Starting Warlock what I've noticed

[DontEatRawHagis]

A few things. Forgive me if t has already been said before some where else.

Invocations are really good especially the one that adds your Cha mod to Eldritch Blast. Honestly between this and my wand of Magic Missile I had no issues.

I have no reason to take a Pact Gift in my eyes as none of them give me anything I'm sorely missing. This brings up a question which pact is better for invocations do you think?

And Hex is a damn good Boss Room clearer when everything is setup well.

[CyberThread]

Pact gifts round off a character.

An summonable magic weapon?

A famaliar that can fly true vision or even cast a few minor abilities.

Or a ritual book giving you 10 mins to cast spells of a wide swath of daily surviving values. With all that gold you earn. From any spell list.


Don't think of them as class abilities but rather a clear signifiure of what you want your warlock to be snd roleplay as.

[Strill]

I have no reason to take a Pact Gift in my eyes as none of them give me anything I'm sorely missing. This brings up a question which pact is better for invocations do you think?

Tome's "Book of Ancient Secrets" invocation gets you an ordinary familiar via the Find Familiar spell, plus a ton of really useful divination and fortune-telling spells from the cleric list, plus some awesome out-of-combat utility spells like Phantom Steed, Animal Messenger, and Leomund's Tiny Hut. The cantrips are also great since you can get stuff like Shilleleigh for melee damage, Shocking Grasp for a better alternative to using melee weapons, or Guidance because it's crazy overpowered.

Chain gives you an incredibly powerful familiar. Among other things, you can get a familiar with permanent invisibility, making a perfect spy. Combined with an invocation, you can have your familiar spy for you from any distance at all, giving forewarning of any and all threats. Alternatively, you can leave your familiar to spy on suspicious NPCs in town to find out where their allegiances lie.

Blade, in my opinion, is terrible. You'll need to take two invocations just to keep its damage on par with Eldritch Blast, but it will still have much less damage anyway, so there's no reason to use it. The only convincing use for it that I've heard of is for when you're stuck in melee range and don't want disadvantage from using Eldritch Blast, but in that case I'd just recommend going with the Tome Pact and using Shocking Grasp instead.

Finally, don't forget to get the Repelling Blast invocation! That thing is amazingly good! 10 feet of knockback with NO SAVE is absolutely incredible, and will let you do all sorts of things, like group up enemies for an incoming fireball, push enemies off ledges and into traps, or just push enemies away from you to protect yourself.

[Shining Wrath]

Tome's "Book of Ancient Secrets" invocation gets you an ordinary familiar via the Find Familiar spell, plus a ton of really useful divination and fortune-telling spells from the cleric list, plus some awesome out-of-combat utility spells like Phantom Steed, Animal Messenger, and Leomund's Tiny Hut. The cantrips are also great since you can get stuff like Shilleleigh for melee damage, Shocking Grasp for a better alternative to using melee weapons, or Guidance because it's crazy overpowered.

Chain gives you an incredibly powerful familiar. Among other things, you can get a familiar with permanent invisibility, making a perfect spy. Combined with an invocation, you can have your familiar spy for you from any distance at all, giving forewarning of any and all threats. Alternatively, you can leave your familiar to spy on suspicious NPCs in town to find out where their allegiances lie.

Blade, in my opinion, is terrible. You'll need to take two invocations just to keep its damage on par with Eldritch Blast, but it will still have much less damage anyway, so there's no reason to use it. The only convincing use for it that I've heard of is for when you're stuck in melee range and don't want disadvantage from using Eldritch Blast, but in that case I'd just recommend going with the Tome Pact and using Shocking Grasp instead.

Finally, don't forget to get the Repelling Blast invocation! That thing is amazingly good! 10 feet of knockback with NO SAVE is absolutely incredible, and will let you do all sorts of things, like group up enemies for an incoming fireball, push enemies off ledges and into traps, or just push enemies away from you to protect yourself.

The redeeming feature of Blade is that you can summon your weapon anywhere. There are times when you're not supposed to be carrying a weapon (in the presence of royalty, say) and being able to pull one out of thin air is a good thing.

[Strill]

The redeeming feature of Blade is that you can summon your weapon anywhere. There are times when you're not supposed to be carrying a weapon (in the presence of royalty, say) and being able to pull one out of thin air is a good thing.

