suspect.).


And serialized mangakas? They don't work alone, but in team of up to ten artists.
Of course they produce more content than one lone freelancer artist. It's obvious and absolutely not surprising, but holding one single artist to such standarts is surreal.
Also, they get a steady income and don't give their material for free. But hey, detail.


EDIT: Sorry, wrote that answer yesterday, could not post cause no internet, please disregard any outdated information.

ryuplaneswalker
2015-02-24, 05:45 PM
Obviously, they were removed to pack them more efficiently. And probably they were shipped with another aircraft, because military logic.

"Hmm this one says Leaves? I wonder what that means"

"It is obviously a secret prototype weapon, so it has to go to Iraq"

"OKAY!"

Mobius Twist
2015-02-24, 06:16 PM
Clearly, they were in a hurry and only wrote "Leave". Which, upon reading the note, they did.

Doran
2015-02-24, 08:07 PM
Does anybody remember if that Motion Comic for book one ever happened? I see a news update on the kickstarter page saying that it has stalled out completely as of two years ago but there have been a few backer updates since then and I wanna know if anything is happening with it.

Yup unfortunately it fell through.

As a backer of it, I got a pm from Rob explaining the sucky situation, and offering either a refund (of the dvd only, I got my other stuff), or to wait and get it when they tried again. I elected to wait and see.





snip
snip


Oh yay, the webcomic read for free vs entitlement vs merchandise argument.

I'm sure we haven't had this for every webcomic ever.

It goes round and round in circles, and we never get anywhere until the thing burns itself out AGAIN (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InternetBackdraft).

In another topic, what did people think of Rob's Forecastle work vs his earlier Book 0 stuff?

I think he seems to be hitting out of the park with characterisation. but the jump to flashback was a bit oddly placed in the action. I agree with people in the Erfworld forum that the flashback change should have occurred after the enemy ships had been driven out of the hex.

I'm wondering if that could be a perk in the toolbox - you get Rob's 'first draft' for comments, or get updates a couple of days early, but it'd probably just leak or cause all discussion to happen twice.

Kornaki
2015-02-24, 10:41 PM
I'm wondering if that could be a perk in the toolbox - you get Rob's 'first draft' for comments, or get updates a couple of days early, but it'd probably just leak or cause all discussion to happen twice.

If you could leave comments for Rob but there was no permissible forum on the website for talking with other Tools about it, it could work.

Killer Angel
2015-02-25, 07:09 AM
Clearly, they were in a hurry and only wrote "Leave". Which, upon reading the note, they did.

I like this theory. It works even better if they weren't in a hurry... they carefully packed the leaves separately, so 2 packages: "leave" and "leave". :smallbiggrin:

Landis963
2015-02-27, 08:33 AM
New update, as promised.

I suspect that this "return to roots, wisdom comes from the Titans" business is Tramennis' jumping-off point for the reforms that he knows will be necessary if they want to play at the same table as the Charlies and Parsons of the world, let alone compete with them.

Killer Angel
2015-02-27, 08:58 AM
Nice city...

and apparently, another dead volcano! :smalltongue:

Bird
2015-02-27, 09:49 AM
Agreed, city looks nice.

Trammenis's speech remind anybody else of King Banhammer--especially the the idealism and the "time for wisdom" stuff?

I see Trammenis as a much more practical character than Banhammer, though. I wonder how much of the speech reflected how he feels, and how much is a performance.

Spojaz
2015-02-27, 10:07 AM
We have been previously introduced to capital sites, like what Forecastle and Jillian made their kingdoms on. I'm pretty sure what makes them special is that they are places the titans have deemed epic enough to have a final battle at. They will very likely be the location of a side's demise or come-from-behind victory after all.

Makes sense that they would share some, ahem, less common geographical characteristics (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheVeryDefinitelyFinalDungeon). (warning tvtropes)

Razade
2015-02-28, 01:08 AM
I'm sure people have mentioned it in the past but he art for characters in this update really really bugs me. It's just so crude.

Bird
2015-02-28, 09:51 AM
Just looked more closely at the final panel--I think the archon on the left is Daria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daria).

Aquillion
2015-02-28, 10:21 AM
I'm sure people have mentioned it in the past but he art for characters in this update really really bugs me. It's just so crude.Honestly, I would rather just get text updates with occasional pictures (especially since we would presumably get them faster.)

Coidzor
2015-03-01, 03:35 AM
We have been previously introduced to capital sites, like what Forecastle and Jillian made their kingdoms on. I'm pretty sure what makes them special is that they are places the titans have deemed epic enough to have a final battle at.

