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TheWombatOfDoom
2014-10-01, 05:31 PM
Erfworld (www.erfworld.com) is an online comic about a table top gamer named Parson Gotti that is summoned from our world to the world of Erf, a world based on its own rules that function similarly to a table top game. This makes Parson a valuable player in a game that may very well threaten his life. Does he want to go back to his own world at all, or is this world the perfect place for a gamer such as himself? Is he really dreaming? Will he be there forever? Who knows! What we DO know is that in this world, the pieces are living things, and the stakes cannot be higher. Join Parson on this wild ride filled with real world references and puns, gaming references and glory, fate and chance.

Previous incarnations:
GitP: Erfworld Forum section (Locked) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=47)
Erfworld thread I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178724)
Erfworld thread II: Finally thinking with portals, over a year later (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268156)
Erfworld thread III: As the Erf Turns (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313967)

Currently we are on page 20 of book 3, and update 10 of the Forecastle text story!

Also, please SPOILER your comments about an update that has occurred within a day or two, or at least until someone posts that there is a new update, so someone doesn't get a spoiled page.

NEO|Phyte
2014-10-01, 05:57 PM
So, my thoughts on Forecastle update:
I am thinking that the battle has been going poorly because that double eagle has been passively soaking in Luckamancy for its reserve, and the new captain with his lack of superstition will actually make use of the unit, resulting in neat things.

No particularly interesting theories as to what Anchorbar's secret weapon/tactic may be, outside of fighting enemies dumb enough to pick engagements in poor hexes.

Rogar Demonblud
2014-10-01, 07:14 PM
I'm wondering if Foolamancy is involved.

Anteros
2014-10-01, 10:27 PM
I'm not sure why the hobgobwins defected to Charlescomm, rather than to FAQ. If that was the only option, somebody probably would have associated Charlie with natural ally weirdness before now - he uses this trick rarely, but he does use it enough that somebody would have noticed if natural allies suddenly appeared in Charlescomm livery. Whereas if the hobgobwins defected to FAQ, it still wouldn't be general knowledge that this was Charlie's trick and not Vanna's. Parson would figure it out, but I think Charlie could have maintained plausible deniability to the rest of the world. Seems like he unnecessarily tipped his hand here.

He's been openly aiding the coalition against Gobwin Knob for ages now. Everyone involved already knows his allegiance. I don't think he cares if his involvement isn't a secret.

Landis963
2014-10-02, 08:51 AM
So who called that Forecastle would eventually take command?

Rogar Demonblud
2014-10-02, 09:51 AM
Most of us, at one point or another. We've also switched positions, because this is the internet. :P

TechnoWarforged
2014-10-02, 11:30 AM
Most of us, at one point or another. We've also switched positions, because this is the internet. :P

You can say we are "jumping ships".

Landis963
2014-10-02, 12:29 PM
You can say we are "jumping ships".

I thought that referred to relationship speculation. :smalltongue:

Killer Angel
2014-10-02, 01:11 PM
So, my thoughts on Forecastle update:
I am thinking that the battle has been going poorly because that double eagle has been passively soaking in Luckamancy for its reserve, and the new captain with his lack of superstition will actually make use of the unit, resulting in neat things.

I hope so. That Chekhov's eagle must be of some good use!

MReav
2014-10-02, 01:13 PM
Marking thread.

The Glyphstone
2014-10-02, 01:34 PM
I thought that referred to relationship speculation. :smalltongue:

But who can we ship Forecastle with? the Eagle?

Radar
2014-10-02, 01:48 PM
But who can we ship Forecastle with? the Eagle?
He obviously married his Duty. :smalltongue:

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-02, 05:03 PM
I hope so. That Chekhov's eagle must be of some good use!

It could also be a Red Herring.

Legato Endless
2014-10-02, 05:05 PM
It could also be a Red Herring.

Or it could turn up later in the main plot line. Though being used in the battle here is most likely.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-02, 06:04 PM
Or it could turn up later in the main plot line. Though being used in the battle here is most likely.

Oh I know, I just figured...we have Chekov's Eagle, A Red Herring...all we need is Schrodinger's Cat and we have the League of Memetastic Animals

Legato Endless
2014-10-02, 06:25 PM
Oh I know, I just figured...we have Chekov's Eagle, A Red Herring...all we need is Schrodinger's Cat and we have the League of Memetastic Animals

Bit too literal, but my first thought for that would have the cat as a kind of griefing unit. After the battle 'ends' you don't gain any experience for croakng it without closing in and performing natural lookamancy. At which point you may or may not get slashed in the face.

ChowGuy
2014-10-02, 09:59 PM
Oh I know, I just figured...we have Chekov's Eagle, A Red Herring...all we need is Schrodinger's Cat and we have the League of Memetastic Animals
Don't be silly. Everyone knows you can't get Schrödinger's cat unless you croak a Quantum Mechanic. Then it may or may not be in the box he drops.

Sidenote: I was once killed in Dwarftown by a (pet) Master Mind Flayer named "Schrödinger's Cat" when I foolishly let him blunder into a Black Light. Gave new meaning to the term "you feel really stupid."

Math_Mage
2014-10-03, 02:23 AM
Welp. Ansom shenanigans are the only tool Parson has at this point.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-03, 05:42 AM
Welp. Ansom shenanigans are the only tool Parson has at this point.

Part of me is really hoping we get to see some unknown bit of Arkenhammer power here, they seem incredibly under powered compared to the other 3 we know of.

Killer Angel
2014-10-03, 08:27 AM
Welp. Ansom shenanigans are the only tool Parson has at this point.

Well, Ansom is climbing more and more the megalogwiff's back, so I really hope so. +1 for the shining knight that saves the day! :smallbiggrin:

TheStranger
2014-10-03, 09:49 AM
Have we seen Jillian be so overtly Royalist before? That was a bit jarring, I had thought she was kind of agnostic on that point.

Math_Mage
2014-10-03, 10:17 AM
Have we seen Jillian be so overtly Royalist before? That was a bit jarring, I had thought she was kind of agnostic on that point.
I think she just doesn't appreciate being looked down on.

Kornaki
2014-10-03, 10:45 AM
If this is the culmination of Jillian's ascent into proper acceptance of her royalty and subsequent De-Stanleying of the world, I think I might puke.

She has done literally nothing to deserve this victory. Nothing.

TheStranger
2014-10-03, 11:32 AM
I know she's been moving towards being more royalist, I just feel like she skipped a step or something. "Jarring" is the best word I can come up with for that outburst. If she's been building to it, and I just wasn't paying attention, that's one thing. But if it was supposed to be a milestone in her character arc, I feel like it missed the mark. We know Stanley is annoying, and an angry reaction would definitely be in character, but from Jillian I'd expect that to be "I'm a better warlord than you and you're not half as smart as you think you are," not "I'm better than you because I'm a Queen and you're a commoner." Her self-image has always been tied more to her capabilities than her station. If that's changed, or if this was supposed to be the moment where it changed, I don't think it was set up well. But again, I'm open to anybody who wants to link updates building to this.

Bird
2014-10-03, 11:35 AM
Well, I was dead wrong thinking that the "new significant development" was about more than hobgobwins on peeps.

Have to agree that Jillian going full-out royalist now is odd. Classism isn't the most endearing look for her, either. The worst thing she's able to say about Stanley on this page is that he isn't high-born ("dungeon-lackey," "piker puke").

Alex Knight
2014-10-03, 12:21 PM
She could be talking like that just to aggravate Stanley. Hurt his morale even more by reminding him of their starting stations. Stanley, IIRC, is sensitive about being a non-Royal.

HandofShadows
2014-10-03, 01:00 PM
She could be talking like that just to aggravate Stanley. Hurt his morale even more by reminding him of their starting stations. Stanley, IIRC, is sensitive about being a non-Royal.

Yeah, seems much more in character for her.

Legato Endless
2014-10-03, 08:26 PM
She could be talking like that just to aggravate Stanley. Hurt his morale even more by reminding him of their starting stations. Stanley, IIRC, is sensitive about being a non-Royal.

No, but that actually makes your explanation even better. Considering Stanley's inferiority superiority complex, Toolism almost certainly originates from his desire to feel special. If this were heartfelt, I would expect Jillian to be more foul mouthed and natural sounding. The taunts here sound rather strained and invented for her. Jillian has a big affinity for pushing her opponents buttons to get what she wants, but despite her seething hatred for Stanley she does not know him at all. The irony is Jillian has bought into Slately's propaganda about the Tool, and is thus focusing on the one prominent aspect of Stanley's character he doesn't actually feel threatened about. One good short joke would do so much more.

hajo
2014-10-04, 02:03 AM
Considering Stanley's inferiority superiority complex, Toolism almost certainly originates from his desire to feel special.
Toolism was mostly Ansom (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+1/158)'s idea (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+1/168), after Wanda decrypted him.
Diplomacy (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/31), Propaganda etc. are not Stanley's strong points.

Miklus
2014-10-04, 05:34 AM
reg: Schrodinger's Cat


Bit too literal, but my first thought for that would have the cat as a kind of griefing unit. After the battle 'ends' you don't gain any experience for croakng it without closing in and performing natural lookamancy. At which point you may or may not get slashed in the face.

This gives me an idea for a unit, behaps a sub-race of the CopyCat?

EtherCAT:
A powerful and intelligent scout unit resembling a ghost-like feline creature. They are very
observant and can monitor disturbances with fast and precise detection. They can safely transfer
information using a so-called "black channel". EtherCATs are usually slaves, but beware, they
sometimes "lose" information because in each EtherCATs heart, he dreams himself a Master and
will assert himself as such at the first opportunity.

Group organization:
If two EtherCATs meet, they will usually synchronize information.
When more than two EtherCATs gather, they sometimes form a ring and if conformity can be
achived, they elect one of the members Master or "Top Cat".

Specials:
Can be fully transparent aka invisible, but usually show their real-time communication interface.
Can migrate into new areas and insert themselves while integrating into the environment seamlessly
Can tunnel though objects.
CANopen locked doors.

Items:
Although an EtherCAT does not require special hardware they can have up to two unique items:
A DeviceNet for capturing packets and inslave other small units or devices.
A Fieldbus, usually a Profibus, for fast migration.

The EtherCATs only known natural enemy is the Wireshark.

Legato Endless
2014-10-04, 03:16 PM
Toolism was mostly Ansom (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+1/158)'s idea (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+1/168), after Wanda decrypted him.
Diplomacy (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/31), Propaganda etc. are not Stanley's strong points.

Indeed, the universalizing religion was founded by Ansom, but I was referring to the mandate of heaven originally conceived by Stanley.

The Troubadour
2014-10-06, 08:34 AM
So Stanley missed, just like that? Without even any effort on Jillian's part to defend herself?
How unsatisfying.

halfeye
2014-10-06, 10:13 AM
So Stanley missed, just like that? Without even any effort on Jillian's part to defend herself?
How unsatisfying.
Maybe he hit Ansom with a boost?

The Glyphstone
2014-10-06, 10:17 AM
Is Stanley tactically shrewd enough to fake Jillian out with a non-damaging attack, or one intentionally aimed to miss, just to keep her focus on him long enough to get Ansom into attack position? Ansom is a GK unit, so Stanley would have known he was approaching even if he couldn't see him visually.

Fjolnir
2014-10-06, 11:27 AM
Is Ansom going over the side with Jillian? I think it would be interesting if he dusted on the giving end of a similar tactic that killed him...

Anteros
2014-10-06, 12:04 PM
It's not very good writing for us to lose 2 such plot critical characters without resolving their arcs, so they're probably going to be fine.

TheStranger
2014-10-06, 12:19 PM
They'll land in a lake. The rest of Book 3 will be a buddy comedy with Ansom and Jillian walking to the nearest city. Oh, and they'll simultaneously take each other prisoner while falling, so they'll be handcuffed together.

HalfTangible
2014-10-06, 12:59 PM
So Stanley missed, just like that? Without even any effort on Jillian's part to defend herself?
How unsatisfying.

One post. We don't even make it ONE post before someone spoils the thing.

Why am I still surprised...

HandofShadows
2014-10-06, 02:35 PM
Stanley does not seem to be that surprised at that he missed. Just kinda dissapointed. I noticed that Ansom's chains are vanishing as well as he jumped at Jillian. Wasn't it a little while ago that the rules for taking a Ruler prisoner were being talked about? :smallamused:

Killer Angel
2014-10-06, 03:10 PM
Speaking of grafic art... well, finally, that is a look of surprise. :smallamused:

Aquillion
2014-10-06, 03:31 PM
Part of me is really hoping we get to see some unknown bit of Arkenhammer power here, they seem incredibly under powered compared to the other 3 we know of.I'm not sure I agree. The Arkenhammer seems to be incredibly powerful in a straight-up fight -- prior to the Hobgobwin thing, it was the difference between the battle being winnable and unwinnable for Jillian's side. The Arkenpliers help you in a fight, sure, but only if you can kill people fast enough for the resurrection to benefit you; the Arkenhammer seems to basically just be a win button that annihilates people with lightning bolts.

