How does a Faerûnian wizard cast spells outside the weave?

[Melcar]

So... In FR the weave encompasses the whole of realmsspace, and thus any (almost) arcane spellcaster draws upon this weave, when weaving spells. If there is an area where the weave is non-existent (dead-magic zone) the wizard cant cast spells.

How does one explain how it is possible for a faerunian wizard to go to other planes where the weave does not exist and still cast spells like nothing has changed? I'm asking in terms of more of an ingame role-playing answer. I have thought about this for a long time, but never really wanted to go into the whole thing... in fear of too many inconsistencies or contradictions.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Inconsistent campaign setting is inconsistent. It's not as if it would be the first time.



Generally speaking, I treat the Weave as divinely imposed artifice. I.e. as if it is not required to cast spells but rather that it was imposeded by Mystryl to control magic - because otherwise, mortals with access to the higher than normal magic levels in Toril could do stuff that exceeded the powers of gods. Stuff like creating new landmasses, creating the Underdark, controlling the emotions of all dragons in the world, changing the climate over continents or even the world, making mountains float permanently or slay deities. And because gods couldn't have that, one or more of their number force the energies of magic through an elaborate weave that controls them - and the rest of the Weave drains energies from places it doesn't extend or its controller has blacklisted so they become dead magic. Other planes don't have the Weave but don't have excessive magical energies either.


Another similar imposition/divine artifice would be the Wall of the Faithless. Any souls in Toril not worshipping gods don't go in their aligned plane in the afterlife; the Wall draws them in, uses them as bricks and mortar for eternity until the soul rots away and is permanently destroyed. This includes people worshipping concepts or demons instead of gods... but also souls that died as children before learning to worship. And all so that mortals would be forced to worship gods.

[StoneCipher]

Inconsistent campaign setting is inconsistent. It's not as if it would be the first time.



Generally speaking, I treat the Weave as divinely imposed artifice. I.e. as if it is not required to cast spells but rather that it was imposeded by Mystryl to control magic - because otherwise, mortals with access to the higher than normal magic levels in Toril could do stuff that exceeded the powers of gods. Stuff like creating new landmasses, creating the Underdark, controlling the emotions of all dragons in the world, changing the climate over continents or even the world, making mountains float permanently or slay deities. And because gods couldn't have that, one or more of their number force the energies of magic through an elaborate weave that controls them - and the rest of the Weave drains energies from places it doesn't extend or its controller has blacklisted so they become dead magic. Other planes don't have the Weave but don't have excessive magical energies either.


Another similar imposition/divine artifice would be the Wall of the Faithless. Any souls in Toril not worshipping gods don't go in their aligned plane in the afterlife; the Wall draws them in, uses them as bricks and mortar for eternity until the soul rots away and is permanently destroyed. This includes people worshipping concepts or demons instead of gods... but also souls that died as children before learning to worship. And all so that mortals would be forced to worship gods.

Actually, Faerun does need the weave to be able to cast spells. During the Time of Troubles, when Ao got super pissed off cause someone stole his stuff and threw all of the gods out until he got it back. Since Mystra was cast out, the weave broke and was very inconsistent throughout the land. Within this, there were spots that the weave did not exist, and thus, magic was unusable.

[Werephilosopher]

I'm pretty sure afroakuma covered this issue in his Planar Questions thread. If I remember correctly, the Weave is simply the conduit that connects the inhabitants of Realmspace to magic. If a wizard or cleric or what have you from Realmspace goes to Greyspace, they no longer need the Weave, because the Weave is not necessary for magic to function in Greyspace. Similarly, a wizard or cleric etc. from Greyspace would be connected to the Weave as soon as they entered Realmspace.

[Psyren]

This is pretty easy to rationalize. Just say that whatever gestures, verbal components etc. that wizards use are universal. In FR those trigger the Weave. In Greyhawk they access whatever magical source exists there, and likewise for Eberron etc. But in the end it's the same gestures and sounds.

Imagine you're at a restaurant in a foreign country. You can't read the menu but it has pictures. When your waiter comes by you can't speak to him, but you can point at what you want, and he will go off to the kitchen to put the order in as if you had said the dish by name. No matter what country you're in or what language that menu is written in, the gesture of pointing at a picture on the menu will work. It's the same principle here. And whether that waiter has to go in the back and tell the chef what to do, or punch it into a computer system of some kind, or even go in the back and cook it himself, you will still get the thing you pointed at.

[Melcar]

This is pretty easy to rationalize. Just say that whatever gestures, verbal components etc. that wizards use are universal. In FR those trigger the Weave. In Greyhawk they access whatever magical source exists there, and likewise for Eberron etc. But in the end it's the same gestures and sounds.

Imagine you're at a restaurant in a foreign country. You can't read the menu but it has pictures. When your waiter comes by you can't speak to him, but you can point at what you want, and he will go off to the kitchen to put the order in as if you had said the dish by name. No matter what country you're in or what language that menu is written in, the gesture of pointing at a picture on the menu will work. It's the same principle here. And whether that waiter has to go in the back and tell the chef what to do, or punch it into a computer system of some kind, or even go in the back and cook it himself, you will still get the thing you pointed at.

Sure... that would work, but the way its written suggest that Faerunian wizard specifically must learn to tap into this weave based magic, thus suggesting that they have not learned to acces magic elsewhere... Another thing that springs to mind is, wheter or not level 10th spells would (as in should) be possible, since AFAIR only Mystra put a ban on level 10 spells.

[Psyren]

Sure... that would work, but the way its written suggest that Faerunian wizard specifically must learn to tap into this weave based magic, thus suggesting that they have not learned to acces magic elsewhere...

Right, but if "learn how to access the weave" actually means "learn how to perform a verbal and somatic component," then any mage who comes to FR can do it, and any mage who leaves FR to go somewhere else can apply their training without even thinking about it.

In short, we imagine that the Weave is an entirely passive participant in the act of spellcasting - which it is, really.



Another thing that springs to mind is, wheter or not level 10th spells would (as in should) be possible, since AFAIR only Mystra put a ban on level 10 spells.

The thing is - banned or not, Faerun was really the only setting that had any to begin with. They may not be pre-emptively "banned" in Eberron, for example - but if they just don't exist either, there's no practical difference.

[Asteron]

Right, but if "learn how to access the weave" actually means "learn how to perform a verbal and somatic component," then any mage who comes to FR can do it, and any mage who leaves FR to go somewhere else can apply their training without even thinking about it.

In short, we imagine that the Weave is an entirely passive participant in the act of spellcasting - which it is, really.

They made a big deal about pointing out that mages had to re-learn to cast spells after the spellplague... I get that a lot of that was trying to shoehorn the fluff into the different mechanics of 4e, but its part of the lore... Every single novel that deals with the spellplague mentions this. That's why Szass Tam won the civil war in Thay when he bargained his soul away to Bane in exchange for Bane showing him how to work the new magic.

[Psyren]

They made a big deal about pointing out that mages had to re-learn to cast spells after the spellplague... I get that a lot of that was trying to shoehorn the fluff into the different mechanics of 4e, but its part of the lore... Every single novel that deals with the spellplague mentions this. That's why Szass Tam won the civil war in Thay when he bargained his soul away to Bane in exchange for Bane showing him how to work the new magic.

4e never happened :smallwink:

Less facetiously, didn't similar, albeit less dramatic shifts happen in the other 4e settings?

[Alleran]

They made a big deal about pointing out that mages had to re-learn to cast spells after the spellplague...
They had to do that after Mystra reset the Weave following Netheril's fall, too. It took arcane spellcasters a couple of weeks to figure out what she'd changed in the "base code" of the Weave. Divine spellcasters had it much easier, IIRC, since the gods just adapted what they were doing.

Generally, the Weave in Realmspace seems to exist as a means for mortals to access raw magic without having their brain dribble out through their ears from the power involved. It's like a safety valve, faucet and pressure regulator all in one, so without it you can't access anything near as much, if you can access anything at all. With it, of course, you have magic.

It's the most widespread of the access systems in Realmspace, but it is by no means the only one. There's also the Shadow Weave, "Table Magic" and several others. Probably Incarnum as well, assuming it exists in FR. Happily, the Weave (and Shadow Weave) are deliberately set up to ensure that they work the same in Realmspace as they do outside it.

[Rubik]

They had to do that after Mystra reset the Weave following Netheril's fall, too. It took arcane spellcasters a couple of weeks to figure out what she'd changed in the "base code" of the Weave. Divine spellcasters had it much easier, IIRC, since the gods just adapted what they were doing.

Generally, the Weave in Realmspace seems to exist as a means for mortals to access raw magic without having their brain dribble out through their ears from the power involved. It's like a safety valve, faucet and pressure regulator all in one, so without it you can't access anything near as much, if you can access anything at all. With it, of course, you have magic.