We didn't really see much of that for the capital of Goodminton. Haffaton either, but we only had a fugitive's eye view of the place.


They will very likely be the location of a side's demise or come-from-behind victory after all.


Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy, that, considering what capitals are. :smalltongue:

Douglas
2015-03-01, 03:43 AM
Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy, that, considering what capitals are. :smalltongue:
I think that was the point. Because they are capitals, they will be the site of climactic battles that determine the fate of an entire side. Because they would likely be the site of such battles, the Titans wanted them to have suitably "epic battle" appropriate appearances.

Miklus
2015-03-01, 04:56 AM
Just looked more closely at the final panel--I think the archon on the left is Daria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daria).

Nice catch. Who is the redhead then? Daphne from scoopy-do? Or am I just hoping that? :smallredface:

Bird
2015-03-01, 06:25 AM
Nice catch. Who is the redhead then? Daphne from scoopy-do? Or am I just hoping that? :smallredface:
The hair + neckerchief + body language would all seem to support that proposition.

-D-
2015-03-01, 07:38 AM
I like the Royal gun scepter. Very shick and deadly. Also Trammenis looks more haggard. I wonder what is happening with his Signamancy. Romans were mostly clean shaven, no?

HandofShadows
2015-03-01, 08:06 AM
I like the Royal gun scepter. Very shick and deadly. Also Trammenis looks more haggard. I wonder what is happening with his Signamancy. Romans were mostly clean shaven, no?

Yeah, the Romans (in general) didn't like body hair other than on your head. (Some people would have almost all their body hair plucked out. OUCH!) They considered beards and lots of body hair to be barbaric/uncivilized.

Rogar Demonblud
2015-03-01, 01:49 PM
Nice catch. Who is the redhead then? Daphne from Scooby-Doo? Or am I just hoping that? :smallredface:

Given that Charlie seems to like sets, those would be Daphne and Velma.

EnragedFilia
2015-03-01, 04:29 PM
Given that Charlie seems to like sets, those would be Daphne and Velma.

Alternately, it could be Daria and Quinn. both (http://epguides.com/Daria/cast.jpg) their poses (http://cdn.buzznet.com/assets/imgx/2/1/2/3/4/9/0/3/orig-21234903.jpg) seem to be copied from something or other. Also, Velma's glasses have always been square rather than round, and her hair never reaches her shoulders. Daphne's hair, meanwhile, is generally not quite that straight.

Did we get to see who the captured Archon is when she was captured, by the way? I don't remember real well.

Rogar Demonblud
2015-03-01, 06:16 PM
She was named Lillith in one of the Epilogue text posts. She was working on seducing the !Hawkeye Healomancer.

Shogo
2015-03-02, 05:32 AM
As someone who was a fan of the series Daria, I can state with confidence that those two Archons are based on Daria and Quinn.

With the exception of the hat and neckerchief, her outfit is just Daria's outfit in Charlescomm colors. She's even wearing boots instead of heels.

Bird
2015-03-02, 09:24 AM
New one (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/45) is up.

The Jetstonian architecture continues to be my favorite stuff, art-wise, from this book.

Landis963
2015-03-02, 10:12 AM
I'm wondering what Tramennis is playing at, exactly. Obviously an Archon on payroll would be a great asset, but there's more going on here than that.

Radar
2015-03-02, 10:19 AM
I'm wondering what Tramennis is playing at, exactly. Obviously an Archon on payroll would be a great asset, but there's more going on here than that.
Insider information on Gobwin Knob and Charlescomm most likely.

Aquillion
2015-03-02, 10:25 AM
He's breaking a deal with Charlie by offering it, though. More specifically, he's breaking his father's ditto's deal, which is probably going to be his justification for why he can do this in the first place, but it's going to piss off Charlie just the same.

Bird
2015-03-02, 10:32 AM
I wonder what the chances are

That Lilith turns out to be the lynchpin of the "connection-between-an-arkentool-and-its-agents-can-be-broken" thing. We know that Parson is going to try to break the link between the dish and the archons, or Charlie will try to break the hammer's or the pliers' link, or both.

Maybe an archon who used to be linked to a tool but no longer is would be an important test subject for figuring this out? (Assuming she turns to Jetstone, which she may not do.)

Also, I could imagine her playing a big role in the negotiations when GK/Ansom try to ally with Jetstone against Charlie.

Landis963
2015-03-02, 10:38 AM
He's breaking a deal with Charlie by offering it, though. More specifically, he's breaking his father's ditto's deal, which is probably going to be his justification for why he can do this in the first place, but it's going to piss off Charlie just the same.