It's just that Gobwin Knob hasn't been able to use it much because it's attuned wielder is also their leader and therefore has to be kept out of fights. Imagine if, say, Stanley was on the frontlines all the time and someone else was king.

Welf
2014-10-06, 03:32 PM
Is Stanley tactically shrewd enough to fake Jillian out with a non-damaging attack, or one intentionally aimed to miss, just to keep her focus on him long enough to get Ansom into attack position? Ansom is a GK unit, so Stanley would have known he was approaching even if he couldn't see him visually.

I'd say yes. He looks to relaxed and sounds too calm for me to be surprised.

Also, I like the idea of Stanley the Tool outsmarting newly royalist Jillian. It would e the final official prove of stupidity.

Adaon Nightwind
2014-10-06, 03:50 PM
Somehow, i feel sorry for Jillian here. She risked so much by making Ansom her Prisoner and trying to get him to turn, for all the times he saved her - and she did not want to see that the man she loved was gone. Now she will. :smallfrown:

NEO|Phyte
2014-10-06, 05:12 PM
Ansom is a GK unit, so Stanley would have known he was approaching even if he couldn't see him visually.
He was also a non-repatriated prisoner (at least until the last panel, note the shackles fading out of existence), though how much influence that has on Ruler Sense I don't know.

Aquillion
2014-10-06, 05:29 PM
Maybe, maybe not. We've all been dreading it, but it's still not too late for Ansom to turn. I doubt Stanley is aware that he is / was in love with Jillian.

He'd know it if he was paying attention -- Wanda revealed it waaaay back in book 1 -- but even with his increased efforts to remember people's names, I doubt he remembers that much.

Also, why did Jillian expect him to answer that question about Wanda?

(However, this gives her a reason to capture and not croak him, if she wins.)

The Glyphstone
2014-10-06, 07:23 PM
I gotta say, I do like this artist's rendition of megalogwiffs. The one gnawing on the dwagon's tale is very cheerfully disgruntled.

Bird
2014-10-06, 07:36 PM
I'm not sure I agree. The Arkenhammer seems to be incredibly powerful in a straight-up fight -- prior to the Hobgobwin thing, it was the difference between the battle being winnable and unwinnable for Jillian's side. The Arkenpliers help you in a fight, sure, but only if you can kill people fast enough for the resurrection to benefit you; the Arkenhammer seems to basically just be a win button that annihilates people with lightning bolts.

It's just that Gobwin Knob hasn't been able to use it much because it's attuned wielder is also their leader and therefore has to be kept out of fights. Imagine if, say, Stanley was on the frontlines all the time and someone else was king.
In that case, it's like having a big bonus one battle at a time, which is a big deal tactically, but doesn't compare to the overwhelming strategic implications of massive intelligence on enemies, or of a massive upkeep-free army that grows all the time--not to mention second chances to use croaked casters, etc.

Dwagon taming is a nice perk of the hammer, since dwagons seem to be a fantastic unit. But I have to agree that the hammer doesn't quite measure up to the other tools.

To ryu's point--I tend to think that despite being attuned, Stanley hasn't fully realized the hammer's potential. The first thing we saw Stanley do with it was experiment with turning nuts into pigeons, implying that he hasn't figured out all of its secrets.

Kornaki
2014-10-06, 08:00 PM
In that case, it's like having a big bonus one battle at a time, which is a big deal tactically, but doesn't compare to the overwhelming strategic implications of massive intelligence on enemies, or of a massive upkeep-free army that grows all the time--not to mention second chances to use croaked casters, etc.

Dwagon taming is a nice perk of the hammer, since dwagons seem to be a fantastic unit. But I have to agree that the hammer doesn't quite measure up to the other tools.

To ryu's point--I tend to think that despite being attuned, Stanley hasn't fully realized the hammer's potential. The first thing we saw Stanley do with it was experiment with turning nuts into pigeons, implying that he hasn't figured out all of its secrets.

For all we know he could turn each megalogwiff into a walnut by giving them love taps (he did something similiar against a bat in book 1). A weapon that prevents the other side from using flying units (by insta-nutting them) is a reasonable strategic advantage.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-06, 08:47 PM
I'm not sure I agree. The Arkenhammer seems to be incredibly powerful in a straight-up fight -- prior to the Hobgobwin thing, it was the difference between the battle being winnable and unwinnable for Jillian's side. The Arkenpliers help you in a fight, sure, but only if you can kill people fast enough for the resurrection to benefit you; the Arkenhammer seems to basically just be a win button that annihilates people with lightning bolts.

It's just that Gobwin Knob hasn't been able to use it much because it's attuned wielder is also their leader and therefore has to be kept out of fights. Imagine if, say, Stanley was on the frontlines all the time and someone else was king.

Well the ArkenPliers are also powerful in a straight fight, they instakill Uncroaked, the other two we can't say, however infinite move has incredible combat uses, Imagine Attuned Slippers in water combat, you can give entire fleets infinite move.

elros
2014-10-06, 10:36 PM
For all we know he could turn each megalogwiff into a walnut by giving them love taps (he did something similiar against a bat in book 1).
I was really hoping Stanley's attack would have been some unexpected response like that.

BTW, when did they reveal arken slippers?

Legato Endless
2014-10-06, 10:46 PM
I was really hoping Stanley's attack would have been some unexpected response like that.

BTW, when did they reveal arken slippers?

The prequel. They may or may not still be in Erfworld. (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%200/61)

HalfTangible
2014-10-06, 10:50 PM
Dwagon taming is a nice perk of the hammer, since dwagons seem to be a fantastic unit. But I have to agree that the hammer doesn't quite measure up to the other tools.

It's been implied that Stanley didn't try too hard to do much else with it. It's possible the Arkenhammer can tame other units in an instant. Taming every natural ally you come across, for instance, would be one heck of an advantage.

Also, the Arkenhammer has multiple functions, the Arkenpliers and Arkenshoes only one each, as far as we know/can tell.

Though, the more we look at the Arkentools, the more I feel they're meant to fulfill different roles - work in concert, n' all that. The Arkenhammer is clearly a warlord's weapon, meant to be brought into the thick of the fray. The Arkenpliers raise entire armies at a time, and are meant for more of a rear command role (well, more rear than the hammer at least). The Arkenshoes basically teleport the user, so they're meant more for single-unit operations - the fulcrum point of an action, assuming I'm using that term correctly.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-07, 12:49 AM
It's been implied that Stanley didn't try too hard to do much else with it. It's possible the Arkenhammer can tame other units in an instant. Taming every natural ally you come across, for instance, would be one heck of an advantage.

Also, the Arkenhammer has multiple functions, the Arkenpliers and Arkenshoes only one each, as far as we know/can tell.

Though, the more we look at the Arkentools, the more I feel they're meant to fulfill different roles - work in concert, n' all that. The Arkenhammer is clearly a warlord's weapon, meant to be brought into the thick of the fray. The Arkenpliers raise entire armies at a time, and are meant for more of a rear command role (well, more rear than the hammer at least). The Arkenshoes basically teleport the user, so they're meant more for single-unit operations - the fulcrum point of an action, assuming I'm using that term correctly.

Well we only ever saw one use of the Slippers/Shoes..whichever, not enough screentime to really get a hold of all of its functions, the Pliers have 2 different uses, kill uncroaked and create hyper uncroaked(no Upkeep), The Dish allows for Caster Links and to spy on the G-string, the Hammer Tames Dwagons(but not reduce their upkeep?) and unleash shocks, the hammer is the only one of the Tools that so far has an ability that actively drains Resources, there has got to be some other upside to it.

HandofShadows
2014-10-07, 01:47 AM
The Hammer is a Carnamacy Tool. Other than it's being really flashy we really haven't seen much of that aspect of it yet.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-07, 03:29 AM
The Hammer is a Carnamacy Tool. Other than it's being really flashy we really haven't seen much of that aspect of it yet.

Is it? where was that said? it seems to be Shockamancy(no pun intended there) more than anything..if it is supposed to be Carnamancy then Stanley is most certainly using it 99% wrong.

HandofShadows
2014-10-07, 04:53 AM
Is it? where was that said? it seems to be Shockamancy(no pun intended there) more than anything..if it is supposed to be Carnamancy then Stanley is most certainly using it 99% wrong.

Are you all that surprised that Stanely would use it wrong? :smallamused:

Killer Angel
2014-10-07, 05:56 AM
The Hammer is a Carnamacy Tool.


Is it? where was that said?

in the erfwiky (https://wiki.erfworld.com/Arkenhammer) it is said that Carnamacy is an Associated Discipline for the Arkenhammer.
But IMO the listed reasons are weak.

MReav
2014-10-07, 07:24 AM
the Hammer Tames Dwagons(but not reduce their upkeep?) and unleash shocks, the hammer is the only one of the Tools that so far has an ability that actively drains Resources, there has got to be some other upside to it.

It can turn walnuts into birds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0004.html) (and vice versa) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0126.html), and the resulting hammer-pigeons can be use to make rations. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0037.html)

Gez
2014-10-07, 09:53 AM
It can turn walnuts into birds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0004.html)

I like how, on the following page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0005.html), the cracked walnut makes a "coo!!" sound as it is swept from the table.

Legato Endless
2014-10-07, 01:16 PM
in the erfwiky (https://wiki.erfworld.com/Arkenhammer) it is said that Carnamacy is an Associated Discipline for the Arkenhammer.
But IMO the listed reasons are weak.

It's a fairly grasping attempt to fit all of the Arkentools into an aspect of Fate magic. Another issue with that theory is the
Arkenshoes just don't gel with that theory. Unlimited move seems like a Weirdomancy effect, or the teleportation possibly being Hat magic. The wiki gives a speculated connection to Dollamancy, but the reasoning is so vague it could be applied to any Tool.

Welf
2014-10-07, 01:43 PM
In that case, it's like having a big bonus one battle at a time, which is a big deal tactically, but doesn't compare to the overwhelming strategic implications of massive intelligence on enemies, or of a massive upkeep-free army that grows all the time--not to mention second chances to use croaked casters, etc.

Dwagon taming is a nice perk of the hammer, since dwagons seem to be a fantastic unit. But I have to agree that the hammer doesn't quite measure up to the other tools.

To ryu's point--I tend to think that despite being attuned, Stanley hasn't fully realized the hammer's potential. The first thing we saw Stanley do with it was experiment with turning nuts into pigeons, implying that he hasn't figured out all of its secrets.

The Hammer is a pretty powerful tool and measuers up to the Pliers. I think it takes about 4 or turns to pop a dwagon, meaning that by searching randomly for a dwagon like Stanley and getting one every 2 or 3 days you in add the production capacity of 1,6 to 2 cities to your realm. Make it more systemically like Parson and search say 400 hexes a day with scouts or a dwagon express and you add 8 to 10 cities to your production capacity. If I assume that with a dwagon you can travel 30 hexes away and back and there are multiple mounts in reserve from one city every day around 900 hexes should be farmable. That would be 4,5 dwagons a day or the production capacity of 18 to 22,5 cities. Cities with at last level 3. That is A LOT.
Gobwin Know had 16 cities before the battle of Spacerock and already ran into money problems, so this seems to be the cap for a normal side. Having the Hammer means that with a bit of thinking you can add the production capacity of the greatest empire of the world to your normal unit production, and from turn 1. With that amount of production you can simple keep farming and send a stack of 18 dwagons every four turns. Set two cities on warlord production and you have two led stacks. Set another few on knight production and you have led stacks with riders. Even as worst strategist you can wear down your enemy with that, turn by turn.
And then you haven't even used the direct combat abilities of the Hammer. As Parson said, numbers are additional, but battles are won with multipliers. And the Hammer has a bunch of them. Constant direct arkentool bonus, massive bonus from Rocking Out which gives more bonus than dance fight. And you get massive to take out larger weak stacks and electric attacks to attack leadership.
Just imagine fighting 45 dwagons with leadership, mounted knights, Rock Out dance fight, Arkentool bonus, chief warlord bonus and magic attacks. Even if you win you will have massive losses. And 10 turns later you will have the same attack force again at your doorstep.

TheStranger
2014-10-07, 04:12 PM
Even with the hammer, don't you have to pay upkeep on your dwagons? So while it's great for quickly building a strike force or replacing losses, it doesn't circumvent the soft cap on army size. The pliers do - you can apparently have an unlimited number of upkeep-free troops. Given time, you could grow an arbitrarily large army with the pliers, which removes one of the major constraints on massive sides in Erfworld. Depending on how bad the diminishing returns are from having too many cities, it could even allow nearly unlimited growth.