It's the most widespread of the access systems in Realmspace, but it is by no means the only one. There's also the Shadow Weave, "Table Magic" and several others. Probably Incarnum as well, assuming it exists in FR. Happily, the Weave (and Shadow Weave) are deliberately set up to ensure that they work the same in Realmspace as they do outside it.Happily, psionicists can use their powers even without the Weave. Of course, I think they require access to it in order to affect anything outside of their own bodies, but the point stands.

[Coidzor]

They made a big deal about pointing out that mages had to re-learn to cast spells after the spellplague... I get that a lot of that was trying to shoehorn the fluff into the different mechanics of 4e, but its part of the lore... Every single novel that deals with the spellplague mentions this. That's why Szass Tam won the civil war in Thay when he bargained his soul away to Bane in exchange for Bane showing him how to work the new magic.

Not on this sub-forum. 4e is basically entirely irrelevant here.

[StoneCipher]

Not on this sub-forum. 4e is basically entirely irrelevant here.

It's relevant in the fact that the 4e timeline is built upon 3e. Unless it specifically states in lore that something was created, changed, or destroyed at that point going forward, it would be assumed that X thing has always "worked that way." This case being the weave. It was in tact in 3e and broken in 4e, so you can assume that a fully functional weave is the basis for Faerun's spellcasting and it cannot work properly or at all if the weave is broken.

This would lead to alternate measures being created.

So, one could say that the alternative to using the weave existed in potential but not in practice.

[Tvtyrant]

My guess is that magic is just weaker in some spheres and stronger in others. Go to Darksun and suddenly your magic has a consumptive field attached to it. In Faerun the weave keeps casters from melting their brains, because magic is so strong there.

The real question is what happens to Sorcerers who take a spelljammer into Krynnspace, since Krynn has only wizards.

[Psyren]

The real question is what happens to Sorcerers who take a spelljammer into Krynnspace, since Krynn has only wizards.

Actually, post-War of Souls, there are sorcerers in Krynn, and they work just like they do everywhere else. Dragonlance Campaign Setting 53:


Sorcerers are spellcasters who can channel arcane energy without drawing power from the moons of magic. By extending their awareness into their surroundings, sorcerers tap into the arcane energies that were used to create Krynn itself and focus those energies into magical spells. Their art is called "primal sorcery," in contrast to the highly structured practices of wizardry and High Wizardry.
...
Game Rule information: As described in the Player's Handbook.

Also, some kender can become sorcerers.

[Phelix-Mu]

It's relevant in the fact that the 4e timeline is built upon 3e. Unless it specifically states in lore that something was created, changed, or destroyed at that point going forward, it would be assumed that X thing has always "worked that way." This case being the weave. It was in tact in 3e and broken in 4e, so you can assume that a fully functional weave is the basis for Faerun's spellcasting and it cannot work properly or at all if the weave is broken.


This seems totally erroneous. My understanding is that 4e was basically 100% non-retrocompatible. You either accept it's new mechanics and fluff together and toss the old stuff, or stick with the old stuff (and be relevant to this forum). There was no attempt to make any of the changes to fluff integrate with 3.5, cause there was no 3.5 by the time 4e was out.

So Spellplague may have happened in 3.5, but that's a houserule, since it was published as part of 4e. Again, I could be mistaken. To me, 4e never happened, so I am a little underinformed on the specifics of what was published where and when.

[Psyren]

It's relevant in the fact that the 4e timeline is built upon 3e. Unless it specifically states in lore that something was created, changed, or destroyed at that point going forward, it would be assumed that X thing has always "worked that way." This case being the weave. It was in tact in 3e and broken in 4e, so you can assume that a fully functional weave is the basis for Faerun's spellcasting and it cannot work properly or at all if the weave is broken.

This would lead to alternate measures being created.

So, one could say that the alternative to using the weave existed in potential but not in practice.

Even if 4e events were somehow relevant to this forum, they're not relevant to the question being asked here. Pre-spellplague, the casting methodology was demonstrably the same across planes. You could argue that FR's new way of doing things is incompatible with everywhere else, but not that it was incompatible before.

[Coidzor]

And, really, why create extra work that doesn't add anything to the game?

[Brookshw]

How does one explain how it is possible for a faerunian wizard to go to other planes where the weave does not exist and still cast spells like nothing has changed? I'm asking in terms of more of an ingame role-playing answer. I have thought about this for a long time, but never really wanted to go into the whole thing... in fear of too many inconsistencies or contradictions.


For that matter, spellcasters using the Weave on Toril often get a few surprises when they try to use (or regain) spells while on other planes. Not everything works the same - and results can also vary over time and location, and from individual to individual. Travel away from home, as they say, is always an adventure

Source: May 4, 2004, So saith Ed column on Candlekeep (http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/sse/sse_050607-04.htm).

So yeah, "still cast spells like nothing has changed" seems to go out the window per Ed (who supposedly controls creation rights per contract or something). Sounds to me like things should definitely change.

[Psyren]

"Not everything works the same" implies that most things do. I would imagine that, for the most part, the spells that don't are Faerun-specific, e.g. Elminster's Evasion.

[Morty]

It doesn't strike me as a terribly meaningful question. Are there any canon occurrences of spell-casters from Faerun travelling to other worlds?

[Psyren]

It doesn't strike me as a terribly meaningful question. Are there any canon occurrences of spell-casters from Faerun travelling to other worlds?

Elminster is supposedly chummy with Mordenkainen from Greyhawk and Dalamar from Dragonlance. That may have been a joke article though, because they meet on Earth IIRC and swap stories.

[Andion Isurand]

-4366 DR
Imaskari artificers open twin gates to another world and magically abduct thousands of humans to serve as slaves. The artificers then erect a planar barrier to prevent contact between the slaves and their deities. Over time, the slaves intermarry with the Imaskari, and their descendants become a race in their own right that is latter called the Mulan.

__________________________________

After some time, Ao heard the slaves' prayers and summoned the god Ptah, an ancient deity of Wildspace whose faith had originated in the homeworld of the Mulan. At the request of Ao, Ptah returned to his homeworld and assembled the two relevant pantheons of that sphere. He told them what had happened to their followers and of their prayers for salvation. Ao had offered to extend their influence to the sphere of Abeir-Toril.

The only way to gain access to the sphere of Realmspace was to send avatars through Wildspace under the guidance of Ptah. Ptah told them that their avatars had to be as powerful as possible to be able to battle the Imaskari wizards. Creating such avatars, known as manifestations, required them to sacrifice much of their divine power. Both Ra, head of the deities of the Mulhorandi pantheon, as well as Enlil, the leader of the Untheric pantheon, agreed to Ao's offer. Many, but not all of their fellow deities agreed upon this as well. Ptah led the gods as they rode in two different galleys. The followers of Re (as Ra's manifestation was called) rode on the galley named Matet (at night it changed into a barge called Semktet). The manifestations of Enlin and his children rode in the Galley of Gods.

On their journey through Wildspace Ptah guided them with the Beacon of Light, a 1-foot-square golden cube with silver cylinders extending from the top at the four corners. Each face of the cube is engraved with an ancient hieroglyphic rune of unknown origin or meaning.

The manifestations landed on the highest peaks in a range of mountains on the northeastern edge of the Imaskar Empire known today as the Teyla Shan, or Godswatch Mountains. There they split into more divine forms, such as mortal forms of avatars, known as incarnations. These descended into the fertile plain below amongst their long-lost people. The most talented they made into priests; the truly faithful were transformed into divine minions.

Before the Imaskari lords realized what was happening, their mulan slaves rose in rebellion. Many of the incarnations and divine minions were destroyed in the battles with the Imaskari artificers, and the rebellion began to falter. Then the manifestations joined the fray. Coming down from the mountains along a path that would become known as the Road of the Gods, they unleashed their divine fury upon the wizards.

By -2488 DR, the Imaskar Empire was tottering, its cities engulfed in flames. The current Lord Artificer, Yuvaraj, fell in battle with Horus in Inupras. The rest of its armies had been defeated by the incarnate gods of the rebellious Mulhorandi and Untheric slaves. Many of the greatest wizard-lords of the realm battled to the last. When the ancient wizard rulers were defeated by the manifestations who would later become the god-kings of Mulhorand and Unther, the manifestations summoned spirits of retribution that destroyed all that had not been slain in the war. When the god-kings fled Raurin, these spirits took the land as their own domain, with each pack stirring from slumber every century to wreak havoc on all that oppose them.

__________________________________

-1076 DR to -1069 DR
The Orcgate opens in the southern portion of the Plateau of Thay. Renegade Mulhorandi wizards employ Imaskari portal magic to open planar gates to an orc world. Hundreds of thousands of orcs inundate the northern territories of both Mulhorand and Unther. Mulhorand hires Nar, Raumathari, Rashemi, and Sossrim mercenaries to fight the orc invaders.
Yuireshanyaar is pressed hard by the invading orcs.
Rashemen is overrun by the invading orcs.

__________________________________

The Orcgate Wars, which began in -1076 DR, were originally a magical experiment that quickly escalated into a war of devastating proportions.

