The Flash on CW

[BWR]

Eh, I thought it was OK. Wells continues to be my favorite character of the series. Best actor, best lines, best on-screen presence, best everything. The show will honestly lose a lot of its draw for me if/when he finally goes.

[Zmeoaice]

I'm glad Iris hasn't admitted her feelings, because she and Barry make an awful couple. I hope Reverse-Flash succeeds in killing her this time. Only way their relationship will be interesting.

[The New Bruceski]

Gotta love the trailer for next week saying "here's a villain who's all trick and no joke." Just the teeniest bit of metahumor there.

[Hopeless]

Just a thought
what if Eddie kills Wells and dons his suit becoming the Reverse Flash only to be killed by the Flash and Eddie's suit eventually passes into Eobard's hands who discovers he can tap into the speed force absorbed by the suit?

He learns Barry kills the Reverse Flash and assumes that he will be killed unless he kills Barry first, but thwarted in his attempt on Barry he accidentally depowers himself and his time machine is rendered unable to return to his own time.

He uses the information to discover a suitable cover identity using the resources left available to assume Wells identity having secretly buried the original Wells who died in the car crash along with his wife and develops the means to restore his powers.

However at some point he will try and reveal himself to Eddie who promptly kills him taking the suit and once he realises it grants him his powers becomes what is assumed to be the original Reverse Flash sealing the paradoxical time loop explaining where the suit came from, how Eddie got his powers and through him how Eobard eventually gains his and makes the trip into the past.

Would it be a shock if someone helped Barry travel to the past to help protect himself?

Eobard will naturally assumed Barry can do that eventually and everyone probably assumes he did but what if he had help and maybe Rip Hunter I think he's called disables Eobard's time ship?

Okay its far fetched but I thought it was worth jotting down just in case!:smallredface:

[Starbuck_II]

It's that time again.

So the Duo turns into a Trio. Very interested in the mechanics behind the Midas gun.

Really nice to know there are repercussions for screwing up the timeline. Though to be fair to Barry, he was facing an impossible choice either way it went.

But as it stands, overall progress. Cisco still lives, the usual CW the-love-girl-I-can't-have angst is still there, and one of Barry's enemies knows his identity, which played out nicely imo; and most importantly, Barry is now highly suspicious of Wells.

Also thought the scene in the force field room was a nice touch.

I still think that this happened regardless of the time travel, but the weather mage dude was a bigger issue so no one knew about it.

[TheOldCrow]

I still think that this happened regardless of the time travel, but the weather mage dude was a bigger issue so no one knew about it.

Instead of being kidnapped, Cisco would be dead. So he wouldn't build the guns for Cold and Heatwave and Golden Glider.

[TheEmerged]

Neat idea I had this morning. Probably not true but...

\queues up "Wouldn't it be nice if..."

...the Trickster is the CW-verse version of the Psycho-Pirate in the aftermath of Crisis. That is, the world has changed and he's the only one that remembers how it was before.

Think about it for a moment. The 90's series happened - the Trickster was defeated by Flash (Barry Allen) and a female detective, tried and jailed, just as shown in the 90's series. But a time crisis happened... and now the Flash is some young guy just starting his career in late 2014. The world believes he was just defeated by that gumshoe detective... but the Trickster KNOWS it was the Flash - the *real* Flash, not this wet-behind-the-ears snotfaced kid that belongs in short pants.

Except, the Trickster being the Trickster, the rest of the world assumes he's just nuts.

And maybe he is...

Idle speculation\wishing aside, I for one am hoping Hamil isn't the only "returning" character next episode.

[Metahuman1]

Oh, god, these last two eps physically hurt.

So, we killed Metamorpho before he could become Metamorpho. Nice.

Ya know, it's sad when I honestly think Iris was better written back in the 1960's then she is now.

Cold continues to baffle me in that why have the cops not just gotten a sniper on him already and had done with it?

Is that real permanent gold she's shooting out of that gun? If so, *Headdesk.*.

And that deal was so, so, so, STUPID! WHY?! Leave him there, sweep the city at super speed, and call STAR labs and Felicity over in Starling/Star/what-ever city and get rid of any copys of that information he could possibly have. Or hell, better still, alter it and release it so it says the Flash is Eddie or the Police Captain or someone who can 100% be verified NOT to be the Flash so as to discredit Cold if he ever DOES claim it's Barry.

Yeah, Eddie, way to go there champ, Deck a long established CSI with no combat capacity what so ever in the face in front of like thirty people and probably cameras that can be made to be produced as Evidence if he decides he didn't like getting slugged in the face. Way to go big man, way to go. Hell, not like the mob, who's illegal activity's here can't necessarily be proven in court of law, wouldn't want to use that later as leverage on you or something even if Barry does opt to just take it. :smallsigh:





You know, I almost hope they DO do Crisis on Infinite Earths/Flashpoint, just to reset this entire shared Universe and get all the BS out of the equation.

[Zmeoaice]

So, we killed Metamorpho before he could become Metamorpho. Nice.

lol... wut. The only character who died was the OC Mason Bridge. Rex Mason hasn't appeared yet. I find it hard to believe you could have confused the two.



And that deal was so, so, so, STUPID! WHY?! Leave him there, sweep the city at super speed, and call STAR labs and Felicity over in Starling/Star/what-ever city and get rid of any copys of that information he could possibly have.

He's fast, but he's not that fast.

[Metahuman1]

Not fast enough to make a couple of calls to the best computer experts in universe so far and then get where they tell him to go before Cold can? Not seeing it.

[Seerow]

Oh, god, these last two eps physically hurt.

So, we killed Metamorpho before he could become Metamorpho. Nice.

Ya know, it's sad when I honestly think Iris was better written back in the 1960's then she is now.

Cold continues to baffle me in that why have the cops not just gotten a sniper on him already and had done with it?

Is that real permanent gold she's shooting out of that gun? If so, *Headdesk.*.

And that deal was so, so, so, STUPID! WHY?! Leave him there, sweep the city at super speed, and call STAR labs and Felicity over in Starling/Star/what-ever city and get rid of any copys of that information he could possibly have. Or hell, better still, alter it and release it so it says the Flash is Eddie or the Police Captain or someone who can 100% be verified NOT to be the Flash so as to discredit Cold if he ever DOES claim it's Barry.

Yeah, Eddie, way to go there champ, Deck a long established CSI with no combat capacity what so ever in the face in front of like thirty people and probably cameras that can be made to be produced as Evidence if he decides he didn't like getting slugged in the face. Way to go big man, way to go. Hell, not like the mob, who's illegal activity's here can't necessarily be proven in court of law, wouldn't want to use that later as leverage on you or something even if Barry does opt to just take it. :smallsigh:





You know, I almost hope they DO do Crisis on Infinite Earths/Flashpoint, just to reset this entire shared Universe and get all the BS out of the equation.


Honestly, this episode had some issues, but I could still enjoy watching it despite those issues. Unlike the previous episode which had me raging at the TV out loud for most of the episode about how stupid everything was.


Also I was scared to death that Cisco was about to get murdered by Wells again when they went down into the chamber, for what it's worth.

[TheOldCrow]

And that deal was so, so, so, STUPID! WHY?! Leave him there, sweep the city at super speed, and call STAR labs and Felicity over in Starling/Star/what-ever city and get rid of any copys of that information he could possibly have. Or hell, better still, alter it and release it so it says the Flash is Eddie or the Police Captain or someone who can 100% be verified NOT to be the Flash so as to discredit Cold if he ever DOES claim it's Barry.

Your last solution is clever, I like it.

Barry could have also flooded the city with false Flash outings, tens or hundreds of new "true" identities exposed every day; Cold's info would have gotten buried in the avalanche.

[Metahuman1]

Take it a step further. Make twenty or thirty so of them be "From Cold." Including Wells, Joe, Iris, Eddy, Ronnie, Dr. Ronnie fuses with, Reporters we know, the captain, the captain's boyfriend, Ray Palmer and Oliver Queen just for chuckles, and like, five or ten dead guys, maybe including Elvis or something. Utterly obliterate not just his credibility, but the credibility of ANYONE ever accusing anyone relevant of being in anyway involved with The Flash in the future short of having video.

[Clertar]

Take it a step further. Make twenty or thirty so of them be "From Cold." Including Wells, Joe, Iris, Eddy, Ronnie, Dr. Ronnie fuses with, Reporters we know, the captain, the captain's boyfriend, Ray Palmer and Oliver Queen just for chuckles, and like, five or ten dead guys, maybe including Elvis or something. Utterly obliterate not just his credibility, but the credibility of ANYONE ever accusing anyone relevant of being in anyway involved with The Flash in the future short of having video.

That's the problem of writing a clever and cunnning character with the approach of a ten-year old: both he and the rest of the cast end up coming across as retarded.


I liked how the big mafia in the city could be overthrown by two dudes doing a bad impression of a bar brawl.
http://i.imgur.com/iWKad22b.jpg

[Jayngfet]

Not fast enough to make a couple of calls to the best computer experts in universe so far and then get where they tell him to go before Cold can? Not seeing it.

It can still take them days or weeks to track them and Barry could have minutes. Cold is connecting the data via a computer that's presumably either remote access or has one of the other two guarding it. They have no idea what that computer is like or where it could possibly be, or if it's just being uploaded via wherever from a phone. Given which, they're probably using disposables without convenient international calls and the computer may not even be connected to a network until the minute they want to upload, that's a whole lot of variables nobody can be expected to deal with.

Because, and this is a thing people are shocked about far more often than they should, hiding data is easy. Felicity mostly catches cheap thugs who can barely work an iphone. Just getting her hands on Komodo was explicitly pure luck and she wasn't exactly able to just hack her way into beating Slade or Merlyn. All it takes is 30 seconds connected to the internet for them to send off a bunch of emails written ahead of time to the police, news, military, and whoever else might listen and the jig is up. For all they know those emails could just be plugged in from a thumb drive from elsewhere.

Snart is a fast adapting career criminal who knows his enemy hangs out around tech geeks and did from day one. The odds of him making that kind of screwup are really low. This of course presuming that Felicity is even free given she's already double booked without him with two other guys, and taking on a fourth spot with whoever else is coming in the next show(fifth? She may be in Vixen, I haven't seen it).


That's the problem of writing a clever and cunnning character with the approach of a ten-year old: both he and the rest of the cast end up coming across as retarded.


I liked how the big mafia in the city could be overthrown by two dudes doing a bad impression of a bar brawl.
http://i.imgur.com/iWKad22b.jpg

Those guys on the other hand? American midwest criminals. They aren't exactly a big deal given they probably have no human trafficking or drugs of note, not being on a boarder or coast or even a real hub city. Central City has pretty much been defined as a place nothing happens before now and their operations are going to be nowhere near as advanced as whatever Brickwell is doing in Starling.

[comicshorse]

This of course presuming that Felicity is even free given she's already double booked without him with two other guys, and taking on a fourth spot with whoever else is coming in the next show(fifth? She may be in Vixen, I haven't seen it).


Are you turning her into Oracle ?

[BWR]

Are you turning her into Oracle ?

It would be a welcome turn for her character, now that she's basically been reduced to being the sniffling, teary-eyed dame.

[TheEmerged]

Come on, we KNEW there was going to be at least one "father" joke.

I like that we've seen the actual battle with the Reverse Flash now. I was hoping for more cameos from the original series, but it was still good.

So, RF replaced Wells. Makes sense, really, easier to come in with the backstory being a real thing.

Eddie being brought into the pack? THAT was a surprise.

[Pex]

"I am your father."

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHA

[Flickerdart]

Well, that episode was a lot less stupid than the previous one, to the point where "comic book logic" actually worked as an excuse again.
The Trickster works way better than Cold, since the threat he represents is entirely on a strategic level. Once the Flash gets him into a physical confrontation, it's over, as it should be. I'm especially glad they didn't stress the knife trap too much - any trap like it shouldn't be a problem for Barry, since being fast enough is his entire deal.

Also I don't think dropping a bunch of knives on someone is enough to kill them, since they are relatively light, not balanced for that sort of thing, and not really meant to punch through bone. But that's besides the point.

[BWR]

"I am your father."

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHA

The rest of the episode was pretty good. Even if it weren't, this line alone would have made everything worthwhile.

[Antonok]

Also I don't think dropping a bunch of knives on someone is enough to kill them, since they are relatively light, not balanced for that sort of thing, and not really meant to punch through bone. But that's besides the point.[/SPOILER]

Don't have to straight kill them. Get enough knives stuck in them and no one finds them fast enough, the person bleeds to death. Slow, semi painful death.

[Flickerdart]

Don't have to straight kill them. Get enough knives stuck in them and no one finds them fast enough, the person bleeds to death. Slow, semi painful death.

It was triggered by opening the door to the room - so the victim would be in plain view of the person triggering the trap.

[TheEmerged]

What, Trickster, couldn't find a proper anvil? I am disappoint... :smallyuk:

[Cheesegear]

Wells' sequence makes me think that somebody has been watching Fringe.

Also, is it just me, but does every establishing shot of STAR Labs have it repaired just a little bit more in each episode?

[themaque]

It was triggered by opening the door to the room - so the victim would be in plain view of the person triggering the trap.

Could easily be enough to maim or kill depending on all sorts of random effects. It was an FU trap not a serious deathtrap.

[Seerow]

The only thing that threw me off with this episode was it turned out that the Trickster was telling the truth about what poison he used.

After thoroughly establishing the MO of lying outrageously to pull some sleight of hand trick, the second Star Labs started working on synthesizing an antidote based off what Trickster said had me saying "oh no oh no this is going to end really badly".

I mean, I'm glad it didn't because that would have been a lot of dead people. But it still totally threw me.


Rest of the episode was brilliant. Though the Flash being so interested in Henry Allen should raise a few questions from the people who were there for the showdown.

[Pex]

The rest of the episode was pretty good. Even if it weren't, this line alone would have made everything worthwhile.

Also obligatory was a scene with Mark Hamill and John Wesley Shipp together.

Everyone familiar with the previous "Flash" series knows this episode was one big shout out, including lines such as Trickster causing trouble 20 years ago though the series was 25 years ago but still. (Wow, that long ago? I feel old. :smallsmile:)

Much appreciated, and I'm still thrilled they purposely got John Wesley Shipp to play Barry's father. They honor the previous show's memory. It does help me to enjoy this series even more than I would have.

[Nai_Calus]

"I am your father."

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHA

Me and my dad both died at that line. This show has officially won everything for all time.

I know nothing about the Flash outside of this show so Hamill's character just reminded me of the Joker, but that's OK because Hamill!Joker is best Joker.

[Cheesegear]

Hamill's character just reminded me of the Joker, but that's OK because Hamill!Joker is best Joker.

The irony of your statement is that Hamill!Joker wouldn't exist if it weren't for his Trickster.

[themaque]

The irony of your statement is that Hamill!Joker wouldn't exist if it weren't for his Trickster.

