Getting revenge as a LE character?

[Jarmen4u]

Hi all, I could really use some help.

I'm playing a LE Ranger in this 3.5 campaign, and so far its not looking so great for me RP-wise. I have the only male character; we have a fighter, a rogue, and (recently added) a cleric.

We all boarded a merchant ship as workers, however my character was supposed to be a higher-up guild member in said merchant guild. Due to this, my character got into an altercation with the ship's first mate (who the storyteller-DM revealed to be an active man-hater). From this point on, the first mate treated my character poorly every chance she got. Unfortunately, the other players (who are new to D&D except for the cleric) took this opportunity to taunt and berate him as well. Simultaneously, the first mate(as the DMNPC) and the other characters flirted and made sex jokes/references whenever they could. I'm pretty sure they've had at least three orgies so far. When the cleric showed up, she was trying to be a peacekeeper, but in vain.

It all kind of fell apart at one point, where the fighter (who's supposed to be LN) fell on her ass chasing a rat with a key in its mouth. I shot the rat and picked up the key, but the fighter demanded I return 'her key' to her. I refused, and she knocked me on my ass with an unarmed strike (our storyteller-DM's call, her attack roll was 18 but my AC was 17 so I think it was a bad call but I digress). While getting back up, she got a free AoO and hit me again, knocking me unconscious through nonlethal damage. Our cleric, who is a veteran to D&D, and our rulebook-DM told the player that her character just shifted from LN to TN because of her actions.

I asked the DMs about what I can do about this, as I am an evil aligned character and I should be able to take some kind of revenge. However, they told me that a PK would result in getting booted from the game, so no killing in their sleep. The storyteller-DM blames me for rolling Lawful Evil, saying that I'm asking to be treated this way by choosing this alignment. I've made it clear in our games that my character sheet is private, so none of the players know my alignment. They've been this way since session one.

So basically I'm at an impass: I can't manifest my character's evil alignment fully because PKing is not allowed, however I can't really think of any way to get back at them. I've discussed stealing valuables or something from the character(s), but the storyteller-DM said that there probably won't be anything of value to steal from them at any point in the near future. I'd love to hear any ideas that aren't "kill them anyway and quit the group" because I got that answer from all of my irl D&D friends.



tl;dr evil character gets ass kicked by party member, wants to take revenge but can't kill them, stealing is also not advised. What can I do in this situation?

(For the record, I'm still pretty new to D&D myself, this being my second campaign. So if there's an obvious answer I haven't thought of, I apologize.)

[Troacctid]

Your character needs to get it together. You're Lawful Evil. That means you're a professional. You're ruthless, you're merciless, but you're professional. Petulantly stabbing your co-workers in the back is, like, the exact opposite of professional. You work with a team; that's your job. You want to kill this guy, fine, do it when he's not on the same payroll as you.

[Jarmen4u]

Your character needs to get it together. You're Lawful Evil. That means you're a professional. You're ruthless, you're merciless, but you're professional. Petulantly stabbing your co-workers in the back is, like, the exact opposite of professional. You work with a team; that's your job. You want to kill this guy, fine, do it when he's not on the same payroll as you.

Well long-term, I was planning on somehow indirectly causing their character to die, but I was hoping for a more immediate/short-term solution in the meantime.

Thanks for the advice, though. I'm working on it ^^

[NecessaryWeevil]

Before I offer my suggestions:
Hopefully you can explain your predicament to whole group as a player: if the sex jokes or just the harassment is harming your enjoyment of the game, say so. Are you the only male character, or the only male player? Maybe ask the DM for what kind of LE behaviour they do consider appropriate? Others on this forum will be wiser than me, but generally you might need an out-of-character solution. At any rate, "I don't think our playstyles mesh, thanks for the game, goodbye" is a better way to quit than trying to kill their characters, especially since the D&D community can be kinda small. But it sounds like you realize that.

Also, DMPCs are a red flag, especially used this way.

Now that that's out of the way:
If you're really determined to get back at them, well, rangers are supposed to be wilderness experts. You could lead them into an ambush or abandon them in the middle of a trackless wilderness (carrying their food with you...?) But that borders on PK, and you'd need to make a new character - who might not be welcome if you've angered the other players in this way. That's why I suggest talking to them.

For the record, I'd have said the fighter's behaviour was more evil than chaotic. Regarding the punch, they exceeded your AC with their hitroll, so yeah, they hit you. But I don't think they can knock you down without a feat.

[Ratatoskir]

Honestly, this sounds more of an OOC problem than an in character problem. You probably should talk to the group about why they think its okay to antagonize your character just because you have to pull punches. And maybe re-roll a different character. It might just be that the group your in doesn't like evil characters being played and are taking it out on him. Not that that's fair.

Otherwise, play up how helpful you are. Be everybody's buddy. And then, however many sessions in the future, when the fighter is in a jam and is relying on you to save his skin, don't. Remind him of the key rat incident and let him die.

[Jarmen4u]

Before I offer my suggestions:
Hopefully you can explain your predicament to whole group as a player: if the sex jokes or just the harassment is harming your enjoyment of the game, say so. Are you the only male character, or the only male player? Maybe ask the DM for what kind of LE behaviour they do consider appropriate? Others on this forum will be wiser than me, but generally you might need an out-of-character solution. At any rate, "I don't think our playstyles mesh, thanks for the game, goodbye" is a better way to quit than trying to kill their characters, especially since the D&D community can be kinda small. But it sounds like you realize that.

Also, DMPCs are a red flag, especially used this way.

Now that that's out of the way:
If you're really determined to get back at them, well, rangers are supposed to be wilderness experts. You could lead them into an ambush or abandon them in the middle of a trackless wilderness (carrying their food with you...?) But that borders on PK, and you'd need to make a new character - who might not be welcome if you've angered the other players in this way. That's why I suggest talking to them.

For the record, I'd have said the fighter's behaviour was more evil than chaotic. Regarding the punch, they exceeded your AC with their hitroll, so yeah, they hit you. But I don't think they can knock you down without a feat.

Yeah, I've spent ages trying to find a group to play with, and the idea of roll20 and strangers puts me off since I'm still pretty new. I really don't want to ruin this chance.

As for the DMPC, technically we have 2 DMs (they're dating), but technically she's the "storyteller" and he's the actual DM. Unfortunately he generally only shows up for the encounters, and she does the rest.

I'd consider doing something like that, but as both of our DMs are very new to D&D, that type of scenario would not pan out. (Basically, food/water isn't a concern of the DM's, which he told us after I was the only person to spend some of my starting cash on things like bedroll, water skin, rations, etc) Not to mention, they probably wouldn't know how to make the tracking important enough to rely on me for; she'd probably just roleplay the tracking elements (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but defeats the purpose of being a tracker).

Like I said, I'd have a lot more ideas, but as far as I can tell in the immediate future, we are going to be spending quite a long time on this ship (there are already allusions at a future encounter with some kind of eldritch kaiju/kraken type monster).

Sorry for rambling so much, but I'm a bit desperate here :P

[KillianHawkeye]

So you're the only male character amongst females in a group that doesn't frown upon open sexuality, and the only evil things you can think of are theft and murder? Are you sure you're really Evil? I don't think you're trying hard enough.

DISCLAIMER: Following this line of thoughts to its conclusion may also get you kicked out of the group.

[Jarmen4u]

Honestly, this sounds more of an OOC problem than an in character problem. You probably should talk to the group about why they think its okay to antagonize your character just because you have to pull punches. And maybe re-roll a different character. It might just be that the group your in doesn't like evil characters being played and are taking it out on him. Not that that's fair.

Otherwise, play up how helpful you are. Be everybody's buddy. And then, however many sessions in the future, when the fighter is in a jam and is relying on you to save his skin, don't. Remind him of the key rat incident and let him die.



Like I said, only the DMs know that I am Evil alignment. The other players are just being this way because it's funny for them OOC to pick on the one guy. In fact, I talked to the fighter player about this, and she said "well it's not my fault she has such a short temper ehehe"

That's not such a bad idea. Long term, sabotage will happen most likely. I was just looking for short-term in the meantime.