IMO, the pliers are the most exploitable arkentool, if not the most directly powerful. The others provide major benefits, but the pliers fundamentally change the balance of the game. Give a player like Parson the pliers and time, and he'll start croaking and decrypting his own units as fast as he can pop replacements (or arranging high-casualty battles to achieve the same effect), until he's got an army big enough to raze every city in Erfworld.

Ravenlord
2014-10-07, 05:16 PM
The decrypted army would still hinge on a single weak spot though - the pliers and their croakamancer, that is. A properly used Arkenhammer with a strike force of dragons could break through most defences and eliminate that threat... a surgical strike not unlike those annoying siege-tank drops in Starcraft.

Kind of a moot point though - given the nature of the Arkentools, it's more than likely that Fate has roles for all their wielders. That's a really major drag on them, too. You get this huge, almost unchecked power... in exchange for shackles that railroad you into being unable to use them properly (lest you broke Erfworld).

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-07, 06:15 PM
Even with the hammer, don't you have to pay upkeep on your dwagons? So while it's great for quickly building a strike force or replacing losses, it doesn't circumvent the soft cap on army size. The pliers do - you can apparently have an unlimited number of upkeep-free troops. Given time, you could grow an arbitrarily large army with the pliers, which removes one of the major constraints on massive sides in Erfworld. Depending on how bad the diminishing returns are from having too many cities, it could even allow nearly unlimited growth.

From what I understand, the DR starts to kick in and kicks hard. Haffaton had 25 some cities If I recall and had almost no army in order to be able to cover upkeeps, and yes as I understand it if you do recruit dwagons with the hammer you have to pay the upkeep, so using a group of superhardcore dragons to take over all of erf is almost impossible because as those dragons level they get higher upkeep, which is getting harder and harder to pay.

that is where the pliers fundamentally break things, no upkeep means you can expand forever.

Mobius Twist
2014-10-07, 07:42 PM
From what I understand, the DR starts to kick in and kicks hard. Haffaton had 25 some cities If I recall and had almost no army in order to be able to cover upkeeps, and yes as I understand it if you do recruit dwagons with the hammer you have to pay the upkeep, so using a group of superhardcore dragons to take over all of erf is almost impossible because as those dragons level they get higher upkeep, which is getting harder and harder to pay.

that is where the pliers fundamentally break things, no upkeep means you can expand forever.

Haffaton had at least seventy cities (https://wiki.erfworld.com/Haffaton_%28Side%29), including fifteen capital sites (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+0/66), and some hundreds of units (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+0/68).

The number of units is definitely insufficient to control the vastness of the side, so your point is absolutely still valid. I just wanted to point out the correct values. The side was HUGE.

TheStranger
2014-10-07, 08:35 PM
It's not 100% clear whether Erfworld has "flattening" diminishing returns, where total income no longer increases beyond a certain point, or "shrinking" returns, where adding more cities actually reduces gross income until it approaches zero with a large enough side. If the former, growth is still limited by the upkeep of the units and buildings required by a large empire - if you add more cities, those expenses increase even though income doesn't. But in that case, decrypted units eliminate a major expense and vastly increase your potential size. If the latter, there's a much more absolute cap on empire size. No matter how big your decrypted army is, you can't add cities past where you lose the income you need for your buildings and your living units.

But, if there's no practical limit on the size of your decrypted army, you can achieve world domination a different way - just destroy everything that you don't control. Grow your side as much as you reasonably can, then spend thousands of turns adding to your decrypted force until you can send out enough troops to raze literally every city in the world.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-07, 09:06 PM
Haffaton had at least seventy cities (https://wiki.erfworld.com/Haffaton_%28Side%29), including fifteen capital sites (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+0/66), and some hundreds of units (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+0/68).

The number of units is definitely insufficient to control the vastness of the side, so your point is absolutely still valid. I just wanted to point out the correct values. The side was HUGE.

Yeah my bad, I remembered it wrong but the numbers are not so much my point.

Welf
2014-10-08, 03:02 PM
Even with the hammer, don't you have to pay upkeep on your dwagons? So while it's great for quickly building a strike force or replacing losses, it doesn't circumvent the soft cap on army size. The pliers do - you can apparently have an unlimited number of upkeep-free troops. Given time, you could grow an arbitrarily large army with the pliers, which removes one of the major constraints on massive sides in Erfworld. Depending on how bad the diminishing returns are from having too many cities, it could even allow nearly unlimited growth.

IMO, the pliers are the most exploitable arkentool, if not the most directly powerful. The others provide major benefits, but the pliers fundamentally change the balance of the game. Give a player like Parson the pliers and time, and he'll start croaking and decrypting his own units as fast as he can pop replacements (or arranging high-casualty battles to achieve the same effect), until he's got an army big enough to raze every city in Erfworld.

Upkeep is only an issue when you want to build up a large army. But you don't have to do that. Just send all the new dwagons to fight till they croak and then send the next batch. At any given time there wouldn't be more than 30 or 40 dwagons in an side's forces. A stack at home for farming and defence and the rest either gathering in the capital or another city for the next attack or approaching the next enemy.
With the Arkenpliers you maybe can take over every city in the world, but all these cities will be more or less useless because you can't use them to produce anything. An alternative would be to raze all small cities and force many one-city states to ally with you and pay you daily tribute. And that you can do with the Hammer already.

TheStranger
2014-10-08, 04:42 PM
Upkeep is only an issue when you want to build up a large army. But you don't have to do that. Just send all the new dwagons to fight till they croak and then send the next batch. At any given time there wouldn't be more than 30 or 40 dwagons in an side's forces. A stack at home for farming and defence and the rest either gathering in the capital or another city for the next attack or approaching the next enemy.
A large army becomes essential when you have a large side, though. Otherwise, you're spread too thin, and you can't bring a meaningfully large force to bear in any one spot without weakening yourself somewhere else. At best, you're constantly putting down rebellions and waging wars of retribution against neighbors that raze your cities while your back is turned. That's the advantage of the pliers - you can have a arbitrarily large military in a side of any size, so you don't have any weak points.


With the Arkenpliers you maybe can take over every city in the world, but ...
There is no "but." Once you take over (or raze) every city in the world, you've won Erfworld. At that point, you can do whatever you want. Raze all but ten cities to get your production back and use it to build statues of yourself, if you want. It's not like the production matters at that point, or your treasury - you don't need it for anything, because you have no enemies.

I'm not saying the Hammer isn't an incredibly valuable asset that makes for a powerful side, because it is. But the pliers break Erfworld entirely.

Fjolnir
2014-10-09, 12:47 AM
The major issue is not unit upkeep, but rather city upkeep...

Killer Angel
2014-10-09, 06:25 AM
A large army becomes essential when you have a large side, though. Otherwise, you're spread too thin, and you can't bring a meaningfully large force to bear in any one spot without weakening yourself somewhere else. At best, you're constantly putting down rebellions and waging wars of retribution against neighbors that raze your cities while your back is turned. That's the advantage of the pliers - you can have a arbitrarily large military in a side of any size, so you don't have any weak points.

I tend to agree, but we know that units uncroacked by pliers, can turn and revert to their old side. I wonder if this chance increases with the number of uncroacked units.

hajo
2014-10-09, 06:47 AM
I tend to agree, but we know that units uncroacked by pliers, can turn and revert to their old side.
That should be no problem, once that side is extinct.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-09, 07:12 AM
I tend to agree, but we know that units uncroacked by pliers, can turn and revert to their old side. I wonder if this chance increases with the number of uncroacked units.

That is why you don't send Decrypted against the sides they came from, a very wise and patient person with the pliers could do some really frightening things if you think about it, use foolamancy to veil Decrypted units to look like the side they came from..attack another side..kick off a war between them, sweep in once both sides are weakened and mop up, would only work once or twice but once or twice is all you really need.

Legato Endless
2014-10-09, 11:33 AM
The other issue is 30-40 Dwagons really isn't enough on the scale we are talking about. 40 Dwagons are enough to make your side formidable, but we've yet to see any non caster unit wreak regional havoc in small numbers. Charlie has a lot more Archons, but by all accounts isn't satisfied with his current army. First, the sheer size of Erfworld means a small army won't be able to adequately respond to everything once the size gets huge. Second, we've already seen a strike force that size fight, and they didn't dominate the attle they were in, despite a dance bonus and the presumed hammer bonus. Translyvito was a powerful side with a great mercenary, but it was only one side. A few dozen dwagons on their own won't cut it against a well oiled alliance, which is what such behavior would inevitably provoke.

TheStranger
2014-10-09, 11:44 AM
The major issue is not unit upkeep, but rather city upkeep...

I agree that city upkeep and the diminishing returns from too many cities are issues. The ideal "world conquest" setup is probably a modest number of cities (whatever maximizes production and/or income) combined with enough upkeep-free units to raze every other city in Erfworld. Since decrypted cost nothing, retain all their abilities, and last indefinitely, you can take however long you need to build a ludicrously large force (which is what you'd need to burn over 200 sides to the ground). It's gamey and unsubtle, but it seems like it would work.


I tend to agree, but we know that units uncroacked by pliers, can turn and revert to their old side. I wonder if this chance increases with the number of uncroacked units.

It's certainly possible that decrypted units have some weaknesses we haven't seen yet. I don't see Ossomer turning as indicative of a weakness, though - that seemed like an extraordinary event. The mere possibility of Ossomer turning was the twist, and I don't think we'll see decrypted units defecting left and right. Ossomer turned in a situation that put him completely at odds with his prior values, combined with a fair amount of haranguing about it; simply attacking his old side probably wouldn't do it, and no other former Jetstone unit turned. If it were easy to turn a decrypted unit, Ansom wouldn't be attacking Jillian right now.

I'm fully prepared to eat my words when the next update reveals that the shackles were fading because Ansom turned to FAQ, though.

The Glyphstone
2014-10-09, 12:26 PM
Maybe in a neutral hex, friendly mounts count as friendly territory? So Ansom's shackles disappear because he is attacking Jillian, who is currently 'mounted' on Stanley's dwagon - by leaving the megalogwiff and becoming a mounted unit on the dwagon as well, Ansom becomes automatically repatriated?

Math_Mage
2014-10-09, 12:57 PM
Maybe in a neutral hex, friendly mounts count as friendly territory? So Ansom's shackles disappear because he is attacking Jillian, who is currently 'mounted' on Stanley's dwagon - by leaving the megalogwiff and becoming a mounted unit on the dwagon as well, Ansom becomes automatically repatriated?
The relevant question (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/9) is whether Ansom counts as 'stacked' with Stanley. To which I eloquently answer, "Uhhhhhh."

Killer Angel
2014-10-09, 01:09 PM
That should be no problem, once that side is extinct.


That is why you don't send Decrypted against the sides they came from, a very wise and patient person with the pliers could do some really frightening things if you think about it, use foolamancy to veil Decrypted units to look like the side they came from..attack another side..kick off a war between them, sweep in once both sides are weakened and mop up, would only work once or twice but once or twice is all you really need.

True. I'm just trying to making up some hypothesis about possible, still unknown weaknesses of the pliers.

Aquillion
2014-10-09, 01:48 PM
The major issue is not unit upkeep, but rather city upkeep...I don't think there is a city upkeep; you just get diminishing returns the more cities you have, while you have to pay the upkeep of the troops you need to defend them. Eventually you get too big and your forces are spread too thin. That's why Haffaton was able to become huge -- it relied on upkeep-free undead and plant units.

Mando Knight
2014-10-09, 03:06 PM
There has to be diminishing returns on income in order for this to work, of course, or aggressively scaling upkeep costs.

Otherwise, a large side has a much easier time funding both an invasion army and strong defenses than a smaller side: the controlled area grows roughly proportionally to the square of the perimeter, and if each amount of controlled area (such as roughly evenly placed cities within the area) produces the same amount of resources as each other, the side's economy will quickly outpace the growth of the size of the perimeter they need patrolled, allowing funds to be diverted towards impenetrable city garrisons and/or unstoppable invasion forces. Thus, an aggressive side with a large economy would be able to ball out of control even without an economy hack item like the Pliers.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-09, 05:15 PM
There has to be diminishing returns on income in order for this to work, of course, or aggressively scaling upkeep costs.

There is both however, the larger your empire the smaller you get per city..and the higher cost your higher level troops are.

Erfworld is technically a beautifully designed thing for what the titans wanted it to do.

NEO|Phyte
2014-10-09, 05:37 PM
They wouldn't need Parson to break everything if the system was weak enough to break on its own.

HalfTangible
2014-10-09, 07:45 PM
That is why you don't send Decrypted against the sides they came from, a very wise and patient person with the pliers could do some really frightening things if you think about it, use foolamancy to veil Decrypted units to look like the side they came from..attack another side..kick off a war between them, sweep in once both sides are weakened and mop up, would only work once or twice but once or twice is all you really need.