Not to mention Harley Quinn who was obviously heavily influenced by Prank from the second Trickster episode.

Edited to correct misnamed character. brought to my attention by TheEmerged

[TheEmerged]

Not to mention Harley Quinn who was obviously heavily influenced by Trick* from the second Trickster episode.

The character's name was Prank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corinne_Bohrer), for the record.

[themaque]

Okay, looking at the REST OF THE SEASON trailer that they showed the other night... I have a question/suggestion

Clancy Brown as Solomon Grundy. We see him possibly die with Grodd, and in the trailer you see a deathly white Clancy Brown walking down a hallway.

Switch up a forgettable hulking monstrosity, The General, for another more memorable one?

[Zmeoaice]

Somethings going on with the general.

Anyhow I hope the Flash movie doesn't use any major villains. I know Arrow isn't allowed to have Deadshot appear because of the Suicide Squad film.

I can only pray that Dawn of Justice or subsequent films bomb so the DCCU ends so the live action shows won't be affected. Plus the movie's probably won't be that good anyways

[Dragonexx]

That reminds me. Do we have an Arrow thread?

[Ranxerox]

Somethings going on with the general.

Anyhow I hope the Flash movie doesn't use any major villains. I know Arrow isn't allowed to have Deadshot appear because of the Suicide Squad film.

I can only pray that Dawn of Justice or subsequent films bomb so the DCCU ends so the live action shows won't be affected. Plus the movie's probably won't be that good anyways

What do you mean? Deadshot was in last weeks Arrow.

[Flickerdart]

That reminds me. Do we have an Arrow thread?
We did. It died. Given that nobody noticed, I think it's for the best.

[huttj509]

What do you mean? Deadshot was in last weeks Arrow.

Allegedly the reason he was killed off was in part so there wouldn't be confusion between Arrow Deadshot and the upcoming (August 2016) Suicide Squad separate continuity Deadshot.

[Dragonexx]

Might as well just make this thread an Arrow thread as well, seeing as they're in the same universe.

[Ranxerox]

Allegedly the reason he was killed off was in part so there wouldn't be confusion between Arrow Deadshot and the upcoming (August 2016) Suicide Squad separate continuity Deadshot.

Really? I just assumed that was a comic book death and that he would be back. After all, we only have Floyd's word for it that there wasn't a way off the roof, and since it was in a hostile country it would be difficult to nigh impossible for Waller check the rubble for his remains. So all Deadshot would need to do is cut his internal tracker and get off the roof double time, and he could be free of the squad.

[otakuryoga]

just got around to watching the last episode.....


"I am your father."

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHA

yeah, that pretty much killed me
had to stop the playback for a couple minutes or so until i could control myself

[Zmeoaice]

Really? I just assumed that was a comic book death and that he would be back. After all, we only have Floyd's word for it that there wasn't a way off the roof, and since it was in a hostile country it would be difficult to nigh impossible for Waller check the rubble for his remains. So all Deadshot would need to do is cut his internal tracker and get off the roof double time, and he could be free of the squad.

Yeah, Deadshot died what twice already?

Whether they killed him and wanted to bring him back or killed him because WB told them to, he's not coming back on the show. Well unless Suicide Squad bombs, and I hope it and all other DCCU film does for a variety of reasons, the embargo being one of them.

[Ranxerox]

Yeah, Deadshot died what twice already?

Whether they killed him and wanted to bring him back or killed him because WB told them to, he's not coming back on the show. Well unless Suicide Squad bombs, and I hope it and all other DCCU film does for a variety of reasons, the embargo being one of them.

Is this official or just a rumor?

[Zmeoaice]

"Unfortunately, Deadshot is off the table for the nonce"

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/post/114732405684/i-seriously-think-your-casting-is-the-best-out

I'm guessing this means it's because DC is using him in the show, since they did it before with the Bat-Embargo. It's the reason why 'the Batman' wasn't allowed to use Scarecrow, Ra's Al Ghul, and Two-Face, and why Justice League Unlimited could only use minor batman villains.

[Ranxerox]

Darn. :frown:




* Thanks for the reply, though.

[LaZodiac]

What channel and time is this usually on? I've been following Agents of Shield but I recently got into the show due to watching it with my Dad (specifically the last three episodes). I kinda want to watch both in the same day if I can, don't have any recording devices.

[Seerow]

What channel and time is this usually on? I've been following Agents of Shield but I recently got into the show due to watching it with my Dad (specifically the last three episodes). I kinda want to watch both in the same day if I can, don't have any recording devices.

Usually on the CW on Tuesdays at 8:00 (at least for me on EST, not sure if they air at different times in other time zones).


Speaking of no new episode this week for either Flash or Arrow. I am sad.

[thorgrim29]

Am I the only one who can't get over how incredibly goofy "To everyone else, I'm an ordinary forensic scientist" sounds?

[Seerow]

Am I the only one who can't get over how incredibly goofy "To everyone else, I'm an ordinary forensic scientist" sounds?

Nope, that strikes me as weird every time too. Forensic Scientists are not in the category of what we normally consider "ordinary" people.

[LaZodiac]

Speaking of no new episode this week for either Flash or Arrow. I am sad.

Oh, that would explain why I was only finding reruns today. Thanks Seerow :smallbiggrin:

[Pex]

Nope, that strikes me as weird every time too. Forensic Scientists are not in the category of what we normally consider "ordinary" people.

From Quincy to Mac Taylor to Barry Allen.
:smallsmile:

[Hopeless]

From Quincy to Mac Taylor to Barry Allen.
:smallsmile:

And Ducky, Abby from NCIS and the lady from NCIS New Orleans whose played by someone who voiced Amanda Waller...

Remembering the episode where DiNozzo was framed by Abby's new (back then)assistant and they rushed thinking she was in trouble once they realised it was him only to discover maybe they should rescue him from her!:biggrin:

NCIS the only series where you can absolutely use a pic Mark Harmon as Gibbs and use that to replace Gandalf confronting the Balrog and you'd feel sorry for the Balrog!:smallwink:

Sorry back to the thread... does this mean that when Alternate Future Barry returned to his Future he either became the lightning that struck the Flash TV Series Barry?

[tomandtish]

Usually on the CW on Tuesdays at 8:00 (at least for me on EST, not sure if they air at different times in other time zones).


Speaking of no new episode this week for either Flash or Arrow. I am sad.

The default is usually 8:00pm Eastern, 7:00pm Central. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Pacific actually push back to match Eastern on anything that isn't a live broadcast? (So 8:00pm Pacific)? I have no clue about Mountain. Or Arizona (which if memory serves does not observe daylight savings).

[Soepvork]

Maybe I missed it, but what happened to the Flash in the flashback?

[Seerow]

holy crap cisco remembers! He can remember!

[LaZodiac]

Finally saw the episode!

Interesting that they brought Atom into this. I think it's kind of silly that they made him an Ironman type guy, but it helps differentiate from Antman so I think that's okay.

Sisco having time travel visions is pretty dang awesome and I wonder where that'll lead. The bee lady was also pretty cool. I'll admit I don't know much about The Flash so I don't know what villain she's referencing. I think there were a few references to Arrow in this episode but I don't care because Arrow is bad and Flash is good.

I think it's pretty obvious what Welles/NotWelles/Reverse Flash is training the Flash up for (he wants to take his speed force energy to power his own suit so he can continue being Reverse Flash). But I find it really interesting that our heroes don't realize this.

...yes I know what the Speed Force is I am the worst fan.

Sorry if this is a bit rambly I'm writing my thoughts out as I watch to just sort of touch all the bases, since I came into this series like...three episodes ago? So I want to make sure I'm understanding all the beats and stuff.

Oh the red dress lady is from Arrow. Okay.

The talking about how being a crime scene investigator and stuff ****ing sucks because you see corpses almost every day is REALLY good, holy crap.

HAhaha, "do I have to buzz in". And then we get her villain name, Bug Eyed Bandit.

Man, it REALLY sucks how all this cool canon with good characters and fun plots is going to be erased by a ****ty garbage movie.

HAH. Sting of betrayal.

Man...this show is really good. Episode had a lot of good fake outs, and lots of building up to some pretty heavy stuff in the future.

Black love interest girl seems like kind of a jerk though.

[BWR]

Finally saw the episode!

Interesting that they brought Atom into this. I think it's kind of silly that they made him an Ironman type guy, but it helps differentiate from Antman so I think that's okay.

I love Ray. I hope he gets a spin-off series or at least is a fixed feature of both Arrow and Flash from now on. But they did hint at his shrinking (he said something about the trick being to go smaller). I don't really see why being Iron Man-lite is better than being confused with Ant-Man (and the Atom predates them both).

[TheEmerged]

So, I *totally* didn't notice something until last night's episode.

Well's rival, the head of Mecury tech? That's the actress for Tina from the original series. In my defense I hadn't rewatched the original series before her first appearance so I have an excuse.

Once again, the whole "justice for my father" juxtaposition with "justice for the original series" comes through.

I was under the impression the "team" spinoff that Ray is going to be on was already officially announced?

[The New Bruceski]

So, I *totally* didn't notice something until last night's episode.

Well's rival, the head of Mecury tech? That's the actress for Tina from the original series. In my defense I hadn't rewatched the original series before her first appearance so I have an excuse.

Once again, the whole "justice for my father" juxtaposition with "justice for the original series" comes through.

I was under the impression the "team" spinoff that Ray is going to be on was already officially announced?

Also if you missed it, in the Trickster episode (along with the obvious recurring character of course) Mayor Bellows was played by Vito D'Ambrosio (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0195101/), who was only Officer Bellows back in 1990.

[Antonok]

Not Flash, but cross over related.

So it seems Arrow just had a meta human, that wasn't in Central City during the particle accelerator test.

Lot that the flash (and arrow) can do with this. Just hope they actually do do something with it.

[TheEmerged]

Also if you missed it, in the Trickster episode (along with the obvious recurring character of course) Mayor Bellows was played by Vito D'Ambrosio (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0195101/), who was only Officer Bellows back in 1990.

Did NOT notice that either, thanks!

[Seerow]

Not Flash, but cross over related.

So it seems Arrow just had a meta human, that wasn't in Central City during the particle accelerator test.

Lot that the flash (and arrow) can do with this. Just hope they actually do do something with it.

I suspect that this is how the show runners are going to justify the new spinoff show, where Ray and Firestorm team up to go fight metahumans popping up in places the Flash can't easily reach.

Though I suppose it could also be working to foreshadow metahumans popping up as Arrow villains

[Soepvork]

"It's a bird." "No, it's a plane!"

Anyone else felt like facepalming (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0348150/?ref_=nv_sr_1) when they said that?

[Pex]

"It's a bird." "No, it's a plane!"

Anyone else felt like facepalming (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0348150/?ref_=nv_sr_1) when they said that?

Sometimes you get "I am your father" for hysterical laughter of glee. Other times you get that.

[Metahuman1]

"It's a bird." "No, it's a plane!"

Anyone else felt like facepalming (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0348150/?ref_=nv_sr_1) when they said that?

I kinda wanted to punch my TV at that bit. It just REEKED of David Goyer and Geoff Johns wanting to insult the fanbase to me.


Edit:

Also:

Freaking Iris. Just, *%(!ing Iris. How do you write a character so poorly that she makes a Lois Lane clone from the 1960's look good by comparison?!!!!!

*Headdesk.*

[Jayngfet]

I kinda wanted to punch my TV at that bit. It just REEKED of David Goyer and Geoff Johns wanting to insult the fanbase to me.



I'm the first one to shake my fist at Johns but it felt a bit more playful to me.

I mean you have a guy who played Superman running around in bright primary colors. May as well have fun with it.

[The New Bruceski]

This summer... you will believe a billionaire can be a huge dork.

[Jayngfet]

Freaking Iris. Just, *%(!ing Iris. How do you write a character so poorly that she makes a Lois Lane clone from the 1960's look good by comparison?!!!!!

*Headdesk.*

She's a journalist who can't even get taken seriously at work. She's trained to handle and deal with heavy cases like this. Her entire career involves cases involving this specific person right now. Eddie is sabotaging her job and treating her like a child. Because her father demands to still treat her like a child.

It's not even that The Flash is a particularly dangerous subject to write on in and of himself. He's a dude in a red suit who runs fast. He spent the night catching people with no casualties and no repercussions and they had a blast. The report wouldn't have read that differently from any other report on a police bust except 'oh, and this guy helped' and would have probably been just the thing she needed to get taken seriously as a journalist.

If she's acting pissy, it's because everyone else is having a great time naming weird villains and catching bad guys, but she never gets invited.

[Soepvork]

Sometimes you get "I am your father" for hysterical laughter of glee. Other times you get that.

To be fair, I groaned a bit at the 'I am your father' comment as well. Maybe I am not quite the type of audience the writers had in mind....

[TheOldCrow]

She's a journalist who can't even get taken seriously at work. She's trained to handle and deal with heavy cases like this. Her entire career involves cases involving this specific person right now. Eddie is sabotaging her job and treating her like a child. Because her father demands to still treat her like a child.

It's not even that The Flash is a particularly dangerous subject to write on in and of himself. He's a dude in a red suit who runs fast. He spent the night catching people with no casualties and no repercussions and they had a blast. The report wouldn't have read that differently from any other report on a police bust except 'oh, and this guy helped' and would have probably been just the thing she needed to get taken seriously as a journalist.

If she's acting pissy, it's because everyone else is having a great time naming weird villains and catching bad guys, but she never gets invited.

I think you put your finger on it: In a show that is so much fun to watch, that does not fear to embrace being comicbooky or using cheesy dialogue, the Iris situation is just no fun at all. Joes treats Iris like a stupid child, Barry does the same with Joe's encouragement all the while claiming she's his best friend while not treating her like a best friend, and now they've dragged Eddie into it over his protestations, Barry goes to Iris and outright lies to her about why Eddie's being secretive, and Eddie gets to suffer Iris's wrath instead of the more deserving Joe and Barry. Their excuse that they are protecting her makes not sense-- it's the villain who needs to not know who the Flash is and that Iris has a connection to him to place Iris in danger. They could use the excuse that she's a reporter now, but the show hasn't bothered with that tack or made her much of a reporter yet.

I thought this past episode might be going for some sort of resolution to this finally, since they dialed up the ridiculousness of it. But instead I feel they brought it to an even more unfun place.

[TheEmerged]

I kinda wanted to punch my TV at that bit. It just REEKED of David Goyer and Geoff Johns wanting to insult the fanbase to me.




I for one didn't feel insulted, I thought it fell under the "cute & inevitable joke they made sooner rather than later" myself.

[Antonok]

It's that time again! Ahhh love that new episode smell.

Wow, okay.
So they found the body of the real Harrison Wells and Eobard's hidey hole.

One thing I noticed, the date on the article Gideon was showing was dated 2024... In Out of Time (the one where Eobard kills Cisco), doesn't Eobard say Cisco has been dead for decades?

