My players hate can't get along.

[sjeshin]

I am very new to DM'ing. I know the rules pretty well, but I'm very new at abritrating them. I've been DM 3 or 4 times now, but only for 2 or 3 sessions. My difficulty is this game is with family. My dad doesn't know how to play, but wants to, and constantly tries to control the other players / make them do what he wants. A lot of his ideas are sound, but some are not. I have talked with him, and it helped... a little. He's headstrong and tries to turn combat encounters into Fire Emblem... he wants to tell everyone where to move to and all that. I'm thinking of just letting him reroll wizard / conjurer so he can just make his own minions AND control the battlefield. Short of that, I don't know how to bring a group together with a shy but high charisma sorcerer who is supposed to be the party face, my wife the ranger and only experienced player(who really just does whatever she can to bring the group together) and my sister who is the rogue, and just wants to be allowed to be all sneaky sneaky without my dad saying "check every square for traps in that 20" wide, 60" long tunnel!) Do I really need to remove my dad from the game?

[Red Fel]

I am very new to DM'ing. I know the rules pretty well, but I'm very new at abritrating them. I've been DM 3 or 4 times now, but only for 2 or 3 sessions. My difficulty is this game is with family. My dad doesn't know how to play, but wants to, and constantly tries to control the other players / make them do what he wants. A lot of his ideas are sound, but some are not. I have talked with him, and it helped... a little. He's headstrong and tries to turn combat encounters into Fire Emblem... he wants to tell everyone where to move to and all that. I'm thinking of just letting him reroll wizard / conjurer so he can just make his own minions AND control the battlefield. Short of that, I don't know how to bring a group together with a shy but high charisma sorcerer who is supposed to be the party face, my wife the ranger and only experienced player(who really just does whatever she can to bring the group together) and my sister who is the rogue, and just wants to be allowed to be all sneaky sneaky without my dad saying "check every square for traps in that 20" wide, 60" long tunnel!) Do I really need to remove my dad from the game?

A hard thing to realize is that a DM wears many hats. One is the hat of friend or family member - the hat you wear everyday anyway. Another is the person in charge of a social event - which tabletop gaming is. It's a social event and it should be fun for everyone involved. The third hat of mention is the Final Word - the DM must be willing to set out standards for table conduct, and to impose consequences for violations of those standards.

This third hat can often be a bitter pill to swallow, because there are times that it conflicts with the other two. There are times that being the Final Word at the table means imposing consequences on a friend, or ruining one person's fun for the sake of the rest of the table. It's hard; there's no nice way to frame it.

What you have to do, as DM, is determine where your priorities are. If your goal is to get the family together for an activity, you're doing that. If your goal is to ensure that everyone has fun... Well, you haven't said that they aren't, you've simply said that your father tends to try to control the table.

You say you've already taken your father aside, and you say that it's helped, a little. That's good. Now you have to determine if his conduct is disruptive to the rest of the table. If everyone seems to be doing just fine, if they're either following his advice or enjoying themselves despite it, I don't think his conduct is an issue.

If, however, you find that his conduct is disruptive, that it ruins other players' fun or results in arguments or hurt feelings, you need to have another talk with him. If this is the case, you need to explain to him your position. Tell him that you relish the fact that he wants to be part of this, and that you want him to be a part of it. But advise him that despite being the patriarch in his everyday life, he is not the leader at the table. Remind him that this is a collaborative game, and that unless the rest of the players nominate him leader, he really shouldn't be acting as if he were.

If he continues to try to improve, help him. Work out a secret signal so you can caution him during gameplay without embarrassing him. Come up with scenarios where he can vent his desire to control minions (your minionmancer suggestion is potentially a good one). Basically, if he keeps trying to get better, you should do what you can to help him.

But if problems continue... You have to decide what your priorities are. It's not really a call anybody else can make for you.

[KillianHawkeye]

^ This guy knows what he's talking about.

[sjeshin]

A hard thing to realize is that a DM wears many hats. One is the hat of friend or family member - the hat you wear everyday anyway. Another is the person in charge of a social event - which tabletop gaming is. It's a social event and it should be fun for everyone involved. The third hat of mention is the Final Word - the DM must be willing to set out standards for table conduct, and to impose consequences for violations of those standards.

This third hat can often be a bitter pill to swallow, because there are times that it conflicts with the other two. There are times that being the Final Word at the table means imposing consequences on a friend, or ruining one person's fun for the sake of the rest of the table. It's hard; there's no nice way to frame it.