Jillian noted in her prologue story that when a side attacks you, you're aware of who they are. Haffaton, once attacked, knew that a side called Faq had sacked them.

Aquillion
2014-10-09, 07:56 PM
There has to be diminishing returns on income in order for this to work, of course, or aggressively scaling upkeep costs.Diminishing returns on income are extremely common in these sorts of games in order to make it harder for one person to easily get a runaway victory.

Mando Knight
2014-10-09, 08:31 PM
Jillian noted in her prologue story that when a side attacks you, you're aware of who they are. Haffaton, once attacked, knew that a side called Faq had sacked them.

On the other hand, magic is the exception to the rules.

On the other other hand, if Jack could veil a stack of Decrypted to create a false-flag operation, I'm pretty sure Parson or Ansom would've thought of ordering such an attack.

Fjolnir
2014-10-09, 09:45 PM
cities and value and why patrolling matters (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/14)

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-10, 07:25 AM
Jillian noted in her prologue story that when a side attacks you, you're aware of who they are. Haffaton, once attacked, knew that a side called Faq had sacked them.

well, it is Foolamancy so it might fool everything with a powerful enough Mancer.

or screw it

CarnyFoolmancy linkup time!

Killer Angel
2014-10-10, 08:36 AM
They wouldn't need Parson to break everything if the system was weak enough to break on its own.

We're talking about arkentools, so a kind of power given directly by the Gods.
And you must be attuned to it: when Parson was summoned, the pliers were in the hands of Ansom, and their real power was unknown.
For example, thanks to arkendish, Charlie is one of the most powerful beings in all Erfworld.

So yeah, Arkentools tend to break the game (even if not totally)

Killer Angel
2014-10-10, 10:51 AM
bump the thread because of NEW UPDATE!!!

and... wow! :smallsmile:

TheStranger
2014-10-10, 11:30 AM
bump the thread because of NEW UPDATE!!!

and... wow! :smallsmile:

Wow indeed. Is this going to break Wanda all over again? Is she going to rush out to decrypt Jillian? How creepy is Wanda/Jillian playtime if Jillian doesn't have free will? Or will my prediction about them landing in a lake come true? Tune in next week, same Erf-time, same Erf-channel!

Legato Endless
2014-10-10, 12:43 PM
Or she's caught by a mount, and turns to watch Ansom slowly fall to the erf.

HandofShadows
2014-10-10, 12:49 PM
Wow indeed. Is this going to break Wanda all over again? Is she going to rush out to decrypt Jillian? How creepy is Wanda/Jillian playtime if Jillian doesn't have free will? Or will my prediction about them landing in a lake come true? Tune in next week, same Erf-time, same Erf-channel!

Ouch. Breaking Wanda, again. :smalleek::smallfrown: Also Decrypted DO have free will. At least the same level they had when they croked. Now will Ansom surive the fall? I really think Jillian will.

Fjolnir
2014-10-10, 12:52 PM
So, does stanley know enough to grab the corpse for another decrypted warlord?

pendell
2014-10-10, 01:33 PM
The only question in my mind is: How will Jillian Sue's plot-shields save her this time?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

MReav
2014-10-10, 01:44 PM
The only question in my mind is: How will Jillian Sue's plot-shields save her this time?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Does Jillian have some sort of Fate going on? Because if so, those Plot Shields are going to kick into high gear by divine mandate.

Kornaki
2014-10-10, 01:45 PM
cities and value and why patrolling matters (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/14)

I just noticed Stanley was about to tell parson of that time Charlie tweaked his dwagon find rate, but got cut off. Oh, missed opportunities. Also good world building to keep that detail around.

Math_Mage
2014-10-10, 02:08 PM
My guess: Ansom turning in 3...2...1...

The Glyphstone
2014-10-10, 02:25 PM
My guess: Ansom turning in 3...2...1...

Letting him dust on impact as a unit of Faq instead? Neither of them have flight, so unless there's a plot-shield megalogwiff conveniently underneath them, they're still going to hit the ground and be injured/incapacitated/croaked-dusted.

NEO|Phyte
2014-10-10, 02:52 PM
I just noticed Stanley was about to tell parson of that time Charlie tweaked his dwagon find rate, but got cut off. Oh, missed opportunities. Also good world building to keep that detail around.

Wait, it was Charlie that got Stanley all those dwagons back when Wanda lured him to Faq? I thought it was just Fate.

The Glyphstone
2014-10-10, 02:57 PM
Wait, it was Charlie that got Stanley all those dwagons back when Wanda lured him to Faq? I thought it was just Fate.

The two aren't necessarily always separate from each other. I never got the impression Charlie was behind the dwagon bounty, though.

Wayson
2014-10-10, 03:44 PM
Letting him dust on impact as a unit of Faq instead? Neither of them have flight, so unless there's a plot-shield megalogwiff conveniently underneath them, they're still going to hit the ground and be injured/incapacitated/croaked-dusted.

Well, there's the megalo that Vanna's driving. Sooooo... not completely improbable.

I do hope that we're not about to see Ansom turn to Faq though. That would be so... so... boring! We already had a whole book where he was the antagonist, and we've had pretty much another book (half of Book 2, and a lot of Book 3) where he's a helpless prisoner. I want him to stay with GK (or whatever side Parson forms) and help bring the fight to Charlie.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-10, 04:50 PM
Ansom turns to FAQ, twists him and Jillian around he takes the damage on landing Jillian walks away.

Ansom is now out of play, removing the CWL that Stanley would prefer to Parson, Jillian and Stanley both live.

Rogar Demonblud
2014-10-10, 04:52 PM
The only question in my mind is: How will Jillian Sue's plot-shields save her this time?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

First step in checking on that--Wanda orders Ansom to strangle the wench. As long as he has his hands by her throat and all.

HalfTangible
2014-10-10, 05:42 PM
Here's an idea: Ansom or Jillian or both survive, and this book turns into a cat-and-mouse game wherein Jillian runs away on foot, Ansom chases her, Charlie assists one while harming the other however he can and Faq and Gobwin Knob dance around each other in a desperate bid to rescue their queen and warlord respectively, and to croak each other's.

It's not a perfect plan (since one is a ruler and the other can see whatever their warlord sees) but i think the basic idea of the two forces trying to out-maneuver each other could work.

Aquillion
2014-10-10, 07:48 PM
Ansom and Jillian die.

Wanda and Maggie both die because they were in Ansom's mind when he died.

The remaining units manage to kill Stanley, but not before he kills Vanna and all the other named units on the other side. Charlie is linked with Vanna when she died, so he dies too. All his Archons die with him.

All the Decrypted dust when Wanda dies, so Parson is left with no units in the Magic Kingdom and gets killed by Jojo, who dies in the fight. All the casters with him also die.

Did I miss anyone?

Rogar Demonblud
2014-10-10, 08:23 PM
Sizemore and Janis.

The Glyphstone
2014-10-10, 08:54 PM
Ansom and Jillian die.

Wanda and Maggie both die because they were in Ansom's mind when he died.

The remaining units manage to kill Stanley, but not before he kills Vanna and all the other named units on the other side. Charlie is linked with Vanna when she died, so he dies too. All his Archons die with him.

All the Decrypted dust when Wanda dies, so Parson is left with no units in the Magic Kingdom and gets killed by Jojo, who dies in the fight. All the casters with him also die.

Did I miss anyone?

Yeah, Zhopa survives. Gotta fix that.

Aquillion
2014-10-10, 10:38 PM
Sizemore and Janis.
Sizemore and Janis die when all the other units with Parson die, in a big pitched Magic Kingdom fight that erupts once the Decrypted vanish with Wanda's death. Also, all the GMTTA die too.


Yeah, Zhopa survives. Gotta fix that.I assume that the Hobgobwins have already risen up and killed Zhopa.

The hard part is killing Jetstone, since they're a bit unconnected from all this. Maybe the Archon they have captive manages to kill Tremennis, only to die herself when Charlie dies.

Anteros
2014-10-10, 11:05 PM
Sizemore and Janis die when all the other units with Parson die, in a big pitched Magic Kingdom fight that erupts once the Decrypted vanish with Wanda's death. Also, all the GMTTA die too.

I assume that the Hobgobwins have already risen up and killed Zhopa.

The hard part is killing Jetstone, since they're a bit unconnected from all this. Maybe the Archon they have captive manages to kill Tremennis, only to die herself when Charlie dies.

Good enough. Wrap it up guys, we're done here. May as well not even check the comic any more.

Killer Angel
2014-10-11, 03:04 AM
Ansom and Jillian die.

Wanda and Maggie both die because they were in Ansom's mind when he died.

The remaining units manage to kill Stanley, but not before he kills Vanna and all the other named units on the other side. Charlie is linked with Vanna when she died, so he dies too. All his Archons die with him.

All the Decrypted dust when Wanda dies, so Parson is left with no units in the Magic Kingdom and gets killed by Jojo, who dies in the fight. All the casters with him also die.

Did I miss anyone?

Erfworld: total annihilation.
A new kickstarter project!

Welf
2014-10-11, 04:10 AM
Erfworld: total annihilation.
A new kickstarter project!

And then 40 years of constant updates.

For story reasons I expect Jillian to survive and Ansom to die. I don't see any further story purpose for him and Jillian has too many story lines going on. Also Jillian has a dozen fliers in the hex.

Anteros
2014-10-11, 05:27 AM
My only problem with Ansom dying is...why even bring him back in the first place if you're not going to do anything plot important with the character? I don't consider him commanding a few battles off-screen and getting captured plot critical...so what was the point?

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-11, 07:31 AM
My only problem with Ansom dying is...why even bring him back in the first place if you're not going to do anything plot important with the character? I don't consider him commanding a few battles off-screen and getting captured plot critical...so what was the point?

Set Jillian firmly against Wanda, enough so that she could unite with a certain Tool and Hamster Lord when they end up against Wanda once Parson realizes that "Fate" is his ultimate enemy here.

HandofShadows
2014-10-11, 07:39 AM
Letting him dust on impact as a unit of Faq instead? Neither of them have flight, so unless there's a plot-shield megalogwiff conveniently underneath them, they're still going to hit the ground and be injured/incapacitated/croaked-dusted.

I think we may be looking at the wrong side for flyers. Stanley has a bunch of dwagons (without riders) in the hex.

Welf
2014-10-11, 07:47 AM
My only problem with Ansom dying is...why even bring him back in the first place if you're not going to do anything plot important with the character? I don't consider him commanding a few battles off-screen and getting captured plot critical...so what was the point?

He served a few purposes already. In book 1 he was the model for a decryptified unit and showed how they change their alliance without changing their basic character. And with his high level and abilities as commander he was the only one who could reasonably replace Parson, setting in motion Parson's travel through the Magic Kingdom. Plus Ansom invented Toolism as proselyting religion. All those things were caused by Ansom's particular character and story.
I'm sad to (likely) see Ansom gone. He was a good guy, even if he was quite a zealot at times.

stsasser
2014-10-11, 10:38 AM
The only question in my mind is: How will Jillian Sue's plot-shields save her this time?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Neither character is interesting enough to be worth saving, but their deaths would cause interesting reactions among the remaining cast.

For this reason, I expect at least one to survive, probably Jillian.

The Glyphstone
2014-10-11, 10:58 AM
It's a pity Wanda isn't in close proximity. Otherwise my bets would be on Jillian (or both) croaking, Wanda rushing to her side to Decrypt her, only to have Jillian reanimate in Faq livery.

Legato Endless
2014-10-11, 12:22 PM
Jillian isn't going to die here, even including being decrypted afterwards, as that would screw with Caesar's subplot of taking out Faq.

Lizard Lord
2014-10-11, 09:56 PM
Jillian isn't going to die here, even including being decrypted afterwards, as that would screw with Caesar's subplot of taking out Faq.

Do we know how long until her heir pops?

Rogar Demonblud
2014-10-11, 11:57 PM
No, although we know it's been pushed back, since Vanna is being used for combat now instead of minding the gestation rate.

Anteros
2014-10-12, 12:29 AM
Jillian isn't going to die here, even including being decrypted afterwards, as that would screw with Caesar's subplot of taking out Faq.

Unless it's just one of those "See! Anyone can die!" type twists. Which would be bad writing so I don't expect it.

I guess Ansom could die here. I don't really think his plot line was ever resolved, and I wouldn't personally be satisfied with it, but he hasn't been an important player for a long time now, so it doesn't really matter.

Killer Angel
2014-10-13, 01:07 PM
Forecastle's update!

give 'em cold steel! :smallbiggrin:

Rogar Demonblud
2014-10-13, 01:51 PM
I suspect this is going to be revelatory.

unbeliever536
2014-10-13, 03:00 PM
And the schedule goes *thump*...