Also, can we just officially incorporate The Arrow into this thread too? There is a crap load of crossovers going on.

[LaZodiac]

It's that time again! Ahhh love that new episode smell.

Wow, okay.
So they found the body of the real Harrison Wells and Eobard's hidey hole.

One thing I noticed, the date on the article Gideon was showing was dated 2024... In Out of Time (the one where Eobard kills Cisco), doesn't Eobard say Cisco has been dead for decades?

Also, can we just officially incorporate The Arrow into this thread too? There is a crap load of crossovers going on.


I'm only against including The Arrow here because it's bad and it really does seem like no one cares, to which I'm sorry if you're a fan. I'd be okay with it that bit aside, more conversation is good!

I like the idea that they told The Every Man his name and he liked it. I wonder if the fake Welles took inspiration from The Every Man when making his weird "replace all your blood with my blood so I can become you" device.

[TheEmerged]

RE: Including Arrow & upcoming spinoff series. Meh, I have no problem with treating this as a "DC on CW" thread. I'm working my way through Arrow Season 2 right now myself, did Season 3 take a turn for the worse or something?

As for tonight... it was totally in-character for Kaitlyn\Frost to not change her mind easily. I do like that the series is not dragging its heels on the various plot points, and that the series did the 'obvious dodge' with regards to Eddie and, "I'm working with the Flash but can't acknowledge it because he's technically a vigilante" (even if, really, they should have from the get-go). I personally was hoping the "found body" in the previews was going to be Stagg, which frankly is a plot point the series hasn't done enough with (I think the notion that he's missing has been merely mentioned - apparently what with Oliver Queen, multi-millionaires just disappear for months all them time :smallamused: ).

[Antonok]

I'm working my way through Arrow Season 2 right now myself, did Season 3 take a turn for the worse or something?

The first half did. It's gotten a lot better the last 5 or so episodes, since they started doing the main plot of the season instead of screwing around with wannbe filler.

[LaZodiac]

The first half did. It's gotten a lot better the last 5 or so episodes, since they started doing the main plot of the season instead of screwing around with wannbe filler.

Also that Oliver has a no kill policy now despite his...very kill happy beginnings, and the fact that everyone is totally fine with him now despite the fact that he DID kill a lot of people.

Also apparently the treatment of the ladies is so bad that Black Canary's one cameo in the last Flash episode is already a better characterization then her on Arrow.

[Antonok]

Also that Oliver has a no kill policy now despite his...very kill happy beginnings, and the fact that everyone is totally fine with him now despite the fact that he DID kill a lot of people.

Ehhh, I wouldn't say totally fine with it. Circumstantially understanding is a better term. It's not like you can take 5 years of living in a kill/be killed situation and turn that off at at a moments notice.


Also apparently the treatment of the ladies is so bad that Black Canary's one cameo in the last Flash episode is already a better characterization then her on Arrow.

I said the first half of the season was bad, just didn't mention how bad. They pretty much took every character and threw them under a spiky wheeled steamroller. The first 2 seasons at least had decently enough set personalities for most of the chars, this season made them look like they had multiple personality disorders.

[Starbuck_II]

Wait, are Everyman and "Orsen Wells" connected?
What is the theory of time travel in Flashverse?
Can they touch their past selves ("Back to the Future" but faint if realize they are) or do they explode ("Time Cop")?

[Zmeoaice]

One thing I noticed, the date on the article Gideon was showing was dated 2024... In Out of Time (the one where Eobard kills Cisco), doesn't Eobard say Cisco has been dead for decades?


He said Cisco has been dead for centuries . Eobard is from the 2500s.

[tomandtish]

I think you put your finger on it: In a show that is so much fun to watch, that does not fear to embrace being comicbooky or using cheesy dialogue, the Iris situation is just no fun at all. Joes treats Iris like a stupid child, Barry does the same with Joe's encouragement all the while claiming she's his best friend while not treating her like a best friend, and now they've dragged Eddie into it over his protestations, Barry goes to Iris and outright lies to her about why Eddie's being secretive, and Eddie gets to suffer Iris's wrath instead of the more deserving Joe and Barry. Their excuse that they are protecting her makes not sense-- it's the villain who needs to not know who the Flash is and that Iris has a connection to him to place Iris in danger. They could use the excuse that she's a reporter now, but the show hasn't bothered with that tack or made her much of a reporter yet.

I thought this past episode might be going for some sort of resolution to this finally, since they dialed up the ridiculousness of it. But instead I feel they brought it to an even more unfun place.

It's even worse when you consider the fact that since they believe the villain is Wells, he ALREADY KNOWS about the connection between Barry and Iris. Heck, thanks to the one day reset, he even knows that the connection is strong enough that under the right circumstances, one day is enough to turn Iris from Eddie to Barry.

In short, even the reporter angle only flies if you believe she'll immediately start writing articles on Wells as a possible Reverse Flash, or start confronting him with no precautions at all. And we haven't seen anything to indicate she's that careless.

I can't come up with any other reason that doesn't make them look like massive idiots for not telling her, because they are leaving her in more danger. The bad guy already knows.

And as of last night's episode, they KNOW that Wells is apparently not Wells, and IS the Reverse Flash. Wanna bet that they STILL don't tell her? My money is, she finds out by accident or when Barry's in a situation where he has no choice.

[Flickerdart]

I have the exact same shirt as the one Sisko is wearing at the start of the episode. Good taste, producers.

[Starbuck_II]

It's even worse when you consider the fact that since they believe the villain is Wells, he ALREADY KNOWS about the connection between Barry and Iris. Heck, thanks to the one day reset, he even knows that the connection is strong enough that under the right circumstances, one day is enough to turn Iris from Eddie to Barry.

In short, even the reporter angle only flies if you believe she'll immediately start writing articles on Wells as a possible Reverse Flash, or start confronting him with no precautions at all. And we haven't seen anything to indicate she's that careless.

I can't come up with any other reason that doesn't make them look like massive idiots for not telling her, because they are leaving her in more danger. The bad guy already knows.

And as of last night's episode, they KNOW that Wells is apparently not Wells, and IS the Reverse Flash. Wanna bet that they STILL don't tell her? My money is, she finds out by accident or when Barry's in a situation where he has no choice.

But telling her kills Cisco, we know this because when he told her in the "other time" Cisco died.
Her "Lois Lane"-ness keeps Cisco alive.

[tomandtish]

But telling her kills Cisco, we know this because when he told her in the "other time" Cisco died.
Her "Lois Lane"-ness keeps Cisco alive.

I'd have to re-watch the episode, but Cisco was already dead when he told her, so it didn't keep him alive. And even if Cisco's death happened after, Wells didn't know she knew, so the telling had no impact on his actions. That is, even if I'm mis-remembering and Wells killed Cisco after Barry told Iris, Wells didn't know that he told so his actions were still based on Iris's lack of knowledge.

[Metahuman1]

She's a journalist who can't even get taken seriously at work. She's trained to handle and deal with heavy cases like this. Her entire career involves cases involving this specific person right now. Eddie is sabotaging her job and treating her like a child. Because her father demands to still treat her like a child.

It's not even that The Flash is a particularly dangerous subject to write on in and of himself. He's a dude in a red suit who runs fast. He spent the night catching people with no casualties and no repercussions and they had a blast. The report wouldn't have read that differently from any other report on a police bust except 'oh, and this guy helped' and would have probably been just the thing she needed to get taken seriously as a journalist.

If she's acting pissy, it's because everyone else is having a great time naming weird villains and catching bad guys, but she never gets invited.

And yet I look at things like the most recent ep That fiasco of trying to drag him into the police station yourself with out Sedating him (With the fully trained medical doctor who's fully supplied right there in the building your already in no less.) or Gaging him or hell, just getting the video you need out of him and sent off site FIRST so that at least you can clear Eddie if he get's away, or better still, Calling the cops, with the captain you know is on your side, to the scene to make sure that no matter what else happens, Eddie walks. and how she manages to handle it in the STUPIDEST possible way. And I think "I wonder if she's being treated like she's an idiot cause she's kind of an idiot?" (And if the last ep was an indication, it's infectious and starting to effect Katelyn since she could have said something about any of that herself.).

Honestly, I DO hope that after this last Ep Joe will reconsider his position after that little chat he got to have and come to his senses and let her in on it so we can get on with it already.

Beyond that.

The bits with Joe and Sisko playing off the captain and Laurel were EASILY the best parts and I sincerely hope this is used to move the latter two into position to FINALLY get them on track. (Bonus points of the Carney Cry blows up or something while in Central City during a fight, and Laurel turns into a Meta with the same power as a result.)

And I also hope as I said above this get's Joe over is deal with Iris so we can put that behind us.

On the Arrow side. *Headdesk, Headdesk, Headdesk, ext.* You know, it would almost be worth it to do Crisis on Infinite Earths or Flashpoint Paradox NOW just to wipe all the stupid off of Arrow. Ra's, for crying out loud, you won, you got your stupid, stupid, stupid goal. STOP PUSHING YOUR LUCK! YOUR SUPPOSE TO BE SMARTER THEN THIS!!!!! GAH!!






Oh, and as for It's a bird it's a plane, I MIGHT have been ok with it if Superman was already established as a thing in this setting (I almost certainly would be if a superman supporting character was handy.).

But the thing is, I REALLY don't like what there doing with Ray Palmer. I find the idea of using Ray to be a straight (and I might add poorly executed.) Robert Downing Jr. Iron-man Rip off to be utterly infuriating. If you needed a version of Iron Man, what was such a bad idea about using Steel? You'd have had a lot fewer changes to make. It just, annoys me greatly that they did it this way and I just know it was Goyer or Johns who made that call, and this was just them going "En, let's take a shot at this movie we didn't like either on the grounds it was a better portrayal of out top character then the last two movies we did."

I dunno, maybe it's me but the only thing I like about this take on Palmer is him and Felicity, and only cause I do think they have Chemistry and it means we DON'T have to worry about Identity Crisis getting adapted in this universe, and it let's her still get someone she can be happy with while letting Olly and Laurel actually patch things up and stop being stupid about one another at long last. Assuming they will stop fracking that up with trying to ship or at least tease shipping Felicity and Olly.

[LaZodiac]

Can't have Steel because he's a black dude in a robot suit. Agents of Shield has something like that, so no can do.

Atleast I presume.

[3SecondCultist]

You are all bringing up some excellent points re:secrecy. Who knows what in Television is often an ongoing game, and can either make a break the tension of a season (or the course of a show). In my opinion, a big defining secret like a second identity coming out to a character that has been kept in the dark should be a HUGE event. Like, changes the dynamics of a show. I find that, in terms of secrets, showrunners should really go for all or nothing.

For instance, let's look at a show outside of the CW wheelhouse. I was going to use Breaking Bad, but I didn't that would be fair. Let's look at a more recent entry instead, say Marvel's Daredevil.

At the end of Episode 9, "Shadows in the Glass", Foggy Nelson - the best friend of the main character, Matt Murdock - uncovers his secret identity as Daredevil. Now, first and foremost, it is established pretty early on that Daredevil is much more of a loner. He doesn't reveal his secret identity of his own free will. Ever. The only people who know are an absolute necessity, and even then 2/3 or 4 of the people besides himself find out while Matt himself was unconscious. But Foggy finding out is a really big deal, contributing to a massive rift between the two of them that hasn't fully healed by the end of Season 1. It's a through line in the following episode, "Nelson vs. Murdock", has their conflict and subsequent split as the most powerful emotional through line.

Murdock has some really good reasons for keeping his identity as Daredevil secret. Besides secrecy being in his nature as a lone wolf type, he legitimately might have to worry about the well-being of the people he cares about if they get involved in his Daredevil affairs. Hell's Kitchen is a dangerous place, and even Matt can't be everywhere at once. His life is a lot less complicated with fewer people knowing his secret. And it's established several times throughout the show that he's more than a little ashamed of what he's doing, as though hunting bad guys and beating them into a bloody pulp with his bare hands isn't something to be proud of. People call him out on enjoying it, and rightfully so. He's an anti-hero who loves to fight, so why wouldn't he want to keep that darker side of his personality to himself?
Keeping it vague for spoilers but still maintaining my argument: both Arrow and Flash have a really annoying tendency to keep secrets for little discerning reason besides the eventual dramatic payoff when somebody inevitably uncovers it under all of the wrong circumstances. Particular points are the secrets kept from Captain Lance in Season 3, and the whole 'keeping Iris in the dark' angle. In both cases, the justifications given by the secret-keepers are incredibly flimsy, and actually the same: the secret-keepers want to protect the ones they ostensibly care about.

Although the Arrow example is moot now due to Lance learning the secret kept from him, there is literally no good reason for the continued deception of Iris. As noted several times on this forum alone, literally every single other main character knows that Barry is the Flash. Everyone. Even characters from another show learn before Iris does (I'm fairly sure that's every main character on Arrow as well). That's kind of pathetic. In Iris' case, Joe says he wants to protect her, but wouldn't she be better prepared for a threat like Wells if, you know, she knew he was a threat in the first place? She should be prepared for him using her as Barry's weakness. And Barry knows that Wells knows that she is Barry's weak spot, so he REALLY has no excuse here. Not telling her is doing her a huge disservice, and will probably ultimately lead to a trite scene where Wells engineers a rift between the two characters by revealing Barry's identity in order to use her against him, or something. Really, CW. You're supposed to be better than this.

[Jayngfet]

The obvious problem being that this secret is played out "the hero doesn't want his love interest to know the truth" is something the genre has abused since the thirties. I'm fine with secrets but at least give a new one.

[LaZodiac]

This secret holding is a lot sillier given the opposing show, Agent's of Shield, seems to go out of it's way to have secrets, only for the next episode to reveal them as quickly as possible.

[tomandtish]

You are all bringing up some excellent points re:secrecy. Who knows what in Television is often an ongoing game, and can either make a break the tension of a season (or the course of a show). In my opinion, a big defining secret like a second identity coming out to a character that has been kept in the dark should be a HUGE event. Like, changes the dynamics of a show. I find that, in terms of secrets, showrunners should really go for all or nothing.

Keeping it vague for spoilers but still maintaining my argument: both Arrow and Flash have a really annoying tendency to keep secrets for little discerning reason besides the eventual dramatic payoff when somebody inevitably uncovers it under all of the wrong circumstances. Particular points are the secrets kept from Captain Lance in Season 3, and the whole 'keeping Iris in the dark' angle. In both cases, the justifications given by the secret-keepers are incredibly flimsy, and actually the same: the secret-keepers want to protect the ones they ostensibly care about.

