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TOAOMT
2007-03-14, 04:35 PM
Alright, this isn't so much about me but about someone who I'm trying to help in his first time DMing.

My friend has played in a few of my games and asked me to be a player in his first DM experience. Remembering my first run as a master I was supportive, trying to warn him of some of the classic first time DM pitfalls such as the GMPC, overdependance on dice, focusing too much on minute details, railroading, etc. The idea being that maybe he'd be able to step around things that I fell into my first time DMing.

So by the end of my first play session, I had learned about the warrior king whose power level was far beyond cosmic, numerous other NPCs who would do about half the fighting for us, and Villain NPCs whose power scale made them beyond an appropriate challenge rating.

Also, it was a seven hour session, two hours were spent rolling dice that had no major effect on the game but determined things like "You trip and fall," "A guy in the tavern vomits on you," and so on, at least an hour of which went into the in-depth description of the meal we ate at the inn we stopped in along the road, and a half an hour of which was spent arguing with the DM that my character had no reason to throw away the stick that he believed to be a clue as to what we were investigating just because my character tends to be undedicated.

Overall, I lost interest in this session early on. I still want to be supportive but when I talked to him he argued vehemently that I didn't know what I was talking about (I have been DMing since 14, and am now 19 for reference). From a DM standpoint, would my continued presence shift his mentality or would it be pointless and easier to just drop the game on the basis of "Laws should be passed preventing you from DMing."

Assassinfox
2007-03-14, 04:41 PM
Drop the game AND get those laws passed.

Inyssius Tor
2007-03-14, 04:57 PM
I would give him two more sessions.
Wait five hours and ten pages of people here siding with you, then get the other players together and refer him here.
First, the challenge rating system isn't... exactly the most intuitive thing on earth; I would stick around for more than four sessions if this was the only problem.
Second: how do the other players feel about this over-flavoring problem of his (and possibly the NPCs who do all your work)? Talk to them, and if they agree then have all of you talk to him simultaneously outside of the regular game.
Third: Add my support to the loads of people who will say that he can. not. EVER. tell you that your character will not do what you say he does. You know your personality traits. That is the one thing he cannot mess with. Unless you have something like six points total invested in your mental attributes. Then he can do that.

Dark
2007-03-14, 04:57 PM
I think the best way to be supportive is to drop the game. Otherwise you'll just show him that his style works.

If he wants you back later, ask him what happened in the previous session. This can be done innocently (after all, you need to get back up to speed), and it will tell you whether his style has changed.

I don't think you can keep him from stepping into the same stuff you did. There are no rules for one character giving experience to another :)

kellandros
2007-03-14, 05:16 PM
The biggest thing(I think) to learn about being a DM is that you are not the author of this story. The players have a HUGE effect on what will actually turn out. I've put off DMing for a few years because of my own problems with making a coherent story that can survive player decisions.

And there are always some things you have to learn by failing. A good DM makes most of this look easy- everything looks planned and prepared. Without trying it yourself, you can't know the amount of work and preparation that are involved.

For someone just getting started DMing they should start simpler. I personally wouldn't let someone play a spellcaster immediately; there are just too many mechanics and pitfalls if you don't know how the class is supposed to work. I would suggest offering him a pre-made module or adventure to run(could go out to a gaming store with him and try to pick one the players haven't tried yet). Seeing a professionally made adventure can serve as a wonderful example of how things should work(plans for player actions, limited scale NPCs, properly balanced fights).

Saph
2007-03-14, 06:40 PM
I was actually in a very similar situation to this a month ago.

New DM. Mixed group, some newbies, some vets, 6 people total. The GM was running a 4th-level campaign and just didn't have the knack. Encounters were way out of balance - we'd beat encounters of level 5-9 without even trying all that hard, and everything took forever because the GM would get sidetracked with every OOC comment. The plot was railroaded and the NPCs were boring. Worst of all, half the game was taken up with snail-paced combats that were completely unchallenging.

I stuck it out for 4 sessions to see if it would improve. It didn't, so I quit. GMs do get better over time and learn from their mistakes, but it takes a long time - it's not going to happen from week to week while you're playing in his campaign. In the end, if you're not having fun, you just have to leave with as little bad feeling as possible.

- Saph

Diggorian
2007-03-14, 07:02 PM
It's been my experience that DMs are best trained like Jedi, one-on-one direct instruction by an experienced DM they know and trust.

That's how I learned, choosing to sit out playing a few game sessions to sit behind the screen and ask questions of my DM. Learn the rules by playing enough and reading the book, but try to run a game just like your master. When you can smoothly simulate your DM, your ready to explore other styles and techniques.