Nice to see Forecastle doing something. I've been thinking for a while now that the enemy is illusory; I think Seaworld's been sinking their own ships.

HalfTangible
2014-10-13, 05:36 PM
And the schedule goes *thump*...


Nice to see Forecastle doing something. I've been thinking for a while now that the enemy is illusory; I think Seaworld's been sinking their own ships.


That wouldn't explain why the enemy ships have land captains on 'em, it's pretty unlikely anyway given that every warlord in the fleet would give them a chance to blow the veil, and it doesn't explain where the Foolamancer would be hiding.

My thought is that they have their own force of double eagles, turning luck in their favor. The non-seafarer is there to tame double eagles and any other force the encounter.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-13, 06:48 PM
And the schedule goes *thump*...


Nice to see Forecastle doing something. I've been thinking for a while now that the enemy is illusory; I think Seaworld's been sinking their own ships.



I would not call it Thump I would call it

"Hey there was this cliffhanger about a character pretty much everyone loaths for no real reason about to possibly die? enjoy it for a week!"

unbeliever536
2014-10-14, 12:48 AM
There was some talk back at the beginning of the book about how long the schedule would last; it seems the answer is about 20 pages/3 months. As to the cliffhanger itself...eh? I can't say I feel particularly positive or negative about Jillian. She's just kinda there.

Killer Angel
2014-10-14, 06:00 AM
Nice to see Forecastle doing something. I've been thinking for a while now that the enemy is illusory; I think Seaworld's been sinking their own ships.


A nasty foolamancy trick, eh? It could be.

The Glyphstone
2014-10-14, 10:34 AM
Frankly, this 'schedule slip' is only a good thing in my book. I want to see how the Forecastle story works out, much more than the main story interests me right now.

Rogar Demonblud
2014-10-14, 10:41 AM
Likewise, and not just because I grew up reading Hornblower novels.

Yana
2014-10-14, 11:02 AM
On the whole, I think I actually prefer the text updates, and not just because the current artist is described at best as "hit or miss". I'm really interested in the world-building aspect of Erfworld. Learning about the underlying mechanics that are apparent to the inhabitants but not outsiders such as Parson or myself is a major draw for me. Plus, Rob can impart a lot more information during a text update than he can in any one comic. It also helps that some of these PoV characters, namely Crush and Forecastle, are a heck of a lot more interesting and sympathetic than say Wanda or Ansom.

Welf
2014-10-14, 02:29 PM
And the schedule goes *thump*...


Nice to see Forecastle doing something. I've been thinking for a while now that the enemy is illusory; I think Seaworld's been sinking their own ships.


It's a minor slip caused by external effects and there are still updates, so I think we should give the benefit of doubt.


On the whole, I think I actually prefer the text updates, and not just because the current artist is described at best as "hit or miss". I'm really interested in the world-building aspect of Erfworld. Learning about the underlying mechanics that are apparent to the inhabitants but not outsiders such as Parson or myself is a major draw for me. Plus, Rob can impart a lot more information during a text update than he can in any one comic. It also helps that some of these PoV characters, namely Crush and Forecastle, are a heck of a lot more interesting and sympathetic than say Wanda or Ansom.

Don't you mean Jillian? Wanda is maybe not sympathetic, but interesting?

I think it's a combination of an actual luckamancer with those birds. Luckamancy can shift the "rolls" from one battle to another. So they win one, but lose another, and maybe a bit more. If they have double eagles they maybe can "pay" those "luck debts" with their luckamancy reserves.

Another theory: I wonder if the superstition of the seafaring units is actually grounded in something real. What if for them coincidence equals causality? So if a double eagle lands on a ship on the 50th turn, it will sink. Maybe Anchorbar uses thinkamancy on feral units to create bad luck for Seaworld. And landfaring units are on ships because they are not affected by this.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-14, 06:17 PM
Don't you mean Jillian? Wanda is maybe not sympathetic, but interesting?

It is not hard to tell where her plot is going, she is a religious fanatic no way she is staying on Parson's side.

Virtue
2014-10-14, 06:52 PM
Just thought I'd post this here, since our forums here are more active than the erfworld forums. Had some ideas on how Retconjuration might actually work for a non Titan. Feel free to criticize or comment

Retconjuration [Naughtymancy]

There is a type of magic called Retconjuration. Where you can revise reality through the use of juice. Normally, only you would sense a change. If you're good enough, you can let other people know that reality was revised too. From a logistic sense, a retconjurer can see reality as if it was being written by an unknown author. While activating their magic senses, they can perceive beyond the physical, and read words glowing, floating in the area, narrating everything that is going on around them. During this sense, if they were to pick up a nearby cat, they would see words appear in the air, "as he picked up a nearby cat." A retconjurer can then spend magic to tweak the words he sees. The better the retconjurer and the more magic he spends, the more changes he can make. At the lowest level, he would only be able to change a letter or add a letter. He could make that sentence, "as he picked up a nearby bat." And to everyone except himself, that cat was always a bat, and he had picked it up.

As a retconjurer gains in power, they can change multiple letters at a time, add or change words, and even sentences. At the very highest skill, a retconjurer can go back further for their revisions, but they must understand that changing too much, can have unforeseen consequences. Being a retconjurer is a thankless and ultimately insanity driven profession. It is very difficult for retconjurers to demonstrate their magic, as unless they are powerful enough, only they can sense any changes.

Retconjuration, with skill, can be used to mimic many other casting types. Through creative use, it can mimic luckamancy for instance; changing "the enemy archer shot his arrow into the warlord and crit." to "the enemy archer shot his arrow into the warlord and hit." With enough juice and level, a retconjurer could become very powerful indeed, though also risk endangering themselves and their sides. It is very possible that retconjurers do exist, though often go mad from piercing the veil behind their world and write themselves out of existence.

HandofShadows
2014-10-15, 02:07 AM
It is not hard to tell where her plot is going, she is a religious fanatic no way she is staying on Parson's side.

Accept that she flat out stated whe was going to be on Parson's side because of her beliefs in fate. And I don't see her as a fanatic. A true beliver certainly. But I have seen no indication that she have stopped thinking rationally like fanatics do.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-15, 07:28 AM
Accept that she flat out stated whe was going to be on Parson's side because of her beliefs in fate. And I don't see her as a fanatic. A true beliver certainly. But I have seen no indication that she have stopped thinking rationally like fanatics do.

And what happens if(when in my thinking) Parson decides "Fate can bite my fat nerdy rump"?

Also in terms of Erfworld mechanics, she DID stop thinking rationally, she betrayed FAQ simply because she knew she was fated to attune to an Arkentool, then very possibly manipulated Stanley into getting into a war with Jetstone for the same reason. Her Loyalty is to fate above everything else including the Sides she is duty bound to serve.

Rogar Demonblud
2014-10-15, 10:55 AM
In Erfworld, actively working to fulfill your destiny IS rational behavior. Trying to do otherwise is unwise.

Kornaki
2014-10-15, 11:00 AM
No, we've seen you shouldn't try to fight your fate. Refusing to go to war with Jetstone because she doesn't want to fulfill her destiny is one thing, starting an all out global brawl on the off-chance Ansom dies ten feet from her reach is another. Who's to say that if Wanda had done nothing, Stanley wouldn't have stumbled on FAQ forty turns later and died in a stupid skirmish attempt? Maybe the real lesson of Erfworld is stop trying to predict the future.

The Glyphstone
2014-10-15, 11:01 AM
Or as Hamstard would put it, "Wanda be crazy, yo."

Welf
2014-10-15, 04:04 PM
And what happens if(when in my thinking) Parson decides "Fate can bite my fat nerdy rump"?

Also in terms of Erfworld mechanics, she DID stop thinking rationally, she betrayed FAQ simply because she knew she was fated to attune to an Arkentool, then very possibly manipulated Stanley into getting into a war with Jetstone for the same reason. Her Loyalty is to fate above everything else including the Sides she is duty bound to serve.

She didn't betray Faq, she simply screwed up. She knew for an absolute that she would attune to an Arkentool, and she made an correct estimate of the forces Stanley would bring. The only thing she didn't grasp was that Stanley also was fated to attune and stay attuned. Then fate rolled the dice and let more dwagons appear than usual. It might be that this would have happened anyway. If she was fated to have the arkentool sooner or later she would have to leave Faq, and the only possible way was with Jillian on a tour and get captured or that someone invades and destroys Faq, which was also fated.

ObadiahtheSlim
2014-10-15, 04:35 PM
She didn't betray Faq, she simply screwed up. She knew for an absolute that she would attune to an Arkentool, and she made an correct estimate of the forces Stanley would bring. The only thing she didn't grasp was that Stanley also was fated to attune and stay attuned. Then fate rolled the dice and let more dwagons appear than usual. It might be that this would have happened anyway. If she was fated to have the arkentool sooner or later she would have to leave Faq, and the only possible way was with Jillian on a tour and get captured or that someone invades and destroys Faq, which was also fated.

Did Wanda discuss her plan to trap Stanely with King Banhammer or Jillian? No. She betrayed the trust of her lord and liege for personal gain. That is the textbook definition of treason.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-15, 04:37 PM
She didn't betray Faq, she simply screwed up. She knew for an absolute that she would attune to an Arkentool, and she made an correct estimate of the forces Stanley would bring. The only thing she didn't grasp was that Stanley also was fated to attune and stay attuned. Then fate rolled the dice and let more dwagons appear than usual. It might be that this would have happened anyway. If she was fated to have the arkentool sooner or later she would have to leave Faq, and the only possible way was with Jillian on a tour and get captured or that someone invades and destroys Faq, which was also fated.

Yes, she did betray FAQ, she gave an opposing force the location of their 3 hidden cities. 3 cities their King actively tried to keep hidden for a very long time for the express purpose of avoiding conflict, the fact that Stanley at the time of the back stabbing had a force weaker than FAQs is completely inconsequential. She knew she was fated to leave FAQ and was fated to attune, and due to that knowledge she betrayed FAQ by giving its super secret location away to an opposing warlord. That even in erfworld is the very definition of treason.

Wanda's Loyalty stat is keyed to Fate, not to Parson, not to GK, not to herself. She is mechanically a religious zealot.

Legato Endless
2014-10-15, 05:24 PM
It's also implied she was the one who croaked Banhammer, given Stanley's description of the battle. Even if Banhammer had been in on the plan, it would still be a betrayal.

super dark33
2014-10-15, 06:26 PM
Forecastle update!

And OBVIOUSLY there is a Ron Burgandy! DOUBLE EAGLE ACTION!

The Glyphstone
2014-10-15, 06:34 PM
Forecastle's opposite number, I presume?

Killer Angel
2014-10-16, 06:04 AM
Well, it was not a foolamancy trick.
So, the reason behind Anchorbar's superiority, is still a mistery...

HandofShadows
2014-10-16, 07:23 AM
Well, it was not a foolamancy trick.
So, the reason behind Anchorbar's superiority, is still a mistery...

They may find out if they can take that ship though. Nice to see the bird being a HUGE help in this battle as well.

Mobius Twist
2014-10-16, 09:42 PM
We're not exactly clear on whether navy warlords have better bonuses than land-based ones when it comes to ship-to-ship combat. Firing beam broadsides is one thing. Hand-to-hand is a different animal, though the terrain isn't exactly friendly.

Something interesting is how every member of the frigate is armed, while Forecastle's boarding party is highly specialized. Is this intentional or just a matter of desperation when it comes to defending (what is essentially) home base?

I predict that the eagle's capture mechanic might become useful in short order.

Killer Angel
2014-10-17, 07:06 AM
They may find out if they can take that ship though.

better late than never... :smallwink:

Kornaki
2014-10-17, 09:08 AM
Something interesting is how every member of the frigate is armed, while Forecastle's boarding party is highly specialized. Is this intentional or just a matter of desperation when it comes to defending (what is essentially) home base?

I predict that the eagle's capture mechanic might become useful in short order.


Probably desperation. It's a smaller ship so it might not even have a dedicated boarding/fighting crew like the flagship does.

Adaon Nightwind
2014-10-17, 12:32 PM
So, in the new update for the comic,

both Jilian and Ansom survive. I suppose it was to be expected, since both are high-level Warlords. Still, i did not think of this outcome. Also, regarding the art style, it seems to be a bit.. static, if compared to the amount of action that is actually going on.

Yana
2014-10-17, 12:55 PM
I suppose having both of these characters survive what would have been, in reality, an incredibly fatal fall is one of the advantages of a damage system that is basically roulette.

Narkis
2014-10-17, 12:57 PM
Incapacitated means she's gonna croak if she's not healed before the turn ends, right? All the Tool has to do is end the turn and it will all be over.

