Straight Wizard Gish

[tricktroller]

Help! Lol.

Hey again Folks of the Playground!

I am looking to make a human wizard who is a gish without multiclassing or prestiging or doing so as little as possible.
With that being said, Just about everything is open, including 3rd party material (But not incarnum or tome of magic for some reason) and stuff like dragon mag.

We are allowed one flaw.

Go nuts. Also I have outrageously good stats so do not worry about MADness.

Thank you for your time and help! I am working on this issue as well with my collection of books, but I like to have other people help so I don't miss anythig! :Irony)

[Urpriest]

Basically, the way to do this is to sneak Divine Power onto your list, and Persist it. Since you're going straight Wizard, that will require a feat-based way to get free metamagic. I'd google Metanode Spell.

Why, by the way? Has your DM banned PrCs?

[Troacctid]

The easiest way is to Polymorph. Turn into something big and nasty and go to town.

[Extra Anchovies]

The easiest way is to Polymorph. Turn into something big and nasty and go to town.

Seconded.

However, there's still the hit points issue. You remain squishy, which is not a good thing.

[Valwyn]

If you can manage to get a PrC, try Abjurant Champion. It only takes Combat Casting (not the best feat, but handy for a gish), and you get Full casting, full BAB, and 5d10.

Other than that, Polymorph/Shapechange and Tenser's Transformation?

[tricktroller]

It hasn't been banned, but I would like to run as true to a regular wizard in robes being a bad mother trucker.

I understand polymorph and its ilk are my friend, but I was more meaning the class build itself.

Feats, weapons, to use etc.

spells beyond polymorph.

I thought about taking ability enhancer, but now I am also looking at several other options. Another option I am thinking about taking is a wizard/cleric/arcanist(3rd party prc)/ Mystic Theurge which is about as far from gish as possible, but would still be pretty disgusting with 9/9 casting at 10th level (Caster level and spells known not 9th level spells)

[Zombulian]

Well if you can't get your hands on Divine Power, look into getting a Skillful Weapon to use. It changes your BAB to medium while using it. While you're at it, use the Martial Wizard variant to sneak in some fighter feats. The others weren't kidding when they said that this build is going to be feat heavy.

[fishyfishyfishy]

What is your end goal with this method of character creation?

If you're just trying to keep it simple and powerful you can stick to core: Wizard 3 / Fighter 2 / Eldritch Knight 10 / Wizard 5

You end up with the standard +16 BAB and 9ths by 20th level. If you open up other material you can sub in things like Abjurant Champion (which is incredibly good) in place of the Wiz 5 at the end there.

A straight wizard can do it fine, they just lack the HP to take a hit or two. And at early levels they won't have the number of spells per day to do it reliably.

Edit: I seem to have forgotten that Eldritch Knight requires 3rd level spells. So entry will probably be Wizard 5 / Fighter 1.

[sideswipe]

i swear there is a rule to give a wizard a domain, if so take war domain. you get divine power.

another aspect is lost tradition, take that feat and change your casting stat for all reasons to dex or strength. then put your highest ability score into it.
this might make up for the most part on the loss of base attack bonus.

or you could take arcane thesis and a couple other meta magic reducers and use quickened true strike on yourself, you should easily be able to cast it as a 3rd level spell. meaning that when you have 4-5 of them a day by being a generalist wizard (or a specialised wizard) you can just go nuts and make an uber powerful melee combatant. you could even use higher spell slots for it..... lol yeah right

just some ideas you can tweak and incorporate

[Troacctid]

i swear there is a rule to give a wizard a domain, if so take war domain. you get divine power.

You can get a domain granted ability in place of a Wizard bonus feat (Complete Champion p52), you can take the Arcane Disciple feat to get extremely limited access to spells from a single Cleric domain (Complete Divine p79), and/or you can be a Domain Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard), but none of those is really the same as giving you access to a domain.

There's also Tenser's Transformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transformation.htm), of course, which does a good Divine Power impression.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use Alter Self to get a natural armor bonus, and (Greater) Luminous Armor and Shield for armor and shield bonuses.
Use Fell Drain and/or Fell Frighten with (Persistent) Fire Shield twice and Death Armor.
Use Fell Drain and/or Fell Frighten with (Persistent) Cloud of Knives and Thunderlance and put Greater Magic Weapon on the latter.
Use (Persistent or Wand of) Wraithstrike.
Divine Power is entirely optional, but definitely a good choice.
Get Combat Reflexes, since Thunderlance has such a long reach.
Feats should be spent on being able to persist higher level spells.

