[3.5] Need help with a Cleric

[Omnisandro]

Getting back to RPGs after a 8 years.
I'm excited like a dog with a bone, but i never played 3.5. ( Except for Neverwinter Nights )
Could you guys help me a little bit?

I can only use the source books (no PHBII), Forgotten realms books and complete divine.
The DM considers caster overpowered, so to control them he limits the books we can use.

I choose to play a Human, so i found this: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Clericzilla_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build) but obviously i can't use Spontaneous Domain and Strength Devotion.

What should i change?
And please, some suggestions of Equipment, magic equipament and spell choices would help a lot too.

Thanks in advance. :smallsmile:

[Extra Anchovies]

It's interesting how your DM considers casters OP and then gave you access to DMM: Persist :smallbiggrin:

The build looks good, though. Too bad you can't pick up a devotion feat.

[Divide by Zero]

As a side note: be careful about content you find on dandwiki. A lot of the non-SRD material is poorly balanced homebrew, and a lot of the "build" pages either don't actually work as advertised or just aren't very good.

[Omnisandro]

It's interesting how your DM considers casters OP and then gave you access to DMM: Persist :smallbiggrin:

The build looks good, though. Too bad you can't pick up a devotion feat.

Yeah.
As far as i know, they had bad experiences with former players who abused caster to the point of destroying the campaign.

He just made me choose only one of the ''complete'' books, so i choose the most obvious.

[Omnisandro]

As a side note: be careful about content you find on dandwiki. A lot of the non-SRD material is poorly balanced homebrew, and a lot of the "build" pages either don't actually work as advertised or just aren't very good.

Is that the case with the build i posted? :smallfrown:

[Ellowryn]

Well, what level are you starting and how far do you think your group will go? That will help give us a range to work with. Also, what is your spell access look like? Are you restricted to Core + Complete + FRCS? If not then there are good spells like Greater Luminous Armor and Lesser Mass Vigor. From Core spells like Divine Power, and Righteous Might if you are not going to have to worry about the size, are important to persist.

For items that will depend on what you have access to. If you can grab a single Nightsick from Libris Mortis, Ephod of Authority from Magic Item Compendium, Metamagic Rods of Lesser extend and regular Extend for your Hour/level Buffs.

And the build is fine, its just you cant get Planning from Pelor (unless your DM allows is) so you will have to pick up extend domain as a normal feat.

[Omnisandro]

Well, what level are you starting and how far do you think your group will go? That will help give us a range to work with. Also, what is your spell access look like? Are you restricted to Core + Complete + FRCS? If not then there are good spells like Greater Luminous Armor and Lesser Mass Vigor. From Core spells like Divine Power, and Righteous Might if you are not going to have to worry about the size, are important to persist.

For items that will depend on what you have access to. If you can grab a single Nightsick from Libris Mortis, Ephod of Authority from Magic Item Compendium, Metamagic Rods of Lesser extend and regular Extend for your Hour/level Buffs.

And the build is fine, its just you cant get Planning from Pelor (unless your DM allows is) so you will have to pick up extend domain as a normal feat.

Thanks for helping.

We are starting at level 4 and probably going all the way to epic levels.
My spell acess, atleast to begin with, is restricted to the books i'm allowed to use ( the 3 source books, forgotten realms books and complete divine )
For items, maybe i can convice my DM to allow me to buy from other books, like libris mortis, in the future.

I don't know what is Planning but, i'm going to be under Lathender, but using the Pelor class, allowed by DM.

[Omnisandro]

Btw, every race will do.
I choose Human but at first i wanted Aasimar, but their penalty is too harsh.

[Ellowryn]

Planning was referring to the Planning domain which gives the cleric the feat Extend Spell for free, which you need to take Persist Spell.

That stinks on the lack of spell access but yeah persist Elation and Lesser Vigor (on the dedicated meatshield, also forgot that it was also in Complete Divine so that's nice at least) until you get 3rd level spells and then persist Mass Lesser Vigor on everyone in the party that you can (cause free healing means less downtime between combat and less spells wasted per day).

[Extra Anchovies]

Well, what level are you starting and how far do you think your group will go? That will help give us a range to work with. Also, what is your spell access look like? Are you restricted to Core + Complete + FRCS? If not then there are good spells like Greater Luminous Armor and Lesser Mass Vigor. From Core spells like Divine Power, and Righteous Might if you are not going to have to worry about the size, are important to persist.

