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Sutremaine
2007-03-14, 04:19 PM
Rolled stats: 9 (Con), 11 (Str), 11 (Wis), 15 (Int), 15 (Dex), 17 (Cha)
Ability raises: ? for levels, ? for inherent (number of skill points presumes a raise to 16 Int at CL16)
Feats: 11, see below for details
Classes: Rogue, Fighter, Duelist, Bard (R2,B4,F2,R1,F1,R1,F1,D3,B4,D1)
Skill points: 200
Skills: Tumble, Hide, Perform, and Listen are planned for maxing, with Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, and Spellcraft/UMD (I can't decide which to go for) a little way behind. 5 ranks in Balance and Jump, and those Fighter levels suggest a crash course in Climb might be in order. I'm having real difficulty with doling out the points -- either I forget what my current class skills are, or I forget to work on something important (or not. How many ranks do I really need in Concentration?).

Potential feats: Dodge and Mobility (preresquisites for Duelist), Weapon Finesse, Spring Attack, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative (taken early). I'd like to get some archery feats in too, but I'm really not sure what to go for. Possibly PBS-Far Shot/ Precise Shot, but those might have to wait.

Spell selection (partial): Utility spells all the way, as my caster level isn't anything to write home about and by the time I get certain spell levels items should be affordable enough.

0th (acquired at CL3)
Prestidigitation, Ghost Sound, Message

1st (CL4)
Grease, Expeditious Retreat, Cure Light Wounds (swap out once items are freely available)

2nd (CL6)
Locate Object, Glitterdust, Minor Image, Mirror Image (lots of interesting spells at this level, I think)

3rd (CL18... yeah)
Sculpt Sound, Tiny Hut (I can't think of anything else that would benefit from being permanently available and (eventually) from a high caster level. Slow, maybe, if there isn't a pure arcane caster around)

Certainly not an optimal build, but I want to see what can be done with the idea and I can't get it to hang together.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-14, 04:28 PM
Do you need rogue? If its flvor fine, but ruge and bard overlap a bit too much, and it would be better to have more bard levels.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-14, 04:34 PM
9 CON is never a good idea. Ever. Be a human, settle for 11 INT, 9 WIS or STR, and 15 CON. Swap your Dex and your CHA, too, if you're planning to melee.

Overall, though, this build doesn't actually do anything. What are you trying to get it to do? I mean, "bard/duelist" isn't a character idea, it's a build idea... that doesn't work. What do you want the character to be able to do?

Generic PC
2007-03-14, 10:51 PM
I agree with bear... also, why do you need four classes? im sure this build would function better with only one base class, so that you arent focusing on more than half your skills (Dex for Rogue, Cha for Bard, Str and Con for Fighter.) I believe a good saying here would be choose one thing to excel in rather than being moderate in many. My cent and a half...

Draz74
2007-03-14, 11:35 PM
Maybe stick with Rogue 2 / Swashbuckler 3 / Bard 15?

This still won't be as powerful as a well-build pureclass character, but it seems to capture the flavor you're looking for, without getting TOO mixed up about what kind of character it's trying to be.

Sutremaine
2007-03-15, 07:17 PM
9 CON is never a good idea. Ever. Be a human, settle for 11 INT, 9 WIS or STR, and 15 CON. Swap your Dex and your CHA, too, if you're planning to melee[I].
15 Con seems kind of excessive. Is it really that necessary to have it at at least +1?

I'm trying to get a Bard that's not so squishy, mobile, sneaky, and able to fight a little when push comes to shove. How much detail do you need?


I agree with bear... also, why do you need four classes? im sure this build would function better with only one base class, so that you arent focusing on more than half your skills (Dex for Rogue, Cha for Bard, Str and Con for Fighter.) I believe a good saying here would be choose one thing to excel in rather than being moderate in many. My cent and a half...
I'm new to this, so everything is still interesting. I'd have added levels in Kitchen Sink if I thought it had neat features. Rogue 4 was for Uncanny Dodge, Fighter 4 was for feats (and potential Weapon Spec., and for avoiding XP penalties), Duelist (which I was planning on taking to 9 or 10) was for flavour and some combat ability, and Bard is the primary class. Or at least, it's supposed to be.