Alternatively, you simply use Eldritch Blast.

[Intercessor]

I made my Warlock with the intention of taking the Pact of the Blade assuming that there would be better invocations (I didn't have an opportunity to look past the pact descriptions), upon getting a second opportunity with the book when getting up to level 3, I ditched it for Pact of the Chain because the Blade is just kinda lame and is not up to snuff compared to EB, whilst Pact of the Chain gets access to the Hold Monster invocation.

[Strill]

I made my Warlock with the intention of taking the Pact of the Blade assuming that there would be better invocations (I didn't have an opportunity to look past the pact descriptions), upon getting a second opportunity with the book when getting up to level 3, I ditched it for Pact of the Chain because the Blade is just kinda lame and is not up to snuff compared to EB, whilst Pact of the Chain gets access to the Hold Monster invocation.

This gets to the heart of the difficulty in balancing Pact of the Blade. As-is, Pact of the Blade gives you a basic melee attack that's nearly identical to the Paladin's. The problem is, this attack is still outclassed by Eldritch Blast. How do you make it more powerful without making it overpowered?

You're also missing a ton of other stuff that melee classes have, such as: Heavy Armor Proficiency, Fighting styles, Healing, or Athletics proficiency.

However, IF you take Polearm Master, and take both of the Blade Pact invocations, and take the Armor of Shadows invocation, and manage to deal with your crazy MAD, then your pact weapon can deal about as much damage as Eldritch Blast. But in that case, Eldritch Blast gets repelling Blast, allowing it to knock enemies around all over the place, while you still have nothing comparable. So Eldritch Blast still wins.

Blade Pact just really needs a big buff.

[Eslin]

Pact of the blade is amazing in a charisma based (paladin/fighter/bard) multiclass build

[Cambrian]

Pact of the blade is amazing in a charisma based (paladin/fighter/bard) multiclass buildAgreed. A choice doesn't have to be the best, but it should be functional. Pact of the blade is functional and allows many unique character concepts.

[Chaosvii7]

Alternatively, you simply use Eldritch Blast.

Oh please. There's plenty of ways to make the damage outscale Eldritch Blast. STR, extra attacks, a meaty weapon, and Lifedrinker let you easily outpace it if you're hellbent on it.

[Strill]

Oh please. There's plenty of ways to make the damage outscale Eldritch Blast. STR, extra attacks, a meaty weapon, and Lifedrinker let you easily outpace it if you're hellbent on it.

STR, extra attacks, lifedrinker, and a meaty weapon are not enough. You also need Polearm mastery, and your STR needs to be at least 14 to pull ahead in damage.

Level 11: 20 CHA, 14 STR, Polearm Mastery, Lifedrinker, Thirsting Blade, Agonizing Blast
Eldritch Blast: 3d10 + CHAx3 = 31.5
Pact Blade: 2d10 + 1d4 + STRx3 + CHAx3 = 34.5

On the other hand, if the Eldritch Blast user uses their bonus action to activate Hex, then the Pact weapon falls behind in damage again.

Eldritch Blast: 3d10 + 3d6 + CHAx3 = 42
Pact Blade: 2d10 + 1d4 + STRx3 + CHAx3 = 34.5

Keep in mind that even in the best case, you're still not even matching Eldritch Blast because you don't even get any knockback on hit like you would with Eldritch Blast. The feat, Pact, and two invocations you've spent do nothing but allow you to do Eldritch Blast-level damage in melee. You gain no other utility or information gathering abilities like the other Pacts do. You don't get Repelling Blast. You also don't have heavy armor proficiencies to support being in melee, which gives you MAD.

[Hytheter]

Oh please. There's plenty of ways to make the damage outscale Eldritch Blast. STR, extra attacks, a meaty weapon, and Lifedrinker let you easily outpace it if you're hellbent on it.

Eldritch blast can add charisma though, which is equal to adding STR to a weapon (not to mention that Charisma is more useful to Warlocks), and it also gets more attacks than a warlock (or any non-fighter) can get with a weapon, so those aren't valid points; they don't let you match EB let alone outscale. The only weapons meatier than EB are two handed, so now you need to use a feat to get War Caster or forget about casting spells with somatic components. And even then you're only marginally outdoing EB on a single attack basis (though EB will get more attacks eventually) which let's you hold a shield and still have a free hand and spend your feat elsewhere. Lifedrinker means you add an extra modifier, which is nice, but EB gets more attacks, which means adding your modifier more times as well extra dice rolls.