It's pretty well established that Tramennis doesn't trust Charlie one bit, however. I wouldn't be surprised if he considered Charlie's deal with his father's ditto to be nothing more than emotional coercion.

NEO|Phyte
2015-03-02, 10:43 AM
Was an archon handover an actual deal that was made, or just an extra bounty for a live capture?

slayerx
2015-03-02, 12:00 PM
He's breaking a deal with Charlie by offering it, though. More specifically, he's breaking his father's ditto's deal, which is probably going to be his justification for why he can do this in the first place, but it's going to piss off Charlie just the same.

Assuming there WAS a deal. First, Charlie put out a bounty on them, he didn't make a contract with Slately. Second, we don't know if the Gem Slately recieved was for ONLY the archons he dusted, or if Charlie paid upfront for the archon. If Charlie has yet to pay for that archon, then Trem is under no obligation to hand her over. He is free to collect on the bounty, or refuse it. If charlie did pay upfront but did not sign a contract over the archon, then Trem STILL doesn't need to hand her over... at most he'd have to pay him back the bounty, but without a contract, he may not even HAVE to do that.

Killer Angel
2015-03-02, 03:42 PM
Interesting.
Ossomer had a huge link with his previous side, which was the leverage of the whole "turning back to jetstone".
Lilith has nothing similar toward Jetstone, but self-preservation in front of life danger (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/169) (for example, if Tramennis threatens to execute her), may be a powerful element.

Coidzor
2015-03-02, 06:28 PM
As someone who was a fan of the series Daria, I can state with confidence that those two Archons are based on Daria and Quinn.

With the exception of the hat and neckerchief, her outfit is just Daria's outfit in Charlescomm colors. She's even wearing boots instead of heels.

It is an interesting departure from what had before seemed to be a rule of Archons having the signamancy of "sexy" or even "sexpot" characters, though.

Kornaki
2015-03-02, 06:39 PM
This isn't necessarily breaking Charlie's deal, I think this might be Charlie's deal. Charlie's interested in getting the archon to turn; turning to Jetstone might accomplish all of his goals (getting information from her, confirming that archons are capable of turning, etc.). I think we need more information before we can definitively state one way or the other.

Landis963
2015-03-03, 01:20 AM
This isn't necessarily breaking Charlie's deal, I think this might be Charlie's deal. Charlie's interested in getting the archon to turn; turning to Jetstone might accomplish all of his goals (getting information from her, confirming that archons are capable of turning, etc.). I think we need more information before we can definitively state one way or the other.

I don't think Charlie's reaction will make a difference in this regard: He's capable of convincing people the moon is Charlescomm blue if if serves his aims. If he's outwardly grateful, he could very easily be making betrayal contingencies. In fact I can't really think of good reasons to be hostile to Jetstone, regardless of the outcome of this particular choice.

The Glyphstone
2015-03-03, 03:22 AM
I assumed Charlie's primary intent, matching his central motivation of information/information control was to 'reclaim' the Decrypted archons for security reasons. He's too smart not to expect some of his secrets that the Archons know to have been leaked to their new side, but plugging those leaks wherever possible can only help. Being able to turn them back to his allegiance would be a bonus, and fit with his secondary motivation of profit by way of an Archon he no longer has to pay upkeep for.

Thus, Lilith turning to Jetstone serves neither goal, and while Charlie may still find some means of extracting value from the situation, I can't imagine him being happy with that outcome on any level.

HalfTangible
2015-03-03, 09:46 AM
I assumed Charlie's primary intent, matching his central motivation of information/information control was to 'reclaim' the Decrypted archons for security reasons. He's too smart not to expect some of his secrets that the Archons know to have been leaked to their new side, but plugging those leaks wherever possible can only help. Being able to turn them back to his allegiance would be a bonus, and fit with his secondary motivation of profit by way of an Archon he no longer has to pay upkeep for.

Thus, Lilith turning to Jetstone serves neither goal, and while Charlie may still find some means of extracting value from the situation, I can't imagine him being happy with that outcome on any level.

Especially since Charlie paid for the Archon in advance.

-D-
2015-03-03, 11:27 AM
Especially since Charlie paid for the Archon in advance.
Did he? I'm not sure he has. Jetstone sacrificed their heir to name Trammenis a heir.

HalfTangible
2015-03-03, 11:32 AM
Did he? I'm not sure he has. Jetstone sacrificed their heir to name Trammenis a heir.

Yes. Yes he did.

