[3.5] Challenging low tier characters

[Senshi Akai]

Hey guys!

I am DMing for a group with a huge power gap between each PC and am in need of help.

The party is consisted by:
A Monk/Tattooed Monk aiming at Monk of the Enabled Hand (some sort of tank, I guess)
A Ninja/Dervish (the main dps)
A generalist Wizard (playing a mix of GOD style and Batman)
A VoP Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor (focus on cure spells and summoning, but he has DMM if needed)
They are all level 11.

The problem: I am dividing the campaign in "arcs", each one focused in one or two character so everyone can shine. Each "arc" has a special boss/challenge that the focused character is supposed to beat/solve (for instance, last arc had lots of undead for the Cleric, as he is totally devoted to Pelor and the whole "destroy undead" thing).

This time the Ninja and the Monk are the focus (for background reasons). However, I can't think of anything that can be challeging to the two and NOT a trivial thing for the Cleric or the Wizard. A tough, but winnable fight to the two non-casters would be a piece of cake to the casters, but something that can challenge the casters are almost a death sentence to the Monk and the Ninja.

The group isn't heavily op, and I try to help the non-casters by giving them some nice extra items/gold so they can keep up. But I would like to create a boss situation where they are vital to the encounter AND the casters aren't so effective. How can I do that? Any thoughts?

Any help would be much appreciated. :smallsmile:

[atemu1234]

Since you've got a VoP anything, be careful with the WBL. Also, set the players against thing on average about one CR lower than their average level, if you're worried about low-OP.

[Gwendol]

They could be challenged to a duel of sorts (bare-handed combat, mano a mano), maybe taking place in a city or similar where displays of arcane and divine magic are heavily regulated.

[Kesnit]

Two ideas...

1) High SR enemies. You said the PCs are low op. Did the casters take the feats/spells that make bypassing SR easier? If not, that may be an option.

2) Dead magic zone, maybe centered on the BBEG.

The idea of the one-on-one fight is also a good idea.

[Extra Anchovies]

The idea of dead magic is a good one. However, it may be better to make it wild/unpredictable magic instead, so the casters still have a chance at contributing. Focus remains on them mundanes, but the casters provide a tiny bit of help.

[Senshi Akai]

Thanks for the quick answer. :smallsmile:


Since you've got a VoP anything, be careful with the WBL. Also, set the players against thing on average about one CR lower than their average level, if you're worried about low-OP.

I am keeping an eye close to the WBL, and until now it is not a problem. As for CR lower than their average level... Wouldn't it still be extremely easy for the casters? :smallconfused:



They could be challenged to a duel of sorts (bare-handed combat, mano a mano), maybe taking place in a city or similar where displays of arcane and divine magic are heavily regulated.

That is an idea that could work perfectly. I will definitely use that!



Two ideas...

1) High SR enemies. You said the PCs are low op. Did the casters take the feats/spells that make bypassing SR easier? If not, that may be an option.

2) Dead magic zone, maybe centered on the BBEG.

The idea of the one-on-one fight is also a good idea.


The idea of dead magic is a good one. However, it may be better to make it wild/unpredictable magic instead, so the casters still have a chance at contributing. Focus remains on them mundanes, but the casters provide a tiny bit of help.

Unfortunately, the Wizard uses lots of conjuration and no-SR spells (I don't think he even realizes he uses those). But the dead/wild magic zone, that would work just fine. However, is there any way to prevent it? It's almost certain that the Wizard will do his homework and divine all he can (probably discovering the dead/wild magic zone).

[SciChronic]

have the final arena involve some randomly appearing and disappearing anti-magic zones (possibly caused by a ritual gone awry when the PCs interrupted BBEG)

you can give BBEG some magic item that lets him cast silence (or make the entire arena under the effect of a silence spell), a lot of spells have vocal components and will fail under silence.

[Oko and Qailee]

Make an enemy with a hollow sphere AMF always around it. How did it get that? Magic. Spells can't pass through, but the monk might be able to get close enough that he can punch it. Fists enter the enemies square when they connect, so magic enhancements to his fists can arguably apply.

Idk, I'm not great at this.

[Oko and Qailee]

Unfortunately, the Wizard uses lots of conjuration and no-SR spells (I don't think he even realizes he uses those). But the dead/wild magic zone, that would work just fine. However, is there any way to prevent it? It's almost certain that the Wizard will do his homework and divine all he can (probably discovering the dead/wild magic zone).