I don't see how the Melee route even matches pure Eldritch Bladt, let alone "easily outpaces".

[Strill]

Eldritch blast can add charisma though, which is equal to adding STR to a weapon (not to mention that Charisma is more useful to Warlocks), and it also gets more attacks than a warlock (or any non-fighter) can get with a weapon, so those aren't valid points; they don't let you match EB let alone outscale. The only weapons meatier than EB are two handed, so now you need to use a feat to get War Caster or forget about casting spells with somatic components. And even then you're only marginally outdoing EB on a single attack basis (though EB will get more attacks eventually) which let's you hold a shield and still have a free hand and spend your feat elsewhere. Lifedrinker means you add an extra modifier, which is nice, but EB gets more attacks, which means adding your modifier more times as well extra dice rolls.

I don't see how the Melee route even matches pure Eldritch Bladt, let alone "easily outpaces".

To be fair, you can arguably take one hand off your 2-hander to cast if you need to. It would just stop you from using opportunity attacks that turn.

[desero clades]

What about the whole masochistic melee build? Go with Fiend, Cast Armor of Agathys (or better if higher level), and use blade ward as needed. Lots of temp HP and retaliating damage. Go with a reach weapon (and pole arm mastery) and just wade into the middle of a hoard of enemies, heck you WANT to provoke attacks of opportunity.

[Theodoxus]

STR, extra attacks, lifedrinker, and a meaty weapon are not enough. You also need Polearm mastery, and your STR needs to be at least 14 to pull ahead in damage.

Level 11: 20 CHA, 14 STR, Polearm Mastery, Lifedrinker, Thirsting Blade, Agonizing Blast
Eldritch Blast: 3d10 + CHAx3 = 31.5
Pact Blade: 2d10 + 1d4 + STRx3 + CHAx3 = 34.5

On the other hand, if the Eldritch Blast user uses their bonus action to activate Hex, then the Pact weapon falls behind in damage again.

Eldritch Blast: 3d10 + 3d6 + CHAx3 = 42
Pact Blade: 2d10 + 1d4 + STRx3 + CHAx3 = 34.5

Keep in mind that even in the best case, you're still not even matching Eldritch Blast because you don't even get any knockback on hit like you would with Eldritch Blast. The feat, Pact, and two invocations you've spent do nothing but allow you to do Eldritch Blast-level damage in melee. You gain no other utility or information gathering abilities like the other Pacts do. You don't get Repelling Blast. You also don't have heavy armor proficiencies to support being in melee, which gives you MAD.

What's keeping the Pact of Blade guy from using Hex too?

[Intercessor]

This gets to the heart of the difficulty in balancing Pact of the Blade. As-is, Pact of the Blade gives you a basic melee attack that's nearly identical to the Paladin's. The problem is, this attack is still outclassed by Eldritch Blast. How do you make it more powerful without making it overpowered?

An invocation I had expected was one rather like Eldritch Glaive from 3.5 (I skipped 4e) where you would be able to add your EB damage and effects to your Pact weapon (if you get multiple attacks the EB stuff only applies to the first successful attack that round), the obvious balancing factors being that:
1. It is melee range.
2. Less attacks than a "real" fighting type.
3. Less physically proficient than a "real" fighting type.
4. Has a heavy Invocations tax.

I haven't looked closely at anyone but the Warlocks yet, but I imagine that such an invocation would close the gap much more between them and other melee-ers without replacing them (though they do still get spells), and because it still is based off EB, you don't have to worry about scaling against blasty Warlocks of other Pacts.

[Chaosvii7]

What's keeping the Pact of Blade guy from using Hex too?

To that effect, there's plenty of ways to get extra attacks, especially with some dips and other class features. I'm not saying Bladelock is the best single-class damage dealer, but from a purely damage perspective it has as much potential as any other warlock with Agonizing Blast. And there's plenty of other reasons to take it.

[Strill]

What's keeping the Pact of Blade guy from using Hex too?