Maybe stick with Rogue 2 / Swashbuckler 3 / Bard 15?

This still won't be as powerful as a well-build pureclass character, but it seems to capture the flavor you're looking for, without getting TOO mixed up about what kind of character it's trying to be.
Yeah, Evasion is one of the things I really want to keep. Swashbuckler and Duelist have the same kind of flavour, but most of the Duelist features are either dependant on the number of class levels, or only work without shield or armour.

Draz74
2007-03-15, 07:32 PM
I'm trying to get a Bard that's not so squishy, mobile, sneaky, and able to fight a little when push comes to shove. How much detail do you need?[/quote

The problem is, the bard of RAW is really better at everything else than he is at fighting. He can be a decent skill monkey, arcane caster, or healer, more easily than he can be a melee type. However, if you get your Con up enough, you won't be squishy anymore. Basically what I'm saying is that a Bard needs much better-than-average ability scores to be equally effective.

[quote]
I'm new to this, so everything is still interesting. I'd have added levels in Kitchen Sink if I thought it had neat features. Rogue 4 was for Uncanny Dodge, Fighter 4 was for feats (and potential Weapon Spec., and for avoiding XP penalties), Duelist (which I was planning on taking to 9 or 10) was for flavour and some combat ability, and Bard is the primary class. Or at least, it's supposed to be.

And therein lies the problem: Bard isn't the primary class anymore. I mean, you can only get 2 levels of it if you are a Fighter 4/Rogue 4/Duelist 10. And even 8 levels of Bard doesn't really make you a very good bard.



Yeah, Evasion is one of the things I really want to keep. Swashbuckler and Duelist have the same kind of flavour, but most of the Duelist features are either dependant on the number of class levels, or only work without shield or armour.

Evasion is a very good thing for a bard to keep, I agree. That's why I left Rogue 2 in your levels. (Sneak Attack +1d6 is nice and flavorful too, though not worth going to much effort to "set up" the use of.)

I still recommend Rogue 2 / Swashbuckler 3 / Bard 15 if you want a scoundrelly sneaky melee-friendly bard.

Rama_Lei
2007-03-15, 09:13 PM
Also, choose some buff spells. Wade into combat while sneak attacking and buffing. also, helaing. Huzah.

Darrin
2007-03-15, 10:32 PM
Yeah, Evasion is one of the things I really want to keep. Swashbuckler and Duelist have the same kind of flavour, but most of the Duelist features are either dependant on the number of class levels, or only work without shield or armour.

You can get Evasion via another PrC, like Spelldancer (Magic of Faerun, 3.0 unfortunately). The problem with Swashbuckler/Duelist is their bonuses are Int based, and Bards are Charisma casters. You'll get much better synergy out of a Charisma-based PrC. For example, use Arcane Duellist instead of Duellist:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a

Mystic Wanderer (Magic of Faerun again, likewise 3.0) also adds Cha to AC, and gives you a familiar at level 2 if you're looking for bloodline or sorcerer-specific feats/PrCs.

BWL recently posted a link to the "X stat to Y bonus" thread, check that for other ideas on how to reduce MAD and maximize your Cha bonus:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=320889

Jewish_Joke
2007-03-15, 10:59 PM
This thread would do really well on the Wizard's character optimization boards, although as far as criticism goes, they put Bears with Lasers to shame...

I myself agree with Rama_Lei. Much of the Bard's strength comes from his/her spell selection, and buffs will give you all the dex/cha you could want. Healing is imperative, but easily capable with wands. Investing in a few levels of Rogue isn't a bad idea (you still have perform as a class skill) and you gain the infinitely useful evasion. As far as stats go, you could swap your Wis and Dex scores, seeing as how Bards get good will saves. Don't really need a high strength score, especially considering Draz's well-thought swashbuckler suggestion. I also suggest investing in a prestige class (other than Duelist, which I find useless for such a magic-oriented class such as the bard), such as the Sublime Chord (access to 9th-lvl spells! :smallbiggrin:), or warchanter for a more melee-friendly bard.