[Jarmen4u]

So you're the only male character amongst females in a group that doesn't frown upon open sexuality, and the only evil things you can think of are theft and murder? Are you sure you're really Evil? I don't think you're trying hard enough.

DISCLAIMER: Following this line of thoughts to its conclusion may also get you kicked out of the group.

Not really that theft and murder are ALL I can think of, but moreso that our current environment is so empty that there isn't really much to do in the way of elaborate scheming.

Also - only male character, not only male player.
- not so much open sexuality, but constantly annoying mini-exchanges during important encounters regarding the chest of toys that the DMPC has in her chamber that she wants to share with the fighter, and how the rogue wants to join them this time.

EDIT: it's not that it's really even serious roleplaying; if their characters were seriously that promiscuous, fine. But it's essentially semi-OOC derailment and every time they do it we have to stop because they're laughing and making side jokes and etc

[KillianHawkeye]

I talked to the fighter player about this, and she said "well it's not my fault she has such a short temper ehehe"

And the appropriate response to this kind of BS is "You're playing the character. You decide what actions he or she takes. So yes, it is your fault that your character is acting like a jerk."

Sorry, that's a pet peeve of mine.

EDIT-

- not so much open sexuality, but constantly annoying mini-exchanges during important encounters regarding the chest of toys that the DMPC has in her chamber that she wants to share with the fighter, and how the rogue wants to join them this time.

That sounds like open sexuality to me..... :smallconfused:



Anyway, what's the point of playing an Evil character if you don't... y'know, BE EVIL!?

[Troacctid]

Well long-term, I was planning on somehow indirectly causing their character to die, but I was hoping for a more immediate/short-term solution in the meantime.

Thanks for the advice, though. I'm working on it ^^

Just remember that evil is about looking out for number one, not about gratuitous acts of jerk-ness; most of the time, the latter is not conducive to the former.

And if you really have to antagonize someone, make sure it's not someone who can beat you unconscious with their bare hands.

[Jarmen4u]

Anyway, what's the point of playing an Evil character if you don't... y'know, BE EVIL!?

Well that's why I'm here! Looking for ideas on how I can manifest it :P


And if you really have to antagonize someone, make sure it's not someone who can beat you unconscious with their bare hands.

Yeah, I wasn't really trying to provoke anger. The fighter literally demanded the key once, then straight up punched me. No bartering, no second try, nothing. Considering her lawful-neutral alignment, I expected a more rational response.

[KillianHawkeye]

Just remember that evil is about looking out for number one, not about gratuitous acts of jerk-ness;

The quote in my signature would like to disagree with you. :smallamused:



Well that's why I'm here! Looking for ideas on how I can manifest it :P

Okay, how about you throw the offending person overboard? Or get rid of the DMPC and take over the ship? Is the entire ship crewed by misandrist women, or just the first mate? And where is the captain during all of this?

[KnightOfV]

I have seen this happen many times, where the Evil character kills a party member for revenge, and it is always the same thing after: the rest of the party gets mad and kills the evil party member in response. Sometimes feelings get hurt out of character, and generally you end up with arguing over alignments, and rerolling characters, and not having fun. That is why most DMs don't like Player killers, because as soon as a PC knifes another PC, the game is over.

EDIT: better idea, you already said you don't want to be a player killer.

Can you steal the key back from the fighter and throw it in the ocean? Or maybe use your ranger skills to find venomous spiders and place them so they 'happen' to get on the fighter while she sleeps? That kind of revenge will be non lethal, but I'd still worry about it coming back around on you.

[AvatarVecna]

Don't get mad, get even. Become the helpful guy; pretend you're turning over a new leaf; help the other part members shine. Alternatively...

Become a master manipulator OOC. Send notes the DM, and don't give anyone even a glance at your character sheet. When you cast spells, but don't tell the other players what spells you're casting; make them roll to see if they can figure it out (guess the fighter and rogue won't know).

While in character, start figuring out the weak points of each character's backstory; I suggest taking Leadership, and starting your information/assassin network. I suggest watching Season 3, Episode 3 of Sherlock via Netflix; it's where I got the idea, and it should provide a good idea of the flavor of evil you're going for. Your followers should all be Experts with Gather Information, Knowledge (Local), Knowledge Devotion, and knowledge of an obscure language your main will know.

Once you've got some 2nd or 3rd lvl followers, it's time for phase two: have all of your followers use Aid Another on a series of Gather Information checks to determine the "weak point" of every other character in the party; once you know who they couldn't bear to have hurt, send out your followers to be in position to kill them; order them to torture and eventually kill their target if they don't receive a sending spell from you telling them not to--in the obscure language, and in code.

Now we begin phase 3: confronting the other players. Go to each one in private IC and tell them that their precious friend/family member/lover/whatever has a metaphorical ax hanging over their head, ready to fall. Tell them that, unless your minions receive a sending from you in the obscure language, they'll kill their target. And you'll refuse to send the letter unless they do as you say. Make sure to become immune to mind-affecting stuff somehow.

[Jarmen4u]

I was thinking about tossing the key, but at present I'm not sure what it goes to, and as far as I know it could be a plot hook of some kind. I'll probably take your initial advice and play nice to get under their radar. I'm just worried what's going to happen if the cleric uses detect evil on me.

[Jarmen4u]

Don't get mad, get even.

I love this whole thing, and I'll try to do something similar. However, knowing how easy to anger the DM is about everything, he might not like me taking Leadership. And as for the finding out about background characters and threatening them with death... I could see about that, as long as the storyteller is okay with it I should be fine since it's not actual PKing.

Thanks for all the advice though, guys! Keep it coming! :P

[Troacctid]

The quote in my signature would like to disagree with you. :smallamused:

Oh, Neutral is also about looking out for number one. The difference is that Evil is willing to do evil things to get what they want, while Neutral, generally speaking, is not. But Evil doesn't just go around doing evil things for the lulz, they do it because they stand to gain from it. Random acts of jerk-ness are Chaotic Evil territory.

[Agrippa]

I have a suggestion, I'm just not sure how welcome it would be in your group. See, I view Lawful Evil differently than other people do. Many people see Lawful Evil as being the principled and more honorable Evil alignment. Frankly, I respectfully disagree. To me, Lawful Evil is a mixture two separate things, cruelty and brutality on one hand and a belief in utter and uncompromising fealty and duty to the group over the individual. So when you you want an idea of what a Lawful Evil character would do, just think WWTLD. What would Tywin Lannister do? Just make sure your vengeance serves a greater familial or societal purpose than just your own thirst for revenge.

And who are you, the proud lord said,
that I must bow so low?
Only a cat of a different coat,
that's all the truth I know.
In a coat of gold or a coat of red,
a lion still has claws,
And mine are long and sharp, my lord,
as long and sharp as yours. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECewrAld3zw)
And so he spoke, and so he spoke,
that lord of Castamere,
But now the rains weep o'er his hall,
with no one there to hear.
Yes now the rains weep o'er his hall,
and not a soul to hear. (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_Rains_of_Castamere)

[AvatarVecna]

I love this whole thing, and I'll try to do something similar. However, knowing how easy to anger the DM is about everything, he might not like me taking Leadership. And as for the finding out about background characters and threatening them with death... I could see about that, as long as the storyteller is okay with it I should be fine since it's not actual PKing.

Thanks for all the advice though, guys! Keep it coming! :P

No Leadership? That's okay, that's what hirelings are for!

[Azoth]

If you took the Trap Expert ACF or don't mind spending CC ranks in Disable Device (damn trained only skill), you can have alot of fun getting back at annoying party members. This involves using its sabotage device feature.

Walking by their quarters, use you knife for a DC15 check to jam the lock without a trace it was tampered with. Go to sleep and enjoy the havock it brings in the morning when they have to sunder the door to get out.

Sabotage the seem in their clothes to fail and leave them revealed after about an hour of walking.

There are a million and one uses for disable device and acts of dickery. It is my go to skill for small petty revenge when i am playing an evil character.

