Fack my life

[Val666]

Earlier I asked help with a Binder Necromancer build. Sadly one of the other players did something and now I can't play it. The DM stated that only CORE + COMPLETES must be used and maybe laaaater something else may be added.

Guys...please help me build the most OP thing within core + complete reach. Im going to stomp that person.

Thanks <3

[Extra Anchovies]

Wizard 20.

What's your goal? What sort of character do you want? What sort of character do they have? What did they do that convinced the DM to allow only core+completes?
Or maybe Druid 20.

[Val666]

Wizard 20.

What's your goal? What sort of character do you want? What sort of character do they have? What did they do that convinced the DM to allow only core+completes?
Or maybe Druid 20.

Ok. I knew some will answer druid/wizard/cleric 20. Im looking for something more flavorful and for those 3 options I'd like cleric involved. Ok...I showed my DM the build: Binder 6/Ur Priest 2/Tenebrous Apostate 5/ X 7 and he said it's ok I'll look at binder/TA and everything else is alright, it's from completes and core. THEN THAT....PERSON showed him a build full of **** from more than 8 or 9 sourcebooks and DM said: **** it, stick with core and completes. I tried to reply but he went: My laws applies to everyone or something like that.

Edit: For the moment (we are 3 players) we have a Bard because his build was affected too. The other guy is looking for another build too.

[Extra Anchovies]

Cleric 20.

Honestly, don't build a character for PvP unless the game is explicitly PvP. Inter-party fighting (as opposed to inter-party RP conflicts, which can be great fun) can tear apart a game where the PCs are meant to stick together. Be careful.

Spirit Shaman 20.

[A_S]

What levels do you expect to be playing at?

[Troacctid]

I mean, Ur-Priest is still in Completes, and it gives you full 9th level casting in half as many levels as a straight Cleric, so there's that.

[Val666]

We are starting level 1. This games usually don't involve any wealth by level but we get stupid good items from DM. Ok..what about a build involving Ur Priest just with Core + Completes? is it better than Cleric 20?

[A_S]

We are starting level 1. This games usually don't involve any wealth by level but we get stupid good items from DM. Ok..what about a build involving Ur Priest just with Core + Completes? is it better than Cleric 20?

It depends on how you build into it. For purposes of Cleric casting (i.e., max spell level), it's weaker from levels 1-9, about the same from levels 10-11, stronger from levels 12-16, and then about the same again from 17 on. Since you're starting at level 1, that doesn't sound like a great deal for you. But maybe there's something awesome you want to do with your first 5 levels that will make up for delayed spell progression. Or maybe you just want to be an evil atheist with superpowers.

One thing worth asking: Does your DM include everything in the SRD as "core," or only the stuff in the rulebooks? There are a lot of variants from Unearthed Arcana that are on the online SRD that might be relevant.

[Val666]

It depends on how you build into it. For purposes of Cleric casting (i.e., max spell level), it's weaker from levels 1-9, about the same from levels 10-11, stronger from levels 12-16, and then about the same again from 17 on. Since you're starting at level 1, that doesn't sound like a great deal for you. But maybe there's something awesome you want to do with your first 5 levels that will make up for delayed spell progression. Or maybe you just want to be an evil atheist with superpowers.

One thing worth asking: Does your DM include everything in the SRD as "core," or only the stuff in the rulebooks? There are a lot of variants from Unearthed Arcana that are on the online SRD that might be relevant.

At the moment he is including rulebooks only, but Unearthed Arcana may come in for the play. I'll ask him. Still what kind of build involing Ur Priest + Core and Completes you have in mind :v?

[Divide by Zero]

We are starting level 1. This games usually don't involve any wealth by level but we get stupid good items from DM. Ok..what about a build involving Ur Priest just with Core + Completes? is it better than Cleric 20?

Arcane class/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge or psionic class/Ur-Priest/Psychic Theurge is pretty solid at all levels.

Not sure if Psychic Theurge will be allowed since it's in a web enhancement, but it's literally just Mystic Theurge with psionics swapped in so it's hardly a ridiculous request. And if Completes are in then Ardent is in, which has Wis synergy too (and Practiced Manifester means you aren't even a power level behind after you start Ur-Priest).

[Troacctid]

Arcane caster into Ur-Priest Mystic Theurge is always nice and cheesy. Or Warlock into Ur-Priest Eldritch Disciple could work too--I've never played a Warlock in a game that starts at 1st level, but I've been told Summon Swarm is very nasty early on.