Edit: Persistent Greater/Superior Invisibility is also highly recommended, as well as any sort of magical flight with good or better maneuverability.

[WhamBamSam]

Seconded.

However, there's still the hit points issue. You remain squishy, which is not a good thing.Necropolitan Grey Elf with Faerie Mysteries Initiate would be my answer, but he has to be human which puts a damper on everything save for possible necropolitan HP boost shenanigans.


You can get a domain granted ability in place of a Wizard bonus feat (Complete Champion p52), you can take the Arcane Disciple feat to get extremely limited access to spells from a single Cleric domain (Complete Divine p79), and/or you can be a Domain Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard), but none of those is really the same as giving you access to a domain.

There's also Tenser's Transformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transformation.htm), of course, which does a good Divine Power impression.Use a Wand of Substitute Domain as a Domain Wizard to get any domain your deity has access to for weeks at a time.

[Troacctid]

Use a Wand of Substitute Domain as a Domain Wizard to get any domain your deity has access to for weeks at a time.

Despite having "domain" in the name, Domain Wizards don't actually have domains, so Substitute Domain has no effect for them.


domain: A granted power and a set of nine divine spells (one each of 1st through 9th level) themed around a particular concept and associated with one or more deities.

Some of the arcane domains described below have the same name as a divine domain. Regardless of any apparent similarity, these domains have no connection to one another.

[WhamBamSam]

Despite having "domain" in the name, Domain Wizards don't actually have domains, so Substitute Domain has no effect for them.I hadn't seen the glossary definition, as I almost exclusively use the SRD. That's enough to make you right, though I don't think that the domain wizard text would have done it on its own. Arcane Domains are referred to simply as domains elsewhere in the Domain Wizard text, and without a definition specifying that "domain" generally refers to divine domain (ie, everywhere outside the specific context of Domain Wizards) the domains in Substitute Domain's effect wouldn't have a way of differentiating between the two. But you're still right. When Substitute Domain checks to see if you have access to domains, it specifically checks if you have divine domains, and therefore doesn't turn anything up for domain wizards.

You can still get some spell list expansion out of Substitute Domain as a wizard, but you need a dip in Divine Oracle or something, so a straight-classed wizard can't pull it off.

[Endarire]

Player's Guide to Faerun has the Incantatrix PrC which is effectively Wizard++ or Sorcerer++ depending on your entry.

Also, you can go Hood (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2462.0) as a straight Wizard. I went Dragonborn Whisper Gnome Hood Illusionist1/Shadowcraft MageX via Heighten Spell and Metamagic School Focus and net of shadow.

[Xerlith]

Wizard5/Eldritch Knigth10/Abjurant Champion5

Militia feat takes care of MWP reqs

[Andezzar]

Wizard5/Eldritch Knigth10/Abjurant Champion5

Militia feat takes care of MWP reqsBeing an outsider (Neraph for LA+0, or Tiefling for the attribute points for example) will achieve the same thing plus you can do the Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange Shenanigans.

If you play in Faerun you can take the otherworldly feat with an elf to benefit from all of the above plus taking the Elven Generalist Substitution Level (RotW p. 157) for more spells/level.

[tricktroller]

Hey folks! Thanks for all the replies!

A few notes to add that I forgot when I first posted,
Races are
PHB Human
PHB Elf
or PHB Half Elf. No other races allowed, nor is Necropolitan.

I thank you for posting the exact same builds that are posted all over the place for gishes that are multiclassing, however, I want a straight wizard gish. No multiclassing, no prestiging, nada.

I thought about taking a human wizard and using twf and somatic weaponry to make a fun gish, but I think I might make it an elf with a longspear.

[Urpriest]

Hey folks! Thanks for all the replies!

A few notes to add that I forgot when I first posted,
Races are
PHB Human
PHB Elf
or PHB Half Elf. No other races allowed, nor is Necropolitan.

I thank you for posting the exact same builds that are posted all over the place for gishes that are multiclassing, however, I want a straight wizard gish. No multiclassing, no prestiging, nada.

I thought about taking a human wizard and using twf and somatic weaponry to make a fun gish, but I think I might make it an elf with a longspear.