Also, remember that it is only a measly +5 to the DC of any check to tamper with a device and leave no trace.

Another fun skill overlooked is Craft Alchemy. So many alchemical substances are non-lethal even at low levels but are incredibly irritating or inconvienent to deal with.

Thunderstones can make low level peeps deaf for an hour (10gp a pop self crafted)

Ice Lichen Paste someone's bath to freeze their happy butt or a portion of it to the tub.

Alchemist Fire in a box rigged to break when they open it. (1 fire damage splash ain't much but it is annoying)

Ippecac...

Defoliator the dinner table when they are having a salad...

The list goes on and on. Just get creative with applications and thought processes.

[Jarmen4u]

If you took the Trap Expert ACF or don't mind spending CC ranks in Disable Device (damn trained only skill), you can have alot of fun getting back at annoying party members. This involves using its sabotage device feature.

Walking by their quarters, use you knife for a DC15 check to jam the lock without a trace it was tampered with. Go to sleep and enjoy the havock it brings in the morning when they have to sunder the door to get out.

Sabotage the seem in their clothes to fail and leave them revealed after about an hour of walking.

There are a million and one uses for disable device and acts of dickery. It is my go to skill for small petty revenge when i am playing an evil character.

Also, remember that it is only a measly +5 to the DC of any check to tamper with a device and leave no trace.

Another fun skill overlooked is Craft Alchemy. So many alchemical substances are non-lethal even at low levels but are incredibly irritating or inconvienent to deal with.

Thunderstones can make low level peeps deaf for an hour (10gp a pop self crafted)

Ice Lichen Paste someone's bath to freeze their happy butt or a portion of it to the tub.

Alchemist Fire in a box rigged to break when they open it. (1 fire damage splash ain't much but it is annoying)

Ippecac...

Defoliator the dinner table when they are having a salad...

The list goes on and on. Just get creative with applications and thought processes.

I didn't think to use Disable Device... I might give that a try!

As for ACFs, our DM is pretty new to DMing and D&D in general so he's restricted our game to PHB only. Otherwise I probably would have had a bit more wiggle room in regards to dealing with this problem.

[Extra Anchovies]

I have the only male character; we have a fighter, a rogue, and (recently added) a cleric...

...the first mate (as the DMNPC) and the other characters flirted and made sex jokes/references whenever they could. I'm pretty sure they've had at least three orgies so far.

What gender are the players and/or DM?

[Jarmen4u]

What gender are the players and/or DM?

DM is male, Storyteller-DM is female (they're dating), I'm a guy, female fighter is a girl, female rogue is a girl, female cleric is a guy(also the only other person with significant D&D experience).

[Blackhawk748]

Your revenge is simple, make them extremely paranoid. Go into their rooms, move stuff around, leave small bits of paper with random words on it there over time, put something random in there, like a small plant. In short make their danger sense ping so often they get a migraine and curl up in the corner. You are Lawful Evil sir, be the puppet master you know you can be!

[Sith_Happens]

What would Tywin Lannister do?

Seconding this.

[thematgreen]

There is nothing you can do, since the DM seems to be working against you.

With a good DM, I would use my stealth to get in and steal something from the captain and plant it on the offending party, then "discover" the issue days later.

Of course when asked why I was in her room I would wink at her and grin like we were sharing a secret.

Keep this going until the crew gets sick of the person and keelhauls them or something.

Of course I love high bluff/diplomacy/stealth characters.

[Jarmen4u]

There is nothing you can do, since the DM seems to be working against you.

Unfortunately this is very much the case. I spoke with him earlier, suggesting an information network-type thing using the Leadership feat, and he started going on about how '****ing stupid' and '****ing broken' Leadership is, because of something he heard from someone once. Honestly, every time I suggest something out of the ordinary, dude flips out and takes it personally.

Hence why I was looking for creative ideas. Thanks for all the help so far, though.

[...]

Well, if the most important thing is getting your message across and not being caught, you could just have someone wake up with a anesthetic-soaked knife in their leg.

[Troacctid]

Unfortunately this is very much the case. I spoke with him earlier, suggesting an information network-type thing using the Leadership feat, and he started going on about how '****ing stupid' and '****ing broken' Leadership is, because of something he heard from someone once. Honestly, every time I suggest something out of the ordinary, dude flips out and takes it personally.

Hence why I was looking for creative ideas. Thanks for all the help so far, though.

In fairness, the Leadership feat is stupid and broken.

[Jarmen4u]

In fairness, the Leadership feat is stupid and broken.

I know, but for the reasons he was stating, I wasn't going to use it. He was mentioning having encounters for 4 players with like 8 players including cohorts, when I'd just want an information network of the like.

[Jarmen4u]

So, verdict is, I think I'm going to fake an alignment change. This way the cleric can stop metagaming with trying to Detect Evil me, and maybe the others will stop bullying my character en masse.

I will, then, be looking for ways to get back at them down the road, but for now playing nice seems to be the best option. Would (mostly) harmless mischief be out of alignment? Like an earlier post suggested, mess with things and leave them paranoid, notes, move items around, etc.

[Illven]

Would your DM allow you to bring a fake sheet to avoid the occasional glance?

[Jarmen4u]

Would your DM allow you to bring a fake sheet to avoid the occasional glance?

Fortunately we use roll20 for our gaming, and Myth-Weavers for our sheets, so there is no risk of players finding out unless the DM says something. Which he won't(read:better not).

[LTwerewolf]

Honestly it just sounds like you're not having fun with the group. Any group that is ok with picking on one player isn't one you want to be a part of anyhow. There are plenty of others.

[Azoth]

Honestly it just sounds like you're not having fun with the group. Any group that is ok with picking on one player isn't one you want to be a part of anyhow. There are plenty of others.

If it only goes on for a session or two it is usually fine and just a bit of hazing the new guy. It is when people become openly antagonistic (IC and OOC) that you need to worry.

If his character gets away with a little IC payback and does it well, they might drop it.

Now if he goes for some harmless IC payback and things escalate, that is the time to pack up the dice and bid them goodbye.

[Jarmen4u]

Honestly it just sounds like you're not having fun with the group. Any group that is ok with picking on one player isn't one you want to be a part of anyhow. There are plenty of others.

Honestly, I'm not really having all that much fun. We've had one encounter in three sessions, which consisted of two rat swarms sans Ex abilities. We received 160 xp each. And every time I try to ask the DM about something (for example, leadership), he blows up and yells at me. When I ask him why he feels the way he does, he just tells me whatever it is is stupid or broken or not core, or sometimes doesn't even give a reason and yells more. Then I get temp booted from the group chat until the Storyteller-DM (read: DM's girlfriend) tells me what I did wrong and that he's just having a bad day, and that she'll give me one more chance.

Haha, sorry. At this point, this has almost turned into me just venting about how frustrating this session is. I'm still sticking with it because I can't find another. Trust me, I've been looking.

[AvatarVecna]

Haha, sorry. At this point, this has almost turned into me just venting about how frustrating this session is. I'm still sticking with it because I can't find another. Trust me, I've been looking.

Would you be interested in play-by-post games here on giantitp? There's plenty of stuff for all kinds of tastes.

[Jarmen4u]

Would you be interested in play-by-post games here on giantitp? There's plenty of stuff for all kinds of tastes.

I... might. I used to do written back-and-forth roleplay(no game, just stories), but it got kind of dull if there was an extended period of time between responses/actions. However, I have participated in a couple d&d type threads on 4chan, which were pretty entertaining.

All I really want though, is a consistent group with at least a semi-competent DM. I would play a monk if it meant I could have a game I could actually enjoy fully.

EDIT: Since I'm on a roll with my complaining, it's worth mentioning that I was the only person in the initial group that knew how to roll characters(the cleric joined later), so I had to make everyone's character for them. I added mild optimization for what was available, and was sure to ask what direction they wanted to go (our fighter opted to go strength/greataxe instead of a possible dex/TWF build). For the record, I don't mind helping when I can, but I find myself constantly doing the DM's job for him, whether it be looking up rules he's not familiar with, or explaining how certain mechanics work, etc. You'd expect him to cut me some slack/give me the benefit of the doubt.