In -1081 DR, the theurgist adept Thayd, last apprentice of the Imaskari wizards, opened a fateful portal to a brutal world dominated by empires of fanatically religious orcs. After inciting the wizards of Mulhorand and Unther into rebellion, he was executed, leaving no one in Faerûn with knowledge of the existence of the portal. For five years, the portal remained dormant until the orcs began pouring through, eventually laying siege to both Mulhorand and Unther for six years.

More fanatical than those of the north, these invading gray orcs and their clerics had developed amazingly powerful and deadly spells; the most potent of magics being their ability to directly call down avatars of their deities. Avatars of the gods of Mulhorand and Unther also dwelt on Faerûn, but they had been weakened after the oppression under the Imaskari empire, being ill-prepared to defend against the orc hordes. Nevertheless, the avatars of these two clashing pantheons fought, resulting in the Battle of the Gods, a titanic clash of power that deeply scarred the land. The god Re was slain by Gruumsh with several more powers of the Untheric pantheon following, having been killed by the avatars of the orc gods. Despite the victory over their enemies, the orc armies and their deities were heavily weakened, eventually being routed by the remnants of the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons after a rally in -1069 DR.

So complete was the destruction of the orc horde that the gray orcs in the region have never been able to fully recover. Over the next several hundred years, they were fragmented time and time again into countless smaller tribes scattered throughout Thay, the Moonsea and neighboring regions. Constant infighting among their own kind has kept the gray orcs from returning to the power they once previously wielded.

__________________________________

If the Mulan homeworld and the Gray Orc homeworld lie outside realmspace, then apparently magic from realmspace can work elsewhere, and magic from outside realmspace, can be brought into it.

[Phelix-Mu]

Elminster is supposedly chummy with Mordenkainen from Greyhawk and Dalamar from Dragonlance. That may have been a joke article though, because they meet on Earth IIRC and swap stories.

Really? I don't remember the earth bit. But it's a pretty frequently mentioned article. I don't think it was supposed to be a joke. I believe the premise was they get together and trade spells. I thought there was a fourth wizard, as well. Huh.

If anyone knows the issue of that famous article, I'd be interested to know.

[Brookshw]

"Not everything works the same" implies that most things do. I would imagine that, for the most part, the spells that don't are Faerun-specific, e.g. Elminster's Evasion.

Eh, he didn't specify to I'm assuming its a bit broader than faerun specific. Maybe treat it as wild magic on other planes. Anyway, make of his words what you will.


Elminster is supposedly chummy with Mordenkainen from Greyhawk and Dalamar from Dragonlance. That may have been a joke article though, because they meet on Earth IIRC and swap stories.

I don't recall if if it was earth but that sounds right. Seem to recall Elminster at least stopped in (snrk) to tell Ed about the realms.

[Psyren]

Really? I don't remember the earth bit. But it's a pretty frequently mentioned article. I don't think it was supposed to be a joke. I believe the premise was they get together and trade spells. I thought there was a fourth wizard, as well. Huh.

If anyone knows the issue of that famous article, I'd be interested to know.

Some issue names are mentioned here:

http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Wizards_Three

[Asteron]

Okay, 4e fluff out...

I'll bring up a series of 3.5 modules that tie the casting of magic on Toril to the Weave: Cormyr: the Tearing of the Weave, Shadowdale: the Scouring of the Land, and Annourach: the Empire of Shade. The grand plot is to unravel the Weave so that only Shadow-Weave casters could cast. In Annourach, the whole desert is a dead Weave zone. Not dead magic, just dead Weave. Psionics and shadow weave users are unaffected. That means that the Weave is an intrinsic part of casting spells on Toril.

[Psyren]

That means that the Weave is an intrinsic part of casting spells on Toril.

That isn't the issue of contention here though. The question is how do you access the Weave.

In other words, say I am a Greyhawk wizard who ends up jumping settings somehow. If the exact same handwave and gibberish that I use on Greyhawk work on Eberron and trigger the Weave to do something on Toril, will I even notice the difference? That is the real question.

[Scots Dragon]

Really? I don't remember the earth bit. But it's a pretty frequently mentioned article. I don't think it was supposed to be a joke. I believe the premise was they get together and trade spells. I thought there was a fourth wizard, as well. Huh.

The fourth wizard was Mordenkainen's apprentice Rautheene, created by Ed Greenwood to be a replacement for Dalamar after the Dragonlance setting was 'cut off' from planar travel during some setting-specific events.

[Andion Isurand]

That isn't the issue of contention here though. The question is how do you access the Weave.

In other words, say I am a Greyhawk wizard who ends up jumping settings somehow. If the exact same handwave and gibberish that I use on Greyhawk work on Eberron and trigger the Weave to do something on Toril, will I even notice the difference? That is the real question.

It didn't slow down the Imaskari from abducting the Mulan from their homeworld, nor did it keep the gray orcs from using their spells once they got to Toril.

[Psyren]

It didn't slow down the Imaskari from abducting the Mulan from their homeworld, nor did it keep the gray orcs from using their spells once they got to Toril.

Exactly - those other interlopers seemed to adapt to the "Weave" just fine without learning an all new magic system. Or at the very least, it was similar enough that they adapted pretty quickly.

[Brookshw]

Exactly - those other interlopers seemed to adapt to the "Weave" just fine without learning an all new magic system. Or at the very least, it was similar enough that they adapted pretty quickly.

Its been a while since I've touched the realm so I'm not sure, did we ever find out what world and where it was? They were added in 3e right?

[Melcar]

Exactly - those other interlopers seemed to adapt to the "Weave" just fine without learning an all new magic system. Or at the very least, it was similar enough that they adapted pretty quickly.

Indeed, but some spells, specifically a level 10 spell in Cormathyr, Empire of elves has a spell that creates a bobble of a mythal... the same could likely happen when origination from within an area where the weave is present.

What strikes me as odd, is that in a dead magic zone weave based magic just stops working, just like in an antimagic zone, but specifically only weave based magic. A place without the weave would in my logic qualify as a dead-magic zone. No weave no magic. Indeed items created with weave based enchantment would as I see it stop working when leaving the weave.

It might be, that because magic flows in realmspace like electricity in high voltage cables, and thus outlets like the weave is needed. Other places might already have these "outlets" installed or a lover voltage might run through their cables there. But that does not explain how easy it is to jump, not only prime material planes, but outer or inner planes with no interference what so ever.

I personally hold Ed Greenwood in high regard and deem his statements as canon, not only because he it the creator of Forgotten Realms, but also because that's what his WotC contract dictates (according to the ones at candlekeep), and his explanation helps only a small bit.

I would like to ask a question regarding the location of the inner and outer planes within the FR cosmology the great tree... are they located within realmspace and thus encompassed by the weave, or does a crystal sphere only hold the material plane?

[malonkey1]

EDIT: Partially Ninja'd!

My understanding of the Weave was that it contains all the ambient magic in the Realmspace that would normally float free in other settings, kept in that tightly bound structure so Mystra can more easily manipulate and regulate it. Additionally, it acts as the "wires" through which magic has to travel to work, making magic in Realmspace more like electricity than radio in how it travels.

Examples: A wizard casts magic missile, a Psion manifests reduction on himself, and a Psion manifests energy ray.

1a) The Wizard in Realmspace casts magic missile. In performing the actions required to do so, he draws in energy to cast the spell from the Weave, and then releases the energy, which is carried by the weave to its target. Without the weave, the spell fails because the wizard can't draw the energy to begin with.
1b) The Wizard out of Realmspace casts magic missile. Casting the spell draws in ambient energy (careful with this in Athas!), and it simply travels through space to its target.

2a) The Psion in Realmspace manifests reduction on himself. He doesn't need to draw energy from the weave to manifest it, because psionics runs off an internal power store. The power is targeted in itself, so the weave has no need to carry it. Self-targeted powers don't need the Weave to draw in energy, or to carry the effect.
2b) The power functions identically. How boring.

3a) The Psion later decides to manifest energy ray. While he doesn't need to tap into the weave to manifest the power, he still needs the conductive properties of the Weave to carry the energy to his target (regardless of hit or miss). Without the Weave, the energy has nowhere through which it can travel to its target, thus failing.
3a) The Psion simply manifests the power, using his own energy, which moves like a ray would be expected, without concern for "conductivity".

Dead magic zones are places where no Weave filaments exist (let's just call the threads of the Weave "filaments", alright?), and without those filaments, there's no way to conduct magic to a wizard, or from a psion, giving us the behavior we see here.

[Psyren]

Indeed, but some spells, specifically a level 10 spell in Cormathyr, Empire of elves has a spell that creates a bobble of a mythal... the same could likely happen when origination from within an area where the weave is present.

Not sure what this has to do with what I said :smallconfused:

To repeat - there are canonical folks who came from outside FR into Faerun and immediately picked up the magic with no difficulties. The logical assumption is that the casting methods are not very different.



I would like to ask a question regarding the location of the inner and outer planes within the FR cosmology the great tree... are they located within realmspace and thus encompassed by the weave, or does a crystal sphere only hold the material plane?