Charlie specifically stated that collecting 'the full bounty' (ie, capturing an Archon) would be enough to designate Traemennis heir. We saw in Charlie's talk with Slately that the payment was given in advance. Jetstone sacrificed its heir to trap Parson. We've been told that making a warlord an heir costs more turns, not more Schmuckers. In fact, I don't think any units other than natural allies have been stated to require schmuckers to create units, just to maintain them.

Aquillion
2015-03-06, 04:23 AM
New page. Interesting.

When you think about it, her reaction makes sense -- she's still loyal to both Wanda / Gobwin Knob and to Charlie. Doing this allows her to satisfy both loyalties; she negotiated as beneficial a deal for Gobwin Knob as she could while returning to Charlie. Turning to Jetstone, meanwhile, has no actual value for her except as a bargaining chip.

Killer Angel
2015-03-06, 07:39 AM
Very nice development, indeed.

...and Charlie's treasury is really well equipped!

HandofShadows
2015-03-06, 08:08 AM
Did Lilith just figure out a way to screw Charlie to the benefit of Jetstone and GK? IIRC the deal Parson made was for all the prisoners. Wouldn't that include Lilith?

ryuplaneswalker
2015-03-06, 08:20 AM
Did Lilith just figure out a way to screw Charlie to the benefit of Jetstone and GK? IIRC the deal Parson made was for all the prisoners. Wouldn't that include Lilith?

Not only did she screw charlie to the benefit of Jetstone and GK, her actions can't be viewed by Tremannis as "bound to charlie" because she is returning to Charlie while sending a large sum to GK.

This Archon has my approval, she battles with Cunning.

HalfTangible
2015-03-06, 11:32 AM
I really hope we see more of Lilith. She's one clever little demon.

... also, I wonder if Wanda and Maggie are going to link up again to see through Lilith's eyes.

On a different note: WOW the art is bad here. I mean, Titan's tonsils...

Aidjn
2015-03-06, 11:44 AM
That knight/guard reminds me of Brienne.

Rogar Demonblud
2015-03-06, 12:05 PM
I really hope we see more of Lilith. She's one clever little demon.

... also, I wonder if Wanda and Maggie are going to link up again to see through Lilith's eyes.

On a different note: WOW the art is bad here. I mean, Titan's tonsils...

Wanda can already see through her eyes. Also, IIRC the prisoner exchange explicitly excluded the Archon, as she was part of a previous deal.

And now people have a very good idea how desperate Charlie is to keep hold of his secrets. S150,000 for one unit.

Legato Endless
2015-03-06, 12:11 PM
I really hope we see more of Lilith. She's one clever little demon.

... also, I wonder if Wanda and Maggie are going to link up again to see through Lilith's eyes.

On a different note: WOW the art is bad here. I mean, Titan's tonsils...

Wanda can do that just by concentrating. What would be terrible for Charlie is if she's able to do this, giving Parson his scout, and then Maggie shares that information with Parson, who could actually comprehend the implications of what Lilith is seeing.

Edit: Ninja'd

Aquillion
2015-03-06, 12:14 PM
It does make me wonder where her story is headed, though. It'd be odd to go through all this focus on her, then have her turn back to Charlie and have nothing happen as a result, so presumably there's more to it -- either Charlie fails to get or hold her in the end, or she has some additional role to play.

Presumably Charlie's Secrets will get revealed eventually, but I'm still a bit annoyed that Parson didn't get them from the Archons when he had the chance -- I would have assumed they were thoroughly debriefed for any remotely relevant information on their former side.

MReav
2015-03-06, 12:36 PM
It does make me wonder where her story is headed, though. It'd be odd to go through all this focus on her, then have her turn back to Charlie and have nothing happen as a result, so presumably there's more to it -- either Charlie fails to get or hold her in the end, or she has some additional role to play.

Presumably Charlie's Secrets will get revealed eventually, but I'm still a bit annoyed that Parson didn't get them from the Archons when he had the chance -- I would have assumed they were thoroughly debriefed for any remotely relevant information on their former side.

I'm pretty sure Parson did. It's just that Charlie is notoriously tight-lipped even with his Archons.

Lethologica
2015-03-06, 01:01 PM
It does make me wonder where her story is headed, though. It'd be odd to go through all this focus on her, then have her turn back to Charlie and have nothing happen as a result, so presumably there's more to it -- either Charlie fails to get or hold her in the end, or she has some additional role to play.

Presumably Charlie's Secrets will get revealed eventually, but I'm still a bit annoyed that Parson didn't get them from the Archons when he had the chance -- I would have assumed they were thoroughly debriefed for any remotely relevant information on their former side.
This was as close to a debriefing as they got. (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/25) I got the impression that there weren't too many more secrets the Archons could spill (e.g. "guessing [the Arkendish's] other functions was a favorite topic among the Archons").