That's all I got.

Telonius
2007-03-16, 09:39 AM
15 Con seems kind of excessive. Is it really that necessary to have it at at least +1?

I'm trying to get a Bard that's not so squishy, mobile, sneaky, and able to fight a little when push comes to shove. How much detail do you need?


I'm new to this, so everything is still interesting. I'd have added levels in Kitchen Sink if I thought it had neat features. Rogue 4 was for Uncanny Dodge, Fighter 4 was for feats (and potential Weapon Spec., and for avoiding XP penalties), Duelist (which I was planning on taking to 9 or 10) was for flavour and some combat ability, and Bard is the primary class. Or at least, it's supposed to be.


Yeah, Evasion is one of the things I really want to keep. Swashbuckler and Duelist have the same kind of flavour, but most of the Duelist features are either dependant on the number of class levels, or only work without shield or armour.

Bard1/Rogue19, with a bunch of ranks in Perform, maybe? Bard6/Fighter4/Rogue10?
Fighter4/Marshal 16?

If your character isn't supposed to be all about the mechanical uses of bardic music and the Bard spells, taking levels in the Bard class aren't all that necessary, or even advisable. If you just want a guy that's really good at playing the xylophone, give him ranks in perform (xylophone). You don't need the Bard class for that.

Sutremaine
2007-03-16, 08:21 PM
I also suggest investing in a prestige class (other than Duelist, which I find useless for such a magic-oriented class such as the bard), such as the Sublime Chord (access to 9th-lvl spells! ), or warchanter for a more melee-friendly bard.
Duelist is off the menu then. While I might be starting with high Int, boosting that as well as Cha and Dex is impractical. Sublime Chord sounds good, but I don't have access to it (only recently picked up the core books).

I've done some looking around, and I have three rough ideas.

Rogue 2/Bard 12/Duskblade 1/Eldritch Knight 5
BAB +16, Fort 10/Ref 12/Will 11, base HP 6+18d6+1d8 (64)
Evasion, trapfinding, sneak attack 1d6, couple of Duskblade spells, couple of low-level spells as spell-like abilities, Bard abilities at level 12, arcane casting at level 17.
Epic progression: Bard, maybe a couple of Duskblade levels if they're still useful.

I quite like this one. I lose a couple of bardic music abilities and a chunk of Bardic Knowledge, but I gain more spells (two of which I was planning on having anyway). Nice saves, too.
Rogue 2/Bard 14/Swashbuckler 1/Arcane Duelist 3
BAB +13, Fort 7/Ref 15/Will 12, base HP 6+15d6+3d8+1d10 (68)
Evasion, trapfinding, sneak attack 1d6, free Weapon Finesse, chosen weapon, enchant weapon (+1), apparent defence, dexterous attack, Bard abilities and arcane casting at level 14.
Epic progression: Mixture of Bard and Arcane Duelist.

This one has some potential in a more urban setting, but I might as well swap the Bard levels for Sorcerer levels.
Rogue 2/Bard 18
BAB +14, Fort 6/Ref 14/Will 11, base HP 6+19d6 (63)
Evasion, trapfinding, sneak attack 1d6, Bard abilities and arcane casting at level 18.
Epic progression: Bard.

In which I bow to the inevitable and end up with a Bard with natural evasion.

What I'm after is a character with the Bard skills of buffing, morale-boosting, and social interaction, with a side-order of sneaking*. Combat-wise, I'm after someone who can contribute a little without spells or songs, even if it's just for flanking or for tumbling around and providing healing and buffs.

I think I'll swap Str and Con, but I'm not sure about Dex and Cha.

Finally, a quick question. Does mithral medium armour carry a chance of spell failure for classes that can cast freely in light armour, and does it affect character speed?

(*Hide only -- there are far more anti-invisibility spells than there are anti-silence spells.)

Draz74
2007-03-16, 09:43 PM
Finally, a quick question. Does mithral medium armour carry a chance of spell failure for classes that can cast freely in light armour, and does it affect character speed?

Nope -- mithral medium armor counts as light armor for both of these things. And for proficiency, and for Evasion, ... etc.