That's an afroakuma question, but keep in mind they don't really like the tree over there so you might get run out of town on horseback.

[Melcar]

Not sure what this has to do with what I said :smallconfused:

To repeat - there are canonical folks who came from outside FR into Faerun and immediately picked up the magic with no difficulties. The logical assumption is that the casting methods are not very different.



That's an afroakuma question, but keep in mind they don't really like the tree over there so you might get run out of town on horseback.

What I meant was, that the pulling of slaves, by the Imaskar could work because as long as the spell originated within an area with weave, it would extend indefinitely and thus support a spell through a gate onto a plane where no weave excised.

I do think it is very strange that outsiders immediately can utilize the weave... and vice versa. That the whole point of this thread... to find out how and why... and if that should elude us, then maybe theorize on how it is going on. Because there is no doubt that magic flows freely and easy across planes, and crystal spheres. To me it would make a lot of sense that a faerunian wizard would need training before he/her could cast spells outside the weave, just like the time when the weave have been gone... Something down the line of no spellcasting to begin with, then wildmagic effects and then finally magic as normal...

Maybe magic vibrates with a certain frequencies across the multivers... and just like humans can hear within a certain frequencies so too can magic be "heard" of felt and thus used... Within realmspace because of what ever, magic might vibrate on a higher more volatile frequency thus needing the weave as dampener... to get magi c within the accessible range.
Another thing could be, that realmspace might be the only place (or one of the very few) where magic flows in raw form. Every other plane simply has magic running in nice safe form, thus the weave would be redundant here. If this be the case... I would argue that Spellfire wielders would be unable to access spellfire outside realmspace... or at least only places where raw magic was afoot.

[Psyren]

What I meant was, that the pulling of slaves, by the Imaskar could work because as long as the spell originated within an area with weave, it would extend indefinitely and thus support a spell through a gate onto a plane where no weave excised.

Yeah but that's still not what I was saying. That the Weave could extend through a Hole to Somewhere Else is a reasonable assumption to make.


I do think it is very strange that outsiders immediately can utilize the weave... and vice versa. That the whole point of this thread... to find out how and why... and if that should elude us, then maybe theorize on how it is going on.

Yep - I gave you such a theory in my first post :smalltongue: We can keep coming up with as many as we want of course, but I haven't seen any evidence yet that does not fit with mine.

[jedipotter]

I would like to ask a question regarding the location of the inner and outer planes within the FR cosmology the great tree... are they located within realmspace and thus encompassed by the weave, or does a crystal sphere only hold the material plane?

The weave covers all the planes in 3E. Dweomerheart is made of pure magic of The Weave. That is why it was destroyed as soon as Mystra ''died''.

[Melcar]

Yeah but that's still not what I was saying. That the Weave could extend through a Hole to Somewhere Else is a reasonable assumption to make.



Yep - I gave you such a theory in my first post :smalltongue: We can keep coming up with as many as we want of course, but I haven't seen any evidence yet that does not fit with mine.

Well... Personally I think is seem just a little bit to easy. I did find this though, some parts have already been disclosed.


Rich Baker is THE expert on the Shadow Weave, but I certainly agree with him that it extends only as far as the Weave itself does: that is, throughout the Prime Material Plane of Toril (or the crystal sphere of Realmspace, if you prefer), NOT onto other planes. The best way to think of the Shadow Weave is this: it's the echo, or literally the shadow, of the Weave itself, and therefore can't exist where the Weave doesn't - and the Weave, in turn, is our mortal name for the flows of natural energy we call "magic" because we can harness it (spells, spell-like powers, psionics, et al being the ways in which we accomplish that harnessing), that permeate Toril and are an integral part of all life in, on, and in the atmosphere of Toril. Such natural flows, and magic, exist on other planes, and permit travel and energy flows from plane to plane, but only on Toril are the flows known as the Weave, administered by Mystra, and possess a 'Shadow Weave.' Elsewhere, there may or may not be similar 'dark counterparts' to the forces spellcasters can harness as magic, but those counterparts, if they exist, aren't linked to the Shadow Weave, part of the Shadow Weave, or governable in precisely the same way as the Shadow Weave (i.e. a character who can harness the Shadow Weave on Toril can't necessarily reliably use any similar 'dark weave' on another plane. For that matter, spellcasters using the Weave on Toril often get a few surprises when they try to use (or regain) spells while on other planes. Not everything works the same - and results can also vary over time and location, and from individual to individual. Travel away from home, as they say, is always an adventure. :}

As mentioned this if Ed's reply from 2004.

My guess is thus, that Mystra changed the original raw flow, into a workable size. Other places have the same by other or no names. The fact that they are so allike that spellcasters so easy can make the change is still wierd I think. Especially when thinking of magic items forged within the weave.

[Psyren]

Well... Personally I think is seem just a little bit to easy.

Occam's Razor - often the simplest answer is the right one.

But I understand, you want something that provokes a little more discussion. That's certainly reasonable. I'll leave you to it.

[Rubik]

As mentioned this if Ed's reply from 2004.This quote leads me to believe that a caster or manifester from another reality (Greyhawk or Athas or even the outer planes around Toril) could enter the Realms and ignore the Weave's presence (or lack thereof), without any problems.

Which makes extraplanar casters considerably more dangerous than they otherwise might be.

It also makes Torillian adventurers useless out in the planes, since their spellcasting and magic items simply don't work.

[Brookshw]

Occam's Razor - often the simplest answer is the right one.

But I understand, you want something that provokes a little more discussion. That's certainly reasonable. I'll leave you to it.

To be fair another simple explanation would me the mulan origination from another planet in realm space, where they'd already have magic in synch with the weave (since ed identified realm space is covered by the weave).

[Andion Isurand]

To be fair another simple explanation would me the mulan origination from another planet in realm space, where they'd already have magic in synch with the weave (since ed identified realm space is covered by the weave).

Except that Ptah had to lead avatars of the Mulan's deities from their homeworld, through Wildspace to get to the sphere of Realmspace.

[Alleran]

I would like to ask a question regarding the location of the inner and outer planes within the FR cosmology the great tree... are they located within realmspace and thus encompassed by the weave, or does a crystal sphere only hold the material plane?
The Weave is Mystra and Mystra is the Weave. You can't have one without the other. Robbing it of its guiding intelligence (i.e. Mystra, when she fell) during the Time of Troubles made it go wild. Destroying it/her removes magic (see: Netheril's fall) and forces you to find or create an entirely new system if you want to use magic.

By the same token, ignoring the Great Tree, the Weave only exists in Realmspace and in her realm of Dweomerheart, and it only exists in the latter because the latter is her divine realm. Everywhere else is fine, allowing that there will be some differences and adjustments (Athas to Oerth, Realmspace to Krynnspace, Aebrynis to Athas, and so on; Oerth and Realmspace are pretty close, so I'd imagine there would be fewer issues hopping back and forth between those than with others). Once you enter Realmspace from another world you'd presumably start accessing the Weave by default or after a short adaption period (since it's the "closest" to the generally accepted magic system of elsewhere, perhaps), bringing you under Mystra's purview while you're within it.

[Melcar]

Occam's Razor - often the simplest answer is the right one.

But I understand, you want something that provokes a little more discussion. That's certainly reasonable. I'll leave you to it.


Not provokes, but simply explains is in some way where the answer is not just matter of convinience. Your guess is ofc as good as mine, but I was hoping for some long, logical and thorough explanation from some official source.


This quote leads me to believe that a caster or manifester from another reality (Greyhawk or Athas or even the outer planes around Toril) could enter the Realms and ignore the Weave's presence (or lack thereof), without any problems.

Which makes extraplanar casters considerably more dangerous than they otherwise might be.

It also makes Torillian adventurers useless out in the planes, since their spellcasting and magic items simply don't work.

Well this is sort of my thought as well.. If a faerunian wizard can function, no problem without the weave, on other planes and in other worlds then why does everything stop working when entering a dead-magic zone. How come magic items simply works where no weave is present? It seems just a little odd, that by happy coincidence all places have basically the same magical signature, thus making everything work despite being on different world... Even Earth.

Greenwood says that the weave is what we mortals call the ebb and flow of natural/magical energies... Other places has this as well he says, but then that would mean that Realmspace is a particular place, where such a magical flow, does not naturally exist and for that reason Mystra has to put up a conductor... so inherently realmspace lack that flow of energies. By that thought we can say that realmspace is essential one big dead-magic zone.

In terms of magic items... well if you imagine a ring of protection enchanted within the weave as being a radio, set on the right frequency, you can change that frequency to match the shadow weave. Then how does that explain how they just automatically work outside the weave?

[Brookshw]

Except that Ptah had to lead avatars of the Mulan's deities from their homeworld, through Wildspace to get to the sphere of Realmspace.

Good evidence, thanks for letting me know. Would you mind letting me know the sourcing for this? I haven't paid much attention to the realms in a while and the only place I've been able to find a wildspace reference is spelljammer.org.

[afroakuma]

I am summoned.

