Optimizing a battle jumper, probably for the 50th time

[lytokk]

In my ongoing quest to make Kain Highwind from FF4 (original thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357318-Making-Kain-Highwind-from-Final-Fantasy-4-looking-for-feedback-Warblade-Build&highlight=kain+highwind), but won't bring back due to necro), I was reading the current thread about barbarians, where Battle Jump was brought up. Never heard of the feat, went to read about it, and I was wondering how it would interact with the up the walls psionic feat? If running up the walls to drop down onto opponents works, then I think adding a few levels of psychic warrior to the warblade build I had thought of could be beneficial. Originally thought just one, but with the extra bonus feat and bonus power I could pick up speed of thought and grab the powers Burst and Catfall. Of course, the build isn't wisdom prioritized, so my power points would be minimal, unless I rearranged my score priorities.

I guess the questions are
1) does battle jump work with up the walls? (assuming of course I get the DM to handwave the regional requirement)

2) are levels in psychic warrior the best bet for gaining PP access in order to get up the walls? Or would I be better off dropping the human race and instead using a psionic race?

3) If I did take psychic warrior, how should I re-prioritize my stats. Currently the priority is Str>Int>Dex>Con>Cha>Wis.

4) I've figured its best to take psychic warrior 2 first in order to get second level manuevers instead of first at war1. Just not a lot of jumping manuevers in first level.

The character is more of a thought exercise for now, unless my character in the one game I'm playing dies.

Current feat plan w/o psychic warrior (til level 6) is
1: Power Attack
Human: Leap of the Heavens
3: Maybe Quickdraw, unless I can think of something better.
5: Improved Initiative (warblade bonus)
6: Leap Attack

Any feedback would be helpful, and yes I read the little red raiding hood build, which is where I put up the walls and battle jump together. I'm still learning this whole optimizing thing, and this is my second real exercise with it.

[Blackhawk748]

1) does battle jump work with up the walls? (assuming of course I get the DM to handwave the regional requirement)


i dont see why it wouldnt, you just need to drop on them from at least 5' up, fairly easy, or you could just jump at them.

[lytokk]

i dont see why it wouldnt, you just need to drop on them from at least 5' up, fairly easy, or you could just jump at them.

The problem I found with it was you have to be 5 feet above them when you start the fall. Which is a DC 40 jump check for a medium creature. Or did I read the feat wrong?

[Blackhawk748]

The problem I found with it was you have to be 5 feet above them when you start the fall. Which is a DC 40 jump check for a medium creature. Or did I read the feat wrong?

Wow, i forgot it was that bad, so scratch that, just run up the walls and then jump on top of them, or optimize the bejeezus out of Jump, which i understand is fairly easy, just dont ask me how :smallbiggrin:

[lytokk]

As an addition, what options are there for storing power points? Something where I could put PP into it on down days in order to use them later.

[Martimus Prime]

As an addition, what options are there for storing power points? Something where I could put PP into it on down days in order to use them later.

Cognizance crystals are the main way. I think there's a way to treat your psicrystal as one (also good for extra psionic focus storage). If you need a specific power, a psicrown or dorje (if it doesn't need augment) could be considered.

[Lokd0wn]

Wow, i forgot it was that bad, so scratch that, just run up the walls and then jump on top of them, or optimize the bejeezus out of Jump, which i understand is fairly easy, just dont ask me how :smallbiggrin:

One of the easiest ways is to get Leaping Dragon Stance which seems to add 10 feet to any jump. Some people may interpret it otherwise so it'd be wise to check beforehand.

[lytokk]

Thats a pretty bad editing job. On a horizontal jump, its +10, on a vertical jump, its +40 to the check... but 10 feet is 10 feet. Thanks for the heads up, hadn't looked at any of the 3rd level stances yet, but the two levels of psywar would let me get it. Man, now I want to start playing this guy.