It didnt take me very long, but I'm a very creative type. All a good DM needs is A) Knowledge of the game rules, B) Imagination, C) the desire to entertain people ... a copy of Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering wouldnt hurt either (only $8 here). (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG30-3009)

Dervag
2007-03-14, 07:24 PM
It didnt take me very long, but I'm a very creative type. All a good DM needs is A) Knowledge of the game rules, B) Imagination, C) the desire to entertain people ... a copy of Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering wouldnt hurt either (only $8 here). (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG30-3009)I seem to recall there also being a 'DMing for Dummies' book. Since the 'for Dummies' series is well-written, well-organized, and widely trusted, it might be a good bet.

Galathir
2007-03-14, 07:45 PM
I know that when I started DMing about a year ago I wasn't the greatest. However, after running a campaign, several short adventures, and now a second campaign, I can look back and see how much I have improved. (to the point of keeping three highly distractable people entertained for hours at a time) I would give your DM a chance. Perhaps he needs some more time watching a good DM or even just playing a PC. The DMG II also has some good material for creating adventures.

JadedDM
2007-03-14, 09:48 PM
Did the other players enjoy themselves? Or did they dislike the same things you disliked?

Maxymiuk
2007-03-15, 03:34 AM
And there are always some things you have to learn by failing. A good DM makes most of this look easy- everything looks planned and prepared. Without trying it yourself, you can't know the amount of work and preparation that are involved.

Strangely enough, I believe I learned my GMing from playing under bad GM's more than from anything else. Whenever I'd have to suffer through yet another bland, or even downright tedious session, I'd sort of fade into the background with my character, and sit there silently evaluating the GM, thinking things like He's not paying enough attention to those two players or I'd pace this fragment diffrently and This part right there is just unnecessary. So once I took up the GM screen...

...all that pretty much went out the window and I made a bunch of elementary mistakes. One thing I did remember to do though was to after the game ask my players for comments, criticisms, and impressions on how I could improve as a GM. Which parts were too slow, which ones did I railroad, and most importantly, did they have fun.

Listen to your players, people, especially on that last account - it's the whole point of the game. :smallamused:

Galathir
2007-03-15, 04:28 AM
Quite true, Maxymiuk. My very first introduction to D&D was with a friend of my roommate as the DM. He was an amazing storyteller and plot builder, but not that great of a DM. I found out later that he never actually played as a PC, which would explain some of the things he did. We were essentially given the chance to play a character in one of his stories, but regardless, it was his story, not ours. We only died when he wanted us to, and we were railroaded like crazy. Amazingly high level NPC's did most of the work while our party watched and cleaned up afterwards.

This sounds almost like your DM, Toaomt. Perhaps he doesn't really understand the balance between his plot and the PC's. As Maxymiuk said, the DM really needs to listen to the players, because if they aren't having fun, then the whole game is pointless.

PnP Fan
2007-03-15, 08:28 AM
Don't forget the social dynamic in all of this. I'm assuming you are friends with the new DM, or at least he thinks well enough of you to ask you into the game to give him guidance. If, first game out of the gate, you tell him that he's a lousy GM, it's gotta hurt, especially if he's really worked hard. Even if you were somewhat tactful when you told him, if all he's receiving is negative feedback, then he's got no idea of what direction to go in. Find the good things about his game (their had to be something) and compliment him on that. Don't tell him about all of the negative stuff at once, if he's insecure/nervouse at all (and he probably is if he asked you to be there), talking about ALL of the negative things will feel like an attack. Pick the two most painful things, and talk about those. Even better, make it less subjective, and more objective. Watch the other players and see what they react poorly to. Their is a big difference between, "I thought the meal scene was dull and over descriptive" and "I noticed that folks started yawning during the meal scene, you might want to cut back on the description." The former is highly subjective, the second is an observation and interpretation of facts. Give it a few sessions, at least 3 or 4. The guy asked you to be there for a reason, so he's either a friend, or he respects you, return the respect. If he's still fighting and arguing after a few sessions, then you can go and find something better to do.

Ranis
2007-03-15, 09:45 AM
One thing I did remember to do though was to after the game ask my players for comments, criticisms, and impressions on how I could improve as a GM. Which parts were too slow, which ones did I railroad, and most importantly, did they have fun.

Listen to your players, people, especially on that last account - it's the whole point of the game. :smallamused:

I ask this of my players at the end of every session and inbetween them. They are my single greatest asset towards becoming a better DM myself. If your GM is unable to grasp that, then there is no reason you need to be in that group.

valadil
2007-03-15, 09:54 AM
*shrug* Sounds like what your friend really needs to grok is that the PCs are the star of the show. Putting uber powerful enemies in there and letting the PCs know how uber powerful they are just goes to make the PCs feel unimportant. Granted, it can be done to positive effect (I made sure my players knew the town guard was better than them and they realized that encounters with guards were about escaping rather than fighting - it made for a very different type of encounter, which is always nice, and it was more meaningful when they did finally confront the guards), but I was fully aware of what I was doing and why, rather than stretching my authoritah.

