Dark Wings, Dark Tidings: A Guide to the Path of War: Expanded Harbinger

[Elricaltovilla]

Alright, for my next guide I give you the Harbinger!

The first class to be previewed for Path of War: Expanded, the Harbinger is a mobile striker with an emphasis on debuffing the enemy through the use of darkness and malevolence. Consider this equal parts preview and review.

The Harbinger Guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kSmuTy1Hmg6w0lYSW7xoyJKRdAOgTDU1piejfEt37Yg/edit?usp=sharing)

Obviously I could continue to add more, which is why I'm doing this in google docs, easier to edit, no word limit etc.
At some point I'll get around to moving my other POW guides over and updating them, promise.

[ghanjrho]

First, you forgot Forgeborn. +2 STR +2 INT -4 CHA half-construct, and you can even swap out the Slow and Steady.

Second, you need to update your Primal Fury and Veiled Moon sections. A lot of the more... Notorious maneuvers got edited for the final product, Blade of Fury not least amongst them.

[stack]

Elan are humanoid (aberrant), so no type-based advantages for them.

[Elricaltovilla]

First, you forgot Forgeborn. +2 STR +2 INT -4 CHA half-construct, and you can even swap out the Slow and Steady.

Second, you need to update your Primal Fury and Veiled Moon sections. A lot of the more... Notorious maneuvers got edited for the final product, Blade of Fury not least amongst them.

I didn't forget them. I have no information on them because they aren't on the pfsrd.

[The Glyphstone]

Will you be covering the two beta Archetypes for Harbinger as well, Crimson Countess and Ravenlord?

[Elricaltovilla]

Will you be covering the two beta Archetypes for Harbinger as well, Crimson Countess and Ravenlord?

That depends on how much motivation I can muster up. Chances are thatiI'll move all my guides to Google docs and update them, and add the archetypes all in one go.

[Novawurmson]

Always glad to see these. Out of propriety, mind if I add this to the guide to the guides?

[Elricaltovilla]

Always glad to see these. Out of propriety, mind if I add this to the guide to the guides?

Go right ahead.

[Elfkin_King]

Concerning Magic Aura....
Couldn't you use it as a Bluff modifier for your weapon and armor, making opponents think that you're either weaker or stronger than you are at the start of combat to give you an edge?
For example: You're wearing a chain shirt. You use this ability to make it LOOK like you're wearing Full Plate and you're running around the battle field just slaughtering. Well, I'm pretty sure that Pooky the Goblin isn't going to want to attack you if you're doing that.
Or Maybe make an opponent think you're wielding a Great Sword when you're really holding a Reach Weapon of some sort. So that the above mentioned Pooky get's closer than he thought he should carelessly (AoO).

Or am I overthinking the usefulness of this?

[The Glyphstone]

Concerning Magic Aura....
Couldn't you use it as a Bluff modifier for your weapon and armor, making opponents think that you're either weaker or stronger than you are at the start of combat to give you an edge?
For example: You're wearing a chain shirt. You use this ability to make it LOOK like you're wearing Full Plate and you're running around the battle field just slaughtering. Well, I'm pretty sure that Pooky the Goblin isn't going to want to attack you if you're doing that.
Or Maybe make an opponent think you're wielding a Great Sword when you're really holding a Reach Weapon of some sort. So that the above mentioned Pooky get's closer than he thought he should carelessly (AoO).

Or am I overthinking the usefulness of this?

No, because that's not what Magic Aura does. It doesn't change your gear's appearance, it just alters what magical auras they give off.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/magic-aura

[Elricaltovilla]

No, because that's not what Magic Aura does. It doesn't change your gear's appearance, it just alters what magical auras they give off.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/magic-aura

Thank you for that. Magic Aura is really only useful in the following situations:

1) Trying to pretend that your equipment is less valuable than it actually is (hiding the magic aura, easily beaten)
2) Trying to pretend your vendor trash is more valuable than it actually is (adding magic aura, again, easily beaten)
3) .... pretty much under no other circumstances.

So at will magic aura is just kind of wimpy.

[The Glyphstone]

Thank you for that. Magic Aura is really only useful in the following situations:

1) Trying to pretend that your equipment is less valuable than it actually is (hiding the magic aura, easily beaten)
2) Trying to pretend your vendor trash is more valuable than it actually is (adding magic aura, again, easily beaten)
3) .... pretty much under no other circumstances.