[LTwerewolf]

My group originally got started because of meetup.com

Try it out and you may get some luck. Some cities have more than others. As I've seen said around here many times: no gaming is better than bad gaming, just take the time to find a new group and you'll be much happier. If not you'll come to dislike it even with a good group.

[AvatarVecna]

If you're interested in such a game, I'm currently running a 3.P Epic Gestalt game, and I've had a player drop recently. There's already some Evil characters on the team, and medium optimization is welcome (wish abuse and Dark Chaos Shuffles are despised, but there's a character with AC in the triple digits currently, and another with a list of immunities longer than my arm).

If you're interested, I'll shoot you links the the IC thread and the original thread where all the allowed homebrew is recorded.

[jiriku]

Two thoughts: first of all, your current group is poo. People shouldn't treat each other that way, especially considering how much effort you've gone to helping the others play and have a good time. You are wise to consider gaming here instead. :smallsmile:

Second, within your game, a Lawful Evil character takes advantage of hierarchies. You were attacked without provocation, beaten unconscious, and then robbed by another person aboard ship. This is assault, battery, and robbery. Discipline aboard ships, even civilian ships, is extremely tight because the survival of everyone depends on it. When this happened, had you immediately gone to the captain and reported that you were attacked and robbed, and (assuming you have Bluff and related social skills), lied or exaggerated a little to make the fighter's crime seem worse than it was, you could potentially have created a situation where the captain would have sent some crew to arrest the fighter, clap her in irons, lock her in the brig, and returned the key to you. This might also have taught her an important life lesson that it's not appropriate to beat and rob your allies, especially when the ally is you.

Remember to respect the law... as a weapon that can be used against those who thwart you.

[Rater202]

I sugest buying a spare dagger, never touching it with bare hands, and then sneaking into the most annoying PC's room and burying the dagger, that looks unlike your own weapon, into the bedside table.

[Valwyn]

You're an Evil Ranger in a boat with rats. Catch a few of them and place them in the Fighter's closet/chest/whatever. Or even better, let them free in her room and put some food in her bed (just make sure you can get out of there fast). Speaking of rats, I don't know in DnD, but in real life, their urine can get you really sick. Sprinkle some of it in her food, preferably something she won't eat in a while, like trail rations, so it has time to dry. If she doesn't make her save, she'll probably get filth fever or something (the cleric should be able to handle it, so no real damage done). And speaking of sabotage, you can still use Craft (Poison) (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0) without being a spellcaster (which level 4 Rangers are, so you might manage to make some alchemical items after all.).

Hope this gives you some ideas. :smallamused:

[Sith_Happens]

You're an Evil Ranger in a boat with rats. Catch a few of them and place them in the Fighter's closet/chest/whatever. Or even better, let them free in her room and put some food in her bed (just make sure you can get out of there fast).

Heck, you have Wild Empathy, you can go full Pied Piper if you so choose.

[Vortenger]

Second, within your game, a Lawful Evil character takes advantage of hierarchies. You were attacked without provocation, beaten unconscious, and then robbed by another person aboard ship. This is assault, battery, and robbery. Discipline aboard ships, even civilian ships, is extremely tight because the survival of everyone depends on it. When this happened, had you immediately gone to the captain and reported that you were attacked and robbed, and (assuming you have Bluff and related social skills), lied or exaggerated a little to make the fighter's crime seem worse than it was, you could potentially have created a situation where the captain would have sent some crew to arrest the fighter, clap her in irons, lock her in the brig, and returned the key to you. This might also have taught her an important life lesson that it's not appropriate to beat and rob your allies, especially when the ally is you.

Remember to respect the law... as a weapon that can be used against those who thwart you.

This. This. One hundred times this. Ship captains have been famous throughout history for not allowing B.S. on their boats. If you pursue this route and nothing beneficial happens, then your DM is really out to get you and you've done all you can. Just explain it OOC as using your alignment to solve in in character dilemma. If your DM gives a carpe about your enjoyment of the game, they should meet you at least part way.

edit: You said the ship's first mate is a man-hater. You did not say anything like that about the captain. One would presume that there must be a difference in their attitudes or the DM would not have gone out of their way to point out the mate in such a fashion. If they switch modes and the captain is suddenly hating on you arbitrarily, then your DM is being purely antagonistic. At which point there is but one solution: GTFO.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ok, so what I've gathered:

1. This is a roll20 game w/ people you didn't know before. Not an in person game with friends. This is important b/c it can be hard to find local people to play with, and roll20 games are common as hell (seriously, I can find some sort of available 3E game within 2 days of periodically checking Looking For Group at any given time). So you should really have no attachment to these people, who have done their best to make your play experience miserable.

2. The DM is outright against you, what with the DMPC and all. So any sort of diplomatic solution or "sneaky and clever" revenge isn't going to work, she'll just shut it down.

Solution: Leave the group. Screw what the DM said, *do* off them in their sleep or the like. Go out in a blaze of glory, then find a better game. They'll just retcon the TPK to not have happened anyway most likely, but it will feel good. And that's the whole point of revenge, ultimately. :smallwink:

Doesn't have to be something as direct as a TPK, but with the DM determined to stop your plans, you probably won't have any better option than the finality of "I slit her throat in her sleep." Turning on them mid-combat when you're healthy and they're in danger works, too. If you melee, stop doing melee, stick to archery. Let them get injured and vulnerable.
I almost never advocate TPK or PKing, and have only ever killed a fellow PC once in all my years...after he attacked me unprovoked first. But sometimes it really is the best option.

[Jarmen4u]

Second, within your game, a Lawful Evil character takes advantage of hierarchies. You were attacked without provocation, beaten unconscious, and then robbed by another person aboard ship. This is assault, battery, and robbery. Discipline aboard ships, even civilian ships, is extremely tight because the survival of everyone depends on it. When this happened, had you immediately gone to the captain and reported that you were attacked and robbed, and (assuming you have Bluff and related social skills), lied or exaggerated a little to make the fighter's crime seem worse than it was, you could potentially have created a situation where the captain would have sent some crew to arrest the fighter, clap her in irons, lock her in the brig, and returned the key to you. This might also have taught her an important life lesson that it's not appropriate to beat and rob your allies, especially when the ally is you.

Remember to respect the law... as a weapon that can be used against those who thwart you.

I did think of implementing this, but in our last session, everything just went to **** as our captain turned into a pile of slime, we were being haunted by a mermaid's disembodied head, and we were sunk by essentially a Kraken and washed up on an island. I'll go into more detail in another post as the entire session gave me enough to rant about.
(Keep in mind, we're still level 1. It's been 4 sessions, and the only XP we have is from the rat swarm, which netted us 160xp each. No, I'm not joking.)


Ok, so what I've gathered:

1. This is a roll20 game w/ people you didn't know before. Not an in person game with friends. This is important b/c it can be hard to find local people to play with, and roll20 games are common as hell (seriously, I can find some sort of available 3E game within 2 days of periodically checking Looking For Group at any given time). So you should really have no attachment to these people, who have done their best to make your play experience miserable.

2. The DM is outright against you, what with the DMPC and all. So any sort of diplomatic solution or "sneaky and clever" revenge isn't going to work, she'll just shut it down.

Solution: Leave the group. Screw what the DM said, *do* off them in their sleep or the like. Go out in a blaze of glory, then find a better game. They'll just retcon the TPK to not have happened anyway most likely, but it will feel good. And that's the whole point of revenge, ultimately. :smallwink:

Doesn't have to be something as direct as a TPK, but with the DM determined to stop your plans, you probably won't have any better option than the finality of "I slit her throat in her sleep." Turning on them mid-combat when you're healthy and they're in danger works, too. If you melee, stop doing melee, stick to archery. Let them get injured and vulnerable.
I almost never advocate TPK or PKing, and have only ever killed a fellow PC once in all my years...after he attacked me unprovoked first. But sometimes it really is the best option.