I actually took this question a while back, so I remember the details on it.

The answer depends on what's going on in your campaign world; if you're using the Great Tree Cosmology, then Mystra's Weave is actually everywhere, on all of those planes. A dead-magic zone in the Barrens of Doom and Despair is treated just like one in the middle of Suzail. If you somehow get away from Toril and its linked cosmology, it's quite likely your magic will fail - an alternate Prime, for instance, will have no Weave and no answers for you.

In the great Wheel cosmology, magic is a natural, if unscientific, force. While it is shaped, regulated and given functional rules by the local gods of magic, it's available to tap pretty much anywhere. Now, as a natural force it is transformed by local conditions - some spells cannot be cast on the Abyss, say, or have a much weaker effect on the Elemental Plane of Water. Some will have an altogether different effect. Some will be more powerful.

When traveling from Prime world to Prime world in this cosmology, you are under the aegis of the gods of magic, who have negotiations with one another regarding practitioners of arcane magic just as other gods have tacit compacts for priests. If a Faerunian wizard travels to Oerth, Boccob will honor his arrangement with Mystra and ensure they have spell coverage. An Oeridian wizard traveling to Krynn would benefit from Boccob's arrangement with Solinari, Lunitari and Nuitari. Visiting casters have to play by the rules of the local gods of magic, so opening planar gates on Krynn would be frowned upon, for example, and the gods of magic would probably impede the spell.

But what if you're on some truly obscure world? Or one where there is no god of magic? Simple - your god can detect you in the new sphere you've entered, and all gods have incentive to trace followers who enter new spheres (since they'd like to set up worship there if they can). Whether or not you worship your god of magic, if you are a spellcaster from their world, you are within their jurisdiction to look in on. If the new sphere has an unknown god of magic, that god will make contact with yours very quickly to mark out territory and an arrangement will be struck. If the new sphere has no god of magic, then your own can accommodate you as they're not technically trespassing on anyone else's game. Mystra couldn't spread the Weave into the new world, but she could keep a thread tied to you, so to speak.

Right right right, what about if you have no god of magic on your world, and you travel to another world with no god of magic? Then what do you care, you're not going to notice any difference. It's a universal force.

Phew, think that covers all of it.

[Melcar]

I am summoned.

I actually took this question a while back, so I remember the details on it.

The answer depends on what's going on in your campaign world; if you're using the Great Tree Cosmology, then Mystra's Weave is actually everywhere, on all of those planes. A dead-magic zone in the Barrens of Doom and Despair is treated just like one in the middle of Suzail. If you somehow get away from Toril and its linked cosmology, it's quite likely your magic will fail - an alternate Prime, for instance, will have no Weave and no answers for you.

In the great Wheel cosmology, magic is a natural, if unscientific, force. While it is shaped, regulated and given functional rules by the local gods of magic, it's available to tap pretty much anywhere. Now, as a natural force it is transformed by local conditions - some spells cannot be cast on the Abyss, say, or have a much weaker effect on the Elemental Plane of Water. Some will have an altogether different effect. Some will be more powerful.

When traveling from Prime world to Prime world in this cosmology, you are under the aegis of the gods of magic, who have negotiations with one another regarding practitioners of arcane magic just as other gods have tacit compacts for priests. If a Faerunian wizard travels to Oerth, Boccob will honor his arrangement with Mystra and ensure they have spell coverage. An Oeridian wizard traveling to Krynn would benefit from Boccob's arrangement with Solinari, Lunitari and Nuitari. Visiting casters have to play by the rules of the local gods of magic, so opening planar gates on Krynn would be frowned upon, for example, and the gods of magic would probably impede the spell.

But what if you're on some truly obscure world? Or one where there is no god of magic? Simple - your god can detect you in the new sphere you've entered, and all gods have incentive to trace followers who enter new spheres (since they'd like to set up worship there if they can). Whether or not you worship your god of magic, if you are a spellcaster from their world, you are within their jurisdiction to look in on. If the new sphere has an unknown god of magic, that god will make contact with yours very quickly to mark out territory and an arrangement will be struck. If the new sphere has no god of magic, then your own can accommodate you as they're not technically trespassing on anyone else's game. Mystra couldn't spread the Weave into the new world, but she could keep a thread tied to you, so to speak.

Right right right, what about if you have no god of magic on your world, and you travel to another world with no god of magic? Then what do you care, you're not going to notice any difference. It's a universal force.

Phew, think that covers all of it.

First of all thank you for your reply...

I do however still have some questions... yes I'm anoying i know.

1) You're saying that within the great tree cosmology the weave encompasses all planes.. I have looked for thins kind of information, but could find it nowehere. I also contradicts Ed's reply, which I posted earlier, which is canon by definition. Could this because he speaks of the cosmology as being the great wheel?

2) You say that when getting away from the Torillian cosmology would mean a loss of spellcasting abilities, would that mean, that there are more than one cosmology? I know there are multiple crystal spheres, but it was my understanding that there was only 1 of each plane. 1 elemetal plane of fire etc. Could one indeed travel into another cosmology?

3) If I wanted to travel to Sigil, when utilizing the great tree cosmology, would that not mean leaving the weave and thus loosing magical capabilities?

[afroakuma]

1) You're saying that within the great tree cosmology the weave encompasses all planes.. I have looked for thins kind of information, but could find it nowehere. I also contradicts Ed's reply, which I posted earlier, which is canon by definition. Could this because he speaks of the cosmology as being the great wheel?

Ed Greenwood's books used the Great Wheel and don't appear to reference the Great Tree. It was a decision by the 3E team to basically split off all the worlds, since they weren't supporting all those campaign settings anymore. Note how it's not very well developed - it's because it's really just the divine realms of the Faerunian powers from the Great Wheel cosmology, plus the planes they felt they needed to fill things out (see: the Abyss, the Nine Hells.) In the Great Tree cosmology, Toril is the only world (well, Toril and its fellow planets and celestial bodies, but still).


2) You say that when getting away from the Torillian cosmology would mean a loss of spellcasting abilities, would that mean, that there are more than one cosmology?

Yes. By traveling deep into the Plane of Shadow, you can pass beyond the shadows of the world and into the deeper darkness, a reflection desert where true terror holds sway. If you can get through the depths of Shadow, you can find the shadow realm that parallels another cosmology, another world, and step out there.


3) If I wanted to travel to Sigil, when utilizing the great tree cosmology

I don't believe Sigil exists in the Great Tree cosmology. I could be mistaken, but it's not on the chart. If it doesn't exist in the cosmology, then it's not a place you can be, and you can't lose magic for going there (because there's no "there" to go to.) If it does exist in the cosmology and is merely not on my chart, then it is part of the unified Great Tree cosmology and the Weave reaches it.

[Melcar]

Ed Greenwood's books used the Great Wheel and don't appear to reference the Great Tree. It was a decision by the 3E team to basically split off all the worlds, since they weren't supporting all those campaign settings anymore. Note how it's not very well developed - it's because it's really just the divine realms of the Faerunian powers from the Great Wheel cosmology, plus the planes they felt they needed to fill things out (see: the Abyss, the Nine Hells.) In the Great Tree cosmology, Toril is the only world (well, Toril and its fellow planets and celestial bodies, but still).



Yes. By traveling deep into the Plane of Shadow, you can pass beyond the shadows of the world and into the deeper darkness, a reflection desert where true terror holds sway. If you can get through the depths of Shadow, you can find the shadow realm that parallels another cosmology, another world, and step out there.



I don't believe Sigil exists in the Great Tree cosmology. I could be mistaken, but it's not on the chart. If it doesn't exist in the cosmology, then it's not a place you can be, and you can't lose magic for going there (because there's no "there" to go to.) If it does exist in the cosmology and is merely not on my chart, then it is part of the unified Great Tree cosmology and the Weave reaches it.

Ok... very informative. Im still unsure of where you have gotten that the weave permiates the entirety of the cosmology, but I have no reason to dispute this. Im simply just curious.

Correct me if I'm wrong but as I understand it, the cosmologies, either the great wheel or great tree, are supposed to a single cosmology. Either the one or the other... not both... right? I think what really got me confused was trying to understand a mix of the two.

Im still confused about the number of material planes. Could you disclose this? It would seem that there is only one prime material plane, the crystal spheres floating in the plongiston, and that different worlds like Sigil, Oerth, Krynn and Earth are all part of this material plane. Small universes within the multivers.

In the great wheel they all have their own natural flow of magic, which is a unified one and in the great tree, the weave reaches out to these also?


Again I apologize for stupid questions.

[Andion Isurand]

Good evidence, thanks for letting me know. Would you mind letting me know the sourcing for this? I haven't paid much attention to the realms in a while and the only place I've been able to find a wildspace reference is spelljammer.org.

I don't have all the books in which these events were first published, so I took the summary of them from here.

http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/imaskar.htm
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Imaskar

[Zilzmaer]

Ok... very informative. Im still unsure of where you have gotten that the weave permiates the entirety of the cosmology, but I have no reason to dispute this. Im simply just curious.