The Vigor chain, conveniently enough, shows up in Complete Divine. Another reason why that book is just so darn powerful. Which means the Persist List should probably be, in order:
Divine Power
Mass Lesser Vigor or Vigorous Circle
Righteous Might
Divine Favor
Recitation
[some whole party buffs]

[Eonir]

Btw, every race will do.
I choose Human but at first i wanted Aasimar, but their penalty is too harsh.

If you're talking about their LA, you could play a Lesser Aasimar from Player's Guide to Fearun. Basically, LA 0 aasimars.

[Extra Anchovies]

If you're talking about their LA, you could play a Lesser Aasimar from Player's Guide to Fearun. Basically, LA 0 aasimars.

That's true. However, he'd lose Extra Turning, which might not be worth the ability score adjustments as it could knock him down from six persist-extended buffs to four.

Also. In that build table, why is "extend spell" listed under class features? ETA: Oh, Planning domain. Clever.

[Omnisandro]

If you're talking about their LA, you could play a Lesser Aasimar from Player's Guide to Fearun. Basically, LA 0 aasimars.

Can't use that book, sadly.

[Omnisandro]

Planning was referring to the Planning domain which gives the cleric the feat Extend Spell for free, which you need to take Persist Spell.

That stinks on the lack of spell access but yeah persist Elation and Lesser Vigor (on the dedicated meatshield, also forgot that it was also in Complete Divine so that's nice at least) until you get 3rd level spells and then persist Mass Lesser Vigor on everyone in the party that you can (cause free healing means less downtime between combat and less spells wasted per day).


The DM just allowed to worship Amaunator, so we got that covered now. :)

[Starmage21]

Can't use that book, sadly.

I'd ask your DM to reconsider. Players Guide to Faerûn is the 3.5 update to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, plus some extra stuff so they could sell it again. Everything that is re-printed in PGtF is supposed to supersede anything that appears in FRCS.

[Omnisandro]

I'd ask your DM to reconsider. Players Guide to Faerûn is the 3.5 update to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, plus some extra stuff so they could sell it again. Everything that is re-printed in PGtF is supposed to supersede anything that appears in FRCS.

Oh, so he probably will allow it. He mentioned ''forgotten realms player handbook'', so he must have refered to that ( the book name is another in our language )

[Omnisandro]

Quick recap:

Race either Human, Aasimar or Lesser Aasimar ( DM will decide, in the end )
Worshiper of Amaunator ( Sun and Planning )
Starting at level 4 going atleast to 20
Allowed books: 3 source books (no PHBII), Forgotten Realms books and Complete Divine.

Following more or less this archetype: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Clericzilla_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)

[Starmage21]

Quick recap:

Race either Human, Aasimar or Lesser Aasimar ( DM will decide, in the end )
Worshiper of Amaunator ( Sun and Planning )
Starting at level 4 going atleast to 20
Allowed books: 3 source books (no PHBII), Forgotten Realms books and Complete Divine.

Following more or less this archetype: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Clericzilla_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)

I'd say you're solid. You really cant fault that build. If your DM is scared of casters, he will really be afraid when you get the Divine Trio activated (Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might) and fight better than a fighter.

[Omnisandro]

I'd say you're solid. You really cant fault that build. If your DM is scared of casters, he will really be afraid when you get the Divine Trio activated (Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might) and fight better than a fighter.

Still, the last two feat choices are from Champions, i cannot use those.

[Starmage21]

Still, the last two feat choices are from Champions, i cannot use those.

Id worry about them when you get there. You're only level 4 for right now.

[Omnisandro]

Id worry about them when you get there. You're only level 4 for right now.

Fair enough.
I still have one question, what would be the optimal starting ability scores for a 28 points Human build?

I came up with this:


STR - 10
DEX - 8
CON - 12
INT - 8
WIS - 18
CHA - 14

[Extra Anchovies]

Fair enough.
I still have one question, what would be the optimal starting ability scores for a 28 points Human build?

I came up with this:


STR - 10
DEX - 8
CON - 12
INT - 8
WIS - 18
CHA - 14

Skill-wise, you'll want Concentration and Spellcraft – plus maybe Knowledge (Religion). Also if you're a fighty type then a dex penalty = not good.

