Magic immunity

[Max Caysey]

Hello... I was reading the epic golem stats on d20 srd, and there it says that the mithral and adamantine golems are immune to all magical and supernatural abilities. But how can that be? AFAIK magic immunity was erreta'd into unbeatable SR... Since (Su) dont allow SR, how then can they be immune to this? The same goes for The Demi lich. Can anyone explain this?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The Epic Level Handbook is a 3.0 book. Thus those abilities are based off the older magic immunity.

[Necroticplague]

Hello... I was reading the epic golem stats on d20 srd, and there it says that the mithral and adamantine golems are immune to all magical and supernatural abilities. But how can that be? AFAIK magic immunity was erreta'd into unbeatable SR... Since (Su) dont allow SR, how then can they be immune to this? The same goes for The Demi lich. Can anyone explain this?

It was poorly thought out 3.0 content that didn't get updated. It should probably be changed to just immunity to SR:yes, and left at that, making them now vulnderable to SU.

[Jeraa]

The Epic Level Handbook did get an update booklet to bring it up to 3.5. However, the Magic Immunity was left unchanged. This could mean it was just an oversight, or it could of been left unchanged intentionally. They are epic monsters, the intention could of been for them to be more challenging.

Either way, the epic golems Magic Immunity is unchanged in 3.5.

[Divide by Zero]

As written, it's just a case of Specific Trumps General. But yeah, should probably be updated.

[Psyren]

You can (and should easily be able to, at those levels) still gate in something nasty to beat on them, or buff up the fighter to deal with them, or drop them in a hole, or simply teleport past whatever they're guarding. Hell, they're still mindless, so a silent image will fool them as surely as it does their non-epic brethren. In short, casters still have a lot of options to deal with them even if they shrug off more magic than normal.

[Werephilosopher]

A manifester would have little trouble dealing with them. Because the 3.0 magic immunity isn't based off spell resistance, it doesn't block powers that offer power resistance; and magic-psionics transparency doesn't equate "all spells" with "all powers."

[Max Caysey]

I think I will simply update the immunity to fit The rest of the golems. I think thats the thing that makes the most sense.

[eggynack]

You can (and should easily be able to, at those levels) still gate in something nasty to beat on them, or buff up the fighter to deal with them, or drop them in a hole, or simply teleport past whatever they're guarding. Hell, they're still mindless, so a silent image will fool them as surely as it does their non-epic brethren. In short, casters still have a lot of options to deal with them even if they shrug off more magic than normal.
It's actually not clear the extent to which those methods work, or which ones do. As a simple example, is a gated creature no longer an aspect of the gate spell? Is the whole process not magical? If not, then at what point does the creature stop being part of the spell? Could that same point, that same overall logic, be used to justify orb of fire not being a spell when it hits the opponent? If it can, then could the same logic be applied to any SR: no spell? To my mind, the answer to most, maybe all, of these questions is ambiguous. The ability, beyond just being some superior form of the current ability, just doesn't make sense.

[Max Caysey]

Instant Conjuration (Creation) spells are real. Just like called creatures are real. Thats why the 3.0 version makes no sense to me. And since (Su) do not allow SR, I would say, that it affected these epic golems, and also The demi lich.

[Psyren]

It's actually not clear the extent to which those methods work, or which ones do. As a simple example, is a gated creature no longer an aspect of the gate spell? Is the whole process not magical? If not, then at what point does the creature stop being part of the spell?

Your questions are answered by the magic rules themselves. See the quotes below:


Gate
Conjuration (Creation or Calling)
...
Duration: Instantaneous or concentration (up to 1 round/level); see text
...
Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect).
...
This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures.

So far so good - the above quote then points us to the Calling rules:


Calling
A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled.

No contradictions so far - which then leads us to the last piece of the puzzle.


Instantaneous
The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

There is no ongoing magic active with an instantaneous spell - it happens (and, if applicable, resistance/immunity are checked at that point in time) and then the magic goes away. Any secondary or tertiary result of that spell - like a called creature's ability to hang around - is non magical. Just as if I were to use Disintegrate to magically remove a support beam next to your golem and cause the non-magical ceiling to cave in on its head.

[eggynack]

Your questions are answered by the magic rules themselves. See the quotes below:



So far so good - the above quote then points us to the Calling rules:



No contradictions so far - which then leads us to the last piece of the puzzle.



There is no ongoing magic active with an instantaneous spell - it happens (and, if applicable, resistance/immunity are checked at that point in time) and then the magic goes away. Any secondary or tertiary result of that spell - like a called creature's ability to hang around - is non magical. Just as if I were to use Disintegrate to magically remove a support beam next to your golem and cause the non-magical ceiling to cave in on its head.
That's a fair argument, I suppose. The overall extrapolation of that logical line seems to line up with the idea of epic immunity as a skin tight AMF. Still, it's not clear how far that AMF actually extends. There is ongoing magic, after all, in an illusion spell, and there is also ongoing magic in a buff you cast on a party member. Does immunity to magical effects also mean immunity to illusions, and thus the ability to see through them? It's just a generally unclear and tricky thing, I think. Gate might actually be the simplest case, as far as providing a seemingly unambiguous solution goes.

[Pan151]

Which is exactly why you should probably just interpret "immunity to all magic" as "immunity to all magic that directly affects you" (aka SR=infinity). You do not have to incessantly agonise over the whole thing just because 3.0 magic immunity was worded slightly differently to the 3.5 one...

[eggynack]

Which is exactly why you should probably just interpret "immunity to all magic" as "immunity to all magic that directly affects you" (aka SR=infinity). You do not have to incessantly agonise over the whole thing just because 3.0 magic immunity was worded slightly differently to the 3.5 one...
Maybe, or maybe not. I tend to prefer that interpretation, but if the actual wording is viable, then that might just be the one we should use. My stance is that the wording is not viable, which is why I'm poking holes in it, and Psyren seems to think it is viable, which is presumably why he's attempting to fill in those holes. And, y'know, this is as good a thing to incessantly agonize over as anything else.

[Max Caysey]

Maybe, or maybe not. I tend to prefer that interpretation, but if the actual wording is viable, then that might just be the one we should use. My stance is that the wording is not viable, which is why I'm poking holes in it, and Psyren seems to think it is viable, which is presumably why he's attempting to fill in those holes. And, y'know, this is as good a thing to incessantly agonize over as anything else.

Indeed... I do think thought that its actually possible to become immune to all. Even SR=infinity or and AMF will only get you so far. The question is thus what kind of DR does these epic golems have. Was their magic imminuty like a skintight AMF then every weapon that struck them would be mundane... meaning that the 15/epic and adamantine of te mithral golem would never be broken and thus they could as well have written 15/-

My point is that unless it was an AMF supernatural abilities should indeed affect them.