[Val666]

What about a Gishy like build involving Ur-Priest and maybe monk. What you guys think about that?

[Extra Anchovies]

What about a Gishy like build involving Ur-Priest and maybe monk. What you guys think about that?

...You don't gish things with monk. At least, not if you want OP.

[Troacctid]

Monk is pretty much the polar opposite of OP. Not that starting off with a martial class in levels 1-5 before going Ur-Priest is a terrible idea, since it keeps you relevant early without giving anything up later, but I'm sure you can do better than Monk.

[Val666]

I just meant 1 monk level for wis to ac :c

Edit: Well I think Cleric 20 is my best bet for now.

[Extra Anchovies]

I just meant 1 monk level for wis to ac :c

Pick up a monk's belt, honestly. Don't spend a character level when you could instead spend gold.

[A_S]

Monk 2/X 3/Ur-Priest 1/Sacred Fist 10 (where X is one or more full BAB classes) is pretty respectable. Monk abilities + Wis synergy give pretty good defenses, Cleric buffs make up for Monk's lackluster offense, and you can pick up Travel Devotion to solve the Monk's "can't use fast movement and flurry in the same round" issue.

Not, like, totally unbelievably OP (gishing is pretty much never really better than just going all-out T1 caster), but it's a perfectly respectable gish build.

[Val666]

Monk 2/X 3/Ur-Priest 1/Sacred Fist 10 (where X is one or more full BAB classes) is pretty respectable. Monk abilities + Wis synergy give pretty good defenses, Cleric buffs make up for Monk's lackluster offense, and you can pick up Travel Devotion to solve the Monk's "can't use fast movement and flurry in the same round" issue.

Not, like, totally unbelievably OP (gishing is pretty much never really better than just going all-out T1 caster), but it's a perfectly respectable gish build.

Thanks for the build bro. Maybe Ur Priest 2 for turn/rebuke? I just want to crush the other player hard...like...really hard and Im not looking for pvp builds or nothing. Im going to crush him in everyway I can (that means stealing his in game girlfriend).

[Troacctid]

Passive-aggressively ruining someone's experience is probably not a recipe for good gaming. Perhaps you would be better off trying to talk the DM into letting ToM back in the game.

[A_S]

Thanks for the build bro. Maybe Ur Priest 2 for turn/rebuke?
Yes, I forgot you don't get it at level 1.


I just want to crush the other player hard...like...really hard and Im not looking for pvp builds or nothing. Im going to crush him in everyway I can (that means stealing his in game girlfriend).
Is this a, like, friendly and DM-approved in-character rivalry that you are both going to enjoy? If so, good on you, have fun playing it out. Unless it comes down to PvP, though (which you should try to make sure it doesn't unless the other player and the DM are both in on it), humiliating another character is usually more a matter of roleplaying than mechanics...saying just the right snarky thing at just the right time, actually stealing his in-game girlfriend (with your superior pick-up lines), etc.

If it's not a mutually-agreed-upon in-character rivalry, and you're actually trying to screw over one of the other players in your group, well...think long and hard about that. I'm not gonna say there's never a time when ruining somebody else's game experience is justified (where would we be without Old Man Henderson (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Old_Man_Henderson)), but it's rarely going to go the way most people want it to, where you just display your superiority and then you've won. Instead, you're almost certainly going to ruin the game and your gaming group, if you don't just get kicked out first.

[Val666]

Yes, I forgot you don't get it at level 1.


Is this a, like, friendly and DM-approved in-character rivalry that you are both going to enjoy? If so, good on you, have fun playing it out. Unless it comes down to PvP, though (which you should try to make sure it doesn't unless the other player and the DM are both in on it), humiliating another character is usually more a matter of roleplaying than mechanics...saying just the right snarky thing at just the right time, actually stealing his in-game girlfriend (with your superior pick-up lines), etc.

If it's not a mutually-agreed-upon in-character rivalry, and you're actually trying to screw over one of the other players in your group, well...think long and hard about that. I'm not gonna say there's never a time when ruining somebody else's game experience is justified (where would we be without Old Man Henderson (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Old_Man_Henderson)), but it's rarely going to go the way most people want it to, where you just display your superiority and then you've won. Instead, you're almost certainly going to ruin the game and your gaming group, if you don't just get kicked out first.