Conjuration (creation) effects, as far as I'm aware, function in Anit magic zones, because they cease to be magical after they're cast.

[Kamai]

Make a use of a lot of magic the only way to get to the enemy in the first place. You'd have to combine this with some sort of time limit, of course, but that could pressure out a lot of spell slots before the fight.

Edit: Alternatively, a Shadow of the Colossus style Golem, especially if you make it "smart" enough to deal with illusions, could make for a really great showcase fight for those 2.

[eggynack]

Make an enemy with a hollow sphere AMF always around it. How did it get that? Magic. Spells can't pass through, but the monk might be able to get close enough that he can punch it. Fists enter the enemies square when they connect, so magic enhancements to his fists can arguably apply.

Doesn't really work. AMF's suppress spells, rather than blocking them, so a given spell would disappear for the split second it touches the sphere, and reappear on the other side before slamming the opponent. Anyway, as my proposal, maybe non-combat is the best way. Fighting a big boss is definitely more climactic, but that's not necessarily an option here, so constructing a situation where they have to talk to him instead could make sense.

[Telok]

An evil cult.
One high priest or mystic theurge, buffed to the max with magic denial. The globes of invulnerability ignore the SR and antimagic issues and he can cast blindsight and true seeing. Then give him minions, at least a couple should be hiding counterspellers woth cloud spells, illusions, and summons to use when not countering spells.

Your monk and ninja can either kill the boss or kill the minions. If the casters focus on the boss the minions are free to sumon monsters or something. If the casters focus on the minions the melees get to take the boss.

Also, don't make it an arena fight. Do it during a party or ball. Plenty of important bystanders should limit the area spells and possibly some of the prebuffing.

[JusticeZero]

Don't focus on combat at all. Use their background and skills and build the story around them - the casters will still dominate the fights, but the fights are filler.

[Vogonjeltz]

Unfortunately, the Wizard uses lots of conjuration and no-SR spells (I don't think he even realizes he uses those). But the dead/wild magic zone, that would work just fine. However, is there any way to prevent it? It's almost certain that the Wizard will do his homework and divine all he can (probably discovering the dead/wild magic zone).

Quick spell effect counters for the Wizard:
1) Forbiddance - no conjuration even works. (this could be problematic if your players have vastly differing alignments, because it would also probably kill one or more of them.
2) Dimensional Lock - as above, but it won't instagib the squishiest players if they happen to not share alignments.
3) Antimagic Field - Won't stop instantaneous spells from entering the zone, though if they're inside it stops the actual casting.

There's also rules for making custom spells, so there's no reason you can't make weaker versions of these to tailor for the appropriate level.

Other counters:
1) Counterspelling minions - A sorcerer minion of 'the real threat' (tm) who does nothing but counterspell the wizards' machinations. This can apply to the Cleric too.
2) Summon monster spells are normally 1 round castings, that gives enemies plenty of time to interrupt through damage, grapple, etc... Play the monsters/other sentient entities intelligently, target the guy with in the bathrobe.
3) Archers - Readied actions to shoot people attempting to cast spells. These could be level 1 guys and they'd still have a halfway decent chance of interrupting the casting.
4) Grappling - The vast majority of spells have somatic components. This isn't happening in a grapple. Although some Wizards prepare for this, most don't even think about it, so they're vulnerable here.
5) Disarming/Sundering - You can grab/smash items right out of their grubby little hands. Oh what, you were using that wand? Not anymore! Did you need that Arcane Focus to even cast summon spells? Oops I just cut it in half. Now it's garbage!

The beauty of most of these other options is that it doesn't particularly matter what the composition of your threat is, virtually anyone can do them and they're either low or no threat to a monk or ninja. (Although only sentient creatures are likely to try the counterspell/readied actions/disarming/sundering tactics.)

You could also try throwing out non-combat challenges that speak to the monk and ninja's skills: Balancing, Sneaking, Avoiding/disarming traps. Think obstacle course, or the starting sequence of Raiders of the Lost Ark. Something where the spellcasters could get through it, but they'd end up exhausting a fair number of spells by doing so.

[nedz]

It's very difficult.