IIRC, in the back story for Shar and Selune, they were the original beings, and were around before the planes. Hence, the Weave and Shadow Weave were around before the planes. The reason Mystra exists is Selune ripped the Weave out of herself to attack Shar when they disagreed about making the planes. But my source for that is reading Deities and Demigods a few years ago, so I could easily be wrong.


Correct me if I'm wrong but as I understand it, the cosmologies, either the great wheel or great tree, are supposed to a single cosmology. Either the one or the other... not both... right? I think what really got me confused was trying to understand a mix of the two.

Im still confused about the number of material planes. Could you disclose this? It would seem that there is only one prime material plane, the crystal spheres floating in the plongiston, and that different worlds like Sigil, Oerth, Krynn and Earth are all part of this material plane. Small universes within the multivers.


Within a given cosmology, there are potentially infinite material planes, but only one prime material plane. Different primes have different cosmologies.

[Andion Isurand]

Not provokes, but simply explains is in some way where the answer is not just matter of convinience. Your guess is ofc as good as mine, but I was hoping for some long, logical and thorough explanation from some official source.

Well this is sort of my thought as well.. If a faerunian wizard can function, no problem without the weave, on other planes and in other worlds then why does everything stop working when entering a dead-magic zone. How come magic items simply works where no weave is present? It seems just a little odd, that by happy coincidence all places have basically the same magical signature, thus making everything work despite being on different world... Even Earth.

Greenwood says that the weave is what we mortals call the ebb and flow of natural/magical energies... Other places has this as well he says, but then that would mean that Realmspace is a particular place, where such a magical flow, does not naturally exist and for that reason Mystra has to put up a conductor... so inherently realmspace lack that flow of energies. By that thought we can say that realmspace is essential one big dead-magic zone.

In terms of magic items... well if you imagine a ring of protection enchanted within the weave as being a radio, set on the right frequency, you can change that frequency to match the shadow weave. Then how does that explain how they just automatically work outside the weave?

Well, if a medium for magic exists in almost every D&D setting... just because the medium is defined in realmspace as "the weave and shadow weave" doesn't mean there isn't some functionally equivalent medium in other settings for which there might be different definitions and conditions. A dead-magic zone is just an area where there is a gap in the medium, and it could be that other settings could have similar gaps in their own mediums.... (an antimagic field in my mind, is like a field of destructive interference that flattens other existing "wavelengths" of magic)

Given that the imaskari were able to open portals to another world outside realmspace whereupon they were able to "magically abduct" thousands of slaves... I don't think the weave would have just temporarily grown and extended itself into another sphere where there may or may not be other deities already at work.

As far as having the same "magical signature" from one place to the next, how else would spelljamming vessels make trips between the various spheres?

[Melcar]

I feel like everytime I get one answer two new questions arise. It has become more on a problem understanding the cosmology or the interactions of multiple cosmologies of the multivers at this point. :smalleek:

At this point I am unsure of whether or not there simultaneously exist more than one cosmology at any given time in the multivers. The forgotten realms cosmology (the world tree) seems to be created by AO, but it makes no sence to have more that one of each elemental plane, through out the multivers. They seem more like something static/generic and thus have not been created as such. Therefor it would seem that some planes are universal across the multivers and other are linked to the specific cosmology. It would seem though that each setting has its own cosmology. Greyhawk = the great wheel, Toril=the great tree and Krynn=???

If we assume that Mystras power over magic extends to the whole of the great tree cosmology then traveling outside this cosmology would mean leaving the safe area of cunducted raw magic, and that should mean no magic for mortals, unless this was somehow governed by other beings, like Boccob, or simply less volatile (not in raw form like on Toril) than within the great tree (FR) cosmology.

I like the idea of seperate cosmologies... it sort of fits the setting. And kind of makes it more unique me thinks... Putting everything within the great wheel, well then it "just" another crystalphere, the fearunian deities would share their home planes and Ao's possition would somehow seem smaller, again just one amoung many.

For this whole thing to make any sense to me, I think there would need to be some universal planes. Devils comes from the abyss, so despite having more than one cosmology I would think that still only one, namely the abyss would exist. So on and so forth with alot of planes(the elemental planes). Who cotrols magic on these universal planes I dont know though! Any suggestions?

I also guess that the homeplanes of the different deities from different setings would have to basically be accessable from the astral plane, (unless locked) So only one universal astral plane. I guess this is why the astral plane is so big. This would contradict PGtF, but that story just seems stupid (I think).

Thats it for me for now...

[afroakuma]

Ok... very informative. Im still unsure of where you have gotten that the weave permiates the entirety of the cosmology, but I have no reason to dispute this. Im simply just curious.

Unfortunately the book that would contain the citation is the one book of mine that has gone missing (it's the FRCS, so it's kind of a loss for me :smallfrown: ) The problem is that FR books in 3rd Edition conflict with one another a great deal over matters like this, not to mention they're abjectly wrong quite often. However, I do remember the specific mention that the supernatural abilities of creatures that possess them, such as ghosts, tap the Weave. Ghosts exist on the Ethereal Plane. So at the very least there's evidence. Again, though, the planes just... don't get mentioned. Cause they suck. Anyway, if I find a thing I'll let you know, but until then take the statements from the books that say "creatures from planes that are not this plane require the Weave in order to even exist."


Correct me if I'm wrong but as I understand it, the cosmologies, either the great wheel or great tree, are supposed to a single cosmology. Either the one or the other... not both... right? I think what really got me confused was trying to understand a mix of the two.

It's either/or.


Im still confused about the number of material planes. Could you disclose this? It would seem that there is only one prime material plane, the crystal spheres floating in the plongiston, and that different worlds like Sigil, Oerth, Krynn and Earth are all part of this material plane. Small universes within the multivers.


In the great wheel they all have their own natural flow of magic, which is a unified one and in the great tree, the weave reaches out to these also?

Alright, I think the simplest way to do it is this:

Toril is one planet in one crystal sphere out of many. Krynn, Oerth and other worlds are also crystal spheres, all on one Prime Material Plane. The Weave covers only Toril and Mystra's own domain, which is on the Outer Planes.

Toril is one planet in the only solar system at all there's no such thing as Krynn or Oerth you silly people. Toril is the only important world recognized in this cosmology in the whole of the Prime Material Plane. No others. The Weave is a condensed utility form of raw magic, which is hooked into all things, though the gods don't make use of it on their own home planes since the raw magic there is attuned to them as well. The creatures of Toril and other planes use the Weave for all of their spells, spell-like and supernatural abilities.

In either of these cases, the Plane of Shadow allows you to access alternate cosmologies; these might be other worlds like Krynn and Oerth (if they don't exist, like in the World Tree cosmology) or complete alternate dimensions (Elminster is a chicken? The Dark Knight Rises wasn't a disappointing third installment? This universe is crazy!)

[Melcar]

Unfortunately the book that would contain the citation is the one book of mine that has gone missing (it's the FRCS, so it's kind of a loss for me :smallfrown: ) The problem is that FR books in 3rd Edition conflict with one another a great deal over matters like this, not to mention they're abjectly wrong quite often. However, I do remember the specific mention that the supernatural abilities of creatures that possess them, such as ghosts, tap the Weave. Ghosts exist on the Ethereal Plane. So at the very least there's evidence. Again, though, the planes just... don't get mentioned. Cause they suck. Anyway, if I find a thing I'll let you know, but until then take the statements from the books that say "creatures from planes that are not this plane require the Weave in order to even exist."



It's either/or.





Alright, I think the simplest way to do it is this:

Toril is one planet in one crystal sphere out of many. Krynn, Oerth and other worlds are also crystal spheres, all on one Prime Material Plane. The Weave covers only Toril and Mystra's own domain, which is on the Outer Planes.

Toril is one planet in the only solar system at all there's no such thing as Krynn or Oerth you silly people. Toril is the only important world recognized in this cosmology in the whole of the Prime Material Plane. No others. The Weave is a condensed utility form of raw magic, which is hooked into all things, though the gods don't make use of it on their own home planes since the raw magic there is attuned to them as well. The creatures of Toril and other planes use the Weave for all of their spells, spell-like and supernatural abilities.

In either of these cases, the Plane of Shadow allows you to access alternate cosmologies; these might be other worlds like Krynn and Oerth (if they don't exist, like in the World Tree cosmology) or complete alternate dimensions (Elminster is a chicken? The Dark Knight Rises wasn't a disappointing third installment? This universe is crazy!)


Yeah... there are a lot of anoying contradiction across the books.

For one, I can say that PGtF says that:

"As indicated in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting, the planar cosmology that includes the world of Toril is different and separate from the standard D&D cosmology described in the Dungeon Master’s Guide and Manual of the Planes. While the D&D cosmology is easily compared to a great wheel, Toril’s planes are arranged more like a tree with many branches."