Don't worry, I won't be kicked out and the other player is a close friend. He knows I always have concrete builds that contribute to the party (and stomp his builds) but this time I wanted to play the Binder...so..it's just like a tantrum or something from me e.e still...I want to look over a cool build that can smack him down if he try something (because I always beat him at roleplaying too...and he had done it in the past). Im not trying to ruin anyone experience, and knowing the other player (which is the other player cousin, and hates him) and my DM (which is a long time friend) we will laugh a lot.

[ranagrande]

Do you include PHB2 in Core?

If so, Beguiler/Rainbow Servant would do nicely.

[Val666]

Do you include PHB2 in Core?

If so, Beguiler/Rainbow Servant would do nicely.

I'll have to ask. What do you have in mind o.o?

[A_S]

I'll have to ask. What do you have in mind o.o?
Beguiler (like Dread Necromancer and Warmage) knows its entire spell list, and casts any spell from that list spontaneously. Rainbow Servant adds various domain spells and (at level 10) the entire Cleric spell list to your spell list. It was written with Wizard/Sorcerer spell learning mechanics in mind, where you'd still have to spend spells known on the Cleric stuff to cast it, but if you enter via a full list caster like Beguiler, you just instantly get access to all the spells.

Also, the table indicates that it progresses 6/10 spellcasting, but the text of the class features says every level, and per the Rules Compendium, text trumps table.

Putting these together, at level 16 (Beguiler 6/Rainbow Servant 10 or similar), you suddenly cast spontaneously from the entire Beguiler list, the entire Cleric list, and the Good, Air, and Law domain lists, with no lost casting progression.

[aleucard]

Beguiler (like Dread Necromancer and Warmage) knows its entire spell list, and casts any spell from that list spontaneously. Rainbow Servant adds various domain spells and (at level 10) the entire Cleric spell list to your spell list. It was written with Wizard/Sorcerer spell learning mechanics in mind, where you'd still have to spend spells known on the Cleric stuff to cast it, but if you enter via a full list caster like Beguiler, you just instantly get access to all the spells.

Also, the table indicates that it progresses 6/10 spellcasting, but the text of the class features says every level, and per the Rules Compendium, text trumps table.

Putting these together, at level 16 (Beguiler 6/Rainbow Servant 10 or similar), you suddenly cast spontaneously from the entire Beguiler list, the entire Cleric list, and the Good, Air, and Law domain lists, with no lost casting progression.

That is just disgusting. :smallbiggrin: There any room for other interesting things, maybe swapping out one of those Beguiler levels for Shadowcraft Mage to go full-tilt on the insanity (Whisper Gnome obviously, though you'd have to convince your DM to let Races of Stone slide)? There should be a couple caster classes that are good for five levels. Abjurant Champion may be an interesting option if you can find something appropriate on the lists you have access to, and that's right in the Complete Mage book.

[Val666]

Ok so I was talking to my friend which is going Bard (the cousin of the guy who will be stomped) and I decided to play a Sorcadin. Just with Core and Completes, which ideas do you guys have?

[SciChronic]

"A-Game Paladin" (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376) can cast arcane spells as divine, meaning arcane spell failure bypass. Plus you get to use inspire courage, and do your bard's job as well. But due to you not having access to MIC or BoED, your inspire will be kind of gimped, but your bard is under the same constraints.

[Val666]

"A-Game Paladin" (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376) can cast arcane spells as divine, meaning arcane spell failure bypass. Plus you get to use inspire courage, and do your bard's job as well. But due to you not having access to MIC or BoED, your inspire will be kind of gimped, but your bard is under the same constraints.

Yeah...just Core + Completes and PH II. The A-Game Paladin uses to many surcebooks this game is not allowing so...yeah :c

[ranagrande]

Sorcerer 4/Paladin 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

Core and Completes, able to get four attacks and 9th level spells.

[Val666]

Sorcerer 4/Paladin 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

Core and Completes, able to get four attacks and 9th level spells.

Well..yeah. Thats the standard build right? what about feats? e-e

[Amphetryon]

I am not condoning PvP or 'tantrums' (to use the OP's term). That said:

Human Cleric 8/Paragnostic Apostle 2/Contemplative 1/Divine Oracle 6/Paragnostic Apostle +3. (Order may need some tweaking, and there's no reason NOT to take Cloistered Cleric for at least one level if available). Worship Vecna or another available god/ideal that grants the Knowledge and Magic domains.