So at will magic aura is just kind of wimpy.

It can also alter auras, and isn't limited to school-of-magic ones - so you can do things like carry around your +5 Unholy Avenger without tipping off the Paladin. But situations where making a magic item appear to be a different sort of magic item are so incredibly niche that 'wimpy' is still applicable.

[Jigawatts]

I still contend that Harbingers should be a Charisma based class. The whole thing is based on channeling your dark, negative emotions, why these people are super smart doesn't really make sense. I mean highly intelligent people have a tendency to be less emotional if anything. Overall its fluff and its crunch just feel disconnected.

[Milo v3]

I still contend that Harbingers should be a Charisma based class. The whole thing is based on channeling your dark, negative emotions, why these people are super smart doesn't really make sense. I mean highly intelligent people have a tendency to be less emotional if anything. Overall its fluff and its crunch just feel disconnected.

Never seen the cold smart psychopath trope?
Also, there was a giant post somewhere that described the flavour of the harbinger more accurately I suppose, which perfectly fit intelligence.

[squiggit]

I still contend that Harbingers should be a Charisma based class. The whole thing is based on channeling your dark, negative emotions, why these people are super smart doesn't really make sense. I mean highly intelligent people have a tendency to be less emotional if anything. Overall its fluff and its crunch just feel disconnected.

I agree with you, though my conclusion was the opposite (that the harbinger's fluff should be changed to be more intellectual).


Never seen the cold smart psychopath trope?
Cold psychopath or master-of-fear on an intellectual level are both cool archetypes.

But it doesn't change the fact that the Harbinger's fluff has phrases like "Harbingers channel their negative emotions" and "the Harbinger may concentrate on her inner negativity", which emphatically do not line up with those archetypes and honestly look more like something you'd pull out of the Wilder's class features.

This also probably should be in the path of war expanded thread.

[Elricaltovilla]

I still contend that Harbingers should be a Charisma based class. The whole thing is based on channeling your dark, negative emotions, why these people are super smart doesn't really make sense. I mean highly intelligent people have a tendency to be less emotional if anything. Overall its fluff and its crunch just feel disconnected.

I'm not making judgements on how appropriate the class features are, I'm just highlighting the good vs. the bad. If they're disconnected, change the fluff. The crunch is really good in my opinion.

[squiggit]

Yeah, the crunch is awesome.. and I haven't found any disputes with the guide yet (though there's a few more things I want to test).

The closest thing to a "complaint" I have with the actual class is that it gets so much good stuff from Int that it's really hard for me to justify playing a race that doesn't get a +2 there.

[Elricaltovilla]

Yeah, the crunch is awesome.. and I haven't found any disputes with the guide yet (though there's a few more things I want to test).

The closest thing to a "complaint" I have with the actual class is that it gets so much good stuff from Int that it's really hard for me to justify playing a race that doesn't get a +2 there.

Hence my ratings for most of the races. Its just too important to pass up.

[Jigawatts]

Thats another thing, I think it is too SAD. No character should get that much from one single stat. Even the all-mighty Wizard doesn't use his Int mod when rolling to hit with an Enervation spell.

[squiggit]

Thats another thing, I think it is too SAD. No character should get that much from one single stat. Even the all-mighty Wizard doesn't use his Int mod when rolling to hit with an Enervation spell.

Yeah, have to completely disagree there. The Wizard might not be able to roll to-hit with enervation, but he's also not a front-liner, which makes him a lot less reliant on con or dex (especially if he just avoids the touch spells).

Without Accursed Will you need the Int of a Wizard (because you're Save DCs: The class), the strength of a fighter, the dex of a rogue and the con of a barbarian all at the same time and it's just really not particularly manageable unless you're an aasimar or tiefling.

Even with accursed will you can't dump strength and you're still gonna need a helluva lot more dex and con than your wizard buddy.

[Ironsides]

I just noticed something about the Stance of the Ether Gate. In the last line of the detailed description it says "This stance meets the qualifications for the Dimensional Agility feats, should the initiator wish to take them (Path of War page 120)." So I looked them up.

Dimensional Agility: After using abundant step or casting dimension door, you can take any actions you still have remaining on your turn. You also gain a +4 bonus on Concentration checks when casting teleportation spells.