Although the Arrow example is moot now due to Lance learning the secret kept from him, there is literally no good reason for the continued deception of Iris. As noted several times on this forum alone, literally every single other main character knows that Barry is the Flash. Everyone. Even characters from another show learn before Iris does (I'm fairly sure that's every main character on Arrow as well). That's kind of pathetic. In Iris' case, Joe says he wants to protect her, but wouldn't she be better prepared for a threat like Wells if, you know, she knew he was a threat in the first place? She should be prepared for him using her as Barry's weakness. And Barry knows that Wells knows that she is Barry's weak spot, so he REALLY has no excuse here. Not telling her is doing her a huge disservice, and will probably ultimately lead to a trite scene where Wells engineers a rift between the two characters by revealing Barry's identity in order to use her against him, or something. Really, CW. You're supposed to be better than this.

I’m OK with one person having an unreasonable motive for not telling someone something. Laurel wanting to keep Sarah’s death from her father is understandable if she truly believes that the news might kill him. IIRC, there was some discussion among the group about whether he deserved to know, and the decision seemed to come down to: “it’s her (Laurel’s) father, so it’s her call to make”. I can think it is the wrong decision but at least follow the logic.

But the decision to not tell Iris doesn’t have even that level of logic working for it. Based on what we’ve seen so far, the three most important people in iris’s life are Joe, Eddie, and Barry. So of course, all three are holding on to the secret. They are her family, so you can use the “it’s a family decision” argument from above for Cisco, Caitlin, and the Star City crowd (correct me if I’m wrong, but Captain Lance and Ray Palmer are the only ones who don’t know about Barry? I forget if Ray knows).

IF the argument behind them not telling her was just that Barry didn’t want to reveal his secret identity, that might be a more plausible reason. Of course, he’d have to stop telling everyone else, but …

But as said before, the only argument they seem to have against it is “it puts her in danger”. And I just can’t see how three presumably intelligent adults manage to stay with that reasoning, when the only way to support it is if THEY believe Iris is an idiot.

[huttj509]

But as said before, the only argument they seem to have against it is “it puts her in danger”. And I just can’t see how three presumably intelligent adults manage to stay with that reasoning, when the only way to support it is if THEY believe Iris is an idiot.

That's Joe's argument. Mostly out of "she's my little girl" thinking like "well, I won't tell her about XYZ because that would just worry her and it's my duty as her parent to protect her from the world" which crops up so often IRL. And in the reverse direction with the Lances on Arrow.

Barry goes along with it out of respect for Joe's experience and opinion, and fear of Iris' reaction to him having kept her in the dark so long. Parroting Joe's excuse because it sounds half-reasonable on the surface (and it doesn't feel like he really believes it himself, at times).

Eddie (barely) goes along with it out of fear of Joe's reaction, risking his relationship with his partner (on whom his life depends on a daily basis) and girlfriend's father, and not wanting to be the guy who tells Iris her father and brother-figure have been lying to her about something so major.


The problem is there's not really a character who can go up to Joe, glare at him, and say "she's a grown-ass woman, it's not really protecting her, and is, in fact, just making things worse" except Mr. Lance from Arrow, and he's not in the know enough to do so. Barry's too son-ish, Eddie's the junior partner, Cisko and Caitlin don't have the personality or relationship clout to get through to him, and Wells is evil.

Either Joe changes his mind, or Barry and Eddie gather the courage to go around him. Either would be "yes please!" but neither would be easy.

[Ranxerox]

In defense of Joe, or attack on Iris depending on how you want to view it, Iris is an idiot. When Flash told her he wanted her to stop writing about him for her own safety, she went writing about him and eventually a meta went after her in order to get to the Flash. When Barry gave her a perfectly plausible reason why Eddie might want to keep certain aspects of his job secret from her, she chose to ignore it and keep emotionally blackmailing him to reveal stuff that he felt he needed to keep to himself.

So if informed that Wells may have disappeared that reporter, IMHO she would then either confront him or spy on him in a way that would get herself noticed. That is just how she rolls.

[Benthesquid]

I have a tendency when watching both this and Arrow to shout "Just tell him/her/them the thing!"

Super proud of Speedy for just telling everyone all the things in an attempt to finish off the whole League of Assassins threat. It worked out pretty well is you assume, as I do, that as charismatic as Mr. Barrowman is, Thea would probably be better off without her Murder!Dad in her life.

[Metahuman1]

Can't have Steel because he's a black dude in a robot suit. Agents of Shield has something like that, so no can do.

Atleast I presume.

Can't have a current version then either. He's a white dude in a robot suit, and Marvels entire Cinematic U, TV and Movies, is built on one of those named Tony Stark AKA Ironman.

Nope, just doesn't work.



That said, huttj509 has the right of it. She's a moron. She's been consistently showed as such all season. Meanwhile, Joe's biggest mistake is, Ironically, not letting her in on the secret so she can nearly get them all killed one or two times knowing the secret, get it out of her system, and then get out of the way finally and at last.

So, actually, I think I know how I want Flash season 1 to end/season 2 to open.

Season 1 should end on a stinger with this kid in a lab during a storm being struck by lighting and having chemicals spilled on him ala how Barry got started. Season two should open with him Comatose at Star Labs.

Then have something crash into the place and this kid super speed out, talk to everyone, including Iris (Especially Iris.) Calling her Grandma or something, and in so doing, outing to her that Barry is the Flash. As the ep progresses we should learn that the kid who outed him to Iris is Bart Allen, who thought he was a month or something further down the time line and thus that she already knew, and the kid who's in a coma, who wakes up with super speed like Barry's, is Wally West.


And they've already announced both characters are gonna get into the show next season anyway, so this would gel perfectly with that.

[Pex]

It always bothers me when a show changes its premise. I'm given a story concept I like then suddenly they abandon what they originally showed for something else entirely. Person Of Interest did this with its Samaritan plot. Agents of Shield was forced into it/on purpose did it due to "Winter Soldier". Going back years there's Moonlighting that became all about the romance between the main characters and Facts Of Life firing almost all the girls after the first season.

Flash isn't there yet, but I'm worried they're going to. Dr. Wells being the Reverse Flash was the plan all along yet now that everyone knows the character interaction dynamics changes. Season long/Series long plots can have interest, but I liked the one episode and done villain of the week. I'll accept for the rest of this season they're wrapping up Reverse Flash and Barry's parents. While next season inherently won't be the same, I just hope it doesn't become too different that I hardly recognize the show anymore.

[huttj509]

So, I checked the newspaper from ep. 1. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/huttj/NotAllen_zpsql7eejcb.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/huttj/media/NotAllen_zpsql7eejcb.jpg.html)

So, generally too blurry to read, but that byline is definitely NOT West-Allen. It has 6 letters and is something like Barson.

I was wondering if it had been there from the start.

[LaZodiac]

My Dad mentioned that in earlier episodes the newspaper apparently changed a little and Welles observed the changes, so maybe that is on purpose. Nice catch Hutt.

Anyway, I liked this episode. A shame The Every Man died, and I suppose The Burning Man will be touched upon later. Point is, this was enjoyable and a good way to reveal the Reverse Flash for real. Also, Hunky Cop shares the name with the Reverse Flash's true identity! Wish someone realized this by now :smallamused:

[Antonok]

The AI... is capable of lying... :smalleek:

Anyhow, good episode. Glad everything is completely out in the open now (aside from the whole Iris not knowing, but meh. I dislike her character anyhow).

Still have to wonder where future Barry is in all this, and if he'll make an appearance.

[tomandtish]

Quick side question: Anyone else noticing static on CW shows when music plays or is it just an Austin problem? First noticed it with last week's Arrow, and has been on every CW show I watch since. I'm on Suddenlink and Have verified that friends in the Austin area on U-verse and Time Warner have noticed same thing. It only seems to occur when there is background music.

[Pex]

The AI... is capable of lying... :smalleek:

Anyhow, good episode. Glad everything is completely out in the open now (aside from the whole Iris not knowing, but meh. I dislike her character anyhow).

Still have to wonder where future Barry is in all this, and if he'll make an appearance.


Iris does know. She figured it out at the end when she got sparked like they showed she did when he was in the coma.

[Zmeoaice]

Well that combined with the fact that he got a dose of particle accelerator explosion and has been acting really weird.

This show really doesn't treat it's minor villains well. Who wants to bet that half the prisoners will be killed off in "Rogue Air"?

[Metahuman1]

So, flash isn't a character I typically follow too closely in comics, least of all Barry Allen stuff, but, how many of his rogues are actually rogues form the comic books?

[comicshorse]

I recognise Captain Cold, Heatwave,the Golden Glider and, of course, the Reverse Flash from the comics. Also Captain Boomerang is normally a Flash villain too though 'Arrow' seem to gave grabbed him

Oh and Gorilla Grodd and the Trickster are from the comics to. Also Hartley Rathaway (Episode 11) is the name of the Pied Piper in the comics, though as I remember the Pied Piper's powers are considerably different to the villain in the show

On a slightly seperate note I do hope they use the Mirror Master at some point as his powers could look really cool

[huttj509]

So, flash isn't a character I typically follow too closely in comics, least of all Barry Allen stuff, but, how many of his rogues are actually rogues form the comic books?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogues_(comics)

Just from that villain group, we've seen:

Captain Cold
Heat Wave
Golden Glider
Captain Boomerang (via Arrow)
Weather Wizard
The Pied Piper
The Trickster


I'm not sure there's been any "new on this series" villains on the TV series. No "Harley Quinns" yet.

[Zmeoaice]

Rainbow Raider, Girder, and Peek-a-Boo are Flash villains albeit minor ones. Blackout is associated with Flash, but I don't think he's a villain.

[TheEmerged]

So I'm finishing up Arrow Season 2, and I got to the episode with Kaitlyn & Cisco. Nice little cameo.

[TheOldCrow]

What happened to future Barry? He came back in time with Eobard, then just disappeared.

Gideon was a lie, right? Future Barry didn't make her in the future, because how could Eobard have her in the past?

Welles sounded so proud of Caitlin when he realized what she was up to.

Joe continues to infuriate me with how he treats his daughter. This storyline seems to be going someplace, but at such a snail's pace I am tired of it.

Poor Eddie. I have been fearful that once Eobard needed to ditch his Welles persona, he'd take on Eddie's. It seems unlikely that that is his plan, given that Flash knows he snatched Eddie, but Eobard wants him for a reason and it can't be good.

I tend to check my brain at the door when watching The Flash, so the plot hole or idiot ball stuff doesn't usually bother me, but why the heck did Eddie pick that moment to propose and ask Iris not to take calls, when he knows that they are confronting Welles right then?

[LaZodiac]

Poor Eddie. I have been fearful that once Eobard needed to ditch his Welles persona, he'd take on Eddie's. It seems unlikely that that is his plan, given that Flash knows he snatched Eddie, but Eobard wants him for a reason and it can't be good.

I tend to check my brain at the door when watching The Flash, so the plot hole or idiot ball stuff doesn't usually bother me, but why the heck did Eddie pick that moment to propose and ask Iris not to take calls, when he knows that they are confronting Welles right then?

Because "I got this feeling I just had to NOW". It happens. Also since the Everyman was around maybe he did it? After all, Welles knew they where going to try and capture him, so he could of set it up. As for why he kidnapped Eddie, I think it's because (as Eddie said), they've got the same last name. They're family. Eobard wants SOMETHING to happen.

I bet future Flash being around will be important for later.

[Zmeoaice]

Gideon was a lie, right? Future Barry didn't make her in the future, because how could Eobard have her in the past?

Gideon was from the future, Eobard brought her to the past.

[TheOldCrow]

Gideon was from the future, Eobard brought her to the past.

So, she's the 25th century version of an AI that Barry created in the 20th century, and Eobard had her with him when he arrived and got stuck? Or did Future Barry bring her and Eobard got her off of him before Future Barry went missing? Or is she Eobard's creation and she lied about Barry creating her to trick Barry? I'm just not clear how exactly she ended up here in Eobard's possession. Seems like there is more to the story.

[Zmeoaice]

So, she's the 25th century version of an AI that Barry created in the 20th century, and Eobard had her with him when he arrived and got stuck? Or did Future Barry bring her and Eobard got her off of him before Future Barry went missing? Or is she Eobard's creation and she lied about Barry creating her to trick Barry? I'm just not clear how exactly she ended up here in Eobard's possession. Seems like there is more to the story.

Barry created her in the 2020s, Eobard went back from 2500s to 2020s and presumably stole it, then went back to 1998 and got stuck there.

I don't think Gideon lying about who created her serves any plot point.

[Antonok]

So, she's the 25th century version of an AI that Barry created in the 20th century, and Eobard had her with him when he arrived and got stuck? Or did Future Barry bring her and Eobard got her off of him before Future Barry went missing? Or is she Eobard's creation and she lied about Barry creating her to trick Barry? I'm just not clear how exactly she ended up here in Eobard's possession. Seems like there is more to the story.

Keep in mind, that there is a huge amount of time travel in the Flash comics.

The question really shouldn't be how Gideon got there, it's how Gideon is getting updates from the future to keep an eye on if Barry returns to that date or not.

[Flickerdart]

Keep in mind, that there is a huge amount of time travel in the Flash comics.

The question really shouldn't be how Gideon got there, it's how Gideon is getting updates from the future to keep an eye on if Barry returns to that date or not.
I'm guessing that the entire reason Barry time travelled already is that the Reverse Flash's time-jumping has left some kind of a rift in time, not sufficient for Eobard to cross through bodily but enough for small-scale time travel and apparently networking packet transfers.

[Oddman80]

if the technology itself is able to be constructed outside of the "time is linear" perception framework, it could simply exist. it could know all past present and future.

[Zmeoaice]

Keep in mind, that there is a huge amount of time travel in the Flash comics.

The question really shouldn't be how Gideon got there, it's how Gideon is getting updates from the future to keep an eye on if Barry returns to that date or not.

The answer to everything that doesn't make sense

Speed force

[TheEmerged]

Well, I guess that settles the "Iris = idiot ball" issues.

[Antonok]

I am rather disappointed by that fight with Grodd. I was REALLY wanting a semi decent fight when he recovered and they were staring at each other.

Still don't like Iris :smalltongue: but at least she has a bit more depth now. Will have to see how this plays in the remaining episodes.

And poor Eddie. Eobard just had to crush him didn't he....

[LaZodiac]

Not a big fan of Iris. Really enjoyed Grodd because he was a big psionic gorilla. Glad he survived.

Apparently Arrow will be in next week's episode, thus invalidating the drama of his plot of him staying as Ra'z slave. Not that anyone cares, it's Arrow.

[Pex]

Finally everyone in the main cast knows Barry is Flash. Even when it was everyone but Iris and everyone but Iris and Eddie it still took getting used to. It's a superhero staple that he has a secret identity with drama tension provided in keeping that identity a secret. Only a Select Few get to know and the Reveal only happens where it doesn't count because it's a dream, time travel, or not the real person who finds out. The True Reveal becomes a special moment. They did make a big deal with Iris finding out, but it's only the first season. Normally she wouldn't find out until at least season 3.