HandofShadows
2015-03-06, 01:11 PM
I really hope we see more of Lilith. She's one clever little demon.

... also, I wonder if Wanda and Maggie are going to link up again to see through Lilith's eyes.

On a different note: WOW the art is bad here. I mean, Titan's tonsils...

(Thinks) Could Lilith KNOW that and is placing herself in this position? :smalleek::smallbiggrin: If that's correct clever does not cover it.

Porthos
2015-03-06, 10:53 PM
"Get everything in writing this time."

Ah, yes, someone who is intimately familiar with Charlie's MO. :smallsmile:

Not much else to say here, except to wonder just what is Lilith's angle here. She seems to be a tricksy one, so I think I'll hold off on much speculation.

===

There is something I saw over at the Erfworld forums (http://forums.erfworld.com/viewtopic.php?p=129749&sid=c362169fae52ee8f8d7cb0ac35a87caf#p129749), tho, that piqued my interest:



And from what I can understand of the G-String encryption, Charlie is not a G-String Player to the magnitude of the Great Minds That Think Alike.

Encryption. Decryption. Hmmm...

"Hmmmm", indeed. Having 'Encryption' undo the effects of Decryption would be a very Erfworld type thing, wouldn't it?

Gonna ponder on that one for a while.

EnragedFilia
2015-03-06, 10:59 PM
That knight/guard reminds me of Brienne.

The one from the show, yes. The descriptions given in the books are quite different (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Brienne_of_Tarth.jpg), however.

As for the purpose of the update itself, it could also be a segue into watching Tramennis manage Jetstone for a little while. That way the PoV focus can start rotating between Parson, Jillian/Albert/Vinny, Tramennis, and maybe Don or Caesar or somebody else once in a while. Because how can we follow all the action without a recurring PoV character on every major side involved?

Landis963
2015-03-06, 11:25 PM
The one from the show, yes. The descriptions given in the books are quite different (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Brienne_of_Tarth.jpg), however.

As for the purpose of the update itself, it could also be a segue into watching Tramennis manage Jetstone for a little while. That way the PoV focus can start rotating between Parson, Jillian/Albert/Vinny, Tramennis, and maybe Don or Caesar or somebody else once in a while. Because how can we follow all the action without a recurring PoV character on every major side involved?

Funny, that fanart bears an astonishing resemblance to Zoe Wanamaker. And I'd be totally fine with watching Tramennis rule Jetstone for a while, he's a pretty cool dude.

Anteros
2015-03-07, 01:59 PM
The one from the show, yes. The descriptions given in the books are quite different (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Brienne_of_Tarth.jpg), however.

As for the purpose of the update itself, it could also be a segue into watching Tramennis manage Jetstone for a little while. That way the PoV focus can start rotating between Parson, Jillian/Albert/Vinny, Tramennis, and maybe Don or Caesar or somebody else once in a while. Because how can we follow all the action without a recurring PoV character on every major side involved?


I think it's more that we need a major character on every side so that we identify with them when the story inevitably brings them together against a common enemy.

Also, I'm still having a hard time with this art. Half of those characters are barely recognizable.

ryuplaneswalker
2015-03-07, 02:22 PM
"Get everything in writing this time."

Ah, yes, someone who is intimately familiar with Charlie's MO. :smallsmile:

Not much else to say here, except to wonder just what is Lilith's angle here. She seems to be a tricksy one, so I think I'll hold off on much speculation.

===

There is something I saw over at the Erfworld forums (http://forums.erfworld.com/viewtopic.php?p=129749&sid=c362169fae52ee8f8d7cb0ac35a87caf#p129749), tho, that piqued my interest:



"Hmmmm", indeed. Having 'Encryption' undo the effects of Decryption would be a very Erfworld type thing, wouldn't it?

Gonna ponder on that one for a while.

There is a Lewd joke in there about Archons and Backdoors to be made, but I have no idea of the wording of it!

HalfTangible
2015-03-07, 03:10 PM
I think it's more that we need a major character on every side so that we identify with them when the story inevitably brings them together against a common enemy.

Also, I'm still having a hard time with this art. Half of those characters are barely recognizable.

I'll be honest with ya: I'm not expecting this series to have an overall good or bad guy - just people that Parson needs to fight and overcome. The closest thing we've got to a big bad is Charlie, and even then we've been getting hints that he's got some big evil of his own to fight.