1. I have been friends(?) with the DM and Storyteller-DM in the past. I actually slept with the storyteller earlier this year (which is probably why the DM doesn't like me, as it so happens they were secretly dating at the time). Although yes, everyone else in the group are friends of them and unknown to me.

2. The DM may be against me, but the Storyteller-DM doesn't seem to think everything through realistically. For example, an earlier poster suggested I report this to the captain and have him do something about it, but based on the handling of the characters so far, she would have the captain probably shrug it off, say I asked for it, or just respond in general aloofness, as that's how most NPCs seem to act.

I want to leave the group, and I will, but I want to secure a place in a new group first. Preferably 3.5, but there may be a 5th ed. group forming at my work in the not-so-distant future(I work at a bookstore, D&D nerds make up about 60% of the staff).

[Sith_Happens]

(Keep in mind, we're still level 1. It's been 4 sessions, and the only XP we have is from the rat swarm, which netted us 160xp each. No, I'm not joking.)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7RVHGhNpJu0/UwcgRjnqBeI/AAAAAAAALM8/7JgPUXkf7R8/s1600/Gandal.gif

[HMS Invincible]

Honestly, this sounds more of an OOC problem than an in character problem. You probably should talk to the group about why they think its okay to antagonize your character just because you have to pull punches. And maybe re-roll a different character. It might just be that the group your in doesn't like evil characters being played and are taking it out on him. Not that that's fair.


This is probably the best advice since I know how hard it is to find new groups to play D&D. Especially in person groups. All the other advice given is awful for group dynamics. You either get a "great" prank off, and the rest of the players hate you, or you get frustrated because someone caught on to your "prank". Talk to your group, one person at a time. Then get them together to chat about it. You might have to give up a evil character, or you might work something out.

Note: Telling someone with few social options to ditch their social circle is a terrible idea. The answer to most of problems is talking it out.

[Dissonance]

Have you figured out what the key is to yet? If not, make it the key to your revenge.

Use your superior info gathering abilities (at least in comparison to the fighter) to figure out what it is to. Heck make it the subject of a party wide search for a session. (bonus if you derail the session as you get the party hyped since it seems the DM is against you and derailing is about the best "take that" you can manage at that point.)

Once you figure it out, your plan can go two different direction: You can attack her alignment or her reputation.

1. If the key is to something that is potentially helpful with No drawbacks. Grab the key and claim it for yourself. Point out the fighter literally mugged you for it and so technically it is stolen property and rightfully belongs to you. If she mugs you again she risks alignment shift and she will know that from what happened to her last time. If she does it anyway and her alignment does shift, smile magnificently at her. If she lets you keep it, Make sure you make DAMN good use of whatever loot you get, and thank the fighter constantly for it. It will drive her nuts and if she explodes, alignment shift. Make sure you don't bring it up often, if at all. Make it a problem in her own head, not one stemming from you.

2. If the key is to something that could be dangerous accessing. Get her to open it of her own accord. (this will only work if she doesn't know the potential ****storm that will ensue.) After that, smear her rep with the rest of the party. Lament your position and place the blame at her feet. She won't be able to shake it, and the party will be less trusting of her with important items. If she is aware of the danger, Convince her to turn her nose up at the proposition. Make her toss the key, (in a recoverable location) then grab it (secretly) and save it for a rainy day. At worst, it will give you brownie points with the good members of the party AND a trump card if whatever the key is to comes up. At best, you'll reverse psychology her into opening the can of worms with the key. At which you follow the first part and legitimately denounce her rep. (hey, you were playing the voice of reason and she screwed up. You are definitely in the right at this point so she can't argue.)

[icefractal]

The group doesn't sound that good, so leaving may in fact be the best option. But failing that ...

I'm going to advise making a new character. This character has apparently become the butt-monkey, and you're not going to be able to rectify that situation with the DMs against you. Anything minor will probably backfire, anything major will be disallowed. Really, there's not a good way forward there.

So - new character. New chance to make an impression, and maybe the fact that you switched characters because of the antagonism will clue some people in to cut it out.

Now if you have some vengefulness still brewing, you could make the new character annoying as hell in a non-PvP way. Think Kender. Even if you don't, I would still go with a character that's kind of strange and doesn't take themself very seriously. If they decide it would be hilarious to mess with you again, they'll find it's not so fun to mess with someone who doesn't give a crap.

In fact, if you had more sources at your disposal, I'd suggest playing something really weird, like a psychic sandwich. But even in core, you can take a somewhat odd choice (Goblin, for example; not bad for some classes), combine it with a bizarre personality, and make them the straight-man to your antics.

[Zanos]

I have a suggestion, I'm just not sure how welcome it would be in your group. See, I view Lawful Evil differently than other people do. Many people see Lawful Evil as being the principled and more honorable Evil alignment. Frankly, I respectfully disagree. To me, Lawful Evil is a mixture two separate things, cruelty and brutality on one hand and a belief in utter and uncompromising fealty and duty to the group over the individual. So when you you want an idea of what a Lawful Evil character would do, just think WWTLD. What would Tywin Lannister do? Just make sure your vengeance serves a greater familial or societal purpose than just your own thirst for revenge.
I'd peg Tywin closer to Neutral Evil than Lawful. He really won't let anything get in his way and one of the biggest plays he makes in the books is him directly violating longstanding traditions of hospitality. He was also complicit in multiple counts of treason and regicide. Ruling a Kingdom doesn't make you Lawful.

Not that he isn't a BAMF, but he isn't Lawful.

[LTwerewolf]

I'd peg Tywin closer to Neutral Evil than Lawful. He really won't let anything get in his way and one of the biggest plays he makes in the books is him directly violating longstanding traditions of hospitality. He was also complicit in multiple counts of treason and regicide. Ruling a Kingdom doesn't make you Lawful.

Not that he isn't a BAMF, but he isn't Lawful.

He made a deal with someone else to directly violate longstanding traditions of hospitality. Asmodeus would do the same. Asmodeus would also kill those above him (as all the devils would) in order to advance his own position. Tywin is lawful. Lawful evil doesn't mean "well someone else is leader, so I guess I'll just stand by and be complacent."

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, the whole sleeping w/ the co-DM who's now dating the other DM probably doesn't help. Not in any way your fault if you didn't know at the time, but life just sucks like that sometimes.

The continued double standard stuff of the captain likely saying you asked for it (at least, you think she'd have him reply that way), or how the female fighter beating you up seems to be written off as a tsudendere just having an outburst and acceptable when gender-flipping both would look horrible bothers me greatly but I'm not going to dwell on it...

Try to convince your coworkers to play 3E, but even 5E with them would probably be vastly better than 3E with...this group.


So - new character. New chance to make an impression, and maybe the fact that you switched characters because of the antagonism will clue some people in to cut it out.

Because giving in to bullying and letting the bullies know they can dictate your choices is totally the best way to discourage them from continuing to domineer over you.

There's nothing wrong with his character, he shouldn't have to change just to appease them, and I doubt it would help anyway.

[Jarmen4u]

Okay wow, since I got quite a few replies, I feel like I should quickly outline how the most recent session went, and how I took everyone's advice so far.