Base stats: STR 8 DEX 8 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 18 CHA 14

Feats: Skill Focus (K. Religion), Extra Turning, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM Persist, Knowledge Devotion, Magic Devotion, Spontaneous Domains.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Well..yeah. Thats the standard build right? what about feats? e-e

That is the standard build. For feats on this build I suggest Power Attack, Combat Casting, Arcane Strike, and one or two of Law Devotion/Animal Devotion/Strength Devotion/Travel Devotion. After you get turn undead from Sacred Exorcist I suggest Extra Turning to fule those devotion feats.

[Val666]

That is the standard build. For feats on this build I suggest Power Attack, Combat Casting, Arcane Strike, and one or two of Law Devotion/Animal Devotion/Strength Devotion/Travel Devotion. After you get turn undead from Sacred Exorcist I suggest Extra Turning to fule those devotion feats.

Thanks for the tips!


I am not condoning PvP or 'tantrums' (to use the OP's term). That said:

Human Cleric 8/Paragnostic Apostle 2/Contemplative 1/Divine Oracle 6/Paragnostic Apostle +3. (Order may need some tweaking, and there's no reason NOT to take Cloistered Cleric for at least one level if available). Worship Vecna or another available god/ideal that grants the Knowledge and Magic domains.

Base stats: STR 8 DEX 8 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 18 CHA 14

Feats: Skill Focus (K. Religion), Extra Turning, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM Persist, Knowledge Devotion, Magic Devotion, Spontaneous Domains.

Wow...that build scares me .-. I'll looking deeper in it

[Twilightwyrm]

I assume you already asked if you could get your Binder character grandfathered in, since it was not super-broken to begin with, and the DM was already considering it PRIOR to that other person trying to pull some shenanigans? Especially if he has no problems with the build, outside of it using non-Core+Completes material, it would be well within your right to point out that it isn't really fair that everyone else should have to sacrifice the characters they have in mind, just because this guy tried to pull a fast one.
Or alternatively, convince him to adopt a more flexible "Core+Completes allowed, all else must be explicitly given the okay my me" policy. This still allows him to quash the more unreasonable builds, without punishing those that have a legitimately cool idea.

[atemu1234]

I'm partial to Gish, myself. Ur-Priest has the nasty requirement of being non-good, so if you're looking for a good character go with Wizard/Fighter/Abjurant Champion/Eldritch Knight to fill the gaps.

[Val666]

I'm partial to Gish, myself. Ur-Priest has the nasty requirement of being non-good, so if you're looking for a good character go with Wizard/Fighter/Abjurant Champion/Eldritch Knight to fill the gaps.

Uhm...well since Unearthed Arcana is not allowed, I'll have to play the stupid lawful good sorcadin (which will turn to blackward later...) but thanks for the suggestion! I'll look over it


I assume you already asked if you could get your Binder character grandfathered in, since it was not super-broken to begin with, and the DM was already considering it PRIOR to that other person trying to pull some shenanigans? Especially if he has no problems with the build, outside of it using non-Core+Completes material, it would be well within your right to point out that it isn't really fair that everyone else should have to sacrifice the characters they have in mind, just because this guy tried to pull a fast one.
Or alternatively, convince him to adopt a more flexible "Core+Completes allowed, all else must be explicitly given the okay my me" policy. This still allows him to quash the more unreasonable builds, without punishing those that have a legitimately cool idea.

Yeah, I already asked about Binder and all that stuff but he says: "It's not fair that you can use non-core+complete books and the other don't, get over it Dx" he also said that as the game proggress he may let some other stuff but for the moment just core + completes.

[Twilightwyrm]

Yeah, I already asked about Binder and all that stuff but he says: "It's not fair that you can use non-core+complete books and the other don't, get over it Dx" he also said that as the game proggress he may let some other stuff but for the moment just core + completes.

That's...while I can see how that policy would be attractive to some DMs, it is rather misguided. Saying "as the game progresses I may allow some other things" doesn't actually help the players at all, because unless rebuilding is cheap and easy in your campaign setting, they won't be able to actually use most of the new stuff anyways. Unless they die. And given dying is something, as a player, you are generally trying to avoid, that's rather unhelpful. You shouldn't have to martyr your first character for the sake of making the character you were wanting to make to begin with.
And while I get the idea behind saying "well it wouldn't be fair to the others players", such a situation is easily remedied my making it a "Core+Completes allowed, all else must be explicitly given the okay my me". With such a system, it is hardly unfair to the other players, because they are just as able to run stuff by the DM as you are. If you've given up at this point, feel free to take any of the great suggestions here, but if you think your DM may be able to be convinced by reasonable argument (some DMs aren't) then at least propose this later option.