[Darrin]

1) does battle jump work with up the walls? (assuming of course I get the DM to handwave the regional requirement)


Probably not, although it depends a great deal on how your DM interprets Battle Jump, and the feat isn't really written in any manner that could be reasonably called coherent. Some of the forum experts (notably Curmudgeon) insist that although Battle Jump allows you to treat a fall as a charge, it does not change the normal restrictions for a charge, namely: 1) You must have a full-round action available and 2) you must still move in a straight line. With such a strict interpretation, the feat is generally only useable if you are hanging on a vertical surface and your opponent is dumb enough to stand directly below you.

If your DM is giving you grief over Battle Jump, the Roof-Jumper feat in Cityscape does something a little similar, but it's not written all that much clearer, and it requires three nearly-useless prereqs.



2) are levels in psychic warrior the best bet for gaining PP access in order to get up the walls? Or would I be better off dropping the human race and instead using a psionic race?


Human + PsyWar 2 is usually recommended because it gives you three bonus feats, and optimizing Battle Jump to do anything interesting usually requires a metric buttload of feats. You're also probably taking a lot of non-psionic levels (such as Dungeon Crasher Fighter), so buffing PP is usually something of an afterthought. There aren't any decent psionic races that offer anything useful without LA, so it's probably best to stick with Human. Mostly you want PsyWar for low-level powers like expansion, catfall, or hustle, which lend themselves well to a dip. If you take the Mantled Pyschich Warrior ACF, you can trade one of your bonus feats for access to the Freedom mantle, where you can grab dimension hop along with hustle two levels early.



3) If I did take psychic warrior, how should I re-prioritize my stats. Currently the priority is Str>Int>Dex>Con>Cha>Wis.


Depends a bit on how you're trying to dish out DPS. If you focus on Power Attack/Leap Attack, then Str>Dex. If you're doing something with TWF, you may need Dex higher. You'll also want to avoid Wis as your dump stat, as you can get bonus PP with a higher Wis from your character level rather than PsyWar level.

Given your feat choices... I think I'd try: Str>Con>Wis>Dex>Int>Cha.



4) I've figured its best to take psychic warrior 2 first in order to get second level manuevers instead of first at war1. Just not a lot of jumping manuevers in first level.


I think I missed what levels you you were taking of what, but Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Leading the Charge (stance) are a good start. I'm a big fan of Mountain Hammer, and Wall of Blades is always nice, but optimization is always a struggle between what you *want* and what you *need* to make the build work.



Current feat plan w/o psychic warrior (til level 6) is
1: Power Attack
Human: Leap of the Heavens
3: Maybe Quickdraw, unless I can think of something better.


Improved Bull Rush at 3 clears the way for Shock Trooper later. Otherwise, Travel Devotion can help you set up your Battle Jumps.



Any feedback would be helpful, and yes I read the little red raiding hood build, which is where I put up the walls and battle jump together. I'm still learning this whole optimizing thing, and this is my second real exercise with it.

My last attempt at abusing Battle Jump: Thumpback (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16756072&postcount=44).

[lytokk]

Alright, now that I've gotten a bit of sleep, I realized my mistake in IL calculations. So I'm looking at something like this

Just using the elite array

Str:16 (+1 level 4)
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 13
Cha: 8

1: Psywar
Feat 1: Power Attack
Feat 2: Leap of the Heavens
Psywar Feat: Up the walls
Power: Burst

2: Psywar (IL 1)
Psywar Feat: Speed of thought
Power: Catfall

3: Warblade (IL2)
Feat: Battle Jump
Stance: I'm really not seeing a great stance for jumping here, so I figure some utility with Hunter's Sense, shore up some spot and listen with a scent ability.
Maneuver 1: Sudden Leap
Maneuver 2: Steel Wind? I'm pretty sure this won't work with battle jump, but its not like I'll be able to charge or fall and attack every round
Maneuver 3: Moment of Perfect mind
(would do wolf fang strike, but the whole idea is to use a halberd or spear. I don't think I could 1 hand a 2 handed weapon to use that strike)

4: Warblade (IL 3)
+1 Str
Maneuver: Claw at the Moon

5: Warblade (IL 4)
Maneuver: Mountain Hammer

6: Warblade (IL 5)
Feat: Leap Attack
Stance: Leaping Dragon Stance
Maneuver Traded: Steel Wind for Soaring Raptor Strike

I really only plan out til 6, since in the games I've played it, they've either ended there, or we start at 5 and this is the first level. Hows it look?