I told the DMs OOC that I am going to pretend to switch alignments to get out of everyone's crosshairs. They accept.
Shortly after the game starts, the Cleric detects evil in the middle of a conversation over lunch in the kitchen.
Detects evil on me and one other source. Follows source to a locked door with a tiny tiny keyhole.
Fetch tiny key that fighter took from me and gave to first mate, unlocks door to find a banshee.
Banshee shrieks and flys off. We go back topside to talk to the first mate/captain.
Gasp. First mate is still there by the wheel, but the captain is nowhere to be seen!
There is a small bit of generic mundane (we did all the checks on it) slime where he was standing.
Aloof first mate didn't apparently notice the captain disappearing right behind her back, but doesn't really seem to care because aloof roleplaying is too good.
I make a lucky spot check for lulz on the tiny lifeboat attached to the back of the pregenerated ship, assuming it wasn't taken into account. Entire thing is coated with slime.
Disembodied head from previous session that I launched into the sea with ship's catapult has returned and is now hanging from the crow's nest.
Cleric rolls a godly (pun intended) knowledge check and DM explains a local legend regarding the head. tl;dr Beheaded mermaid seeking generic revenge after love triangle goes south.
At this point I'm not really sure what any of these various things have to do with each other, as they don't seem to have any ties to each other. (Head/slime/banshee seemingly unrelated, not sure which one is causing the rats/quickly rotting food supply)
We're stuck OOC trying to figure out what to even do as we have no leads whatsoever, things just keep going to ****.
Right about this point, the DM blurts out my real alignment for no real reason. The storyteller verbally kicks him but he doesn't care.
Suddenly, Kraken attacks us. No, really.
This turns into a 20-30 minute encounter where we are attacking its tentacles as it tries to rip the three masts off of our ship.
But wait there's more: Initiative was never rolled, it wasn't structured at all, it was just kind of a "okay make attack rolls until it lets go"
The first one ripped off the mast pretty quick, but the other ones were just continuously described as "slowly ripping the mast off, tilting the boat slightly in the process" for about 10 minutes each
I roll a nat 1 fighting the only one nobody else can hit because it's apparently learned to not grab the mast so low to be in melee range.
The DM-DM breaks my bowstring to the protests of both the Storyteller-DM and the Cleric, both understanding that breaking a first level Ranger's bow makes him just about useless.
DM doesn't care, says I should have bought more bowstrings. Read: we could only buy limited things from the PHB equipment list, last time I checked bowstrings wasn't on the list. At the very least it wasn't a priority.
So since I had nothing to do at that point, I told him I was going to go to my cabin and take 20 fixing the bowstring by hand. He said it'd take an hour but I didn't care.
Finally the Kraken rips through the middle of our ship and sends the bow up in the air Titanic-style. Storyteller asks how I react to everything shifting violently, I continue fixing my bowstring.
ship goes down, we wash up on the shore of the island we were supposedly heading to on our monthlong journey (a trip we were only about 5 days into).
Of course none of our cargo made it, nor did the first mate. We only had the gear on our sheets.
We run into the Storyteller's actual DMPC, a skeleton sorcerer with a birdcage on his head. (OOC I know it's the important one because she's inserted him into every other session.)
The town is seemingly abandoned, everything is run down. Turns out, some people live there but they hide from the skeleton and all other visitors.
I follow one of the fleeing citizens, trying to get into their home. I knock, no answrer. I try breaking down the rotted wooden door, 'the door is more solid than it looks.' Either they're magical doors or I'm getting railroaded.
Skeleton leads us back to his house. End session.


I tried sucking up to the other players with my character, playing the nice guy etc, but instead of all belittling my character, we found a heap of new problems instead.

I understand this thread has almost turned into a 'whine about my D&D group' one, but I would still value any and all advice anyone has to offer, either for handling the DM, my evil character, or this session in general.

[illyahr]

Okay wow, since I got quite a few replies, I feel like I should quickly outline how the most recent session went, and how I took everyone's advice so far.


I told the DMs OOC that I am going to pretend to switch alignments to get out of everyone's crosshairs. They accept.
Shortly after the game starts, the Cleric detects evil in the middle of a conversation over lunch in the kitchen.
Detects evil on me and one other source. Follows source to a locked door with a tiny tiny keyhole.
Fetch tiny key that fighter took from me and gave to first mate, unlocks door to find a banshee.
Banshee shrieks and flys off. We go back topside to talk to the first mate/captain.
Gasp. First mate is still there by the wheel, but the captain is nowhere to be seen!
There is a small bit of generic mundane (we did all the checks on it) slime where he was standing.
Aloof first mate didn't apparently notice the captain disappearing right behind her back, but doesn't really seem to care because aloof roleplaying is too good.
I make a lucky spot check for lulz on the tiny lifeboat attached to the back of the pregenerated ship, assuming it wasn't taken into account. Entire thing is coated with slime.
Disembodied head from previous session that I launched into the sea with ship's catapult has returned and is now hanging from the crow's nest.
Cleric rolls a godly (pun intended) knowledge check and DM explains a local legend regarding the head. tl;dr Beheaded mermaid seeking generic revenge after love triangle goes south.
At this point I'm not really sure what any of these various things have to do with each other, as they don't seem to have any ties to each other. (Head/slime/banshee seemingly unrelated, not sure which one is causing the rats/quickly rotting food supply)
We're stuck OOC trying to figure out what to even do as we have no leads whatsoever, things just keep going to ****.
Right about this point, the DM blurts out my real alignment for no real reason. The storyteller verbally kicks him but he doesn't care.
Suddenly, Kraken attacks us. No, really.
This turns into a 20-30 minute encounter where we are attacking its tentacles as it tries to rip the three masts off of our ship.
But wait there's more: Initiative was never rolled, it wasn't structured at all, it was just kind of a "okay make attack rolls until it lets go"
The first one ripped off the mast pretty quick, but the other ones were just continuously described as "slowly ripping the mast off, tilting the boat slightly in the process" for about 10 minutes each
I roll a nat 1 fighting the only one nobody else can hit because it's apparently learned to not grab the mast so low to be in melee range.
The DM-DM breaks my bowstring to the protests of both the Storyteller-DM and the Cleric, both understanding that breaking a first level Ranger's bow makes him just about useless.
DM doesn't care, says I should have bought more bowstrings. Read: we could only buy limited things from the PHB equipment list, last time I checked bowstrings wasn't on the list. At the very least it wasn't a priority.
So since I had nothing to do at that point, I told him I was going to go to my cabin and take 20 fixing the bowstring by hand. He said it'd take an hour but I didn't care.
Finally the Kraken rips through the middle of our ship and sends the bow up in the air Titanic-style. Storyteller asks how I react to everything shifting violently, I continue fixing my bowstring.
ship goes down, we wash up on the shore of the island we were supposedly heading to on our monthlong journey (a trip we were only about 5 days into).
Of course none of our cargo made it, nor did the first mate. We only had the gear on our sheets.
We run into the Storyteller's actual DMPC, a skeleton sorcerer with a birdcage on his head. (OOC I know it's the important one because she's inserted him into every other session.)
The town is seemingly abandoned, everything is run down. Turns out, some people live there but they hide from the skeleton and all other visitors.
I follow one of the fleeing citizens, trying to get into their home. I knock, no answrer. I try breaking down the rotted wooden door, 'the door is more solid than it looks.' Either they're magical doors or I'm getting railroaded.
Skeleton leads us back to his house. End session.


I tried sucking up to the other players with my character, playing the nice guy etc, but instead of all belittling my character, we found a heap of new problems instead.

I understand this thread has almost turned into a 'whine about my D&D group' one, but I would still value any and all advice anyone has to offer, either for handling the DM, my evil character, or this session in general.

So your Story DM doesn't know how to tell a story and your fight DM is actively against you. Not only that, your DM's are working against each other.

My advice: the ship is sinking. Bail out and find a new group before this one falls apart.

[HMS Invincible]

Jarmen. I know your opinion of your group but are you any better than they are? Reacting to a bad group by trolling doesn't make you right. Again, go talk to your group about how comfortable they are with an evil player.

In other words, I hear that video games are a thing now. Mmorpg are freeing.

[darksolitaire]

OK, I doubt can't say anything which you don't know by now. Respect your free time enough to bail out. At this point the relations are starting to sour, and you can come off at escalating with all that stuff with repairing the bow string. I have some experience with people similar to your DM, and from his point of view it's you who is at fault here.

If you're set on staying with the group, my best advice is to turn other cheek and have infinite patience. They're making you victim? Accept that. Someone knocks your prone? React in rational manner, yelling what's wrong with you!? At best you can get some perverse enjoyment about how absurd the situation is.

[Jarmen4u]

Jarmen. I know your opinion of your group but are you any better than they are? Reacting to a bad group by trolling doesn't make you right. Again, go talk to your group about how comfortable they are with an evil player.

In other words, I hear that video games are a thing now. Mmorpg are freeing.