It doesn't bother me, per se, it's just taking the superhero story in a different direction. I remember reading once in an article about the Tim Burton Batman movies that for the lead actor you don't hire Batman, you hire Bruce Wayne. Batman is the stuntman. Bruce Wayne is the acting. That's what the Flash is. It's about Barry Allen, not a guy in a red suit. Grant Gustin wore the suit less and less as the season progressed. I suppose it's necessary to keep the drama interesting. If it's all about the suit it's no different than a kid's cartoon show.

On another note, I do appreciate that Barry has kept his shirt on for quite a number of episodes now, long since abandoning the pattern of every other episode. :smallyuk:

[JCarter426]

The question really shouldn't be how Gideon got there, it's how Gideon is getting updates from the future to keep an eye on if Barry returns to that date or not.
The real question is why a character voiced by Morena Baccarin is named Gideon. Gideon is a guy's name. :smalltongue:'

But on a completely different matter, did anyone notice Hawkgirl and Green Arrow? The production designers are all teases.

[Jayngfet]

Back to Arrow, I'm beginning to resent the Olicity shippers now more than ever, and the writers for catipulating to them. Felicity is easily the worst part of the latest episode and that's saying something. She's a noncombatant who halts the flow to constantly make overly dramatic speeches about how her feelings are more important than the reality of the situation at hand. In a situation where every minute counts they shouldn't need to waste hours bringing her around to the idea that they need to move right now.

[Kitten Champion]

I liked Felicity early on when she was the Oracle-lite platonic snarker character That she could kind of act, more or less, was something of a boon as well.

Then they ascended her to... essentially being a Mary Sue. I mean, her big story for the season was which perfect-10 billionaire superhero was she truly in love with, and I truly couldn't give a damn - add that to her omnipotent hacking abilities and over extended screen time and it becomes really hard to swallow.

I honestly went through two episodes just skipping through her scenes in their entirety and I ended up enjoying the show a lot more.

[BWR]

I was never really fond of Felicity, but with double entendres she was passable. She's become a right annoyance this season, with the exception of her part on Flash. Ray is great all the way and I want to see him get his own spin-off show.

[Jayngfet]

I liked Felicity early on when she was the Oracle-lite platonic snarker character That she could kind of act, more or less, was something of a boon as well.

Then they ascended her to... essentially being a Mary Sue. I mean, her big story for the season was which perfect-10 billionaire superhero was she truly in love with, and I truly couldn't give a damn - add that to her omnipotent hacking abilities and over extended screen time and it becomes really hard to swallow.

I honestly went through two episodes just skipping through her scenes in their entirety and I ended up enjoying the show a lot more.

Hacking abilities nothing. She tried to stop a fighter jet with an ipad. That's an entirely new level of BSing.

[Flickerdart]

Hacking abilities nothing. She tried to stop a fighter jet with an ipad. That's an entirely new level of BSing.
She stopped a ninja with an iPad, too.

[Jayngfet]

She stopped a ninja with an iPad, too.

He was killed by another ninja, that was just a gag.

But in all seriousness, at what point did League Assassins start fighting like the Putty Patrol? I mean they just surround the enemy in an old rock quarry then dance around in place for a bit. It's kind of hard to take them seriously when they act like a pack of particularly goofy Sentai Villains.

[Antonok]

But in all seriousness, at what point did League Assassins start fighting like the Putty Patrol? I mean they just surround the enemy in an old rock quarry then dance around in place for a bit. It's kind of hard to take them seriously when they act like a pack of particularly goofy Sentai Villains.

They've always been like that, outside specific people. Granted Black Canary taking on 3-4 of them at once though...

[Metahuman1]

I was never really fond of Felicity, but with double entendres she was passable. She's become a right annoyance this season, with the exception of her part on Flash. Ray is great all the way and I want to see him get his own spin-off show.

I seem to recall that Ray Palmer was gonna get a Spin off with Firestorm at the end of this season of Flash and Arrow.

I think I heard something about Roy Harper, Sarah Lance and Felicity going with.




I can hope. (Felicity's not actually the bad part. The bad part is Felicity being romantically involved with/interested in Olly. Get THAT out of the equation once and for all and It would get a lot better.



The other bad part is somewhere someone on the writing staff seems to have completely lost there way and can't figure out if they want serious noland-est deconstruction or full on comic book lunacy. )

[Flickerdart]

He was killed by another ninja, that was just a gag.
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/5a/5a1377fb332e3cf39d8b84dbb937d8606dcf0ec032c6ca04b5 87112ef23fabc5.jpg

[Kitten Champion]

He was killed by another ninja, that was just a gag.

But in all seriousness, at what point did League Assassins start fighting like the Putty Patrol? I mean they just surround the enemy in an old rock quarry then dance around in place for a bit. It's kind of hard to take them seriously when they act like a pack of particularly goofy Sentai Villains.

Heh, I had the exact same thought. The obvious use of some quarry in British Columbia as a backdrop, the rather simplistic level of choreography on display, and the ease the show's cast seemed to have in winning... I half-expected a guy in a monster-like rubber suit with dubbed-in dialogue to show up as the boss character for that week.

This, in part, is why the show functions a lot better at night.

Before that I was wondering why Felicity was going in the first place, given that Nanda Parbat has shown to be as technically advanced as medieval Tibet.... but after that I just didn't care anymore.

Incidently, am I the only one annoyed with the way the show cuts between Nanda Parbat and Starling City? I mean, they're supposed to be somewhere in central Asia and Starling City is somewhere in the east coast of the United States, but it doesn't feel that way at all with the way characters teleport between the two. Now, I know that's logically irrelevant since the time between cuts could technically be as long as they want, but it still makes Nanda Parbat feels like it's the next town over given the nonchalant way the show handles it.

[Jayngfet]

Heh, I had the exact same thought. The obvious use of some quarry in British Columbia as a backdrop, the rather simplistic level of choreography on display, and the ease the show's cast seemed to have in winning... I half-expected a guy in a monster-like rubber suit with dubbed-in dialogue to show up as the boss character for that week.

Hey, why do you think Maseo had a rubber mask this episode?

Arrow Sentai DCyuger would probably be a whole lot better if either of their reds had shown up.

[JCarter426]

Incidently, am I the only one annoyed with the way the show cuts between Nanda Parbat and Starling City? I mean, they're supposed to be somewhere in central Asia and Starling City is somewhere in the east coast of the United States, but it doesn't feel that way at all with the way characters teleport between the two. Now, I know that's logically irrelevant since the time between cuts could technically be as long as they want, but it still makes Nanda Parbat feels like it's the next town over given the nonchalant way the show handles it.
Starling is in California, actually. But no, you're not the only one. At this point I'm assuming it's in Utah or something.

Not more ridiculous than Ra's always having a super-rare Lazarus pit nearby no matter where he is in the comics or DCAU, though.

[Kitten Champion]

Starling is in California, actually. But no, you're not the only one. At this point I'm assuming it's in Utah or something.


Thing is, they showed a continental US map with Starling on it on the show, and we paused the DVR to look. The dot was distinctly somewhere in the general vicinity of New England.

Though that might have just been an error on that episode's part.

[JCarter426]

Well, they do film the establishing shots in Boston, which looks... nothing like California. Star City is in California, though.

[huttj509]

Well, they do film the establishing shots in Boston, which looks... nothing like California. Star City is in California, though.

Coast City is Los Angeles.
Central City is Central US, Missouri (in the comics has also been Ohio and Illinois). It just happens to look a lot like Portland Oregon...
Starling City (which Palmer wanted to rename to Star city) is alternately Chicago and Seattle, depending on who's writing, what they had for lunch, and whether they think anyone cares.

[JCarter426]

Star City is explicitly in California according to the Atlas of the DC Universe (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/File:Star_City.JPG). Of course, it isn't necessarily canon in the Arrow universe. Or necessarily even in the comics. But it's the only source for the city's location I can recall.

On that subject, the same atlas places:


Metropolis in Delaware - even though it's usually New York
Gotham in New Jersey - I view it as basically Newark and the surrounding area, especially if Metropolis is in New York
Coast City in California - obviously LA
Central City in Missouri - obviously Kansas City, with Keystone City being the other Kansas City... in at least one way the DC multiverse is more sensible than ours


And that bit about Palmer wanting to rename the city was another instance of everybody on staff being a bunch of teases. :smalltongue:

[Metahuman1]

Arrow Sentai DCyuger would probably be a whole lot better if either of their reds had shown up.

Can we have this be a self parody cartoon show? Please? Pretty please? This sounds HYSTERICAL!

[Jayngfet]

Can we have this be a self parody cartoon show? Please? Pretty please? This sounds HYSTERICAL!

It'd be brilliant wouldn't it.

Red Arrow!
Black Canary!
Actual Canary!
Black Driver!
I refuse to use the color Green Arrow!
Crying Wifi!

Best rolecall ever.

[Metahuman1]

Quick! Summon The Batzord!

... wait, why is it the bat zord?


Management: Because batman sells better, because Batman has more popularity and makes more money, cause batman has better brand recognition, cause we keep cribbing him anyway for this series so why not just take it to it's not so logical conclusion, take your pick.

[Jayngfet]

Quick! Summon The Batzord!

... wait, why is it the bat zord?


Management: Because batman sells better, because Batman has more popularity and makes more money, cause batman has better brand recognition, cause we keep cribbing him anyway for this series so why not just take it to it's not so logical conclusion, take your pick.

Then Brandon Routh shows up in his special Superzord and snaps the monsters neck. It writes itself.

[Airea]

I'm not the only person who likes flash but is ready to toss Arrow in the waste disposal. So nice to know I'm not a freak.

Elsewhere I've gotten chased away for even mentioning that Laurel has been badly handled. Let alone that I never likes Felicity. That's almost a death sentence.

The shippers, they are loud. Very loud.

But flash is awesome, that thing I'm loving the hell out of.

[The New Bruceski]

Hacking abilities nothing. She tried to stop a fighter jet with an ipad. That's an entirely new level of BSing.

Surface, not iPad.



Central City is Central US, Missouri (in the comics has also been Ohio and Illinois). It just happens to look a lot like Portland Oregon...

Portland from the air, Vancouver Canada from street level. I blame the accelerator accident for that.

[comicshorse]

I'm not the only person who likes flash but is ready to toss Arrow in the waste disposal. So nice to know I'm not a freak.


Nope I'm not going to bother with the next season of Arrow but I'm rather looking forward to season 2 of Flash


Elsewhere I've gotten chased away for even mentioning that Laurel has been badly handled. Let alone that I never likes Felicity. That's almost a death sentence.

See I like Felicity when she's with Ray and happy and bouncing double entredes and banter of each other but when she's angsting over her doomed romance with Ollie....... :smalleek:

[Airea]

I only started really hating her this season. She was "meh" before, but harmless enough. I got they wanted a tech person so it didn't bother me one way or another.

My key issue is I'm a 25 years BC fan and.....ya........

I don't remember killing anyone's new puppy but at this point I'm pretty sure that's what happened.

[Yana]

And as was eminently predictable...

Snart backstabs Barry, thus freeing all the captured superpowered villains and getting himself a blank slate to boot. Who on earth didn't see that one coming, aside from the Flash?

Also, was that a Hal Jordan reference that I spotted when they were at Ferris Air?

[Zmeoaice]

Why couldn't Cisco just build another freeze gun instead of asking a criminal to help them? It took him like what 5 minutes to build it in 'Rogue Time'?

[LaZodiac]

That was a cute episode.

Not Cyclops is dead I guess? I don't know and I don't know who any of these people are other then Cold, Gold, and Wizard.

The bit where he talks about how he's not Green Arrow is great because it's true he's not his show is good and Arrow's is bad. Meta humor for Zodi!

I like that Reverse Flash carries his suit in a ring like the old comics version of Wally West I think it was? I don't know. Point is, it's cool! No idea who Firestorm is by the way, I really shouldn't of got into this series at the Weather Wizard episode.

Seeing Thawn in the Flash suit without the high speed distortion is so weird, but also great actually. He looks ****ing deranged.

[Seerow]

This episode made me lose a lot of respect for Barry.

First, he signs up with Captain Cold despite everyone telling him it's a dumb idea and is going to backfire. Then surprise surprise it does. Why did they need Cold in the first place? The gun was one that Cisco designed, if they really needed another one couldn't he make another? I would assume it's got some technobabble based on a metahuman that can't be replicated, except he's made two others that work in an extremely similar manner to arm Cold's other two flunkies.


Then after that backfires exactly as expected and the pep talk following, we get to the showdown with the Reverse Flash, where Oliver, not Barry, puts down the Reverse Flash not once but twice. Yes Barry gets to save Ollie after the nanites wear out the first time, but come on. Sorry but this show is The Flash, not Arrow, I expect to see The Flash doing stuff, not calling in a guy from another show to use tech from a guy who's going to be headlining a third show to take care of his problem for him.

[Zmeoaice]

Yeah, Barry was a complete moron for trusting Snart. If they had a legitimate reason for needing his help, then the episode wouldn't be so dumb, and they didn't have any provisions to prevent this from happening.

At least Barry could have kept Snart's files on a backup.


Overall I think this episode would be a LOT better if Captain Cold wasn't in and the malfunction was just a malfunction. It would highlight Barry's heroism without making a complete and utter moron. Plus it would give him more reason to think Wells caused it.

And I guess Weather Wizard is going to send another tsunami to destroy the city.

[Seerow]

And I guess Weather Wizard is going to send another tsunami to destroy the city.


And still the magic wand that nullifies the weather powers will be nowhere to be found. No I will not let that go! Do not introduce a plot device that the tech character can build in a couple of hours that completely nullifies a villain, and then never give us a reason why that is not used every time that villain crops up again! Or why it wasn't used as part of capturing him in the first place! Just ugh.

[Dragonexx]

Am I the only one here who enjoys Arrow? My standards aren't that high, but still, it's not that bad.

[Seerow]

Am I the only one here who enjoys Arrow? My standards aren't that high, but still, it's not that bad.

Nope. I enjoy it as well, and don't really get all of the hate on it around here. I have my own issues with the show (mostly Laurel, this season's Felicity, and the plot of the first half of this season); but on the whole I still find it entertaining and plan to keep watching.

[Antonok]

Am I the only one here who enjoys Arrow? My standards aren't that high, but still, it's not that bad.


Nope. I enjoy it as well, and don't really get all of the hate on it around here. I have my own issues with the show (mostly Laurel, this season's Felicity, and the lack of plot of the first half of this season); but on the whole I still find it entertaining and plan to keep watching.

FTFY

Count me in on the 'likes it' party.

Really liked the first 2 seasons, and this one has picked up for the last few episodes, minus (like seerow said) this season's Felicity. And I like Laurel more than I do Iris, so there's that in her favor.

[cha0s4a11]

So, does anyone have an even remotely plausible sequence of events which would possibly allow for both the events at the end of the last Flash episode and the events at the start of the Arrow finale to happen?