"As described in Manual of the Planes, the Plane of Shadow constitutes the primary link between Toril’s planar cosmology and those of other worlds. The Plane of Shadow connects Toril’s Material Plane with those of other worlds, including the default world for the D&D core books—the World of Greyhawk. Naturally, in a land as full of magical portals as Faerûn is, unusual portals that connect to other Material Planes via conduits through the Plane of Shadow almost certainly exist. Some sages point to such connections as the source of spells named after the great wizards of Greyhawk, such as Otto’s irresistible dance, Otiluke’s freezing sphere, Tenser’s transformation, and the various Bigby’s hand spells."


So apparently the world tree does acknowledge the existence of other worlds... thus giving birth to my thought that there might be more than one cosmology. But that does not really make any sense.

I personally like the idea that the weave permeates all the planes... but at the same time, that would render all the non-forgotten realms deities void. Which I dont like. But I dont like the idea that the weave only covers Toril( realmspace and dweomerheart/whatever her plane is called in the great wheel.) Mystra has the ability to deny access to the weave even to other deities of her rank and lover, but why would they fear that? They can access the raw unfiltered magic and should not be dependent on the weave, like mortals, just like over deities can manipulate the philogiston. to create worlds.

Something that might work, to alleviate this would possibly say that the planes in close proximity to realmspace would be covered by the weave thus increasing the whole importance of the weave, but without rendering every other god of magic useless.

Indeed the great wheel seems bigger and more full of life, but at the same time diminishes the rank of Ao and the other deities somehow in my mind. How big deal can it really be if two gods steal the tablets of fate, when they only write about the one crystal sphere. One should think that there would be greater interplannar problems... or threats to the interplannar society. The great tree would somehow make it a bigger deal... unless im totally misunderstanding the ToT and what it was about.
All in all I think its cool to be able to travel to other worlds, just like Elminster does in them stories, where they meet in Ed's house on Earth. Both cosmologies allow this... apparently. But in the great wheel version Mystra would just be the custodian of magic for mortals on Toril. In the great tree, she would be more than just that, but that demands some explaining of indeed who governs magic on Earth.

This is exhausting :smalleek:... thanks to all, for all the great responses to my endless questions and comments in this matter. I dont know if we/I can get closer to a final answer... more might come in the future!

[Alleran]

Mystra has the ability to deny access to the weave even to other deities of her rank and lover, but why would they fear that?
Maybe because if she denies them the Weave, they can't use it to give spells to their followers? They'd have to go begging to Shar for Shadow Weave access or make all their clerics use a completely different system. It's just easier to cut a deal with Mystra (who's offering really good rental rates, after all - using the Weave gives her a boost, and your clerics get to have their spells and spread your worship to give you a boost, so everybody wins). She'll definitely give you a better deal than Shar would.

[Psyren]

Toril is one planet in the only solar system at all there's no such thing as Krynn or Oerth you silly people. Toril is the only important world recognized in this cosmology in the whole of the Prime Material Plane. No others. The Weave is a condensed utility form of raw magic, which is hooked into all things, though the gods don't make use of it on their own home planes since the raw magic there is attuned to them as well. The creatures of Toril and other planes use the Weave for all of their spells, spell-like and supernatural abilities.

I think you're being a bit too literal here. Just because the "Tree" diagram doesn't mention those other worlds, doesn't mean they don't exist - rather, it means that whatever in-universe sages, scholars or other entities assembled that diagram, either didn't consider or didn't bother to include the other material planes. Clearly there is a 3e version of Krynn and Greyhawk, so clearly they exist, even in the 3e Toril cosmology, whether they are drawn on a picture or not. And those quotes from PGTF strongly imply that there is even some form of communication between Toril and those other worlds, hence the Bigby's Hand spells making it to 3e Toril.

Anyway, enjoy the wedding!


So apparently the world tree does acknowledge the existence of other worlds... thus giving birth to my thought that there might be more than one cosmology. But that does not really make any sense.

I really don't see what doesn't make sense about it - Occam's Razor again. The diagram only has Toril because whoever drew it either didn't think to or didn't deem it necessary to draw any other Primes.

You can complicate anything if you put your mind to it, but there are simple explanations for just about every dilemma you've raised.

[Brookshw]

I don't have all the books in which these events were first published, so I took the summary of them from here.

http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/imaskar.htm
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Imaskar

Thanks, appreciate the links.

So it looks like there's a pretty large time frame of the mulan being around before they had any control of magic unless I'm missing something.

[Andion Isurand]

from The Grand History of the Realms, pg. 18

With his population devastated and desperate to
rebuild, Lord Artificer Khotan commissioned the building
of two new Bukhara Spires. These twin portals gave
access to another world whose people had no command
of the Art. During the next four centuries, the Imaskari
abducted tens of thousands of humans from this world
and brought them to Faerûn as slaves. This massive
influx of slave labor restored productivity and prosperity
to Lower Imaskar. Eventually, the slave population
began to intermarry with the Imaskari, giving rise to
the Mulan ethnicity.

In this case, "the Art" often implies arcane magic. And as far as divine magic goes, the people they abducted were unable to make contact with their deities, due to the planar barrier that the Imaskari erected. In addition, I'm sure that these human slaves were often prevented from learning magic, or disposed of if they showed signs of possessing innate magic.

[Brookshw]

In this case, "the Art" often implies arcane magic. And as far as divine magic goes, the people they abducted were unable to make contact with their deities, due to the planar barrier that the Imaskari erected. In addition, I'm sure that these human slaves were often prevented from learning magic, or disposed of if they showed signs of possessing innate magic. sure. Mainly I'm considering Psyren's assertion of quickly learning the art though it looks to have been a pretty protracted period.

[Psyren]

sure. Mainly I'm considering Psyren's assertion of quickly learning the art though it looks to have been a pretty protracted period.

Your quotes only appear to apply to divine magic at best, as they refer to Ao bringing their gods over.

"no command of the Art" seems to indicate they had no magic at all and thus don't prove anything one way or another.

[Brookshw]

Your quotes only appear to apply to divine magic at best, as they refer to Ao bringing their gods over.

"no command of the Art" seems to indicate they had no magic at all and thus don't prove anything one way or another.

Not really my quote to be honest. Anyway, the timeline from the first link gives a few thousand plus years of them cooling their heels on the prime before divine intervention, maybe longer before they had any actual arcane magic but its unclear when they developed any. If you know of any quotes that can shed light into the matter please let me know.

[Psyren]

Not really my quote to be honest. Anyway, the timeline from the first link gives a few thousand plus years of them cooling their heels on the prime before divine intervention, maybe longer before they had any actual arcane magic but its unclear when they developed any. If you know of any quotes that can shed light into the matter please let me know.

All I have are 3e/3.5e sourcebooks, so my quote would be the one from PGtF 140 about non-FR spells making it to FR, which was mentioned on the last page. If the two magic systems were radically different this would not be possible.

[Brookshw]

All I have are 3e/3.5e sourcebooks, so my quote would be the one from PGtF 140 about non-FR spells making it to FR, which was mentioned on the last page. If the two magic systems were radically different this would not be possible.

I'm not sure that's necessarily true but regardless it doesn't do much to support the claim regarding how quickly they acclimated themselves.

[Psyren]

I'm not sure that's necessarily true but regardless it doesn't do much to support the claim regarding how quickly they acclimated themselves.

The burden of proof is on you, isn't it? Magic works in FR unless proven otherwise. There are no races unable to use it unless specifically stated, like Karsites.

[Brookshw]

The burden of proof is on you, isn't it? Magic works in FR unless proven otherwise. There are no races unable to use it unless specifically stated, like Karsites.

Well no, usually its the person making the claim who has the burden of proof, and in this case that person is you.


Exactly - those other interlopers seemed to adapt to the "Weave" just fine without learning an all new magic system. Or at the very least, it was similar enough that they adapted pretty quickly.

Also we haven't established if this is a unilateral or a bilateral complication (actually seems like it's unilaterial, just not in the FR wizards favor). You're trying to prove it's either bilaterial or negligible, the latter of which by Ed we seem to be able to discount, and it looked like Afro supported this in terms of stepping outside of the FR cosmology. At this point it kinda looks like the land of the short bus wizards is exactly that and they simply suck at going elsewhere, but things from elsewhere that come in don't really have any problems.

I suppose we could just pop over to candlekeep and ask since he seems to take questions.

[Psyren]

Well no, usually its the person making the claim who has the burden of proof, and in this case that person is you.

Indeed, and you're claiming spellcasting works differently in FR, somehow. Despite spells and spellcasters crossing over without issue.

[Brookshw]

Indeed, and you're claiming spellcasting works differently in FR, somehow. Despite spells and spellcasters crossing over without issue.

Not exactly, I pointed out that per Ed a FR caster leaving the weave/Toril is in for a rough time. You're trying to disprove that by demonstrating an outside caster entering doesn't have any problems adapting and then by drawing a parallel to a non-FR caster entering, and a FR caster leaving. That's not really a great claim to begin with but I do find it interesting and have asked you, since page two, if you can expand upon the claim since I like fluff/canon and would like to hear more.