[Val666]

That's...while I can see how that policy would be attractive to some DMs, it is rather misguided. Saying "as the game progresses I may allow some other things" doesn't actually help the players at all, because unless rebuilding is cheap and easy in your campaign setting, they won't be able to actually use most of the new stuff anyways. Unless they die. And given dying is something, as a player, you are generally trying to avoid, that's rather unhelpful. You shouldn't have to martyr your first character for the sake of making the character you were wanting to make to begin with.
And while I get the idea behind saying "well it wouldn't be fair to the others players", such a situation is easily remedied my making it a "Core+Completes allowed, all else must be explicitly given the okay my me". With such a system, it is hardly unfair to the other players, because they are just as able to run stuff by the DM as you are. If you've given up at this point, feel free to take any of the great suggestions here, but if you think your DM may be able to be convinced by reasonable argument (some DMs aren't) then at least propose this later option.

Well...woah...

Im definetly playing a Sorcadin. I have one more question. How do I get knowledge (the planes) as a class skill? like...Sorcerer,Paladin,Abjurant Champion nor Spellsword have it ._.

[Amphetryon]

Well...woah...

Im definetly playing a Sorcadin. I have one more question. How do I get knowledge (the planes) as a class skill? like...Sorcerer,Paladin,Abjurant Champion nor Spellsword have it ._.
Knowledge Devotion gives you a Knowledge skill as a class skill.

[Val666]

Knowledge Devotion gives you a Knowledge skill as a class skill.

Thanks for the tip :v

[Val666]

Ok so Sorcadin it is!

Now that I got suggestion with feats, I may want help to fill the blanks. Since no flaws are allowed and Im playing human, It goes like this:

1) Combat Casting, Power Attack
3) Knowledge Devotion
6) Extended Spell
9) Arcane Strike
12) Persistent Spell
15) Divine Might
18) DMM: Persistent Spell

Does this looks good? Also, what about ability scores priority? Should Str be more than Cha?

[Extra Anchovies]

Where are you getting the skill points to power Knowledge Devotion from? Without a skill-heavy build, it's not super useful. Not sure what else could go there, though.

[Amphetryon]

Where are you getting the skill points to power Knowledge Devotion from? Without a skill-heavy build, it's not super useful. Not sure what else could go there, though.Human with a 12 INT is probably ample. Also, as indicated above, the build NEEDS Knowledge Devotion to make K(Planes) a class skill, which is harder with the limited source books available, or else the whole thing falls apart.

[Extra Anchovies]

Human with a 12 INT is probably ample. Also, as indicated above, the build NEEDS Knowledge Devotion to make K(Planes) a class skill, which is harder with the limited source books available, or else the whole thing falls apart.

Ah yes, that makes sense. Hadn't realized that it was for acquiring a class skill.

[Val666]

Still e.e you guys think is alright?

[Val666]

It may seem the problem is not me or the players but the DM. Now im playing Cleric 20. Thanks everyone for the tips and sorry for losing your time

[Amphetryon]

It may seem the problem is not me or the players but the DM. Now im playing Cleric 20. Thanks everyone for the tips and sorry for losing your time

Care to share some details of why that changed?

[Blackhawk748]

Care to share some details of why that changed?


Im curious too, as i was lurking, and this seems like a huge change.

[Val666]

Well...as I was describing the build to him, that was core + completes only and stuff, he said: "You shouldn't be making builds. Play a core class and depending on the situation you MAY meet someone who trains you in a prestige. You could get stuck with Paladin forever or something (and sorcerers magic is something innate but still wtf...)": At first I was ok with this, then he added: "That Spellsword dip is bad, It will dishonour your Spellthief trainer. It has a poorly roleplay conection". I was like O___________o. So I decided to play Cleric 20. If you guys can suggest things for it I'll appreciate, trying to make some kind of warlord. Demn...

[Amphetryon]

Well...as I was describing the build to him, that was core + completes only and stuff, he said: "You shouldn't be making builds. Play a core class and depending on the situation you MAY meet someone who trains you in a prestige. You could get stuck with Paladin forever or something (and sorcerers magic is something innate but still wtf...)": At first I was ok with this, then he added: "That Spellsword dip is bad, It will dishonour your Spellthief trainer. It has a poorly roleplay conection". I was like O___________o. So I decided to play Cleric 20. If you guys can suggest things for it I'll appreciate, trying to make some kind of warlord. Demn...