[kardar233]

I don't know if you've seen it before but here's the Hood Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1659301).

[lytokk]

I check back with it from time to time to see if it spawns any new ideas, like with this exercise in putting some psywar in what was a pure warblade build in order to combine battle jump with up the walls.

[Mato]

Just an example for you to consider and obtain ideas from.

Dragonborn water orc psychic fighter 2 / warblade 4
Power attack, improved bullrush, shock trooper, battle jump, headlong rush, leap attack, any feat, 2 flaws.
With leaping dragon stance you can high jump 16ft in the air from a standing start on a roll of 1.
Manifesting lion's charge you deal +14/+7 halberd (4d10+132), 154 per hit and 308 per round on average.

[lytokk]

Just an example for you to consider and obtain ideas from.

Dragonborn water orc psychic fighter 2 / warblade 4
Power attack, improved bullrush, shock trooper, battle jump, headlong rush, leap attack, any feat, 2 flaws.
With leaping dragon stance you can high jump 16ft in the air from a standing start on a roll of 1.
Manifesting lion's charge you deal +14/+7 halberd (4d10+132), 154 per hit and 308 per round on average.

Is psychic fighter something different than psychic warrior?

Also, just noticed that at level 6, leap of the heavens becomes a little redundant when having leaping dragons stance. Maybe need to switch that out for something. Imp Bullrush could work, but I'm not so much looking into shock trooper. Games I play in tend toward the lower end of mid power, sometimes people do outshine, but not always.

[KingSmitty]

Also note that for every 10 feet of movement you have above 30 you gain a cumulative +4 to jump. My level 6 barbarian has a 60 foot speed with traits and prcs giving a total of +26 to jump checks. One more prc with fast movement and ill reliably be getting 40dc jumps without leaping dragon

[lytokk]

That was the whole idea behind speed of thought. From the look of things right now I've got

9 (ranks) + 3 (str) +2 (synergy from tumble) +4 (speed of thought) +4 (burst) for a +20 to jump checks at level 6. So, with Leaping dragon, that's either a 15 foot vertical or 30 foot horizontal jump.

Maybe get rid of leap of the heavens and instead get the Run feat for another +4 since leap of the heavens is made obsolete by leaping dragon.

[lytokk]

Also, I need to check to make sure I've got the math for leap attack done right, since the feat seems to be, not worded well.

For every 1 BAB I trade off, on a two handed weapon with normal power attack I get 2 damage. So with leap attack, I get an extra 300% which would mean 6, or does it mean 5 since the bonuses don't multiply, just add.

[Mato]

Is psychic fighter something different than psychic warrior?No, that's just me. Warrior is an npc class, fighter is a pc class, psychic something is a psionic pc class. Must be "psychic fighter" right?

Nope, it's "psychic warrior". :smallsigh:

Dragonborn trades away most of your racial traits, you keep ability alterations, and if you select the winged option you get a dive attack and +10 to jump checks. It's already factored in my prior post, through not specifically highlighted.

[lytokk]

ahh, understandable. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't another psionic class. Since there's psychic rogue, maybe there's psychic fighter, but I couldn't think of what the difference between that class and psychic warrior would be.

Either way, dragonborn would be a nice boost, but its one of those templates I normally associate with higher power playing, which my group isn't. Also in my mind this guy's allignment is just south of LN, so no dragonborn.

[Bluydee]

ahh, understandable. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't another psionic class. Since there's psychic rogue, maybe there's psychic fighter, but I couldn't think of what the difference between that class and psychic warrior would be.

Either way, dragonborn would be a nice boost, but its one of those templates I normally associate with higher power playing, which my group isn't. Also in my mind this guy's allignment is just south of LN, so no dragonborn.

A common misconception. Dragonborn works for any nonevil.