Hex costs a bonus action, but Polearm Mastery's third attack costs a bonus action too.

Polearm Mastery also gives a chance for a reaction attack, which if successful would finally bump their damage up to match Eldritch Blast, but still wouldn't give them any of the utility of Repelling Blast.

[Theodoxus]

Hex costs a bonus action, but Polearm Mastery's third attack costs a bonus action too.

Polearm Mastery also gives a chance for a reaction attack, which if successful would finally bump their damage up to match Eldritch Blast, but still wouldn't give them any of the utility of Repelling Blast.

Hex's bonus action is only when it's cast or moved to a new target. If you're one shoting guys every round with your bonus polearm attack of 1d4 you're probably better off Hexing them anyway. Otherwise, you cast Hex on the boss and swing twice, then the next round, get all three attacks, with the hex boost on all three. Hex becomes a non-factor in pure damage discussions, it's equal on both sides. (Which was my point in the rhetorical question.)

[Hytheter]

To that effect, there's plenty of ways to get extra attacks, especially with some dips and other class features.

Just to be clear, you know Thirsting Blade and Extra Attack don't stack, right? And all the other class features I can think of that give extra attaks use a bonus action, which means (afaik) you can never get more than 3 melee attacks without taking 11+ Fighter levels or using Flurry of Blows (which doesn't benefit from Pact of the Blade anyway).

Also, remember that Lifedrinker doesn't become available until level 12. Any dips will either have to come after that or push it back even further, and until then you're melee-ing on Strength alone.


Hex's bonus action is only when it's cast or moved to a new target. If you're one shoting guys every round with your bonus polearm attack of 1d4 you're probably better off Hexing them anyway. Otherwise, you cast Hex on the boss and swing twice, then the next round, get all three attacks, with the hex boost on all three. Hex becomes a non-factor in pure damage discussions, it's equal on both sides. (Which was my point in the rhetorical question.)

I wouldn't say it's totally equal, since the Melee attacker will have to forfeit at least one attack per battle to use Hex, more so if there are numerous enemies instead of a single boss. Meanwhile the Eldritch Blaster can move hex and still fire 3 beams as he pleases. That's an extra d10+d6+cha in the first round against every opponent. From range, with knockback, all available before lifedrinker.

[MeeposFire]

Also EB gets up to 4 beams which means it will be even further ahead once it gains that extra attack. IN addition after the first round (assuming you use it for hex) you get your bonus action to use for other things when you use EB but you need to use your bonus action to try to keep up with EB if you use the hexblade.

[Strill]

Just to be clear, you know Thirsting Blade and Extra Attack don't stack, right? And all the other class features I can think of that give extra attaks use a bonus action, which means (afaik) you can never get more than 3 melee attacks without taking 11+ Fighter levels or using Flurry of Blows (which doesn't benefit from Pact of the Blade anyway).
Ranger 3 gives you Horde Breaker which can give you an extra attack that stacks with other extra attacks.

[Hytheter]

Oh yeah, and Hex requires concentration which can be difficult to maintain in melee. War Caster is practically mandatory between that and somatic components, which is problematic when you're already MAD as hell and really need those ability boosts.


Ranger 3 gives you Horde Breaker which can give you an extra attack that stacks with other extra attacks.

Oh, ok, that's actually really cool. I wasn't aware of that. Unfortunately it's kind of situational, since your enemies need to be close together.

[Chaosvii7]

Just to be clear, you know Thirsting Blade and Extra Attack don't stack, right?

War Cleric.

Berserker Frenzy.

A friend casting Haste.

I'm sure there's more.

Heck, even a 2-level dip for Action Surge gives you more attacks.

(Yes, I know.)

[Hytheter]

War Cleric.

Berserker Frenzy.

Both use bonus actions and don't escape the three attack limit I mentioned earlier, as well as impeding Hex.

Haste is a valid point, I'll give you that one.

[Freelance GM]

Guys! Guys! Can't we just compromise here?

Multiclass for 7 levels of Eldritch Knight.

That way, you can hit them with your optimized Pact Weapon AND cast Eldritch Blast.

[BRKNdevil]

wouldn't it be easy enough to just get rid of the invocation tax? just give it for free as level appropriate if they seem to lag behind if your dm