Not to sound asinine, but which part of my actions could be considered trolling? If you're referring to the bowstring incident, pretty much all of the players by that point had realized that the fight was futile and didn't really mind me going off to fix my bow. Also, nobody has actually made a big deal out of my being evil. Honestly the only one who has cared enough to mention it is the cleric, because it causes friction between our characters.

And like I mentioned at the end, my sucking up and being nice has gotten them off my back, so the tormenting isn't really there anymore, plus the first mate is presumed lost at sea so she can't really instigate more. The main problem now is trying to deal with the DMs considering they have many conflicting interests, and also general Lawful-Evil-character-in-a-neutral/good-aligned-campaign problems as well.

Leaving the group is a given, but it won't happen any time soon unless A. I find a better group, or B. I get kicked out by the DM, which is more likely to happen due to his short temper and his affinity for bitch fits (see: the Leadership feat incident).

[HMS Invincible]

I cite you asking the Internet on how to plot revenge because the other players are bad at social Rpg games.

That aside, have you considered pretending to be nice so well that you become the mask. Aka you actually like the party and will help them. They may say they don't care but their actions speak louder. That and their poor rolplay skills are causing meta gaming. Which will foil any revenge plots.
Lastly, what is the longterm plan here? Intimidating the other players by showing how smart you are? Then What? You become a npc? Make a new char? Have solo adventure?

Posted on phone

[Dissonance]

Frankly, I have to agree with everyone mentioning how futile it is up to this point. Although I have no amount of loathing for everyone suggesting you should leave. You would have if you had that option by now, and the umteenth person giving you the same recycled information isn't going to change your plight.

So onto the advice.

If the DM is actively your adversary, adopt that role. If you consider him a friend, I'm pretty sure that this session should give you a few doubts as to that. If you are friends with the storyteller, just don't bring her up in any of the ensuing conversations. If you will have to deal with the DM or the girlfriend outside the game on a regular basis. Just don't bring up the OOC stuff.

Call him on his BS every single time. Raise a stink. Make them have to resort to threats to silence you, and even then continue to grumble. Make them fight for every inch of your cooperation. If they raise an issue, call them on their behavior in the past. Hell, if you think you can get away with it, attack them with some OOC stuff. (The Male DM certainly isn't innocent of doing this to you. At least not as motivation for the antagonism.)

Basically your going to make them fed up and get yourself kicked. Which you already mentioned is most likely going to happen anyway at this point. Make them do it on your terms instead of letting them lead you by the nose like they have. From my understanding your sessions have been miserable time sinks for yourself, turn the tables on them.

It's not blaze of glory, it's not a good ending. It's going to be dirty, messy, and more than a few bridges will be burned. It's not going to be retribution. Nor will it be justice. It will be fiery and sadistic vengeance for what they have done.

[Jarmen4u]

I cite you asking the Internet on how to plot revenge because the other players are bad at social Rpg games.

That aside, have you considered pretending to be nice so well that you become the mask. Aka you actually like the party and will help them. They may say they don't care but their actions speak louder. That and their poor rolplay skills are causing meta gaming. Which will foil any revenge plots.
Lastly, what is the longterm plan here? Intimidating the other players by showing how smart you are? Then What? You become a npc? Make a new char? Have solo adventure?

Posted on phone

Fair enough, but my advice seeking is also because I acknowledge that I am also pretty ****ty at the social side of RPGs, and was hoping for a reasonable (for my alignment) type of revenge plot. And like I said, now that I'm playing the nice guy, they've pretty much left me alone, and we're getting along better.

As for longterm, it's a bit of a twofold plan. First would be something I can get away with in the restrictive world of this game. The second would be some kind of MAD where I sabotage the other players who do ill unto me, or at least something to piss off the DM enough to kick me out. This latter point would not be reached until I find another group to play with.


Frankly, I have to agree with everyone mentioning how futile it is up to this point. Although I have no amount of loathing for everyone suggesting you should leave. You would have if you had that option by now, and the umteenth person giving you the same recycled information isn't going to change your plight.

So onto the advice.

If the DM is actively your adversary, adopt that role. If you consider him a friend, I'm pretty sure that this session should give you a few doubts as to that. If you are friends with the storyteller, just don't bring her up in any of the ensuing conversations. If you will have to deal with the DM or the girlfriend outside the game on a regular basis. Just don't bring up the OOC stuff.

Call him on his BS every single time. Raise a stink. Make them have to resort to threats to silence you, and even then continue to grumble. Make them fight for every inch of your cooperation. If they raise an issue, call them on their behavior in the past. Hell, if you think you can get away with it, attack them with some OOC stuff. (The Male DM certainly isn't innocent of doing this to you. At least not as motivation for the antagonism.)

Basically your going to make them fed up and get yourself kicked. Which you already mentioned is most likely going to happen anyway at this point. Make them do it on your terms instead of letting them lead you by the nose like they have. From my understanding your sessions have been miserable time sinks for yourself, turn the tables on them.

It's not blaze of glory, it's not a good ending. It's going to be dirty, messy, and more than a few bridges will be burned. It's not going to be retribution. Nor will it be justice. It will be fiery and sadistic vengeance for what they have done.
I think I'm too far over the edge to try this, since it's basically what I've been doing to a lesser degree up to this point. I was kicked from the OOC Skype chat group by the DM because another player was wondering why he was so angry (he threw a fit when I inquired about his opinion of the Leadership feat), and I made a passive aggressive comment regarding his sensitivity to such topics. They only added me back because the Storyteller and a couple other people wanted me to play League of Legends with them.

I would try to add friction, but at this point, any sign of protest or complaint from me would probably have me promptly booted. Which is why I was looking for an IC solution to this OOC problem.

[HMS Invincible]

Keep playing the nice guy and look for a new group. Either you'll build a relationship with your party or you find a nother group. Win win

Have you considered an alignment shift as a plot device? At least towards loyalty to the party.

[Troacctid]

Stop being passive aggressive. It never helps. Your DM might be in the wrong, but this sort of passive-aggressive thing is only going to make it worse. If you're not going to leave, play the game sincerely, don't sabotage it until you get kicked out. That's terrible.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Although I have no amount of loathing for everyone suggesting you should leave. You would have if you had that option by now, and the umteenth person giving you the same recycled information isn't going to change your plight.

Ok, you don't think us telling him he should leave is helpful and find that irritating. Please enlighten us with your "better way".


So onto the advice.

If the DM is actively your adversary, adopt that role. If you consider him a friend, I'm pretty sure that this session should give you a few doubts as to that. If you are friends with the storyteller, just don't bring her up in any of the ensuing conversations. If you will have to deal with the DM or the girlfriend outside the game on a regular basis. Just don't bring up the OOC stuff.

Call him on his BS every single time. Raise a stink. Make them have to resort to threats to silence you, and even then continue to grumble. Make them fight for every inch of your cooperation. If they raise an issue, call them on their behavior in the past. Hell, if you think you can get away with it, attack them with some OOC stuff. (The Male DM certainly isn't innocent of doing this to you. At least not as motivation for the antagonism.)

Basically your going to make them fed up and get yourself kicked. Which you already mentioned is most likely going to happen anyway at this point. Make them do it on your terms instead of letting them lead you by the nose like they have. From my understanding your sessions have been miserable time sinks for yourself, turn the tables on them.

It's not blaze of glory, it's not a good ending. It's going to be dirty, messy, and more than a few bridges will be burned. It's not going to be retribution. Nor will it be justice. It will be fiery and sadistic vengeance for what they have done.

....Awkward

[Khosan]

For future evil endeavors, keep in mind there's more than one way to skin a cat. Physical violence is but one of many ways in which you can get back at your party.

Other things you can do include: Hiring thieves to steal their equipment, hiring assassins to attack them in the night, withholding critical information (such as the presence of traps and weaknesses of enemies), spreading nasty rumors about them in town, weakening/breaking their equipment and much, much more.

Mostly what you're looking for are ways to inconvenience and/or cripple them that are difficult, if not impossible, to trace back to you or can be played off as a mistake.