[Psyren]

Not exactly, I pointed out that per Ed a FR caster leaving the weave/Toril is in for a rough time. You're trying to disprove that by demonstrating an outside caster entering doesn't have any problems adapting and then by drawing a parallel to a non-FR caster entering, and a FR caster leaving. That's not really a great claim to begin with but I do find it interesting and have asked you, since page two, if you can expand upon the claim since I like fluff/canon and would like to hear more.

I responded to that quote on page 1, which is why I'm confused that you're asking me to repeat myself. But here:


"Not everything works the same" implies that most things do.

"Not everything works the same" is hardly as strong as your claim that they would universally be "in for a rough time." In fact, Ed's quote actually supports the belief that most things would be the same. To quote:


The Weave, in turn, is our mortal name for the flows of natural energy we call "magic" because we can harness it (spells, spell-like powers, psionics, et al being the ways in which we accomplish that harnessing), that permeate Toril and are an integral part of all life in, on, and in the atmosphere of Toril. Such natural flows, and magic, exist on other planes, and permit travel and energy flows from plane to plane, but only on Toril are the flows known as the Weave, administered by Mystra, and possess a 'Shadow Weave.'

He is here implying that "Weave" is just what FR spellcasters call magic. The energies/flows may have a different name elsewhere, but the difference is for the most part semantic. And some things will work differently, but for the most part spellcasting is spellcasting.

[Brookshw]

I responded to that quote on page 1, which is why I'm confused that you're asking me to repeat myself. Mostly because your later assertion of it being a quick recalibration was never established other than by virtue of your claim rather than evidence.


"Not everything works the same" is hardly as strong as your claim that they would universally be "in for a rough time." In fact, Ed's quote actually supports the belief that most things would be the same. It doesn't really matter whether it's a "rough time" or not (though I believe his word was "surprise"). You're claim that is that things work almost the same and you're trying to hold the Mulan up as evidence, which, in additional to being a poor example since it's a unilaterial change rather than a bilaterial change, you haven't actually supported. Further you've asserted that "not everything works the same" is indicative of most things working the same. It's not. Maybe 10% do, maybe 90% do. We don't know so you're just going ahead and making an assumption of how it works. Go ahead and take the "rough time" out of my statement, it's simply off the cuff.


He is here implying that "Weave" is just what FR spellcasters call magic. The energies/flows may have a different name elsewhere, but the difference is for the most part semantic. And some things will work differently, but for the most part spellcasting is spellcasting.It's not really as relevant as you think. That a tide may have a specific name somewhere and tides existing everywhere doesn't mean that all tides act in the same fashion. There's no claim in what you've bolded regarding all natural magical flows acting the same but there is a later claim regarding FR wizards leaving the flow they're used to and then having things not going as they expect.

[Melcar]

I responded to that quote on page 1, which is why I'm confused that you're asking me to repeat myself. But here:



"Not everything works the same" is hardly as strong as your claim that they would universally be "in for a rough time." In fact, Ed's quote actually supports the belief that most things would be the same. To quote:



He is here implying that "Weave" is just what FR spellcasters call magic. The energies/flows may have a different name elsewhere, but the difference is for the most part semantic. And some things will work differently, but for the most part spellcasting is spellcasting.

This, I feel contradicts official 3.X products importants on her. If she in indeed only the admin on that "net-work", called the weave in FR, called the force in starwars, I feel it makes no sense for the weave to stop working because the admin dies. If she is just the admin the weave should not have ended... afterall its a natural occuring flow of energy... natural meaning not dependent on anyone (at least thats how I read and understand what Ed's saying in the quote). Again she is in many product raised to a status of more than just an admin... she is the reason itself for magic... again my point being she cant be that important and yet the weave be a nutural flowing occurenc, because if it stop the second she dies, then its not natural no more, but particular, and that contradict the creators word. Which means two things... either all the FR 3.x products have written something which is blatently wrong or Eds wrong. The two versions of her importanse cannot exist at the same time... in my oppinion. But that does not explain why the weave faltered every time she died. Those events lead me to believe she is more, that just the admin, and if so, then the weave should be more of a necessity for magic in general... which in turn contradicts Ed, which in turn contradicts official stories.

Im sorry... but something is clearly wrong. Both versions cant be right at the same time...

[afroakuma]

Melcar, the problem I'm having with this thread, and the reason I'm going to hold off on any further efforts for the moment, is that I get the sense - and this could be off the mark, but this is just how it's coming across - that you want the answer to be "they don't, the magic shuts off." Every answer to the contrary seems to be met with consternation and confusion on your part.

Now, if this is not the case, then I'm more than happy to keep helping, provided I have an idea of what it is you're really looking for. What, in a couple of sentences at most, would be a satisfactory resolution to this question for you? Help me understand how to answer your question in a way that appeases you.

[Melcar]

Melcar, the problem I'm having with this thread, and the reason I'm going to hold off on any further efforts for the moment, is that I get the sense - and this could be off the mark, but this is just how it's coming across - that you want the answer to be "they don't, the magic shuts off." Every answer to the contrary seems to be met with consternation and confusion on your part.

Now, if this is not the case, then I'm more than happy to keep helping, provided I have an idea of what it is you're really looking for. What, in a couple of sentences at most, would be a satisfactory resolution to this question for you? Help me understand how to answer your question in a way that appeases you.

I sorry if I come across like that... Thats not at all what I want. I simply feel that they just chose not to explain how, or why and I dont understand why or how within logic its possible. I feel there are a lot of contradictions that I'm sort of trying to uncover or get a hold of. I have mentioned a lot.

In our game magic also just works, but now I have started to think about what or who controls magic when plane traveling. And the two answers I get seems to me illogical. Either its a natural flow or a deity controls it. And then more complexities arrive when dealing with two different cosmologies. So I dont at all want magic not to work, but it just seems to me, that the designers couldn't be bothered with explaining stuff and just didnt... and that really anoys me, because we are left with answers that make no sense... not to me at least.

My frieds tell me I theorize too much... I wont deny that. :smallredface:

EDIT: I do apologize if I seem to just brush off the comments and answers you all have given.

[Psyren]

Mostly because your later assertion of it being a quick recalibration was never established other than by virtue of your claim rather than evidence.

You mean aside from the quotes provided?


Further you've asserted that "not everything works the same" is indicative of most things working the same. It's not. Maybe 10% do, maybe 90% do.

You're right, we don't know exactly what is different, but one would not use that phrase if the changes were radical. If I tell you "Not everything in the Game of Thrones TV show goes the way it did in the books" - that phrasing implies that the differences are a minority.



It's not really as relevant as you think. That a tide may have a specific name somewhere and tides existing everywhere doesn't mean that all tides act in the same fashion. There's no claim in what you've bolded regarding all natural magical flows acting the same but there is a later claim regarding FR wizards leaving the flow they're used to and then having things not going as they expect.

This goes right back to the burden of proof being on you to show that the tides behave differently. Again, Ed's statement implies this is not the case.

If you're looking for something ironclad/definitive, then I'm afraid that, like Melcar, you're out of luck (unless you follow your earlier suggestion of asking Ed himself.) Me, I've got better things to do.


Melcar, the problem I'm having with this thread, and the reason I'm going to hold off on any further efforts for the moment, is that I get the sense - and this could be off the mark, but this is just how it's coming across - that you want the answer to be "they don't, the magic shuts off." Every answer to the contrary seems to be met with consternation and confusion on your part.

Now, if this is not the case, then I'm more than happy to keep helping, provided I have an idea of what it is you're really looking for. What, in a couple of sentences at most, would be a satisfactory resolution to this question for you? Help me understand how to answer your question in a way that appeases you.

This is exactly why I originally stopped providing theories too (and, on reflection, will do so again.)

[Melcar]

You mean aside from the quotes provided?



You're right, we don't know exactly what is different, but one would not use that phrase if the changes were radical. If I tell you "Not everything in the Game of Thrones TV show goes the way it did in the books" - that phrasing implies that the differences are a minority.



This goes right back to the burden of proof being on you to show that the tides behave differently. Again, Ed's statement implies this is not the case.

If you're looking for something ironclad/definitive, then I'm afraid that, like Melcar, you're out of luck (unless you follow your earlier suggestion of asking Ed himself.) Me, I've got better things to do.



This is exactly why I originally stopped providing theories too (and, on reflection, will do so again.)

Indeed... And I cant say that I blame you. I'm a nerd, so sometimes I get a little ahead of myself. Lets just leave it.

PS: As to the two sentence... I want to make a comparative analysis of all inconsistencies throughout official material, pit the inconsistencies against each other to find one logical truth about how the great tree encompasses all the settings, gods, and planes and find out exactly who governs magic where and whether or not that would/should mean loss of spellcasting. To do this, first we/I would have to exactly find out whether or not the weave is just the background flow of magic or a particular flow of magic. And exactly Mystra, and Boccob and Asmodeauses roles in all of this.

I'm sure I have this project all for my self... But again I want to thank everybody who participated with comments and answers. And again I apologize for any attitude I might have brought to the thread.