Cause, um, yeah, I've got nothing....

[Airea]

Am I the only one here who enjoys Arrow? My standards aren't that high, but still, it's not that bad.

If they called it based on anything but "Green Arrow" it would be fine. But to call it that and give us this trash is an insult to everything the comics ever were.

And he's still not Batman. No matter how long he wishes, very very hard that he was.

[DiscipleofBob]

Steve Amell makes a terrible Oliver Queen. Every time I try to pinpoint the problem with Arrow or which character I'd remove/change to try to fix the show, it always comes back to him. He might have made an okay Bruce Wayne though. As for Laurel and Felicity who have been terribly written since season 2 at least, I blame the writers more than the characters or the actors.

Flash, however, is amazing, and I don't want to believe that Arrow and Flash are in the same universe.

I wonder if/when/how Cisco and Caitlin will get powers. Maybe if Wells manages to turn on the accelerator again?

[Airea]

Steve Amell makes a terrible Oliver Queen. Every time I try to pinpoint the problem with Arrow or which character I'd remove/change to try to fix the show, it always comes back to him. He might have made an okay Bruce Wayne though. As for Laurel and Felicity who have been terribly written since season 2 at least, I blame the writers more than the characters or the actors.

Flash, however, is amazing, and I don't want to believe that Arrow and Flash are in the same universe.

I wonder if/when/how Cisco and Caitlin will get powers. Maybe if Wells manages to turn on the accelerator again?

They have said they are open to powers now, and BC is the one person people keep asking about. Arrow isn't doing nearly as well as it used to be doing so I'm honestly wondering if they're having him appear all these places to up viewing. What they need to do is get to it being a GREEN ARROW show, but at this point I don't think that's possible anymore.

I would do all kinds of unspeakable things for Laurel to do a spin off show and do Birds of Prey, and leave Green Batman behind for good. He's not worth the cellophane they print him on.

And agreed on Flash, really good. One of the few shows I actively like right now. I just really wish Green Batman would stay away. I hate even looking at him.

[Jayngfet]

Steve Amell makes a terrible Oliver Queen. Every time I try to pinpoint the problem with Arrow or which character I'd remove/change to try to fix the show, it always comes back to him.

I think he just plays the wrong attitude. Dude is kind of ...not quite apathetic, but he's like a monotonous alien looking at things from the outside. Oliver Queen has always been more of an angry type, at least in my experience. He's driven and passionate and he should have a bit more energy to him.

[DiscipleofBob]

I think he just plays the wrong attitude. Dude is kind of ...not quite apathetic, but he's like a monotonous alien looking at things from the outside. Oliver Queen has always been more of an angry type, at least in my experience. He's driven and passionate and he should have a bit more energy to him.

Amell's too broody, which might have worked for Batman. But Green Arrow... not so much. It doesn't help that Amell keeps taking credit for pushing some of the more terrible aspects of the last few seasons. Katie Cassidy I firmly believe would either be doing a better job or quitting for a better part if it weren't for the writers.

[Jayngfet]

Amell's too broody, which might have worked for Batman. But Green Arrow... not so much. It doesn't help that Amell keeps taking credit for pushing some of the more terrible aspects of the last few seasons. Katie Cassidy I firmly believe would either be doing a better job or quitting for a better part if it weren't for the writers.

Even broody might work if it was less of a selfish kind of broody. His Oliver always goes on about his own problems and this city is only secondary or vaguely related to his personal stuff. But Oliver Queen's main thing, for decades, has been that he cares more about other people than himself and the only thing that's ever run counter to that is less him being so self oriented and more his pride and stubbornness. I never really got the idea of Oliver Queen as stubborn or prideful, which doesn't really sell the character for me.

[Airea]

Even broody might work if it was less of a selfish kind of broody. His Oliver always goes on about his own problems and this city is only secondary or vaguely related to his personal stuff. But Oliver Queen's main thing, for decades, has been that he cares more about other people than himself and the only thing that's ever run counter to that is less him being so self oriented and more his pride and stubbornness. I never really got the idea of Oliver Queen as stubborn or prideful, which doesn't really sell the character for me.

How it worked is that he was a batman knock off, complete with the mood. He was also an ass, though bad luck had something to do with that. He did have a lot of bad luck.

But one by one he crossed the line. It happens, and he did with every member on his team. It took dying to get the point. Once he did, however, he had to mend fences. The rest weren't so bad. Roy was a little icy, but picked up on his trying to get better. Conner took time but got there. This was pre Mia. But Di was hard. He had betrayed her more then a few times. That took longer.

[TheOldCrow]

Why couldn't Cisco just build another freeze gun instead of asking a criminal to help them? It took him like what 5 minutes to build it in 'Rogue Time'?

Yeah, I wondered that too. I wish the show would be a bit more consistent with what Cisco can and cannot do.

I did not enjoy Captain Cold at all. The guy is a cold blooded killer, why work with him? The whole thing would have worked fine without him there. Instead the pilot of the plane is murdered, and a bunch of dangerous criminals get loose.

The only good thing to come out of Captain Cold is that maybe Team Flash will now work with the city so the metahuman criminals can be legally held and processed next time they are captured.

I liked the parts of the episode that didn't involve Captain Cold. I liked that Flash captured Eobard via teamwork rather than suddenly sprouting more powerful abilities. I don't watch Arrow (I only made it through half an episode once), but I was quite happy with Arrow's role here. Crossovers with Arrow have made the characters on that show seem really cool, actually, and make me almost want to try it again.

[Kitten Champion]

Amnell's problem is he's written like a Nolan protagonist (take your pick) but, well, that isn't Nolan's strong suit. Nolan does have, however, a number of other strengths which account for his continued and in my opinion largely warranted success as a director and writer... that Arrow's writing staff are pretty amateurish in replicating. They're certainly trying, season 3 has largely been a heavily over-extended and slightly revised version of the plot to Batman Begins, with near identical themes.

I'm convinced the biggest problem with Arrow is simply that there are too many episodes and in endeavouring to fill that time the writers throw up a number of largely uninteresting subplots and oodles of filler material that simply drown the meta-arc in their irrelevancy. What could be compelling is so drawn out that it loses all the epic flavour they seem to be going for.

Take, for example, the way the show employs flashbacks in season 3 - they no longer provide meaningful insight into the characters which have already had two seasons to be established and they certainly don't progress the current plot in any significant fashion. They do however, waste screen time, and to these writers that's sufficient reason to keep including them.

[Airea]

I both love and hate Nolan. And he agrees, which is cute.

When he is good, he is great. Fantastic. Wonderful. One of the best. But the problem with being so well known for being so good is that then everyone tries to copy you. But they aren't you. So they fail.

Which is how to got to "everyone-has-to-be-batman"itis. That Barry is lighthearted and actually fun shouldn't be remarkable, but it is. They've focused so heavily on how awesome batman is, thanks to Nolan, that they almost forgot that happy people could exist. So when GA came up OF COURSE they went the Nolan route with the brooding and the drama and stuff. People like batman, right?

Thing is batman is a heavy dish, there's a lot of calories there. You can only really have so much before you get full. And in any case it's been their dish for so long that I know I'm not the only person who is more then ready to move on. So they give us gotham- more batman. And Arrow - more batman. Flash they took a risk and it took off like mad. Which is, I think, why we have Supergirl coming now.

I'm just really, really over batman.

[Jayngfet]

Amnell's problem is he's written like a Nolan protagonist (take your pick) but, well, that isn't Nolan's strong suit. Nolan does have, however, a number of other strengths which account for his continued and in my opinion largely warranted success as a director and writer... that Arrow's writing staff are pretty amateurish in replicating. They're certainly trying, season 3 has largely been a heavily over-extended and slightly revised version of the plot to Batman Begins, with near identical themes.

I'm convinced the biggest problem with Arrow is simply that there are too many episodes and in endeavouring to fill that time the writers throw up a number of largely uninteresting subplots and oodles of filler material that simply drown the meta-arc in their irrelevancy. What could be compelling is so drawn out that it loses all the epic flavour they seem to be going for.

Take, for example, the way the show employs flashbacks in season 3 - they no longer provide meaningful insight into the characters which have already had two seasons to be established and they certainly don't progress the current plot in any significant fashion. They do however, waste screen time, and to these writers that's sufficient reason to keep including them.

I'd say it's not even being "Nolan" and only instead being a very narrow stretch of what Nolan can write.

I mean the protagonist of Interstellar, like the movie or not, is fundamentally a good person who risks his life to save the earth and will fight for truth and justice in any and every context. He's the midwestern hero Snyder's Superman should have been in that context.

[Antonok]

Alright so just watched the season finale of Arrow.

I'm going to go with the highly unusual (for me) route of being optimistic:

Now that Olicity is fully panned out and they've (literally) ridden off into the sunset now, hopefully this will fix Felicity's major problem this season.

Also, I really hope this changes Oliver's Nollan-esk writing.

I do like the show, but there is no denying this season had problems to say the least.

[Airea]

Alright so just watched the season finale of Arrow.

I'm going to go with the highly unusual (for me) route of being optimistic:

Now that Olicity is fully panned out and they've (literally) ridden off into the sunset now, hopefully this will fix Felicity's major problem this season.

Also, I really hope this changes Oliver's Nollan-esk writing.

I do like the show, but there is no denying this season had problems to say the least.

I don't see how caving to the shippers and making this even more of a bad fan-fiction is going to fix anything. And you know -SOMETHING- bad is going to happen at the beginning of the next season so I'd enjoy that sunset while you can. Nolan will be back.

[Kitten Champion]

I'd say it's not even being "Nolan" and only instead being a very narrow stretch of what Nolan can write.

I mean the protagonist of Interstellar, like the movie or not, is fundamentally a good person who risks his life to save the earth and will fight for truth and justice in any and every context. He's the midwestern hero Snyder's Superman should have been in that context.

This is me being cynical here, but I think much of that characterization - and a number of the decisions of the film in general - might just be due to the intended director being Spielberg. A man who understands these things we humans call emotions.

[Jayngfet]

I have to say I still love Arrow's little touches. Ras hiding out at the corner of Adams and O'Neil made me smile more than anything else this season.

[Pex]

I read that the planned spin-off will be delayed. They're probably having difficulty finalizing Robbie Amell's contract. They can't agree on how many episodes he must take his shirt off.
:smallyuk::smallbiggrin:

[Metahuman1]

So, I noticed something with the most recent eps.


They both started on a REALLY strong note. And then it when south. Much less so for Flash, but it did. (In fairness, Flash being on first name terms with his bad guys is kinda a thing in comics. Half the time he doesn't even fight trickster, he just goes and get's him his pills and a bottle of water and just talks to him and let's him verbally vent a bit and get's him to take them.).

When Flash showed up and schooled the league I was sitting there al but screaming "YES! FINALLY! A SMART MOVE!!"

And then again when it turned out Olly brought Nyssa in on and it sabotaged the plane to take out Ra's and the Virus in route. And then we found out for some inexplicable reason he didn't do it in route to the city when there was nothing but hundreds of miles of open ocean in every direction, and it was down hill from there on the arrow side.


And no, I have no idea how Olly slipped off and back to help Barry. I don't care, I got to see Firestorm again. That and that they beat Ra's by basically refusing to totally play his game anymore and showing him just how outdated he was really becoming. Though the Malcom and Nyssa bit pissed me off no end.



Anyway, Katlin's gonna turn into Killer Frost, don't know about Sisco. Also, new theory, Well's RF is gonna be gone by the end of the season, but he's already set things up to have Eddie become a new RF if he does go away.

And YAY! IRIS HAD AN ACTUAL MOMENT OF COMPETENCY!!!! HAHA!! YES!!! FINALLY!!!!

And yes, that was a Hal Jordan Reference, cause of course if were gonna do GL and Geoff Johns has a say, it HAS to be freaking Hal Jordan. (GIVE ME JOHN STUART OR KYLE RAINER!!!!!!!!!)



Oh, and saw the preview for Legends of Tomorrow:

Atom shrinks sooner or later, finally,

Still no sign of Firestorms other more interesting powers (He's a Justice League member form the 1980's who's been around for most of 20 years. In addition to what you've seen he should also have force feild projection, lasers, and the ability to turn matter into other matter. (Think Ed Elric form FMA, but faster, larger amounts and more flexibility.) He's at a power level were he can hang with Flash, Wonder Woman and Green Lantern.

Were Getting Hawkgirl.

Sarah Lance is coming back via Lazurus Pit (Which MIGHT make the bit with Nyssa and Malcome better. Will see.) as White Canary.

Evidently Flash and Arrow will be at least part timing with the team.

Were getting what appears to be Wave Rider or someone from his group. (There like Time Lords, there in charge of stopping precisely the sort of stuff Wells has been doing all season on flash, abusing the time line.)

No sign of Felicity but then we made Ollicity a thing now so why would there be. (I REALLY wish they'd just written her out of the show. I REALLY do. Or hooked her up with Ray, that would work too.).

And there gonna be fighting Vandal Savage and his armies through out history! That's actually really Cool!

On the whole, I'm excited. More So if Supergirl and Titans turn out any good and WB does do what there hinting at doing, which is telling all the respective networks "You don't own these characters, we do, they share a universe, and there gonna do team ups. Weather you like it or not."



Edit: Oh, almost forgot, Captain Cold and Heatwave are gonna be on the team. I don't, know, why. Oh well, still looking net positive at the moment!

[LaZodiac]

What was the Green Lantern reference? Was it on Flash, and if so what was it?

[comicshorse]

What was the Green Lantern reference? Was it on Flash, and if so what was it?

It was on Flash. The hand over of the Metahumans was to occur on an old airfield owned by Ferris Aircraft which ' went bust when one of their test pilots disappeared on a flight test'.
Hal Jordan's background is, last time I checked, that he was a test pilot for Ferris Aircraft

[Metahuman1]

It was on Flash. The hand over of the Metahumans was to occur on an old airfield owned by Ferris Aircraft which ' went bust when one of their test pilots disappeared on a flight test'.
Hal Jordan's background is, last time I checked, that he was a test pilot for Ferris Aircraft

Who disappeared either during or shortly after one of there test flights (That details been known to change every so often back and forth ala Were it was Tony Stark first took a heart full of Shrapnel.) launched from one of there fields. And it was an ongoing thing with him for decades that he worked there as a test piolet as his day job.

And yes, the disappearance was being brought to an injured alien member of the Green Lantern Corps by his ring in order to be given the basics of how this works as well as both his ring and lantern battery.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

Who disappeared either during or shortly after one of there test flights (That details been known to change every so often back and forth ala Were it was Tony Stark first took a heart full of Shrapnel.) launched from one of there fields. And it was an ongoing thing with him for decades that he worked there as a test piolet as his day job.

And yes, the disappearance was being brought to an injured alien member of the Green Lantern Corps by his ring in order to be given the basics of how this works as well as both his ring and lantern battery.