I'd suggest asking how people in that DM's universe know what class another person is by looking at them, but that's probably antagonistic.

[Divide by Zero]

Is it possible that you could find a different DM/group? Because if that's an unbiased account of what happened, it just screams controlling DM.

[AvatarVecna]

Play a full caster 20 with decent optimization; don't overdo it, or you'll be attacked by the Fiat Hammer. Also, if it's not too much trouble, could you tell us what "broken build" the other player presented that got most books banned?

[Val666]

Play a full caster 20 with decent optimization; don't overdo it, or you'll be attacked by the Fiat Hammer. Also, if it's not too much trouble, could you tell us what "broken build" the other player presented that got most books banned?

It wasn't a broken build. It was just a build with many dips from many different sourcebooks. The DM got angry at this and said: Core + Completes.

Im playing Cleric 20. Trying to make a warlord or something. Any suggestions?

[AvatarVecna]

Low Optimization
-Human Cleric X
-Pick decent feats and spells

Medium Optimization
-Human Cleric X
-Knowledge Devotion and DMM Persist
-Pick Spells and feats that upgrade your turn undead and your knowledge skills.

High Optimization
-Human Fighter 2/Monk 1/Cleric X
-make a Zen Archer to start out. Work your way to Knowledge Devotion and DMM Persist.
-Pay a wizard to cast Planar Binding on your behalf to summon an Efreeti. Use SLA Wish abuse to get whatever items you want and Dark Chaos Shuffle all your useless archery feats from bonus feats into Extra Turning or something equally useful.

Note: this method not only requires the DM allow story-based multiclassing, but it will also require you to have the ability to dodge hurled books.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Well...as I was describing the build to him, that was core + completes only and stuff, he said: "You shouldn't be making builds. Play a core class and depending on the situation you MAY meet someone who trains you in a prestige. You could get stuck with Paladin forever or something (and sorcerers magic is something innate but still wtf...)": At first I was ok with this, then he added: "That Spellsword dip is bad, It will dishonour your Spellthief trainer. It has a poorly roleplay conection". I was like O___________o. So I decided to play Cleric 20. If you guys can suggest things for it I'll appreciate, trying to make some kind of warlord. Demn...

I have noticed that DMs and Players I meet in my area only have this kind of attitude when they are older players of previous editions. It's difficult to get them to accept a different point of view and they can be incredibly bull headed. I usually just choose not to waste energy arguing with them and I play without them. But then again, I know a lot of people in my area who play D&D and I have no trouble finding a game to participate in.

[Blackhawk748]

Well...as I was describing the build to him, that was core + completes only and stuff, he said: "You shouldn't be making builds. Play a core class and depending on the situation you MAY meet someone who trains you in a prestige. You could get stuck with Paladin forever or something (and sorcerers magic is something innate but still wtf...)": At first I was ok with this, then he added: "That Spellsword dip is bad, It will dishonour your Spellthief trainer. It has a poorly roleplay conection". I was like O___________o. So I decided to play Cleric 20. If you guys can suggest things for it I'll appreciate, trying to make some kind of warlord. Demn...

Honestly i once held an opinion similar to this, until i realized that you class doesnt matter, it is simply a convenient title describing what your kinda doing. For instance the Wiz/Fighter/SpellSword/Abjurant Champ, is as likely to call himself an Eldritch Knight as the guy who took all 10 levels of Eldritch Knight. Also, no PrC requires a member of the PrC to train you, unless specifically stated. As far as i know most of the PrCs dont even represent organizations. I mean a Fighter/Sorc makes perfect sense to go into Abjurant Champ, as its the logical extension of his class combo, now if you dip a level of Spellsword or Bladesinger or what have you, you are simply adding something to you character.

Now while its interesting to have a RP reason for each level, in reality there is no way i could do it, maybe hed be happier in PF?

[Val666]

Medium Optimization
-Human Cleric X
-Knowledge Devotion and DMM Persist
-Pick Spells and feats that upgrade your turn undead and your knowledge skills..

Sticking with that one e.e


I have noticed that DMs and Players I meet in my area only have this kind of attitude when they are older players of previous editions. It's difficult to get them to accept a different point of view and they can be incredibly bull headed. I usually just choose not to waste energy arguing with them and I play without them. But then again, I know a lot of people in my area who play D&D and I have no trouble finding a game to participate in.

Well...yeah...he plays since 1st or 2nd edition I think, he doesn't know psionics, tob, incarnium, tom, etc. But for story and roleplay he is the best DM I met so far