The Glyphstone
2014-10-17, 01:03 PM
Incapacitated means she's gonna croak if she's not healed before the turn ends, right? All the Tool has to do is end the turn and it will all be over.


http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/121

"Incapacitation could take a number of forms. All of them meant that you could not move, could not initiate engagement or disengage, could not personally fight or cast. Some meant that you would croak (or be dusted) if an enemy so much as struck you a single blow. Others, that you would live only until the start of your next turn, unless healed. Sometimes you were conscious, and sometimes not."

TheStranger
2014-10-17, 01:05 PM
So, not in a lake. But my buddy comedy prediction is still on the table. He's a Toolist fanatic, she's a Mary Sue queen. They fight crime.

And yeah, I agree about how static the art is. I feel like Xin would have at least shown us the impact, probably with an easter-eggy sound effect. My take on the new art is that it's serviceable at best - it illustrates the story, but it doesn't seem to add anything.

Math_Mage
2014-10-17, 02:05 PM
http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/121

"Incapacitation could take a number of forms. All of them meant that you could not move, could not initiate engagement or disengage, could not personally fight or cast. Some meant that you would croak (or be dusted) if an enemy so much as struck you a single blow. Others, that you would live only until the start of your next turn, unless healed. Sometimes you were conscious, and sometimes not."


Parson's Klog (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/87) says: "When you fall, one of three things happens: you are injured (possibly only slightly), you are incapacitated (you croak in one turn if not given Healomancy), or you just croak."

I'm not sure whether "in one turn" is the same as "at end of current side's turn", though. So even if Stanley ended turn, Jillian might live until the end of the next side's turn, or until the end of her next turn.

The Glyphstone
2014-10-17, 02:17 PM
Parson's Klog (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/87) says: "When you fall, one of three things happens: you are injured (possibly only slightly), you are incapacitated (you croak in one turn if not given Healomancy), or you just croak."

I'm not sure whether "in one turn" is the same as "at end of current side's turn", though. So even if Stanley ended turn, Jillian might live until the end of the next side's turn, or until the end of her next turn.

Except the text-update I provided, with the quote, explicitly demonstrates that Jack is incorrect. Sylvia is incapacitated by the body of the dead dwagon - 'conscious and not terrible wounded, but pinned as if hit with pink dwagon goo or another incapacitation special.' The 'croaks at next turn' is one type of incapacitation, but there are others, is the point.

Aquillion
2014-10-17, 02:18 PM
If those are the rules, Ansom is still in trouble, isn't he? He needs a healomancer. Vanna might have a healing scroll to use on Jillian, but GK has nobody to heal him.

Of course, we don't even know that Jillian is incapacitated. She could be totally fine and standing over Ansom right now debating whether to croak him.

I'm more curious what Charlie is busy with.

Also, this art just isn't very good. I would rate it below 'serviceable' and somewhere around 'actively distractingly bad'. Parson's face in that fifth panel in particular is ridiculous -- it looks like a meme-image someone photoshopped in or something. The picture of Ansom also looks off, even accounting for the fact that he's injured -- his right arm is at a weird angle, and not in a "broken arm" sense so much as a "artist doesn't know how to draw arms" sense. Ansom's whole position there is just sort of weird, perspective-wise.

Math_Mage
2014-10-17, 02:24 PM
Except the text-update I provided, with the quote, explicitly demonstrates that Jack is incorrect. Sylvia is incapacitated by the body of the dead dwagon - 'conscious and not terrible wounded, but pinned as if hit with pink dwagon goo or another incapacitation special.' The 'croaks at next turn' is one type of incapacitation, but there are others, is the point.
Neither is incorrect. The combination of text implies that falling incapacitation is a specific form of incapacitation. Sylvia was not incapacitated by her fall, so the falling incapacitation rules don't apply to her.

Narkis
2014-10-17, 02:27 PM
http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/121

"Incapacitation could take a number of forms. All of them meant that you could not move, could not initiate engagement or disengage, could not personally fight or cast. Some meant that you would croak (or be dusted) if an enemy so much as struck you a single blow. Others, that you would live only until the start of your next turn, unless healed. Sometimes you were conscious, and sometimes not."



http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+1/135
I was thinking more of this scene, and Sizemore having to rush to Wanda. I suppose it could be a different kind of incapacitation, or Jillian could've hit the lottery and not be incapacitated at all. Ansom does look to be in trouble though.

Fjolnir
2014-10-17, 05:42 PM
Charlie likely bailed for 2 reasons, the first is that the link served what it needed to, Stanley is going to get away but lost a major ally in the hobgobwins and secondly it PROBABLY hurts to be linked to someone who dies since there is no place to shunt the backlash and Vanna is incredibly vulnerable with the freed decrypted on the ground. Now that I think about it there is also a third reason: Charlie can now order the hobgobwins to murder Jillian with no witnesses that matter...

Bird
2014-10-17, 06:50 PM
Out of curiosity, does anybody reading this page feel anything for Wanda?

I ask because in book one, I found her emotional (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/78) arc (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/108) extremely compelling. Now, through some combination of art and writing--not so much. Though she's admittedly not in the focus.

HalfTangible
2014-10-17, 06:56 PM
Well I sure hope someone picks up that phone.[/URL]


Here's an idea: Ansom or Jillian or both survive, and this book turns into a cat-and-mouse game wherein Jillian runs away on foot, Ansom chases her, Charlie assists one while harming the other however he can and Faq and Gobwin Knob dance around each other in a desperate bid to rescue their queen and warlord respectively, and to croak each other's.

It's not a perfect plan (since one is a ruler and the other can see whatever their warlord sees) but i think the basic idea of the two forces trying to out-maneuver each other could work.

BECAUSE I F$#@ING CALLED IT~ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsqmU3v0hVA)

Math_Mage
2014-10-17, 07:08 PM
Out of curiosity, does anybody reading this page feel anything for Wanda?

I ask because in book one, I found her emotional (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/78) arc (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/108) extremely compelling. Now, through some combination of art and writing--not so much. Though she's admittedly not in the focus.
Well, it feels like her emotional arc with Jillian keeps looping back through the same stuff. I mean, you'd think at this point Wanda would have at least moved past the "she's as obsessed with me as I am with her" stage to the "I'll make her as obsessed with me as I am with her" stage. Wasn't that the point of this strip (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/11)? (Side note: I totally didn't notice the turquoise text in that strip before.)

Anteros
2014-10-17, 09:08 PM
Out of curiosity, does anybody reading this page feel anything for Wanda?

I ask because in book one, I found her emotional (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/78) arc (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/108) extremely compelling. Now, through some combination of art and writing--not so much. Though she's admittedly not in the focus.

"Oh no! the person who I have been torturing and mind controlling into betraying her comrades broke free of my control!"

No. I can't say that I have ever felt sympathy for Wanda. She's a psychopath.



Well I sure hope someone picks up that phone.[/URL]



BECAUSE I F$#@ING CALLED IT~ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsqmU3v0hVA)

I said the same thing. It was fairly obvious given normal story structure. You don't kill your main characters without resolving their plots. Unless you're G.R.R.M. It's bad writing.

Winterwind
2014-10-18, 03:23 AM
Out of curiosity, does anybody reading this page feel anything for Wanda?

I ask because in book one, I found her emotional (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/78) arc (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/108) extremely compelling. Now, through some combination of art and writing--not so much. Though she's admittedly not in the focus.No, because I'm still confused as to why she is reacting this way. As far as I can tell, Jillian did not do nor say anything that would warrant this reaction - "You weren't the one I love. I should have known, he was already gone." doesn't even seem like it would be a negative statement from Wanda's perspective, all it carries is that Jillian is giving up on Ansom, Wanda should be jubilant.

And even if we focus on the single part of this statement that might be considered a negative by Wanda - the fact that she loved Ansom more than Wanda - c'mon, she knew this already. She knew it for a long time. She was confronted with this fact, already suffered a major breakdown over it and recovered, was confronted with that fact over and over yet again (without much outward emotional response to it, though it clearly bothered her) - and now, it suddenly causes her to break down again? That doesn't make any sense!

When Wanda randomly appeared on the previous page, I was extremely confused as to where they were going with this. And now, where they went with this turned out to be a complete non-sequitur, as far as I'm concerned.

The static art does not help at all, but in this case, I feel the blame lies solely with the writing. In fact, I'd probably go as far as saying that I feel this is the worst writing Erfworld has shown up till this point, throughout all three books. intermissions and bonus stories, by a fairly large margin.

Killer Angel
2014-10-18, 04:04 AM
Story update!

So, Jillian and Ansom both survived the fall. Ansom is incapacitated, and this means he will croack, if not healed before the end of turn

Avaris
2014-10-18, 05:21 AM
No, because I'm still confused as to why she is reacting this way. As far as I can tell, Jillian did not do nor say anything that would warrant this reaction - "You weren't the one I love. I should have known, he was already gone." doesn't even seem like it would be a negative statement from Wanda's perspective, all it carries is that Jillian is giving up on Ansom, Wanda should be jubilant.

And even if we focus on the single part of this statement that might be considered a negative by Wanda - the fact that she loved Ansom more than Wanda - c'mon, she knew this already. She knew it for a long time. She was confronted with this fact, already suffered a major breakdown over it and recovered, was confronted with that fact over and over yet again (without much outward emotional response to it, though it clearly bothered her) - and now, it suddenly causes her to break down again? That doesn't make any sense!

When Wanda randomly appeared on the previous page, I was extremely confused as to where they were going with this. And now, where they went with this turned out to be a complete non-sequitur, as far as I'm concerned.

The static art does not help at all, but in this case, I feel the blame lies solely with the writing. In fact, I'd probably go as far as saying that I feel this is the worst writing Erfworld has shown up till this point, throughout all three books. intermissions and bonus stories, by a fairly large margin.

So seeing someone she loves falling to almost certain death with no way to help them and knowing it is your fault isn't enough reason?

Winterwind
2014-10-18, 05:46 AM
Story update!The entirety of this page is already the discussion of that very update. :smallwink:


So seeing someone she loves falling to almost certain death with no way to help them and knowing it is your fault isn't enough reason? Firstly, where do you get "almost certain death" from? It's already been very clearly established during the battle of Spacerock that the probability of dying from falls isn't all that great, and the height from which you fall doesn't seem to matter at all.

But that's largely irrelevant, because as far as your question goes? When your dearest wish is for her to die - which is why you specifically ordered your puppet to kill her right then and there - so you could Decrypt her and fully turn her into another one of your slaves, the ultimate fulfillment of your desired relationship between you two - then no, not only is it not enough reason, it's as much of an anti-reason as it could possibly be.

Welf
2014-10-18, 05:53 AM
So seeing someone she loves falling to almost certain death with no way to help them and knowing it is your fault isn't enough reason?

She can "help", she can decryptify her. And she already agreed to order Ansom to assassinate Jillian. (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/7)

hajo
2014-10-18, 05:56 AM
The entirety of this page is already the discussion of that very update. :smallwink:

Old news here :smallsmile:
I think, the spoilers could be dropped 2-3 hours after the update has happened.

Bird
2014-10-18, 02:41 PM
Old news here :smallsmile:
I think, the spoilers could be dropped 2-3 hours after the update has happened.
I think the first 3 or so posts should always be spoilered. This ensures that anyone opening the thread before seeing the update won't have any spoilers on their screen, and can go read the page before looking further. After that, perhaps there's no value in continuing to spoiler tag.

Lizard Lord
2014-10-18, 08:37 PM
I thought the sob was from the link breaking, which we know has a backlash. This is evidenced by the fact that even Maggie is distraught. The link broke because Ansom is unconscious.

CRtwenty
2014-10-18, 10:02 PM
I thought the sob was from the link breaking, which we know has a backlash. This is evidenced by the fact that even Maggie is distraught. The link broke because Ansom is unconscious.

That's what I got out of it too.

Anteros
2014-10-19, 05:32 AM
I think the first 3 or so posts should always be spoilered. This ensures that anyone opening the thread before seeing the update won't have any spoilers on their screen, and can go read the page before looking further. After that, perhaps there's no value in continuing to spoiler tag.

I agree with this. I'll also try to remember to put spoiler tags if we're at the top of a new page, even if the content has been out for a while. That way people won't just randomly click to view the latest page of the thread and get spoiled.

Ravenlord
2014-10-19, 06:51 AM
I thought the sob was from the link breaking, which we know has a backlash. This is evidenced by the fact that even Maggie is distraught. The link broke because Ansom is unconscious.

Makes me wonder why didn't they disengage the link manually beforehand. Ansom dropped from really high and it must've taken him a while to land.