Granted, I'd only do this in a setting where the DM is okay with it.

EDIT: Another fun one. Take charge of food preparation. Acquire some kind of addictive substance and add it to your target's food and drink whenever possible. Let the magic happen.

[TheIronGolem]

You would have [left the game] if you had that option by now
Are you seriously suggesting that the OP doesn't have that option? Is he being held by Somali pirates and forced to play D&D? Seems an odd thing to leave out when you're describing your gaming woes.

[HMS Invincible]

Are you seriously suggesting that the OP doesn't have that option? Is he being held by Somali pirates and forced to play D&D? Seems an odd thing to leave out when you're describing your gaming woes.

Are you seriously suggesting the OP is just trolling us and has already left his party? That's equally stupid. He's limited in his social circles with regard to D&D, and its hard to game in person with strangers. I get it, some of the others here get it. You don't. If there's not a local game shop/university/school system nearby, it's quite hard to setup a game system with people you don't already know. A crappy game is better than no game is the OP's determination.

[TheIronGolem]

Are you seriously suggesting the OP is just trolling us and has already left his party? That's equally stupid.
It's also not something that I suggested.


He's limited in his social circles with regard to D&D, and its hard to game in person with strangers. I get it, some of the others here get it. You don't.
I do get it, and nothing I said indicated otherwise.


If there's not a local game shop/university/school system nearby, it's quite hard to setup a game system with people you don't already know. A crappy game is better than no game is the OP's determination.
That's beside my point, which is that leaving a bad game is always an option, whether you feel like taking it or not. I don't know why you have chosen to put words in my mouth and get angry at me for it.

[Jarmen4u]

For future evil endeavors, keep in mind there's more than one way to skin a cat. Physical violence is but one of many ways in which you can get back at your party.

Other things you can do include: Hiring thieves to steal their equipment, hiring assassins to attack them in the night, withholding critical information (such as the presence of traps and weaknesses of enemies), spreading nasty rumors about them in town, weakening/breaking their equipment and much, much more.

Mostly what you're looking for are ways to inconvenience and/or cripple them that are difficult, if not impossible, to trace back to you or can be played off as a mistake.

Granted, I'd only do this in a setting where the DM is okay with it.

EDIT: Another fun one. Take charge of food preparation. Acquire some kind of addictive substance and add it to your target's food and drink whenever possible. Let the magic happen.

This is definitely some good advice. I'll have to run some of this by the Storyteller, but she's a bit less restrictive on what I can do as long as it doesn't ruin the story.

As for an alignment change, well, first of all, my evil alignment isn't really causing the problems (even though the DM said so), because the players were picking on him before they found out my alignment. I'm currently trying to feign an alignment shift towards something more hospitable to hopefully get into the graces of the other players.

And as others have said numerous times, although leaving the group is an option, considering I have no other group options to go to, I would rather stay in this one until I find a new group, than not be in one at all.

[Arc_knight25]

If I were in your shoes, the "if you can't beat them join them" approach would be best. Play by their rules, once the campaign is done, you can take on the reins of DMing the group for the next one. You now have all the freedom of the cosmos to do whatever you like.

Do an evil campaign, get them used to subterfuge, stealing from party members to better their causes. Then they will understand your blight of wanting to play an "evil" character.

Or a regular campaign with NPC's screwing over the group at every turn. Frame them for stuff they didn't do. Keep tabs on those alignments as they start fighting off guards saying their innocent. Direct them into the underground where they have to lie cheat and steal to clear their name. Maybe through osmosis will they learn the subtleties of being an evil character in a none evil group. Of course be calm and explain the rational behind their shifting alignment.

I wish you luck, but please don't be a **** at the table. If you aren't having a good time, just say you'll sit this one out and either find a new group or what for the next campaign. Be level headed about it, don't incite a fight, there is no need to burn bridges over a game.

[Naez]

Well something that one of my teammates actually did to me when we were arguing was I got dominated in combat and then he 'brought me down' so I wouldn't be a threat. he just 'forgot' to turn off his bonus damage enchantments on his weapon and instakilled me.

[HMS Invincible]

It's also not something that I suggested.


I do get it, and nothing I said indicated otherwise.


That's beside my point, which is that leaving a bad game is always an option, whether you feel like taking it or not. I don't know why you have chosen to put words in my mouth and get angry at me for it.

Fair statement. I apoligize for any perceived anger towards you.

[TheIronGolem]

Fair statement. I apoligize for any perceived anger towards you.

Accepted, we're good.

[Ken Murikumo]

Well if you happen to be in the Attleboro area, my group is looking for some new blood.

Anyways, from everything that i've read it definitely seems like your combat DM is going to work against YOU and only you at every opportunity he has. You and the Story-teller DM may have worked out some character points and she may allow your petty pranks / Non-PK revenge (as stated), but i'd be willing to bet, the other DM would make it all work totally against you.

You don't want to leave, and i can totally sympathize with that. If i quit my group, finding another group would be problematic. But unlike you the only ****-facious things i've had to deal with are the players (one specifically) taking advantage of generous & ignorant DMs and building illegal characters with broken abilities. But now that i know what i'm doing, that CR 1/3 that almost killed his level 2 gestalt made him rethink his Iop strategy... (Insert evil grin)

Err... Oh, yeah, the point: With combat DM being like you've described, the only thing you will have to remember about that character when you retire him is that he was screwed most of the time and even forced to alter his alignment to satisfy everyone but yourself. You probably wont have any truly epic moments or "tales to tell" when the campaign comes to fruition (assuming that actually happens). You shouldn't have to force an alignment change unless that's how you WANT the character to develop, not saying forced character changes cant be memorable or beneficial but if it goes against the character concept, it's usually not initially desired.

You said everyone but the cleric was cool with your alignment. Instead of changing it, give him (her) a very good IC reason for not smiting you like, "Your survival depends on me, as much as, my own with you. If I I'm constantly looking over my shoulder we will both die." And make a contract to stay loyal to the party as long as they do the same. Your lawful, not just evil. The party is there to forward your own desires, but they are necessary, not expendable. This is generally the logic i use with my LE characters.

[frost890]

You said that you were put on the ship as part of a guild. both ships and guilds have rules. What are they? Use them. second you can steal something from a passenger or the captain of the ship and plant it. anyone that is forced to live on a ship or closely with any group of people for traveling and safety will take theft in a very bad light. Think of a crime lord for a bit. They take control and will more often then not keep there word. They will also have someone on the payroll who is more then willing to do the chaotic evil deeds that need doing. who is the crazy member of the crew that will take violent action to there pay being found in another bed rack? if you are trying to keep with the party you might even stage it so that you save them from the attack. lawful evil uses the rules to get the upper hand and they do it with a smile.

[Astralia123]

{{scrubbed}}

[Extra Anchovies]

<snip>

No. "Interesting" is not the word here. Nor is "suitable".

[Troacctid]

No. "Interesting" is not the word here. Nor is "suitable".

The word I'd go with would probably be "terrible" or "horrible," but "What the **** is wrong with you?" is also on the table.

[Astralia123]

The word I'd go with would probably be "terrible" or "horrible," but "What the **** is wrong with you?" is also on the table.

Let's say I'm capable of being somewhat evil (while actually not). Result of keeping an eye for years on dark side of humanity.

Well you must admit, it can be an acceptable joke for some certain gaming groups...I mean, those groups who are open enough with sex, with a strong sense of humor, and good at in-and-out-of-character splitting. (Definitely difficult, if not impossible, to find one when you are not already in it.)

[KillianHawkeye]

I implied the same thing back on page 1 and nobody threw a fit about it then. Maybe it's because I left the details up to the imagination? Whatever. It's not something that is universally unacceptable. In fact, the presence of sex in a game setting can vary a lot from group to group depending on the openness and maturity levels of those involved.

[Vortenger]

Do an evil campaign, get them used to subterfuge, stealing from party members to better their causes. Then they will understand your blight of wanting to play an "evil" character.

You made me giggle at work. Uncool, bro. Uncool.