Dimensional Assault, Dimensional Maneuvers, Dimensional Dervish, and Dimensional Savant make up the rest of this feat chain.

I guess that the stance without Dimensional Agility does not let you do anything during your turn after you use it. What do you guys think?

Edited for bad spelling. :(

[Sayt]

My guess is that it lets you use Dimensional Dervish Et Al for pseudo-pouncing and self flanking and such.

EDIT: I just realized Outflank gets really good with Ether-Gate stance, especially since you can get Attacks of opportunity off of your own crits.

[Rickshaw]

I think making harbingers SAD fits the fluff better. They seem kinda emo ;D



And as for the teleportation: anything based of the dimension door spell makes you end your turn after the teleport. The spell states this explicitly, hence the need for the dimensional dervish feat line.

[Sayt]

Stance of the Ether Gate doesn't actually posit that it works like Dimension door, just that it states that you qualify for Dimensional Agility line should you desire to take them.

[Captain Morgan]

So I am building an Investigator for a low combat home game, and I just realized that a dip into Harbinger might be the best multiclass option available. My guy is probably going be running 18 INT, so it's a +2 bonus on attack rolls, extra movement, and access to a few maneuvers to help diversify my action economy.

Also, I'm going to be starting at level 8 or 9, and if I am reading the rules for Initiator level right, taking the dip as a later level will let me access higher level maneuvers for my very limited pool. Is this correct?

Either way, with this only being a one level dip, I'm not sure what maneuvers to choose. Any advice?

[Elricaltovilla]

So I am building an Investigator for a low combat home game, and I just realized that a dip into Harbinger might be the best multiclass option available. My guy is probably going be running 18 INT, so it's a +2 bonus on attack rolls, extra movement, and access to a few maneuvers to help diversify my action economy.

Also, I'm going to be starting at level 8 or 9, and if I am reading the rules for Initiator level right, taking the dip as a later level will let me access higher level maneuvers for my very limited pool. Is this correct?

Either way, with this only being a one level dip, I'm not sure what maneuvers to choose. Any advice?

If you want specific help with a build, I recommend making a separate thread about it, you'll get more views and more directly helpful replies.

Your non-initiator levels count as 1/2 an initiator level for determining what level of maneuvers you gain. So in your case, you would have an IL of 5 assuming your build was Investigator 8/Harbinger 1, giving you access to 3rd level maneuvers to start.

Finally, I recommend you use my current compiled guide thread if you have questions about the guides themselves, as I've moved all my PoW guides into one place for ease of use. You can find the link in my signature.

[Captain Morgan]

If you want specific help with a build, I recommend making a separate thread about it, you'll get more views and more directly helpful replies.

Your non-initiator levels count as 1/2 an initiator level for determining what level of maneuvers you gain. So in your case, you would have an IL of 5 assuming your build was Investigator 8/Harbinger 1, giving you access to 3rd level maneuvers to start.

Finally, I recommend you use my current compiled guide thread if you have questions about the guides themselves, as I've moved all my PoW guides into one place for ease of use. You can find the link in my signature.

Sure, sorry. Didn't mean to bring your thread off topic. I just figured there didn't seem to be a ton of Harbinger traffic, so I may as well keep it consolidated. And thank you for the guide; it's very helpful.

[Captain Morgan]

So, whenever updates happen post Path of War, I think it might be worth upgrading the Tiefling to purple, or perhaps downgrading the human to blue. The final Harbinger is much more MAD, and both STR and DEX builds will appreciate those stat bonuses and penalties when it is trying to stretch it's point buy. With alternate racial features you get your choice of energy resistances, natural armor, darkness, deathwatch, bonuses to some of the best skills, natural weapons, and a prehensile tail.

But perhaps most notably, the Tiefling Favored Class Bonus allows you to snag +1/4 maneuver known from Cursed Razor or Black Seraph. If your game doesn't allow Martial Orders (which many won't because of RP reasons and their free mecahnical benefits) then Tiefling let's you snag choice entries like Circle of Razor Feathers that you'd otherwise have to burn a trait for. That trait can then go towards something like Clever Wordplay for further stat consolidation.

I'm not sure if all that outweighs the bonus feat per se, but I think the Tiefling is definitely worth looking at if you don't have 25+ point buys or really generous stat arrays.