Killer Angel
2014-10-19, 11:31 AM
The entirety of this page is already the discussion of that very update. :smallwink:

I was reading the fifth page, and was convinced it was the last one... :smalltongue:

Lizard Lord
2014-10-19, 09:23 PM
Makes me wonder why didn't they disengage the link manually beforehand. Ansom dropped from really high and it must've taken him a while to land.

Unless they have back up thinkamancers I am not sure if it would matter.

Though in which case I am not sure why they didn't have backup thinkamancers there.

elros
2014-10-20, 10:58 AM
What exactly is "love" in Erfworld? On one hand, we have Jillian's "love" for Ansom and, to a lesser extent, Wanda. We have Wanda's "love" for Jillian, for whatever that means anymore. And then we have the "love" that the decrypted have for Wanda, except for Ossomer who somehow switched loyalties (http://http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/156) back to Jetstone (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/157).
It seems like such a fundamental concept is still poorly defined in the "Erfworld sense," and that is making it hard to understand the characters and story.

The Glyphstone
2014-10-20, 11:22 AM
What exactly is "love" in Erfworld? On one hand, we have Jillian's "love" for Ansom and, to a lesser extent, Wanda. We have Wanda's "love" for Jillian, for whatever that means anymore. And then we have the "love" that the decrypted have for Wanda, except for Ossomer who somehow switched loyalties (http://http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/156) back to Jetstone (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/157).
It seems like such a fundamental concept is still poorly defined in the "Erfworld sense," and that is making it hard to understand the characters and story.

Except the characters don't understand it either. Love....is love, like it is for people in the real-world. The problem on Erf is that it's not a stat they can see or understand, because they only think in terms of game mechanics. That's one of the core subthemes of the story.

Porthos
2014-10-20, 12:42 PM
Update Time!

50 shmuckers says that's Charlie on the other end of the line. Don't particularly think Parson is going to be in a good mood for chatting right now though.

ObadiahtheSlim
2014-10-20, 12:52 PM
Update Time!

50 shmuckers says that's Charlie on the other end of the line. Don't particularly think Parson is going to be in a good mood for chatting right now though.

Of course it's Charlie. That's his sound effect.

halfeye
2014-10-20, 01:10 PM
What exactly is "love" in Erfworld?
What exactly is love in the real world? We probably can't discuss all of it because of religion and politics, but here's a couple of Wikipedia links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_Loves

Math_Mage
2014-10-20, 02:09 PM
I guess there's a limit to Charlie's multitasking capability.

NEO|Phyte
2014-10-20, 02:23 PM
I guess there's a limit to Charlie's multitasking capability.

I suspect it's less a general limit and more that even he isn't immune to backlash if a link gets futzed with by way of interacting with an individual rather than the linked entity.

Killer Angel
2014-10-20, 03:16 PM
Giant couch. :smallbiggrin:
I suppose only a warlord like Stanley, can dismiss in such a way a megalobeast like that.
Also, I love the little craters in the gwiff's front.

Radar
2014-10-20, 03:42 PM
Anyone remembers, how many calculations Parson still ows to Charlie? I guess Charlie will need one now.

Miklus
2014-10-20, 03:59 PM
Giant couch. :smallbiggrin:
I suppose only a warlord like Stanley, can dismiss in such a way a megalobeast like that.
Also, I love the little craters in the gwiff's front.

I'm impressed that the megalogriff can take nine or more direct hits from the Arkenhammer and still fly. They must have a crapton of hitpoints. I used to see them as transport units, but maybe they are an even match for the dwagons even without a breath weapon.

The Glyphstone
2014-10-20, 04:52 PM
They're definitely heavy fliers. I'd assume that their Capture special and transport capacity replace the dwagon breath.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-20, 06:43 PM
What exactly is "love" in Erfworld?

Now the only thing I can think about is...Stanley and Vinnie as the guys from that SNL Roxbery Sketch.

Rogar Demonblud
2014-10-20, 07:09 PM
Anyone remember how many calculations Parson still owes to Charlie? I guess Charlie will need one now.

I don't think we have a running tally. Someone more attentive to detail than I can probably give you a ballpark estimate.

TheStranger
2014-10-20, 07:57 PM
Now the only thing I can think about is...Stanley and Vinnie as the guys from that SNL Roxbery Sketch.

Baby don't Erf me, don't Erf me, no more.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-20, 08:07 PM
Baby don't Erf me, don't Erf me, no more.

and 7 pages in we have the title for the next thread.

EnragedFilia
2014-10-20, 08:24 PM
It is truly a universal question, and one with ever so many answers for ever so many different franchises...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpvGTM5jmTU

I knew there was a reason I've had that thing sitting on my hard drive for the last eight years! (technically the version above has a few different examples, but most of them overlap)

Fjolnir
2014-10-20, 08:42 PM
Now the only thing I can think about is...Stanley and Vinnie as the guys from that SNL Roxbery Sketch.

throw trem in the back seat as the jim carrey and you have a deal

Legato Endless
2014-10-21, 02:55 AM
Anyone remembers, how many calculations Parson still ows to Charlie? I guess Charlie will need one now.

Charlie has six left.

12 was the original deal.

2 spent on how many Archons were needed to take Gobwin Knob.

1 on surviving the turn.

1 to learn if forfeiting the rest was worth learning about decryption.

1 for the odds Parson could cast the spell in the scroll.

1 for the odds Jetstone would fall without Charlie's assistance.

Killer Angel
2014-10-21, 06:14 AM
I'm impressed that the megalogriff can take nine or more direct hits from the Arkenhammer and still fly. They must have a crapton of hitpoints. I used to see them as transport units, but maybe they are an even match for the dwagons even without a breath weapon.

Well, they seem relatively poor also in damage dealing: all the megalo was doing, was to bite the dwagon's tail, without apparent serious consequences.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-21, 07:20 AM
throw trem in the back seat as the jim carrey and you have a deal

Someone needs to make this GIF!

Yana
2014-10-24, 10:24 AM
New update
In which we completely ignore the impending textual confrontation between Parson and Charlie in favor of... more Ansom and Jillian. /sigh

Never has this art been more disappointing than in the panel where Ansom is lying stonefaced on the forest floor with his mouth closed... and then having a *cough* show up next to him. I mean really? Could we at least have had some notion of motion there?

Landis963
2014-10-24, 10:36 AM
New update
In which we completely ignore the impending textual confrontation between Parson and Charlie in favor of... more Ansom and Jillian. /sigh

Never has this art been more disappointing than in the panel where Ansom is lying stonefaced on the forest floor with his mouth closed... and then having a *cough* show up next to him. I mean really? Could we at least have had some notion of motion there?

And what's more, Ansom is immediately recaptured. Was there any point to this skirmish? Like, at all?

Kornaki
2014-10-24, 10:45 AM
And what's more, Ansom is immediately recaptured. Was there any point to this skirmish? Like, at all?

Ansom is behind the tree Jillian is stuck on in the last two panels, and the megalogwiff lands in front of the tree. Ansom has not been recaptured yet (though it seems imminent). More importantly, did you notice how Jillian literally has a tree branch passing through her body? I feel like that might be important to the plot moving forward.

Wayson
2014-10-24, 10:57 AM
Ansom is behind the tree Jillian is stuck on in the last two panels, and the megalogwiff lands in front of the tree. Ansom has not been recaptured yet (though it seems imminent). More importantly, did you notice how Jillian literally has a tree branch passing through her body? I feel like that might be important to the plot moving forward.

Eh, I think it just means that (for the meantime at least) she's... *puts on sunglasses* ...sticking around.

Avaris
2014-10-24, 12:12 PM
Honestly, I think the thing I care about most regarding this update is that its not a Lord Forecastle update...

ObadiahtheSlim
2014-10-24, 12:17 PM
It's a good thing it's not a city fight. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to go from the air to the ground. Also where id all these land troops come from? We didn't really see them be repatriated like Ansom.

Radar
2014-10-24, 12:38 PM
There is also the issue that it's still Stanley's turn, so Jillian can't escape. I also don't think, anyone in her merry band has healing magic unless Vanna has scrolls and knows how to cast that type of magic.

ObadiahtheSlim
2014-10-24, 12:52 PM
There is also the issue that it's still Stanley's turn, so Jillian can't escape. I also don't think, anyone in her merry band has healing magic unless Vanna has scrolls and knows how to cast that type of magic.

I think scrolls are much easier to cast cross discipline spells with. Sizemore admits to have zero aptitude at casting outside his discipline, but he cast shockomancy spell from a scroll.

The Glyphstone
2014-10-24, 02:03 PM
*checks*

not Forecastle. Whatever.

Winterwind
2014-10-24, 02:34 PM
It's a good thing it's not a city fight. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to go from the air to the ground. Also where id all these land troops come from? We didn't really see them be repatriated like Ansom.In this (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/12) update, we were told Stanley repatriated twenty-four of them (and that was fairly early on in the battle, so it may have become more later on). If you look closely, you can also see it happening in the fourth panel, with the repatriated units getting out of the slain megalogwiff and onto the ground.

Leewei
2014-10-24, 02:44 PM
Similar to Lady Silvia (who died twice in two fires), ...

...it looks like Queen Jillian is dying to a branch (avoiding Olive Branch's death by Charlie's intervention).

Given his own history, Charlie must be terrified of Hippymancers.

memnarch
2014-10-24, 03:29 PM
Honestly, I think the thing I care about most regarding this update is that its not a Lord Forecastle update...

Aye, I'm in the same boat. There's just so much more for detail/story in Forecastle's story than the main story at the moment.

Killer Angel
2014-10-24, 05:06 PM
Aye, I'm in the same boat. There's just so much more for detail/story in Forecastle's story than the main story at the moment.

Yep, Forecastle's cliffhanger is... more cliffy. :smallwink:

Winterwind
2014-10-24, 06:28 PM
Aye, I'm in the same boat. There's just so much more for detail/story in Forecastle's story than the main story at the moment.I'd say, there's just so much more for detail/story in text updates than comic updates when it comes to Erfworld in general. Which is why I'm saddened that Book 3 has the text-comic ratio that it does (two text updates out of 26 so far), rather than the one Book 2 had (which, without counting, was about half-half, or maybe even with more text than comic updates).

Ravenlord
2014-10-24, 07:00 PM
The (IMHO) horrible art doesn't help matters either. At least I could imagine my own art when I was reading the text...

Kornaki
2014-10-24, 07:25 PM
Similar to Lady Silvia (who died twice in two fires), ...

...it looks like Queen Jillian is dying to a branch (avoiding Olive Branch's death by Charlie's intervention).

Given his own history, Charlie must be terrified of Hippymancers.

This is amazing.

TheWombatOfDoom
2014-10-24, 07:44 PM
Aye, I'm in the same boat. There's just so much more for detail/story in Forecastle's story than the main story at the moment.

Heh. I see what you did there. Boat. *snicker*

Lizard Lord
2014-10-24, 11:46 PM
Honestly, I''m thinking Jamie should just turn Erfworld into a series of novels. I get the feeling most (though not all) would enjoy it more that way.

Kaptin Keen
2014-10-25, 03:45 AM
And what's more, Ansom is immediately recaptured. Was there any point to this skirmish? Like, at all?

A point?

I don't really see this ending without one side ending. Either Faq or Gobwin Knob. And since Faq was just reformed, I rather suspect the Tool is going to croak, and our heroes will go barbarian. Presumably, this is the whole point of them being in the magic kingdom. And the point of the Dig Dug story line.

I dunno?! =)

Welf
2014-10-25, 06:19 AM
Similar to Lady Silvia (who died twice in two fires), ...

...it looks like Queen Jillian is dying to a branch (avoiding Olive Branch's death by Charlie's intervention).

I like that idea.


A point?

I don't really see this ending without one side ending. Either Faq or Gobwin Knob. And since Faq was just reformed, I rather suspect the Tool is going to croak, and our heroes will go barbarian. Presumably, this is the whole point of them being in the magic kingdom. And the point of the Dig Dug story line.

I dunno?! =)

There is also the possibility that Jillian gets captured, and Stanley still can leave the hex and return home (or to the new capital).

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-25, 07:38 AM
A point?

I don't really see this ending without one side ending. Either Faq or Gobwin Knob. And since Faq was just reformed, I rather suspect the Tool is going to croak, and our heroes will go barbarian. Presumably, this is the whole point of them being in the magic kingdom. And the point of the Dig Dug story line.

I dunno?! =)

That reduces problems for Parson though, without a side to worry over Parson can focus fully on Charlie and honestly I think Stanley needs some more character development before and if he dies.

Legato Endless
2014-10-25, 08:14 AM
I like that idea.



There is also the possibility that Jillian gets captured, and Stanley still can leave the hex and return home (or to the new capital).

That would certainly give her heir something to do when they pop.

Anteros
2014-10-25, 10:32 AM
Honestly, I''m thinking Jamie should just turn Erfworld into a series of novels. I get the feeling most (though not all) would enjoy it more that way.