Traeminnis is a character that I fully expect Parson to get onto his side at some point down the line. It's been hinted (and in a few cases outright stated) that he's far more open to negotiation and/or alliance with GK than any of the other royal sides. Lillith's move to get Jetstone a massive, tidy sum and to get her own side the same amount probably isn't going to hurt that impression either.

The situation in Transylvito is also one I expect Parson to get involved in. Caesar isn't an idiot, I doubt he's going to strike at Don King without at least some kind of help. And considering that continuing to fight GK is what got his side into its current mess, he's probably open to making them his ally.

Lizard Lord
2015-03-07, 08:52 PM
I suspect the big bad of Erfworld to be Erfworld itself and/or the Titans.

EnragedFilia
2015-03-08, 01:10 AM
Parson's line about "being railroaded by two different GMs" could be taken to indicate that Erfworld is itself a representation of a game campaign being played by higher-dimensional beings or some such (yes, like in Star Ocean 3).

ryuplaneswalker
2015-03-08, 03:06 AM
I suspect the big bad of Erfworld to be Erfworld itself and/or the Titans.

A Titan who lost the gem off his cape, which caused his group to lose their themed costume contest at the Titanic Halloween Bash.

Why do I say that?

Because there is something more powerful than Fate, the fact that Erfworld hates everything that lives in it. Including the Titans that made it.

halfeye
2015-03-08, 05:41 AM
I think the Titans were kids, look how they spoke (gobwin, spidew, dwagon), by now they'll have grown up a bit.

MReav
2015-03-08, 09:06 AM
I think the Titans were kids, look how they spoke (gobwin, spidew, dwagon), by now they'll have grown up a bit.

That or they had an Axe-Cop situation.

Yana
2015-03-09, 06:44 PM
New Update:

King Trammenis certainly knows the best way to end these court sessions.

Fjolnir
2015-03-09, 07:00 PM
yep, by utilizing the royal sceptre of jetstone

Lentrax
2015-03-10, 02:19 AM
So, Wanda was seeing the session. Interesting. Suppose she'll tell Parson a Decrypted turned to Charlescomm? I think that'll piss him off to no end. And he will obsess over how much she can tell Charlie about what they know.

Bird
2015-03-10, 02:31 AM
Well, I misread that page horribly.

Because of Wanda's (literal) veil, I thought for a moment that Jack & she were both in Jetstone, which confused the frak out of me. It seemed like the grey fuzzy effect in panel one was because of her her headgear.

Welf
2015-03-10, 04:36 AM
It took me a moment too till I figured it was the veil.

Jack is strangely amicable. No jokes or teases. Very scary.

I wonder if Wanda still can see through the Archon's eyes after she has turned.

Killer Angel
2015-03-10, 07:26 AM
Nice outfit... less gorgeous than some of Wanda's battle suits. :smallwink:

Calemyr
2015-03-10, 10:00 AM
Jack's move here is pretty simple. He wants to make sure he remains as autonomous as possible, knowing that Wanda at times despises him and/or wants to dominate him. He's showing he can and will be useful to her if he is allowed to remain "Jack", rather than reduced to "disposable soulless minion in a nice hat". He's decrypted now, after all, and given the kind of "small changes" she's capable of making to him, he's not wrong to be worried. You'd have to be stupid not to be worried about Wanda having control over you.

I think Lillith's gambit is a big win for Parson. As a decrypted allied with Jetstone, she can act as a mediator (or a spy?) between Tremennis and Parson, if only by giving Trem a new perspective on the Eldritch abomination responsible for GK's sudden resurgence. Trem was fascinated with Parson to begin with, that's certainly not going to have changed at this point. A truce or even alliance between the two sides is quite possible given that scenario. Plus Charlescomm didn't get their hands on a decryptid and lost some face in the process, both wins in GK's book.

Rogar Demonblud
2015-03-10, 10:30 AM
Reread the strip. Lilith didn't turn to Jetstone. She used the threat of turning to Jetstone to extract an additional S150,000 from Charlie.

Calemyr
2015-03-10, 10:48 AM
Reread the strip. Lilith didn't turn to Jetstone. She used the threat of turning to Jetstone to extract an additional S150,000 from Charlie.

I reread the strip several times over. My first impression was that she just negotiated Jetstone and GK a cool 75k each. But then I noticed the Archon's line: "Your majesty, your terms are... minimally acceptable." Tremennis's terms were to refund Charlescomm the 25k for the live capture and keep Lillith for himself. Lillith made a demand that, either because it was too expensive or profited GK of all places or for some third reason that isn't immediately obvious, Charlescomm wasn't prepared to agree to.