As far as rolling too many dice and taking too long on meaningless stuff goes, it'll wear off in time. The GM just needs practice figuring out what is fun to play. Roleplaying out the encounter with the town drunk and his projectile vomit is kinda cute once or twice, but it's hardly going to happen every session and your GM ought to figure that out after a few games.

TOAOMT
2007-03-15, 12:35 PM
Thank you guys for the input.

As far as my relationship with the new DM, he's been a player in my games for a while, specifically in the time frame when ALL the DMing, GMing, Storytelling, etc. was left to me. He's also my roommate and very close friend.

His DMing style, as he claims, is an attempt to take the best from the various people that he's played under, unfortunately, he didn't do it well. He took my (apparently common, which is good to hear) method of asking for feedback after a session, however he tends to argue and tell the player that he's wrong after he gets feedback that isn't "I enjoyed it."

The other players haven't voiced up much complaint, which is reassuring, but the facial expression during the game was very dull and uninterested. I also worry that he's using it to show off his own talents as a storyteller rather than make the game fun, such as when our encounter with the hip-hop themed villain NPCs consisted largely of the DM beatboxing to us to describe their actions as well as telling us proudly how impressed our PCs were with the way the NPCs executed things.

Oh, for more info that I may have left out, we're using the Exalted system as a base but apparently he decided to houserule a lot of things. I realized when I said DM people would think D&D, but it's come to be a generic term for me.

It also doesn't help that the DM hasn't really read the book.

THanks again, this is helping me decide how to confront my friend about how he runs his game without him getting horrendously angry (he seems to value his ego above all else), since I have to live with him.

valadil
2007-03-15, 12:46 PM
Heh, I also had a roommate run a game that disappointed. The difference was that he seemed happy to have our feedback. Basically what I said then and what you should say now is that even though your roommate did a great job performing for the group, the PCs should be in the spotlight. You can't have a very interactive game if the GM is always the star of the show. The PCs expect to be in the spotlight in an interactive game, so even if his performance is awesome, you'll have a game that didn't live up to player's expectations, which is never fun to play in.

If your GM can manage to do all the extra stuff that he seems to have a natural talent for, while GMing a game that still lets the PCs be the main attraction, he ought to develop into a pretty damn good GM one day.

TOAOMT
2007-03-15, 01:33 PM
Well, perhaps I misstated. He doesn't have a natural talent for performing or these other things, but he won't listen if you suggest he cut it down. I skipped the last session but he says it got better, note... HE says. I'm planning to ask the other players what they thought and if it really has, then we'll see.

Bender
2007-03-15, 02:14 PM
His DMing style, as he claims, is an attempt to take the best from the various people that he's played under, unfortunately, he didn't do it well. He took my (apparently common, which is good to hear) method of asking for feedback after a session, however he tends to argue and tell the player that he's wrong after he gets feedback that isn't "I enjoyed it."

Some people react that way initially, begin to think about the feedback afterwards, accept it and try to do something about that (regretfully, I occasionally act this way :smallredface:, so I know). Of course, some people don't, but you might give him another chance.

cheers

Diggorian
2007-03-15, 03:59 PM
Well, perhaps I misstated. He doesn't have a natural talent for performing or these other things, but he won't listen if you suggest he cut it down. I skipped the last session but he says it got better, note... HE says. I'm planning to ask the other players what they thought and if it really has, then we'll see.

Do that. I dont say quit on him because it's just too early. Observe and note your critiques.You know him and I dont but his type likely gets defensive/stubborn in a group. I'd keep the specific criticisms from the other players anonymous and deal with him one on one.

A DM is measured by the fun he creates/encourages, if the other players arent enjoying his games it's a hard point for him to refute. He's got to orient his goals to that truth, if he doesnt he should quit.

If you can break him down to a point where he asks for help step up, TOAOMT. Have him run solo encounters just for you and show him his mistakes point by point. Show him how to leave room for PC action and even hinge plot points on it.

Ofcourse, if he is too proud dont put yourself out. Some just have to learn the hard way.

TOAOMT
2007-03-15, 04:20 PM
Good advice. I hadn't thought of one-on-one so much.

He has asked for advice, the thing is after asking he tells me my advice is wrong. He also seems to see the players not enjoying his game as a problem with the players, not with his DM style.

Then again, I'm the only one that's voiced anything, maybe it is just me. And after all, if everyone else is enjoying the game then he's doing a fine job, all technicalities aside I believe someone is a good DM if their players are enjoying the game.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-15, 04:38 PM
I really second talking to him in person about it. A good DM should be flexible anyway, and open to suggestions from his own players. I mean, this guy's your friend, right? At least give him the benefit of the doubt and talk to him, buddy to buddy.