Also the ship he boards at the end is from coast city... so I am hoping to see hal Jordan pre ring next year...

[Jayngfet]

Also the ship he boards at the end is from coast city... so I am hoping to see hal Jordan pre ring next year...

The event they're referencing is pretty clearly post ring. Since the 80's Hal's backstory has gone up and down a bit but he obviously has to disappear when he finds the ring because there's no way of tracking him to where he's gone.

Given Johns is involved I'd expect he's probably off training with Kilowog or Sinestro or both and will show up as a fully realized member of the corps already. He's had like a year so he's been going about as long as Flash.

[Kitten Champion]

Can CW afford to do Green Lantern? I mean in any practical sense, without looking awful?

[Jayngfet]

Flight aside it's probably not THAT hard. Some green lasers, some green plastic props with some simple VFX on them, and you're good to go. Even flight is getting easier since they can just rig up a digital model and animate that simply.

[JCarter426]

It shouldn't be that hard. The problem is stupid decisions make it harder, like the movie having the uniforms made of CGI. Power rings are capable of creating regular stuff. Not everything would have to be glowing all the time.

There are two larger issues. First, whether they'd be allowed to use anything related to Green Lantern. Warner Bros. logic never makes sense, so I can't really predict that, but a few Ferris and Coast City references don't mean they got the rights. And the second issue is whether they're willing to bring aliens into the show. Given that we already have already done metahumans and time travel, I don't see why there should be a problem, but I also see a distinct lack of aliens in Legends of Tomorrow. At least, it looks like this version of Hawkgirl isn't from Thanagar and there's no Martian Manhunter. There's about a zero chance of Martian Manhunter getting his own film, so there's no reason they wouldn't be allowed to use him, even by Warner Bros. logic. Maybe they thought he was too powerful, but it could be some people have a problem with him because he's from Mars.

All that aside, a Green Lantern TV series would be amazing and I'm continually surprised how they manage to neglect this part of the multiverse.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

Can CW afford to do Green Lantern? I mean in any practical sense, without looking awful?

As a guest star would it be any harder then firestorm? Heck if they just do bubbles, blasts, big fists, and flight it would be easier and cheaper then firestorm...

[Jayngfet]

The DC rights situation is way more straightforward than Marvel. The network is owned(partially) by Time Warner, who also owns DC and WB at the same time. Getting a character just takes a couple of meetings and that's it, unless another branch has something conflicting, and even then not really. That's why Cartoon Network got all the Justice League stuff, they didn't need to pay for it.

The problem with the DC movies is entirely due to incompetency and nobody having any idea what they're doing. The Aquaman film has gotten pushed back several times solely because WB can't figure out what the "rules" of the DCLAU are from the ground level and any time a script comes out like two days later apparently magic doesn't work as they were told it would.

Since the TV stuff on the CW is mostly under the hands of a few well connected people that issue never comes up. They pretty much only need to hash out an idea once, maybe twice with rewrites, and it's ready for filming.

As for Hal Jordan specifically, the implication currently seems to be that he's going to be either hanging out in Arrow or bouncing between the two. Given Ollie is leaving this city and moving around it's pretty much an easy setup to do season four as GL/GA, which is pretty much the definitive trade for both characters and one where everything is reasonably effects light until the very end.

[JCarter426]

It's not straightforward at all. Justice League was forbidden from using any Batman villains apart from the Joker a few times. Smallville was forbidden from using Batman or anything related to him at all; in fact, it was meant to be a young Bruce Wayne series originally, but when that was refused it turned into Superboy. I haven't heard any official word on the CW universe, but the lack of any Superman or Batman is rather obvious, and there are rumors that the higher ups ordered Deadshot be killed off as soon as the Suicide Squad film was put into production.

[Jayngfet]

It's not straightforward at all. Justice League was forbidden from using any Batman villains apart from the Joker a few times. Smallville was forbidden from using Batman or anything related to him at all; in fact, it was meant to be a young Bruce Wayne series originally, but when that was refused it turned into Superboy. I haven't heard any official word on the CW universe, but the lack of any Superman or Batman is rather obvious, and there are rumors that the higher ups ordered Deadshot be killed off as soon as the Suicide Squad film was put into production.

Yes, but that's executive decision. There's a difference between being ordered not to do something and nobody being able to do it either way.

[Zmeoaice]

It's not straightforward at all. Justice League was forbidden from using any Batman villains apart from the Joker a few times.

You're confused. Justice League and the first season of Unlimited could use any Batman villain they wanted. They had Clayface, Solomon Grundy, and Hugo Strange. After that all major Batman villains were banned including the Joker, but they could still use minor ones like the KGBeast.

[JCarter426]

Justice League, Justice League Unlimited, I see them as the same show. Point is they were banned.

But I thought Joker appeared after the ban, and he was the only exception. I might be remembering that wrong, though.

[LaZodiac]

And thus The Flash ended. With a wimper. My god.

I mean I expected this kind of ending, since DC said the shows aren't canon with the movies. So they needed some way to erase the universe. Such as it goes. The helmet hat was a nice touch though.

[leafman]

And thus The Flash ended. With a wimper. My god.

I mean I expected this kind of ending, since DC said the shows aren't canon with the movies. So they needed some way to erase the universe. Such as it goes. The helmet hat was a nice touch though.

Is it over? The ad after the show said they'd be back in the fall. I don't disagree that the season finale ended poorly, but I generally don't like cliff hanger endings for season finales.

[LaZodiac]

Is it over? The ad after the show said they'd be back in the fall. I don't disagree that the season finale ended poorly, but I generally don't like cliff hanger endings for season finales.

It'll be back, like you said. But it's clear this is their out if it doesn't pan out.

[Antonok]

Anyone else laugh a bit too hard at Stein's 'Let's not fight on our wedding day' quip to Ronnie?

But holy crap this episode. Jay Garrick's Helmet was a nice touch, Eddie shooting himself was surprising, and all that entails (which can be a lot).

Not entirely sure I like the cliffhanger ending though, considering the Flash has a second season coming (and has for a while).

Edit: Though I guess it does make sense with Legends of Tomorrow coming out.

[BWR]

An impressive finale. It's been bugging me all season but does anyone else feel Cisco tries too hard to be geeky? "May the Speed Force be with you" was the only one I can think of that I thought was actually funny throughout the series.

I liked how Stein pointed out to Eddie that RFWells could easily have lied about Iris&Barry, since it seemed like such an obvious thing to lie about. Stein is probably the second best character in the show, after RFWells.
Still, now that RF is dead we get into butterfly effect. Shouldn't everything he did be undone? Killing Barry's mom, killing Well's gf and taking over his place, fast-forwarding the particle accelerator scheme, jump-starting the Flash, etc.? Why is the only thing that changes RF's disappearance right then? Especially after all that talk about timeline changes? If there will be more timeline changes, why didn't they take effect immediately?

ARGH! *comicbook logic comicbook logic ommmmmmmm*

I guess we'll see if there are any timeline changes in s2.

[dancrilis]

That was something else.

Lets listen to the bad guy to play with time ... ok maybe, sure it will have untold repercussions and might destroy the world and effectively delete untold people that exist due to being in anyway related to the life that Barry lived, but sure I can buy it - some people are like that.

Lets also for no reason give the bad guy what he wants because he told us how to do the above - despite that he is dangerous and hates you. Honour I guess?

Ok everything is working out - decided not to screw with the past after all, so lets also stop the bad guy getting what he wants for no reason other then to troll the homicidal maniac as you clearly don't think him going home is bad.

Ok the guy who clearly exists stops existing because the timeline changes to prevent him being born in the future - despite the fact that he clearly exists in the future in order to start off the whole thing.

And why not the earth is doomed.

They could have saved everyone a lot of trouble by just killing the bad guy, or keeping him locked up and not listen to him, or even just giving him what he wanted.

And how the hell did the Flash in the past know that the Flash from the present was in the past unless the Flash in the past was actually from the Future and had reason to believe that saving his mother would be bad despite apparently not actually trying to do it because he told himself not to.

[LaZodiac]

Anyone else laugh a bit too hard at Stein's 'Let's not fight on our wedding day' quip to Ronnie?

But holy crap this episode. Jay Garrick's Helmet was a nice touch, Eddie shooting himself was surprising, and all that entails (which can be a lot).

Not entirely sure I like the cliffhanger ending though, considering the Flash has a second season coming (and has for a while).

Edit: Though I guess it does make sense with Legends of Tomorrow coming out.

I think I might be a bad person because I immediately thought "oh he's going to shoot himself to prevent Thaun from doing something" when they mentioned he was a random factor. Still was a good scene mind you.

This was a really good EPISODE, but it had a bad ending for a season finale.

[Calemyr]

An impressive finale. It's been bugging me all season but does anyone else feel Cisco tries too hard to be geeky? "May the Speed Force be with you" was the only one I can think of that I thought was actually funny throughout the series.

I liked how Stein pointed out to Eddie that RFWells could easily have lied about Iris&Barry, since it seemed like such an obvious thing to lie about. Stein is probably the second best character in the show, after RFWells.
Still, now that RF is dead we get into butterfly effect. Shouldn't everything he did be undone? Killing Barry's mom, killing Well's gf and taking over his place, fast-forwarding the particle accelerator scheme, jump-starting the Flash, etc.? Why is the only thing that changes RF's disappearance right then? Especially after all that talk about timeline changes? If there will be more timeline changes, why didn't they take effect immediately?

ARGH! *comicbook logic comicbook logic ommmmmmmm*

I guess we'll see if there are any timeline changes in s2.


The butterfly effect is not in effect, because there is no loop at this point. While time travel is involved, Eobard's line is linear.
Eobard's timeline:
Future: Gets born, time shenanigans, becomes Reverse Flash.
15 years ago: Attempts to kill Flash as a kid, Flash intervenes, mother dies in conflict.
15 years ago: Eobard's Speed Force gauge runs out, cannot time travel without super speed.
15 years ago: Kills Wells, transforms into Wells.
1 year ago: Initiates the particle accelerator incident, creates Flash. Wants to kill flash, but resists in the hopes of getting back to the future.
Season 1: Spends most of season developing new tech and tricks for speedsters (himself included) using Flash as guinea pig. Implements successful tests on self.
Present: Gets shot in the back by a Batman wannabe and dies like a wimp.

Killing the Reverse Flash does not create a butterfly effect because none of RF's actions involve a "future" version of him. The story does not change whether RF lives or dies.

Eobard's original goal, on the other hand, would have caused trouble, as a major defining factor of his entire timeline would be removed had he succeeded. Presumably RF felt it would be worth the risk of triggering a butterfly effect if it meant being rid of Flash. After that failure, he attempted to manipulate the timeline to create as accurate a representation of the future as he could while altering it to suit him (accelerating events leading to the accelerator incident from 20+ years down to 14). He used a single point in time (the incident where he went back to kill young Barry) as a landmark. As long as this incident occurs, the timeline is accurate enough for Eobard to exist as he is.

The only impact on the timeline that RF's death has is that all future encounters with RF come with the knowledge that his final outcome is known. When Eobard makes his "first" appearance, Barry will know how it ends.

[Ranxerox]

The butterfly effect is not in effect, because there is no loop at this point. While time travel is involved, Eobard's line is linear.
Eobard's timeline:
<snip>
Present: Gets shot in the back by a Batman wannabe and dies like a wimp.

Killing the Reverse Flash does not create a butterfly effect because none of RF's actions involve a "future" version of him. The story does not change whether RF lives or dies.

Eobard's original goal, on the other hand, would have caused trouble, as a major defining factor of his entire timeline would be removed had he succeeded. Presumably RF felt it would be worth the risk of triggering a butterfly effect if it meant being rid of Flash. After that failure, he attempted to manipulate the timeline to create as accurate a representation of the future as he could while altering it to suit him (accelerating events leading to the accelerator incident from 20+ years down to 14). He used a single point in time (the incident where he went back to kill young Barry) as a landmark. As long as this incident occurs, the timeline is accurate enough for Eobard to exist as he is.

The only impact on the timeline that RF's death has is that all future encounters with RF come with the knowledge that his final outcome is known. When Eobard makes his "first" appearance, Barry will know how it ends.


Eddie didn't shoot RF in the back. RF moves too fast for Eddie to be confident in hitting him. Eddie shot himself, thus preventing RF from ever being born in the first place. So yes RF timeline is changed in a nonlinear way. Indeed RF indirectly through his own actions has caused himself to never be born in the first place, and therefore all the actions that he performed including those that brought the time line to this point should never have occurred. In this context wiping out the timeline through a singularity actually makes as much sense as anything since the snake has now swallowed its tail.

[Ranxerox]

<snip>

And how the hell did the Flash in the past know that the Flash from the present was in the past unless the Flash in the past was actually from the Future and had reason to believe that saving his mother would be bad despite apparently not actually trying to do it because he told himself not to.


Cisco can "remember" alternate timelines, and apparently also had that ability in the timeline that Reverse Flash came from since upon finding out he had the ability RF knew who he had "an honorable destiny". Since I'm thinking that the Cisco for RF's timeline warned his Flash that he would encounter an alternate version of himself and that he need to stop the alternate version from rescuing his mom.

[Pex]

An impressive finale. It's been bugging me all season but does anyone else feel Cisco tries too hard to be geeky? "May the Speed Force be with you" was the only one I can think of that I thought was actually funny throughout the series.

I liked how Stein pointed out to Eddie that RFWells could easily have lied about Iris&Barry, since it seemed like such an obvious thing to lie about. Stein is probably the second best character in the show, after RFWells.
Still, now that RF is dead we get into butterfly effect. Shouldn't everything he did be undone? Killing Barry's mom, killing Well's gf and taking over his place, fast-forwarding the particle accelerator scheme, jump-starting the Flash, etc.? Why is the only thing that changes RF's disappearance right then? Especially after all that talk about timeline changes? If there will be more timeline changes, why didn't they take effect immediately?

ARGH! *comicbook logic comicbook logic ommmmmmmm*

I guess we'll see if there are any timeline changes in s2.


That's probably what caused the cliffhanger vortex - a paradox.

[comicshorse]

Cisco can "remember" alternate timelines, and apparently also had that ability in the timeline that Reverse Flash came from since upon finding out he had the ability RF knew who he had "an honorable destiny". Since I'm thinking that the Cisco for RF's timeline warned his Flash that he would encounter an alternate version of himself and that he need to stop the alternate version from rescuing his mom.

More importantly does that mean Cisco becomes a superhero in his own right ? And if so, who ?

[Ranxerox]

More importantly does that mean Cisco becomes a superhero in his own right ? And if so, who ?

Cisco science is so close to magic, I would like to see him become Dr. Fate. I can totally picture him living in a tower in some pocket dimension with his beautiful assistant, watching the timelines and producing marvelous gadgets. However, I really don't have a clue what direction they are actually go with this.