Either way is a pretty big loss for Charlie, honestly. Either he pays the one rival he actually fears another 75k or he caves on a deal (informal as it was) and loses his chance to dissect (metaphorically or literally) a decrypted. Lillith learned well from her creator, she wins either way.

BRC
2015-03-10, 10:56 AM
I reread the strip several times over. My first impression was that she just negotiated Jetstone and GK a cool 75k each. But then I noticed the Archon's line: "Your majesty, your terms are... minimally acceptable." Tremennis's terms were to refund Charlescomm the 25k for the live capture and keep Lillith for himself. Lillith made a demand that, either because it was too expensive or profited GK of all places or for some third reason that isn't immediately obvious, Charlescomm wasn't prepared to agree to.

Either way is a pretty big loss for Charlie, honestly. Either he pays the one rival he actually fears another 75k or he caves on a deal (informal as it was) and loses his chance to dissect (metaphorically or literally) a decrypted. Lillith learned well from her creator, she wins either way.
No, the line is "Those Terms are...Minimally Acceptable"

"Those Terms", not "Your Terms", implying they're talking about Lillith's terms, not Tremennis's.

That said, I don't think Tremennis really wanted to keep Lillith. Yeah, Archons are powerful, but he wanted money.

Instead, what I think he really wanted to do was experiment with the nature of the Decrypted units. Are they free willed? Are they capable of Turning against their mistress?

That said, I doubt it. Lillith knows Charlie. I doubt it's a coincidence that the number she proposed happens to be the upper limit of what Charlie is willing to pay.

Calemyr
2015-03-10, 11:05 AM
No, the line is "Those Terms are...Minimally Acceptable"

"Those Terms", not "Your Terms", implying they're talking about Lillith's terms, not Tremennis's.

That said, I don't think Tremennis really wanted to keep Lillith. Yeah, Archons are powerful, but he wanted money.

Instead, what I think he really wanted to do was experiment with the nature of the Decrypted units. Are they free willed? Are they capable of Turning against their mistress?

That said, I doubt it. Lillith knows Charlie. I doubt it's a coincidence that the number she proposed happens to be the upper limit of what Charlie is willing to pay.

My bad. Either way is good by me, but I would have preferred her hang join Jetstone. Anything that give Tremennis more screen time to be an intelligent ruler is a boon.

Lentrax
2015-03-10, 11:06 AM
I reread the strip several times over. My first impression was that she just negotiated Jetstone and GK a cool 75k each. But then I noticed the Archon's line: "Your majesty, your terms are... minimally acceptable." Tremennis's terms were to refund Charlescomm the 25k for the live capture and keep Lillith for himself. Lillith made a demand that, either because it was too expensive or profited GK of all places or for some third reason that isn't immediately obvious, Charlescomm wasn't prepared to agree to.

Either way is a pretty big loss for Charlie, honestly. Either he pays the one rival he actually fears another 75k or he caves on a deal (informal as it was) and loses his chance to dissect (metaphorically or literally) a decrypted. Lillith learned well from her creator, she wins either way.

Except for one critical huge thing.

Charlie got an Archon. A Decrypted Archon.

A Decrypted Gobwin Knob Archon.

Lilith probably could have pumped Charlie for another few thousand Shmuckers. Charlie's Rule 15 applies here I think, in this case the thing that is more important than money is information.

HandofShadows
2015-03-10, 12:10 PM
But Parson has a SPY inside Charlie's camp (even if he does not know it yet.)

Lentrax
2015-03-10, 03:09 PM
Does he, though? Because all we know of Charlescomm is that there is Charlie, his Archons, and a few assorted golems. So, if you are talking about Lillith, she turned. Her Loyalty has switched to Charlescomm. So she can't betray that, except for her Duty, which due to the Arkenpliers is most likely to Wanda. So I kind of expect that Charlie will get the information he can from Lillith and then (re)croak her.

HalfTangible
2015-03-10, 03:26 PM
Does he, though? Because all we know of Charlescomm is that there is Charlie, his Archons, and a few assorted golems. So, if you are talking about Lillith, she turned. Her Loyalty has switched to Charlescomm. So she can't betray that, except for her Duty, which due to the Arkenpliers is most likely to Wanda. So I kind of expect that Charlie will get the information he can from Lillith and then (re)croak her.

Incorrect.

Lillith didn't turn to Charlescomm - she was offered a chance to turn to Jetstone, but is going to Charlescomm as a prisoner.