STR - 13 (for Power Attack)
DEX - 10
CON - 12
INT - 8
WIS - 17
CHA - 12

Increase Wisdom to 18 at level 4. Pick up a tome somewhere along the way if you want to get another point of Strength bonus. Cha of 12 + extra turning = 8 turns/day, enough for two Persistent Extended buffs active at a time. Nab a Nightstick plus enough items to get two more turn attempts and that doubles to four. Try to find a Cloak of Charisma (or better yet, Belt of Magnificence).

[Omnisandro]

Skill-wise, you'll want Concentration and Spellcraft – plus maybe Knowledge (Religion). Also if you're a fighty type then a dex penalty = not good.

STR - 13 (for Power Attack)
DEX - 10
CON - 12
INT - 8
WIS - 17
CHA - 12

Increase Wisdom to 18 at level 4. Pick up a tome somewhere along the way if you want to get another point of Strength bonus. Cha of 12 + extra turning = 8 turns/day, enough for two Persistent Extended buffs active at a time. Nab a Nightstick plus enough items to get two more turn attempts and that doubles to four. Try to find a Cloak of Charisma (or better yet, Belt of Magnificence).


Awesome, thank you.
One thing came to me now...Weapon.
Since i'm going Sun/Planning, which weapon should i use? Morning star?

[Extra Anchovies]

Awesome, thank you.
One thing came to me now...Weapon.
Since i'm going Sun/Planning, which weapon should i use? Morning star?

Definitely. It's one of the best simple weapons, by virtue of it counting as two damage types.

[Divide by Zero]

Is that the case with the build i posted? :smallfrown:

Well, as written, it isn't actually legal (it admits as much in the Limitations section), but other than that, the only thing that really bugs me about it is that it implies that Radiant Servant of Pelor is super-awesome and necessary for Clericzilla. In reality, unless you're in an undead-heavy campaign, it's good but not spectacular (there are definitely other stronger cleric PrCs) and entirely unnecessary for the core of Clericzilla (which is really just DMM Persist + overpowered self-buffs).

[Omnisandro]

Well, as written, it isn't actually legal (it admits as much in the Limitations section), but other than that, the only thing that really bugs me about it is that it implies that Radiant Servant of Pelor is super-awesome and necessary for Clericzilla. In reality, unless you're in an undead-heavy campaign, it's good but not spectacular (there are definitely other stronger cleric PrCs) and entirely unnecessary for the core of Clericzilla (which is really just DMM Persist + overpowered self-buffs).

Interesting.
About Clericzilla, althrough he is super awesome with self-buffs....Is he good at buffing part members and healing them too?

[Starmage21]

Interesting.
About Clericzilla, althrough he is super awesome with self-buffs....Is he good at buffing part members and healing them too?

Absolutely! Thats why they probably recommend that PrC. You can insta-gib undead multiple times per day for one. But the other major abilities start with adding Empower Spell to every Healing spell you cast. Then later you can Empower or Maximize. Once you hit the capstone at 10th, you get Empowered AND Maximized on every healing spell you cast.

Other than that, use DMM: Persist to keep the Divine Trio up and win the game :D

[Ellowryn]

Just a note, to use DMM:Persist you need to spend 1 + total level adjustment of the metamagic feat to use it, so for Persist (a 6 level adjustment) you need 7 turn attempts per. I recommend starting with a 15 in wisdom and putting your level 4 stat adjustment into it as in order for the build to function you only need 19 wisdom by level 17 but you need as much charisma as you can squeeze out for DMM attempts. A reliquary holy symbol from magic item compendium will give you another 2 turn attempts for only 1,000gp so look to grab that asap.

[Omnisandro]

Just a note, to use DMM:Persist you need to spend 1 + total level adjustment of the metamagic feat to use it, so for Persist (a 6 level adjustment) you need 7 turn attempts per. I recommend starting with a 15 in wisdom and putting your level 4 stat adjustment into it as in order for the build to function you only need 19 wisdom by level 17 but you need as much charisma as you can squeeze out for DMM attempts. A reliquary holy symbol from magic item compendium will give you another 2 turn attempts for only 1,000gp so look to grab that asap.