You can try to keep the casters on the back foot by throwing problems at them. If they spend all of their time, and spells, countering the other side's battlefield control then they won't have much opportunity to be pro-active themselves. This is quite hard, but not impossible.

Or you could try a small army of mooks using hit and run style attacks.

Are the Monk and Ninja stealthy ? If so some infiltration (or counter infiltration) type shenanigans might work.

[Sith_Happens]

Conjuration (creation) effects, as far as I'm aware, function in Anit magic zones, because they cease to be magical after they're cast.

Only if they're instantaneous.


Are the Monk and Ninja stealthy ? If so some infiltration (or counter infiltration) type shenanigans might work.

This is what I was going to suggest. I'm pretty sure that most Wizards and Clerics don't include many stealth-related spells in their default load out, so a stealth section that the party doesn't have a day's warning of will consequently be the Monk and/or Ninja's job to pull off.

Similarly, if you can engineer a situation or encounter that rewards having acrobatic skills while impeding flight (protip: wind) I guarantee that the Monk and Ninja will be the most equipped to handle it.

If you want to throw a bone to the Ninja specifically, have an obstacle that most easily bypassed by being ethereal.

[Ettina]

The Ninja is stealthy, right? How stealthy is the Monk?

If they're both much stealthier than the cleric and wizard, you could put in a lot of stealth puzzles. For example, an unkillable enemy with the only way to kill him being something you need to sneak around him to get.

[J-H]

Antimagic field
Multiple climb/balance/etc type exercises, along with reasons to not fly (reversed gravity, archers/traps
Enemy attacks that target Reflex saves
Enemies with pumped spell resistance

[Senshi Akai]

Lots of good ideas. I will try to answer all.


Make a use of a lot of magic the only way to get to the enemy in the first place. You'd have to combine this with some sort of time limit, of course, but that could pressure out a lot of spell slots before the fight.

Edit: Alternatively, a Shadow of the Colossus style Golem, especially if you make it "smart" enough to deal with illusions, could make for a really great showcase fight for those 2.

Resources exhaustion, huh? It's definitely an option, although I already did that before. A Golem, however, would be a bit too much (I don't think the monk and the ninja could bypass its defenses).


... Anyway, as my proposal, maybe non-combat is the best way. Fighting a big boss is definitely more climactic, but that's not necessarily an option here, so constructing a situation where they have to talk to him instead could make sense.

I thought about that, but I think they would be a little disappointed. The monk is really looking foward to a fight.


An evil cult post...

That's excellent, and would fit almost perfectly in the setting. Thanks!


-long post-

Lots of good ideas here. I will try to combine some of those and see what happens, especially the sunder/disarm. Knowing the wizard, he will retreat and just buff his allies. :smallamused:


It's very difficult.

You can try to keep the casters on the back foot by throwing problems at them. If they spend all of their time, and spells, countering the other side's battlefield control then they won't have much opportunity to be pro-active themselves. This is quite hard, but not impossible.

Or you could try a small army of mooks using hit and run style attacks.

Are the Monk and Ninja stealthy ? If so some infiltration (or counter infiltration) type shenanigans might work.


This is what I was going to suggest. I'm pretty sure that most Wizards and Clerics don't include many stealth-related spells in their default load out, so a stealth section that the party doesn't have a day's warning of will consequently be the Monk and/or Ninja's job to pull off.

Similarly, if you can engineer a situation or encounter that rewards having acrobatic skills while impeding flight (protip: wind) I guarantee that the Monk and Ninja will be the most equipped to handle it.

If you want to throw a bone to the Ninja specifically, have an obstacle that most easily bypassed by being ethereal.


The Ninja is stealthy, right? How stealthy is the Monk?

If they're both much stealthier than the cleric and wizard, you could put in a lot of stealth puzzles. For example, an unkillable enemy with the only way to kill him being something you need to sneak around him to get.

The ninja is much more stealthy than the monk (it IS her job), but both can do that. Stealth puzzles sounds neat, as well as a infiltration-type mission/boss. I think these ideas combined will do the job.

----

I think that is just what I needed folks. :smallsmile: Already have an idea of what to do next session. Thank you all!

[Sith_Happens]

I think that is just what I needed folks. :smallsmile: Already have an idea of what to do next session. Thank you all!

What about my "acrobatic encounter" suggestion? Would work especially well as part of the "final boss" battle, you can set it in an especially unique arena.