I honestly don't feel like his writing is strong enough for that. Then again, given the number of people who actually seem to like the text updates somehow, I guess I'm in the minority.

HalfTangible
2014-10-25, 11:06 AM
Honestly, I''m thinking Jamie should just turn Erfworld into a series of novels. I get the feeling most (though not all) would enjoy it more that way.

imo the text updates are not strong enough to stand on their own, not without the images to give us visual clues as to Erfworld's nature. I miss most of the jokes in text updates until someone else brings 'em up.

And this is from someone who DOES like the text updates.

Yana
2014-10-25, 11:09 AM
The problem with relying on the visual cues to get the joke is that the visuals actually have to convey those cues. Thus far, pretty much every character drawn by the new artist looks like this -_-. There's not much that can be done with a cast of perpetually frowning characters.

HalfTangible
2014-10-25, 11:20 AM
The problem with relying on the visual cues to get the joke is that the visuals actually have to convey those cues. Thus far, pretty much every character drawn by the new artist

Stop.

I'm not debating on the new art or whether it's any good - I'm talking about the text updates on their own.

Rogar Demonblud
2014-10-25, 08:05 PM
That would certainly give her heir something to do when they pop.

If memory serves, the ruler being captured means the side freezes, which means no heir.

Legato Endless
2014-10-25, 08:33 PM
If memory serves, the ruler being captured means the side freezes, which means no heir.

Ah right. Which means Jillian has to avoid capture this turn. It's been something in excess of 34 turns that unit has been gestating, and part of that boosted by a turnamancer. How much longer can this take? It really makes Slatley popping two dozenish kids look extraordinaryly wasteful even given how long he was king.

Edit: Total time for Faq is 60 turns...which means we've still got more than 20 turns before popping. So maybe we won't see the heir after all. Pity, I was kind of looking forward to Jillian being trolled by her likely ideologically differing progeny.

NEO|Phyte
2014-10-25, 08:51 PM
It really makes Slatley popping two dozenish kids look extraordinaryly wasteful even given how long he was king.

IIRC not all nobles/royals are specifically popped, they can also randomly pop.

Aquillion
2014-10-25, 09:05 PM
It's just hard to see Stanley surviving simply because the narrative has gone to such lengths to get every single named character on their side into the Magic Kingdom, including every significant Decrypted. It's really really really hard to believe that it would've gone to such lengths to put them in the one place where they would be able to continue acting without good reason.

Anteros
2014-10-25, 09:27 PM
I certainly hope Stanley survives. He's basically the only likable person out of our protagonists.

memnarch
2014-10-25, 10:22 PM
I certainly hope Stanley survives. He's basically the only likable person out of our protagonists.

I dunno, I find Jack and Parson enjoyable even if Parson basically gets screwed over by the plot and can't do much. Stanley is pretty unique though with the characterization he's had.

Bird
2014-10-26, 01:25 AM
He hasn't had much to do recently, but I find Sizemore to be relateable. Certainly, his compassion and sense of ethics exceed the rest of the GK bunch (though Parson is close at times).

I actually have some amount of affection for everybody on Stanley's side. Even Wanda I like for being the charismatic crazy intermittently insightful person that she is. (My favorite line in all of Erfworld was probably her response to Parson when he claimed he didn't lose: "You did! And it has just begun for you.")

Though, I admit that most my positive feelings are based on things that happened in Book 1. Stanley and Jack are the two who come to mind as becoming more likeable since then.

ti'esar
2014-10-26, 04:09 AM
I'd just like to stop in here for a moment to note that I finally got the title of this thread today.

ryuplaneswalker
2014-10-26, 04:56 AM
I'd just like to stop in here for a moment to note that I finally got the title of this thread today.

so on a scale of 1-10 how bad did the pun hurt?

ti'esar
2014-10-26, 05:36 AM
so on a scale of 1-10 how bad did the pun hurt?

Strictly speaking, I'm not sure that actually qualifies as a pun.

Narkis
2014-10-26, 08:46 AM
Wait, there's a pun on the title? I don't get it.:smallconfused:

Welf
2014-10-26, 09:24 AM
Ah right. Which means Jillian has to avoid capture this turn. It's been something in excess of 34 turns that unit has been gestating, and part of that boosted by a turnamancer. How much longer can this take? It really makes Slatley popping two dozenish kids look extraordinaryly wasteful even given how long he was king.

Edit: Total time for Faq is 60 turns...which means we've still got more than 20 turns before popping. So maybe we won't see the heir after all. Pity, I was kind of looking forward to Jillian being trolled by her likely ideologically differing progeny.

I didn't read it up, but I think it normally takes 60 turns to pop a heir, but with a turnamancer it's only 40 turns. So it should be close.

I think they pop royal heirs and normal royal warlords like Tremanis. It's not confirmed, but I would assume non-heir warlords would take less time to pop. Popping heirs is also maybe a good way to reduce the amount of units produced when your not in war and get to your limit.

Landis963
2014-10-26, 10:13 AM
Wait, there's a pun on the title? I don't get it.:smallconfused:

King Saline of Gobwin Knob was the fourth of his name, called "King Saline IV." Hence, it is only fitting that thread four (IV in roman numerals) is dedicated to his memory.

Radar
2014-10-26, 11:24 AM
(...) It really makes Slatley popping two dozenish kids look extraordinaryly wasteful even given how long he was king. (...)
A royal unit is not the same thing as an heir. An heir can either be popped (which takes humongous ammount of turns) or promoted (which takes humongous ammounts of schmuckers). Tramennis was not an heir until the battle of Spacerock. I'm not sure, whether Ansom or Ossomer were heirs or not.

memnarch
2014-10-26, 12:02 PM
Wait, there's a pun on the title? I don't get it.:smallconfused:

Last two panels for where the pun is from (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/86).

Narkis
2014-10-26, 03:36 PM
I see now. I'd forgotten King Saline was the 4th. Thanks guys.

Anteros
2014-10-26, 04:16 PM
I dunno, I find Jack and Parson enjoyable even if Parson basically gets screwed over by the plot and can't do much. Stanley is pretty unique though with the characterization he's had.

I don't really consider Sizemore or Jack to be protagonists. They're supporting characters.

Winterwind
2014-10-27, 08:07 AM
New comic update! (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/27)

So either Charlie actually wanted to diminish Jillian's chances to survive, or his attempt at getting her out alive backfired big time. Or maybe he just didn't see any good outcome either way, so he figured he might try as well.

Also, I didn't think about it as much when it first came up during the fight at Spacerock, but this mechanic of field-promotion is really weird. And makes you wonder why not everybody keeps doing that all the time - just keep your units as basic Stabbers, then, whereever you are attacked or want to engage yourself, suddenly turn them into a bunch of elite units. You'd think that would be standard procedure - no point in paying increased upkeep if you can upgrade units just at the point when you actually need them to be stronger.

Morty
2014-10-27, 08:10 AM
If I were to guess, maybe the price of a field-promotion is a good deal higher than just popping an elite unit would be.

NEO|Phyte
2014-10-27, 08:18 AM
New comic update! (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/27)

So either Charlie actually wanted to diminish Jillian's chances to survive, or his attempt at getting her out alive backfired big time. Or maybe he just didn't see any good outcome either way, so he figured he might try as well.

Also, I didn't think about it as much when it first came up during the fight at Spacerock, but this mechanic of field-promotion is really weird. And makes you wonder why not everybody keeps doing that all the time - just keep your units as basic Stabbers, then, whereever you are attacked or want to engage yourself, suddenly turn them into a bunch of elite units. You'd think that would be standard procedure - no point in paying increased upkeep if you can upgrade units just at the point when you actually need them to be stronger.

It probably helps that Gobwin Knob was sitting on a literal hoard of minable gems after the volcano uncroaking, and thanks to decrypted didn't need to spend too much on unit upkeep.

deuterio12
2014-10-27, 08:33 AM
I agree with what Morty said there.


It probably helps that Gobwin Knob was sitting on a literal hoard of minable gems after the volcano uncroaking, and thanks to decrypted didn't need to spend too much on unit upkeep.


Just because GK has decrypted doesn't mean they ever stopped producing units the old way. Most of the units assaulting Jetstone were alive actually, that's what allowed the whole food fight shenigans (living units die on fall and get decrypted, whereas decrypted who die again get dusted and can't raise again). Trammenis points out that even if all of GK's decrypted suddenly vanished, they would still have a quite powerful army left.

Also Sizemore is basically a moneymancer since he allows city upgrades/rebuilding at great discount when not mining gems.

Killer Angel
2014-10-27, 08:57 AM
New comic update! (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/27)

So either Charlie actually wanted to diminish Jillian's chances to survive,

It's a possibility, but IMO unlikely.

Given the strange relationship with Parson (I'm trying to kill you but we can chat!), probably this was also an attempt to evaluate the chances of having possible, future dialogues / options.

TheStranger
2014-10-27, 09:30 AM
New comic update! (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/27)

So either Charlie actually wanted to diminish Jillian's chances to survive, or his attempt at getting her out alive backfired big time. Or maybe he just didn't see any good outcome either way, so he figured he might try as well.

Also, I didn't think about it as much when it first came up during the fight at Spacerock, but this mechanic of field-promotion is really weird. And makes you wonder why not everybody keeps doing that all the time - just keep your units as basic Stabbers, then, whereever you are attacked or want to engage yourself, suddenly turn them into a bunch of elite units. You'd think that would be standard procedure - no point in paying increased upkeep if you can upgrade units just at the point when you actually need them to be stronger.

I think it did backfire a bit. His offer looks foolish from our perspective, since we see Parson learning from it that Jillian is still alive, and responding by beefing up his forces. But from Charlie's perspective? He probably doesn't know that Parson doesn't know whether Jillian survived the fall; Parson's intel has been impressive thus far, and Charlie would be foolish to bet against Parson knowing what happened. And Charlie doesn't necessarily have great intel either; he only knows Jillian survived because Vanna didn't disband. So he doesn't know everything, and he doesn't know how much Parson knows, so he makes an offer. And to be honest, I'm not sure taking Charlie's offer wouldn't have been the smart move; even with the field promotions, it's not clear that Gobwin Knob has the advantage here, and if they fail to get to Jillian here they could be in trouble on FAQ's turn. Of course, it's also not clear whether Parson had the option to take Charlie's offer; he would have to sell Stanley on the idea first.

As for field promotions, I get the impression that it's an expensive proposition, but that Gobwin Knob is swimming in schmuckers right now. Ordinarily, it's probably cheaper to pop the units you want. Field promotions may also interfere with unit leveling; we don't know if they retain their levels when they promote, or whether they would level faster if they started as knight-class units.

deuterio12
2014-10-27, 09:44 AM
I think it did backfire a bit. His offer looks foolish from our perspective, since we see Parson learning from it that Jillian is still alive, and responding by beefing up his forces. But from Charlie's perspective? He probably doesn't know that Parson doesn't know whether Jillian survived the fall; Parson's intel has been impressive thus far, and Charlie would be foolish to bet against Parson knowing what happened. And Charlie doesn't necessarily have great intel either; he only knows Jillian survived because Vanna didn't disband. So he doesn't know everything, and he doesn't know how much Parson knows, so he makes an offer. And to be honest, I'm not sure taking Charlie's offer wouldn't have been the smart move; even with the field promotions, it's not clear that Gobwin Knob has the advantage here, and if they fail to get to Jillian here they could be in trouble on FAQ's turn. Of course, it's also not clear whether Parson had the option to take Charlie's offer; he would have to sell Stanley on the idea first.



Jillian can't run from the hex, and she won't get her turn until Stanley ends his. So GK's forces literally have all the time in the world to search the forest for her. The only way they could fail is Jillian's remaining forces beating them, but then Jillian would have zero reason to retreat when it is her turn, and then they would be sitting ducks when FAQ's turn came.

But agreed that Charlie probably suspected that Parson already knew that Jillian was still alive.

Kornaki
2014-10-27, 10:09 AM
As far as field promotions, I agree that added cost is probably a reason we don't see it so much. Another is a misunderstanding of leveraged situations; watch baseball and you will see teams pay their best relief pitchers to pitch when the game is virtually wrapped up, but not when they desperately need an out in the 6th inning.

It is common for people to think they need to save their best reserves for the last steps of a game, not for when the outcome is actually being decided. It seems reasonable to me that people look at that extra cost of field upgrades, and say 'no, I'm better off saving these Schmuckers to pop three knight units later rather than upgrade two units to knight status now', without considering the additional advantage that those two knights can bring by being upgraded now instead of later. If you upgrade those units and still lose the fight you look stupid for breaking conventional protocol, and people avoid those types of situations like the plague.

super dark33
2014-10-27, 10:20 AM
Me im wondering whats the name fo the fresh new warlord.