Could you give me a more elaborate explanation of that rule, please?
Give me a scenario of the play happening.

[Extra Anchovies]

Could you give me a more elaborate explanation of that rule, please?
Give me a scenario of the play happening.

Jozan the 12th-level cleric wants to Persist some buffs. He has a Charisma of 14, the Extra Turning feat, a Reliquiary Holy Symbol, and a Nightstick, for a total of (3+2+4+1+4)= 14 turn attempts. So, the day before he goes adventuring, he casts Extended Divine Power from a fifth-level slot, and augments it using Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) by spending seven turning attempts (6 from persistent's spell level adjustment, plus 1 for divine metamagic). The spell's duration is 24*2=48 hours. He then casts Extended Recitation as another fifth-level spell, and persists that using seven more turn attempts.

The next day, before the party sets out to go adventuring, Jozan still has Divine Favor and Recitation active. He then uses his fourteen turning attempts for the new day to cast Extended Righteous Might as a sixth-level slot, apply Persistent Spell to it using DMM, and then doing the same with Extended Mass Lesser Vigor as a fourth-level slot. Now he has a BAB of +12/+7/+2, a +3 luck bonus to AC, attack rolls, and saves, a total of +10 to Strength and +2 to Constitution, +2 natural armor, fast healing 1, and DR 6/evil. His allies also have fast healing 1, and a +2 luck bonus to AC, attacks, and saves.

He has also used up all of his daily turning attempts. Mialee criticizes him for this, asking him what he'll do if they encounter undead, to which Jozan responds with a sly grin. Later that day, the meet a powerful vampire lord, and Jozan crushes him to a pulp in two rounds by with his mace (+20/+15/+10 to hit, damage 2d6+6), while shrugging off the vampire's attacks due to his increase AC, his damage reduction, and the fast healing. Krusk is overcome with jealousy and starts a Tumblr so he can anonymously vent to teenagers online.

[Omnisandro]

Jozan the 12th-level cleric wants to Persist some buffs. He has a Charisma of 14, the Extra Turning feat, a Reliquiary Holy Symbol, and a Nightstick, for a total of (3+2+4+1+4)= 14 turn attempts. So, the day before he goes adventuring, he casts Extended Divine Power from a fifth-level slot, and augments it using Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) by spending seven turning attempts (6 from persistent's spell level adjustment, plus 1 for divine metamagic). The spell's duration is 24*2=48 hours. He then casts Extended Recitation as another fifth-level spell, and persists that using seven more turn attempts.

The next day, before the party sets out to go adventuring, Jozan still has Divine Favor and Recitation active. He then uses his fourteen turning attempts for the new day to cast Extended Righteous Might as a sixth-level slot, apply Persistent Spell to it using DMM, and then doing the same with Extended Mass Lesser Vigor as a fourth-level slot. Now he has a BAB of +12/+7/+2, a +3 luck bonus to AC, attack rolls, and saves, a total of +10 to Strength and +2 to Constitution, +2 natural armor, fast healing 1, and DR 6/evil. His allies also have fast healing 1, and a +2 luck bonus to AC, attacks, and saves.

He has also used up all of his daily turning attempts. Mialee criticizes him for this, asking him what he'll do if they encounter undead, to which Jozan responds with a sly grin. Later that day, the meet a powerful vampire lord, and Jozan crushes him to a pulp in two rounds by with his mace (+20/+15/+10 to hit, damage 2d6+6), while shrugging off the vampire's attacks due to his increase AC, his damage reduction, and the fast healing. Krusk is overcome with jealousy and starts a Tumblr so he can anonymously vent to teenagers online.


Oh sweet jesus, i can feel the tears of the Warrior already.:smalltongue:

[Omnisandro]

Guys, i have it all figured out except for Race choice.

Human ( Extra Turning ) or Lesser Aasimar ( Ability bonuses )

[Extra Anchovies]

Guys, i have it all figured out except for Race choice.

Human ( Extra Turning ) or Lesser Aasimar ( Ability bonuses )

Go with Human for Extra Turning. Remember, every full seven turn attempts you have you can have two more persistent-extended buffs up. Extra Turning + Cha modifier of 2 or higher + nightstick + reliquary holy symbol = four buffs exactly, and is very easily achievable. +2 Wisdom is maybe one bonus spell (and you can get by without the increase to save, and +2 Charisma is only one more turning attempt.