Further, as we have seen, it is perfectly possible to break a Decrypted unit's loyalty to Wanda. And the Arkendish/Charlie are heavily revered by the Archons, meaning there's probably some similar trick with the dish to ensure Archon loyalty.

Jasdoif
2015-03-10, 04:12 PM
Further, as we have seen, it is perfectly possible to break a Decrypted unit's loyalty to Wanda. And the Arkendish/Charlie are heavily revered by the Archons, meaning there's probably some similar trick with the dish to ensure Archon loyalty.Hmm....So if Wanda's ability to see through the eyes of Decrypted Archons is due to being attuned to the Arkenpliers, rather than because they're units of the same side....Will Wanda still be able to see what Lilith sees if Lilith should turn; and if so, does Lilith herself know that to be able to reveal it? Or is Lilith an unwitting recon unit for Wanda?

Lentrax
2015-03-10, 04:24 PM
Incorrect.

Lillith didn't turn to Charlescomm - she was offered a chance to turn to Jetstone, but is going to Charlescomm as a prisoner.

Further, as we have seen, it is perfectly possible to break a Decrypted unit's loyalty to Wanda. And the Arkendish/Charlie are heavily revered by the Archons, meaning there's probably some similar trick with the dish to ensure Archon loyalty.

Hrm. Appears I misread that. Somehow I interpreted it as turning to CC instead of Jetstone.

That changes things a bit, but as to how useful it'll be... I don't know. I won't go far as to say 'spy' but since the Archons treat Parson as a client with 'full service' maybe she will be going undercover.

Hard to say.

HalfTangible
2015-03-10, 04:58 PM
Hmm....So if Wanda's ability to see through the eyes of Decrypted Archons is due to being attuned to the Arkenpliers, rather than because they're units of the same side....Will Wanda still be able to see what Lilith sees if Lilith should turn; and if so, does Lilith herself know that to be able to reveal it? Or is Lilith an unwitting recon unit for Wanda?


Hrm. Appears I misread that. Somehow I interpreted it as turning to CC instead of Jetstone.

That changes things a bit, but as to how useful it'll be... I don't know. I won't go far as to say 'spy' but since the Archons treat Parson as a client with 'full service' maybe she will be going undercover.

Hard to say.

It's been stated that Wanda can only see out of the eyes of Decrypted units if they have Thinkamancy, and implied that they need to be doing something on their end to make it work like that.

Though, Lillith could potentially be used to spy before she's turned, depending on how Charlie decides to do it.

Wayson
2015-03-10, 06:29 PM
Looking at Tram's face in the first panel of 47 is just... it's painful. There's the suggestion of facial features, but nothing more, and their arrangement is reminiscent of a Mr. Potato Head.

On a slightly more positive note, I wonder what Jack is alluding to?

Rogar Demonblud
2015-03-10, 06:33 PM
I just had a different nasty thought. Wanda wants more archons to Decrypt. And now she's going to know exactly where a small detail of them are.

Welf
2015-03-12, 02:11 PM
I don't know if it already has been posted, but there is a short fan comic (http://www.erfworld.com/blog/view/45429/parsons-identity-crisis).

Lizard Lord
2015-03-13, 05:05 AM
@Panel 7 of the new page: When is the artist going to get better at facial expressions? That should have been an awesome look there, but instead we get no indication of what he was even going for. At this point I can't help but wonder if he can manage "Dull Surprise."


Honestly, I am not normally one to pick on artwork, but I feel like it is seriously impacting the story telling here.

Aquillion
2015-03-13, 10:00 PM
Interesting. Jack is still needling her after a fashion... although I got the impression that she doesn't really like his change in attitude. I think it unnerves her to see a friend and companion she knew so well before altered that way.

Killer Angel
2015-03-14, 05:18 AM
I don't know if it already has been posted, but there is a short fan comic (http://www.erfworld.com/blog/view/45429/parsons-identity-crisis).

I was aware of it, but i don't remember a link. So good idea.
Anyway, the art is better than the actual official one... :smallbiggrin:

-D-
2015-03-14, 05:41 AM
I was aware of it, but i don't remember a link. So good idea.
Anyway, the art is better than the actual official one... :smallbiggrin:
Yeah, I loved that comic, but I doubt author has time for doing it regularly.

HandofShadows
2015-03-14, 07:21 AM
I was aware of it, but i don't remember a link. So good idea.
Anyway, the art is better than the actual official one... :smallbiggrin:

Totally agree. The artist hit it spot on.

hajo
2015-03-14, 08:20 AM
I was aware of it, but i don't remember a link.
Umm - main page, top row, center ?