What you have to do, as DM, is determine where your priorities are. If your goal is to get the family together for an activity, you're doing that. If your goal is to ensure that everyone has fun... Well, you haven't said that they aren't, you've simply said that your father tends to try to control the table.

You say you've already taken your father aside, and you say that it's helped, a little. That's good. Now you have to determine if his conduct is disruptive to the rest of the table. If everyone seems to be doing just fine, if they're either following his advice or enjoying themselves despite it, I don't think his conduct is an issue.

If, however, you find that his conduct is disruptive, that it ruins other players' fun or results in arguments or hurt feelings, you need to have another talk with him. If this is the case, you need to explain to him your position. Tell him that you relish the fact that he wants to be part of this, and that you want him to be a part of it. But advise him that despite being the patriarch in his everyday life, he is not the leader at the table. Remind him that this is a collaborative game, and that unless the rest of the players nominate him leader, he really shouldn't be acting as if he were.

If he continues to try to improve, help him. Work out a secret signal so you can caution him during gameplay without embarrassing him. Come up with scenarios where he can vent his desire to control minions (your minionmancer suggestion is potentially a good one). Basically, if he keeps trying to get better, you should do what you can to help him.

But if problems continue... You have to decide what your priorities are. It's not really a call anybody else can make for you.

I really appreciate this reply. I'm going to see how that goes. It's hard because he is absolutely ruining their fun, and my main goal is that all players continue to play. I will talk with him some more, and see what I can do. Thank you for the advice.

[Seclora]

I really appreciate this reply. I'm going to see how that goes. It's hard because he is absolutely ruining their fun, and my main goal is that all players continue to play. I will talk with him some more, and see what I can do. Thank you for the advice.

I would like to see more DMs express this sentiment. Best of luck to you!

[Phelix-Mu]

-snip-

Red Fel uses wisdom.

Wisdom is super effective.

*ahem*

Props here for sound advice on all fronts. Could not have said it better myself, and it is a frame of mind that many a DM should bear in mind during the game (myself included).

I wish I could award Red Fel something, but I'm basically out of most of the useful stuff....*rummages through bag of holding*

Ah, here you go. A cookie made of gold stars and bearing the power of +1 internets.

Use in good health.

:smallsmile:

[atemu1234]

When players don't get along, remove the problem and put the problem in a different group. It works better.

[Segev]

It sounds like you've got as much a handle on this as possible at this stage. I don't know what your dad's response was (other than "it helped a little") to your talking with him; have you asked him why he engages in that behavior, or was the conversation more about letting him know it was a problem? Both are important; the latter because sometimes people just don't know. That it helped a little means he listened, but that it hasn't resolved means there's something about what he wants out of the game that is driving it.

If you can discover what that is - and maybe asking him what it is he likes about the game and what he envisions himself and others doing when he plays will help you do this - you might be able to find alternative ways (particularly with his cooperation) to get him what he's looking for without annoying the other players. Note, when I talk about what he envisions himself and others doing, I don't just mean what his imagination shows him of the game; I mean both that and what it is he thinks of himself, the player, and the other players doing when he thinks "I'm going to play the game tonight." What is his idea of the game as an activity? How does he play, and why?

Your idea about having him re-roll a minionmancer god-wizard may be a solution, if you've correctly identified the root desire he has for the game. I warn you that these can take a lot of time at the table and be a problem of their own; you may want to start him with 1-2 minions only if possible, and to find ways for the other players to participate during his multiple effective turns. The risk, in other words, is trading the problem of him ruining others' fun by telling them what to do to damaging others' fun by taking far more time on his turns (or simply more turns) than everybody else, thus making them have 3 minutes of play to every 20 of his (to throw some numbers out there).

[danzibr]

Remind him to speak in character, and only on his turn, and limit how much he can say (duration-wise). Should help with the telling-everyone-exactly-what-to-do thing.

[Jermz]

Seconding Danzibr here. Staying in character and playing within the realms of character knowledge is not easy, but it could easily help out in this situation.

If his character isn't around, or isn't aware of the circumstances, then he shouldn't be able to tell the rogue what to do, since his character doesn't know what's happening. Similarly, in battle he is also limited to telling people what to do, based on his character's knowledge, positioning, situation and more. If he's the target of a hold person spell, for example, he can't go around telling the other characters what to do, since he obviously can't talk.

This is much easier said than done, to be sure, but it's something that you should consider. In addition, you've said that he doesn't know how to play. I'm not sure that making a minionmancer for him or a god-wizard would be a good idea. Let him first get the hang of the basics before starting him off with all the summoning options.

Good luck!

J

Edit - also, something is wrong with your title and I'd suggest renaming the thread to make more sense. :)