TOAOMT
2007-03-16, 01:16 PM
Well, on the bright side the problems seem mostly repaired. One of the players is another regular DM who he asked for advice. After the DM gave him the EXACT same advice as me, he has apparently listened. I think his game runs next Tuesday, I just might give it a second shot.

Though from what I hear from the players, he's got a new problem, something I call "Pet-Player Syndrome." Any ideas on how to break a DM of this (Actually I know a lot of DMs to do it... I probably do it without realizing it and as such, maybe this advice will help me.)

Diggorian
2007-03-16, 01:24 PM
What is the "Pet-Player Syndrome"?

Matthew
2007-03-16, 06:42 PM
Probably lavishing too much attention on one Player at the expense of the group.

TOAOMT
2007-03-17, 05:04 AM
Exactly. The "My best friend is in this game, he'll be playing the role of main character by the way" aspect of things.

Ranis
2007-03-17, 08:39 AM
Eew, that sucks. That sounds like the opposite of the game I'm in currently. My DM's best friend has bit the dust three times more than anyone else; I think he's died like.....9 times.

Diggorian
2007-03-17, 01:44 PM
Exactly. The "My best friend is in this game, he'll be playing the role of main character by the way" aspect of things.

Ah. Hmmm.

I'm thinking this may correct itself once he learns to get his ego in check and become interested in shifting the spotlight off of his favorite PC to give the others some stage time. He's a long way from making B and C stories branching from the main plot.

manda_babylon
2007-03-27, 09:35 PM
Though from what I hear from the players, he's got a new problem, something I call "Pet-Player Syndrome." Any ideas on how to break a DM of this (Actually I know a lot of DMs to do it... I probably do it without realizing it and as such, maybe this advice will help me.)

We had a game nearly fall apart once due to a GM who suffered from this problem. He despised my characters and all of their actions, but he absolutely adored out friend's characters. [These were two loosely-connected D20 Modern games]

In the first game, my Lawful Good priest, who had an 18 in Charisma rolled a diplomacy check to convince an army platoon that we were not hostile, and to not attack us. The DMPC accused my character of being a pedophile, despite the fact that I rolled a natural 20, plus my modifier and my ranks in the skill. The DC was 15, and I rolled a total of 28. Our friend's character, who was an impulsive Chaotic Evil character, rolled to attack the much larger DMPC, who then declared that he wanted to have sex with said character.

It got to the point where the DMCPs, including the main villain, were concocting scenarios in which they threw lavish parties for this character, and did thinks like hug the player constantly and give her rerolls when she botched, to telling me that my gun malfunctioned and wouldn't allow me to fight because the high-level attack roll would have killed a character that the DM wanted to keep around.

It was obvious that this guy was actually in love with the player, and she eventually told him to leave her alone, or she would refuse to continue to be his friend. She is engaged, and he had a girl friend at the time.

He needs to learn that every character is equally important, and that rolls must mean the same for every character. Otherwise, the favored character's player should refuse to play his game, since nothing hurts a person trying to get in good with someone more than them outright refusing to be a part of it.

Jayabalard
2007-03-28, 12:53 AM
Third: Add my support to the loads of people who will say that he can. not. EVER. tell you that your character will not do what you say he does. You know your personality traits. That is the one thing he cannot mess with. Unless you have something like six points total invested in your mental attributes. Then he can do that.I'll disagree for a few very specific situations:

As you said, low mental attributes; he holds veto power over you acting too far over your character's abilities.
This works the other way; if your character has an 18 int/wis/charasima and your acting like an idiot, he should point this out to you and suggest that you were joking ooc (at least, toward the beginning of a campaign)
Magical compulsion directly controlling; he always has final say here
Magical effects that affect your mental state that aren't directly controlling you; he has some veto power along the lines of "you cannot bring yourself to touch the dark idol, you'll have to find another way to steal it"
Backstory Cheese; you should be allowed to have the details you want, but there are limits. You cannot retcon yourself to have been the BBEG's father's, brother's, nephew's, cousin's, former roommate. Nor can anything in your backstory grant you anything in the current game unless you run it by the GM first, and it's going to be minor at best, and will probably come with a price. No you can't "have studied it in wizard school" if there have only been 3 people who knew it in the past 1000 years and you haven't met any of them.
Metagame information; the GM should be very direct as squashing this; as much as I don't want to back this GM, it's possible that he thought you were holding onto the stick because you were thinking outside the game. Really, if he thought that and you were stubborn about it, the solution would be to switch it up and make that stick be a complete red herring, even if it required retcon later on.


But in general I agree, you are the boss of what your character thinks, feels, and does. A GM should not say "no you don't do that"