[DiscipleofBob]

More importantly does that mean Cisco becomes a superhero in his own right ? And if so, who ?

Cisco Ramon in the comics is the superhero Vibe, who has the ability to control vibrations. Think Skye in the current Agents of SHIELD. Also of note, in the comics, Vibe was brought in on Amanda Waller's Justice League to oppose the Flash because supposedly Vibe could tap into the right frequency and disrupt the speed force.

[noparlpf]

I am so confused. I was under the impression that Firestorm had to stay one person. Is there like, a time limit that they have when they split up? If not, why did they go away again? Are they cheating on their wife and fiancée with each other? (I don't think I have to spoiler this because their episodes happened ages ago.)

Also, like, what's with that ending.


Still, now that RF is dead we get into butterfly effect. Shouldn't everything he did be undone? Killing Barry's mom, killing Well's gf and taking over his place, fast-forwarding the particle accelerator scheme, jump-starting the Flash, etc.? Why is the only thing that changes RF's disappearance right then? Especially after all that talk about timeline changes? If there will be more timeline changes, why didn't they take effect immediately?

Okay so here's Eobard Thawne's personal timeline in the Arrow/Flash universe:
2000A: Henry and Nora Allen put Barry to bed as usual
2020A: Harrison Wells successfully activates the particle accelerator
2151A: Eobard Thawne is born
21XXA: Eobard Thawne travels back to the 2020s
2024A: Eobard and Barry fight; they travel back to 2000
2000B: Eobard kills Nora Allen and gets stuck in the past
2000B: Eobard kills Wells and takes his face
2013B: Eobard causes a particle accelerator explosion
2014B: Barry wakes up as the Flash
2014C: That one episode when Cisco died
2015B: Eddie kills himself; Eobard is never born
2151B: Eobard Thawne is never born
21XXB: Eobard Thawne doesn't go back to the 2020s
2024B: Eobard doesn't show up; he and Barry don't fight and go back to 2000
2000A: Henry and Nora Allen put Barry to bed as usual
2013A: Nothing happens because the particle accelerator isn't built yet
2015A: Eddie asks for a raise; Captain Singh says no
2020A: Harrison Wells successfully activates the particle accelerator
2151A: Eobard Thawne is born
2015R: I have a headache

So yeah. I guess the black hole at the end of the episode is reality coming undone because they're now in a paradox loop linking timelines A/B. My predictions: Our Barry[B] makes it to a stable third timeline D (it's not C; that's the one-day divergent timeline when Cisco died; anyway, timeline D is probably a dystopia, considering how alternate timelines usually work out) via speedster magic (because seriously, super speed has always been the most ridiculous and handwavy of superpowers) and seeks out Cisco[D] (who probably has an eye patch and/or a robot arm, considering how alternate timelines usually work out), who remembers timelines B and C because he's Vibe. He builds a gadget. They reach the Steins;Gate world line where timelines A and B can coexist without a paradox. But now Barry[B] starts to fall out of the timeline because he's not from it. Iris[A/B] has to go back in time to change Barry[A/B]'s past so that Barry[B] and Barry[A/B] are the same person. Wait, I think I'm getting things confused with the world line from another time travel story. :smalltongue:


More importantly does that mean Cisco becomes a superhero in his own right ? And if so, who ?

In the comics the character Cisco Ramon is the hero Vibe. They might do something with that. But how long will I have to wait until Caitlin's villain arc happens?

[Zmeoaice]

But how long will I have to wait until Caitlin's villain arc happens?

Maybe they'll cheat and have Killer Frost be Caitlin from another dimension, so she remains on the good guys side.

[Lizard Lord]

If they called it based on anything but "Green Arrow" it would be fine. But to call it that and give us this trash is an insult to everything the comics ever were.

And he's still not Batman. No matter how long he wishes, very very hard that he was.

Heh. That reminds me I have been watching the Walker Brothers (aka the Nostalgia Critic and his brother Rob) vlogs for Netflix's Daredevil. In one of them Rob mentioned that Daredevil is giving him the Batman he always wanted while the Flash is the Spiderman he always wanted. What are people's thoughts on that (or rather thoughts on the second part since we aren't really here to talk about Daredevil)?

[DiscipleofBob]

Maybe they'll cheat and have Killer Frost be Caitlin from another dimension, so she remains on the good guys side.

Or they could bring in one of the other Killer Frosts from the comics and have it be like an evil version of Firestorm where someone else's mind is walking around in Caitlin's body with ice powers.

[Metahuman1]

I just watched the finally.


So, yeah, who wants to bet that some freaking stupid way, this is gonna be how there gonna absolve Olly? That he had some kind of grand no kill rule the entire time once the timeline dusts settles and as a result he never killed an innocent and he's totally ok, but apart form that everything happened as depicted?

Apart from that, ow, my head hurt after watching that.

Who's betting Eddie ends up as the new reverse flash since we saw his body get sucked into the vortex and we know how Speedforce is about death?

Also, Jay Garrick's Helmet. "What's that?" "That's my cue to leave." I LOVE that his que to get gone was the original flashes costume piece. I would LOVE to have seen Jay Garrick show up to start kicking his butt for screwing with the timeline.



Lastly: Who wants to bet that Cisco is gonna be made a member of the Waveriders?

[dancrilis]

So, yeah, who wants to bet that some freaking stupid way, this is gonna be how there gonna absolve Olly? That he had some kind of grand no kill rule the entire time once the timeline dusts settles and as a result he never killed an innocent and he's totally ok, but apart form that everything happened as depicted?
In fairness he never killed the innocent - he merely killed people for fairly minor misdemeanors without any logical rational behind the deaths.



Apart from that, ow, my head hurt after watching that.

I know your pain.
Particularly as I have noticed that the Eddie could have equally solved the entire problem by deciding not to have children (ignoring the fact that apparently some of his descendent did good work and saved people and he has effectively murdered them also).

[huttj509]

In fairness he never killed the innocent - he merely killed people for fairly minor misdemeanors without any logical rational behind the deaths.


I know your pain.
Particularly as I have noticed that the Eddie could have equally solved the entire problem by deciding not to have children (ignoring the fact that apparently some of his descendent did good work and saved people and he has effectively murdered them also).


Noooo, Eddie! Why didn't you just shoot your balls off?

[TheOldCrow]

I know your pain.
Particularly as I have noticed that the Eddie could have equally solved the entire problem by deciding not to have children (ignoring the fact that apparently some of his descendent did good work and saved people and he has effectively murdered them also).


I think they were going for it to be an impossibility before time would eliminate Eobard, not just an improbability. If that's all it took, Eobard should have erased himself already just by changing things enough that he is messing with Eddie's love life, because unless Eddie was going to have kids by cloning himself, then Eobard may have messed up Eddie's chance to meet great-great-great grandma at the right time.

Eddie could declare that he would never have kids, but then we'd have to hang around for some years while Eddie followed through with his threat before Eobard would get time zapped. Eddie could run out and get a vasectomy, but if Eobard knows any futuristic medicine healing techno-wizardry, that may not be final, like death is, so as long as Eddie is still around then Eobard is not an absolute impossibility.

Time travel is always kind of a mess. I'm not sure where the show is trying to go with it.

[Jayngfet]

I think they were going for it to be an impossibility before time would eliminate Eobard, not just an improbability. If that's all it took, Eobard should have erased himself already just by changing things enough that he is messing with Eddie's love life, because unless Eddie was going to have kids by cloning himself, then Eobard may have messed up Eddie's chance to meet great-great-great grandma at the right time.

Eddie could declare that he would never have kids, but then we'd have to hang around for some years while Eddie followed through with his threat before Eobard would get time zapped. Eddie could run out and get a vasectomy, but if Eobard knows any futuristic medicine healing techno-wizardry, that may not be final, like death is, so as long as Eddie is still around then Eobard is not an absolute impossibility.

Time travel is always kind of a mess. I'm not sure where the show is trying to go with it.

Eddie was expected to reproduce, just clearly not with Iris. If Eobard allowed that marrige to go off it could probably have screwed him up as much as Eddie dying.

[dancrilis]

I think they were going for it to be an impossibility before time would eliminate Eobard, not just an improbability.

......

Time travel is always kind of a mess. I'm not sure where the show is trying to go with it.


It's still not an impossibility, Eddie could be cloned, Eddie could have a twin brother, Eddie could have a double from an alternate timeline (we know this one is actually true, we also know that this double is most likely actually Eobard ancestor).

Time travel is not necessary messy (I think to memory Stargate handled it ok), it is just that The Flash is operating on seemingly inconsistent rules.

[TheOldCrow]

Eddie was expected to reproduce, just clearly not with Iris. If Eobard allowed that marrige to go off it could probably have screwed him up as much as Eddie dying.

I got the feeling that one of the things that Eobard was waiting for was that "Iris West-Allen" byline. I am just saying that once Eobard started changing Eddie's life, even in minor ways, there's a good chance that Eddie won't have the same children even with getting together with the same woman he did in the original timeline.



It's still not an impossibility, Eddie could be cloned, Eddie could have a twin brother, Eddie could have a double from an alternate timeline (we know this one is actually true, we also know that this double is most likely actually Eobard ancestor).

Time travel is not necessary messy (I think to memory Stargate handled it ok), it is just that The Flash is operating on seemingly inconsistent rules.


I think Stargate generally treated people from different timelines as individuals, for the most part, rather than easy substitutes for the real thing. I am not sure what The Flash is going for, yet. Is it one timeline, that gets rewritten? Or is it multiple timelines, and Flash is just abandoning his friends in one to find a more palatable substitute (or, rather, his original friends have already been wiped out by a tsunami, so what the heck why not)? Future Flash hinted that it is one timeline, because he seemed to have continuity with present Flash by knowing what was going on, but then how did Eobard change the past? The Flash time travel does seem an inconsistent mess to me.

[Metahuman1]

In fairness he never killed the innocent - he merely killed people for fairly minor misdemeanors without any logical rational behind the deaths.


I know your pain.
Particularly as I have noticed that the Eddie could have equally solved the entire problem by deciding not to have children (ignoring the fact that apparently some of his descendent did good work and saved people and he has effectively murdered them also).


Sure he did. There is no way your telling me every person working security for every bad guy was in and of themselves a monster, or not just some guy who worked security for a living. That all of them knew and condoned ALL of there bosses behavior.

my position that wow, that got into some REALLY bad implications. I seem to be having a pattern of that the last several days or so in the media I consume as I'm about to drop a web comic I'd been following since near launch over sme really bad implications in the last score or so of daily updates.

[dancrilis]

Sure he did. There is no way your telling me every person working security for every bad guy was in and of themselves a monster, or not just some guy who worked security for a living. That all of them knew and condoned ALL of there bosses behavior.

The way that they are shown is effectively as faceless minions there to intact the evil schemes of there masters (i.e willing to do anything they are asked without remorse, compassion or regret).

[Metahuman1]

Not good enough. Maybe if he hadn't killed them I'd be more forgiving of that. Or if this was a different genera. But it's not.

[LaZodiac]

Concerning Arrow, there is a reason why, when The Flash said "I want to be more like Arrow", the clearest voice of reason on the show say "Arrow's an *******. Don't be him."

Suffice to say Metahuman is right on this one.

[Metahuman1]

*Raises fist for solidarity fist bump with Lazodiac.*

[Hopeless]

Concerning Arrow, there is a reason why, when The Flash said "I want to be more like Arrow", the clearest voice of reason on the show say "Arrow's an *******. Don't be him."

Suffice to say Metahuman is right on this one.

I suspect the Reverse Flash would say,"Hey! Thats my job!!"

Meanwhile Eddie is rescued and healed by Rip aka Rory telling him,"Been there, done that! In case you haven't noticed your descendant is also your namesake kick his a$$!"

[Jayngfet]

Not good enough. Maybe if he hadn't killed them I'd be more forgiving of that. Or if this was a different genera. But it's not.

Agreed. Especially at the point where the entire plan of the villain was "Oliver Queen murders everyone, but he only carries thirty arrows. So I'll hire 31 henchmen." and it works.

[Calemyr]

Okay, so I was an idiot and mistook the previous episode for the finale. Seriously, as amusing as it would have been to just shoot RF in the back and let him die like a sissy, they were never going to do that. Ah well, I still think that would have been fun.

About the actual finale, I'm really hoping that the outcome is a timeline where Harrison Wells as his original good guy self. Tom Cavanagh is too much fun to get rid of, and if Cisco keeps his extratemporal memory it'd be very interesting to see the conflict that would arise as those memories come back. Is Wells still Thawne? How can he trust his mentor when memories of Wells killing him haunt his dreams?

Much as I dislike the concept of suicide, I have to say Eddie went out like a badass. He couldn't shoot the RF, after all. Best case RF simply dodges and mocks him, worst case he pulls someone else (Barry, Joe, Iris) into the line of fire so that Eddie is the one that kills them (since RF is in "**** it, kill 'em all" mode). Eddie had one second to make an irrevocable change to the timeline, and he'd probably been thinking about it since his talk with Stein. Still, it takes serious guts to do something like that, and serious brains to resist the urge to get RF's attention beforehand. There's only one thing that really bothers me about this: given how much emotional abuse he'd taken from RF during his abduction, his actions resemble suicide as much or more than than it does heroic sacrifice. And, as I said, I dislike the concept of suicide. "Change is the essence of breath" and all that.

By the way, is it official that there will be a second season of the Flash? Or is it all getting condensed into Legends of Tomorrow? This rupture would certainly work as the focal point of that, given the trailer for the show.

[Friv]

Concerning Arrow, there is a reason why, when The Flash said "I want to be more like Arrow", the clearest voice of reason on the show say "Arrow's an *******. Don't be him."

Hell, Oliver said that.

It is worth remembering that, theoretically, Oliver hasn't actually killed very many people, as ludicrous as that sounds. In the first season, they kept dropping comments about him landing tons of guards and goons in the hospital, while not ; apparently, taking an arrow in the chest, flipping over a catwalk, and falling twenty feet onto concrete is nonlethal in the Arrowverse.

[comicshorse]

Hell, Oliver said that.

It is worth remembering that, theoretically, Oliver hasn't actually killed very many people, as ludicrous as that sounds. In the first season, they kept dropping comments about him landing tons of guards and goons in the hospital, while not ; apparently, taking an arrow in the chest, flipping over a catwalk, and falling twenty feet onto concrete is nonlethal in the Arrowverse.

There's definitely one episode ('Betrayal' maybe ?) where Detective Lance shows someone a body in the morgue that the Arrow has killed and points out they've had another 30 like this (which considering the number of people he shot is actually still applying comic book physics and biology to the situation)

[Sliver]

I still feel his arrows have a more realistic death count than half of batman's "non-lethal" takedowns.

http://cdn2.cad-comic.com/comics/cad-20090831-54160.jpg

[comicshorse]

On the subject

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=50300