[Omnisandro]

Go with Human for Extra Turning. Remember, every full seven turn attempts you have you can have two more persistent-extended buffs up. Extra Turning + Cha modifier of 2 or higher + nightstick + reliquary holy symbol = four buffs exactly, and is very easily achievable. +2 Wisdom is maybe one bonus spell (and you can get by without the increase to save, and +2 Charisma is only one more turning attempt.


So, somenthing like this to start?

STR= 14
DEX= 10
CON= 12
INT= 8
WIS= 15 ( 16 at level 4 )
CHA= 15


Also, i lose the spell per day charge normally while using DMM and paying with turns, right?

[Extra Anchovies]

So, somenthing like this to start?

STR= 14
DEX= 10
CON= 12
INT= 8
WIS= 15 ( 16 at level 4 )
CHA= 15


Also, i lose the spell per day charge normally while using DMM and paying with turns, right?

You don't need to 15 in Charisma; odd scores don't help much, your ability increases will be going into Wisdom, and you can always pick up a Cloak of Charisma or Belt of Magnificence. I would suggest:

STR 12
DEX 10
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 14

Str doesn't need to be super high; you'll be getting +10 from buffs (+6 enhancement from Divine Power, +4 size from Righteous Might). Without the Int penalty you can max ranks in Concentration and Spellcraft while having a few on the side for other skills (Knowledge [Relgion] or something). If you don't care about skill points, I would recommend changing Int to 8 and Con to 14.

[Omnisandro]

You don't need to 15 in Charisma; odd scores don't help much, your ability increases will be going into Wisdom, and you can always pick up a Cloak of Charisma or Belt of Magnificence. I would suggest:

STR 12
DEX 10
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 14

Str doesn't need to be super high; you'll be getting +10 from buffs (+6 enhancement from Divine Power, +4 size from Righteous Might). Without the Int penalty you can max ranks in Concentration and Spellcraft while having a few on the side for other skills (Knowledge [Relgion] or something). If you don't care about skill points, I would recommend changing Int to 8 and Con to 14.

I need 13 ST for Power Attack through

[Extra Anchovies]

I need 13 ST for Power Attack through

Ah yes, I keep forgetting that prerequisite. Str 13, Int 9, maybe? Then if you find later on that you want skill points, you can increase Int, and if you want more fighty-fighty stuff, you can increase Str.

[Eonir]

Ah yes, I keep forgetting that prerequisite. Str 13, Int 9, maybe? Then if you find later on that you want skill points, you can increase Int, and if you want more fighty-fighty stuff, you can increase Str.

Zenthryi (MM2) are another Planetouched race who can be "lesser". They are +2 str, wis, dex, -2 cha. Great cleric race.

The Planetouched Handbook (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6992.0) if you're curious.

[Omnisandro]

Zenthryi (MM2) are another Planetouched race who can be "lesser". They are +2 str, wis, dex, -2 cha. Great cleric race.

The Planetouched Handbook (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6992.0) if you're curious.

Cannot use that book.
Even if i could, i would not be able to roleplay that race.

[Eonir]

Cannot use that book.
Even if i could, i would not be able to roleplay that race.

Oh my bad. This is probably for the better anyways, Zenythri are exceptionally powerful.

[Omnisandro]

Oh my bad. This is probably for the better anyways, Zenythri are exceptionally powerful.

Yes, even i can tell bonus to 3 attributes is too much.
Still, charisma penalty would not be optimal for my build.

[Gullintanni]

I need 13 ST for Power Attack through

STR 14
DEX 10
CON 12
INT 8
WIS 16
CHA 14

or

STR 14
DEX 8
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 16
CHA 14

...bonuses to AC are pretty easy to come by for a DMM cleric, so low dex shouldn't be an issue. I'd pick one of those as my stat array. Matter of preference at this point.

[Omnisandro]

STR 14
DEX 10
CON 12
INT 8
WIS 16
CHA 14

or

STR 14
DEX 8
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 16
CHA 14

...bonuses to AC are pretty easy to come by for a DMM cleric, so low dex shouldn't be an issue. I'd pick one of those as my stat array. Matter of preference at this point.

Yeah, i'm going with the first one already.
We got a Bard, so skills wont be a problem.