The advice we can give you if you don't want to PrC at all is pretty limited. For example, gishes get a lot better when they have access to Persisted spells, which are hard to do without having any PrCs. You can do it via Metanode spell as mentioned, and I think there might be an Incarnum-based way to do it. Otherwise, you're stuck with Skillfull weapon as the only way to increase your BAB, which is again advice we've already given you.

If you're highly invested in the "guy with robes" image, I take it you want to avoid the Luminous Armor line.

[Andezzar]

Gishing generally is not the optimal choice for a wizard. Other classes can hit things harder easier. If on top of that you do not want to use PrC you are further hampering the concept. Why not do a more traditional God wizard? A single class cleric pretty much is a gish in a can.

A single class wizard will have two fewer attacks than a fighter or other full BAB class, STR probably won't be his strongest attribute, and even if the rest is equal his attack will be 10 points lower than than a full BAB class. You will need a lot of magic just to keep up.

And then there are the fewer hit points and the bad Fort and Ref saves.

[tricktroller]

Spells are completely fine. If his spell makes him some glowey magical force armor that is completely ok lol. What I don't want is to be playing the same abjurant champion build that everyone else has done since complete mage came out. Things like a wizard with a longspear, or two because he grows an extra set of arms fighting with somatic weaponry, while wearing glowey force armor and then changing into a war troll while is doing the same thing.

[Andezzar]

Somatic Weaponry might not be enough to cast while using a two-handed weapon. You still need to be able to manipulate material components. So better take Eschew Materials.

[tricktroller]

so eschew materials and somatic weaponry are two feats I can take to never need to put my swords down to cast unless it is an expensive material component?
I am down with that.

Would an elf, focused transmuter, martial wizard, who wields a long spear or two be feasible? Are there other ACF's I should think about taking? Besides Eschew Materials and somatic weaponry what feats should I take?

Flaw1 Eschew Materials
1st
w1
3rd Somatic Weaponry
w5
6th
9th
W10

I think my biggest want here is a rule of cool character. What he does, doesn't have to be the most powerful, but it does have to be cool.

[Troacctid]

Collegiate Wizard, since you're going Wizard 20. Might as well.

[tricktroller]

Good choice!


Flaw1 Eschew Materials
1st Collegiate Wizard
w1 Fighter bonus
3rd Somatic Weaponry
w5 Fighter Bonus
6th
9th
W10 Fighter Bonus

Oh and I intend to wear leather armor even with the 10% ASF on it from a role playing perspective.

[Extra Anchovies]

Somatic Weaponry might not be enough to cast while using a two-handed weapon. You still need to be able to manipulate material components. So better take Eschew Materials.

Taking a hand off a 2-handed weapon is a free action, and you don't need two hands to use somatic components. Eschew Materials is still nice, though, both for the normal practical reasons and for Ice Assassin and/or Teleport Through Time shenanigans :smallbiggrin:

[tricktroller]

is somatic weaponry only really needed for two weapon fighting or sword and board fighting?

[Andezzar]

Why focused Transmuter? If you are an elf anyway, take the substitution level from RotW for even more new spells and no prohibited schools.

Don't use armor with ASF. It is too frustrating when the one spell you need to get off fails. There are better armors without ASF.


Taking a hand off a 2-handed weapon is a free action, and you don't need two hands to use somatic components. Eschew Materials is still nice, though, both for the normal practical reasons and for Ice Assassin and/or Teleport Through Time shenanigans :smallbiggrin:While taking a hand off a two-handed weapon (i.e. dropping the item hand from the weapon) as a free action can be called RAW, putting it back on is not a free action by RAW. The rules give no indication that this requires less effort than drawing a weapon (without Quickdraw a free action combined with a regular move).


is somatic weaponry only really needed for two weapon fighting or sword and board fighting?Unless you only want to cast spells without somatic components, yes.

[tricktroller]

What about an elven generalist/transmutation or storm domain wizard?

[Troacctid]

Oh, you probably want Minor Shapeshift too. Temporary HP equal to your level each round as a swift action should go a long way toward mitigating your squishy d4 hit die, and you also have the option to use it for an extra attack if the situation calls for it.

[tricktroller]

Flaw1 Eschew Materials
1st Collegiate Wizard
w1 Combat Reflexes
3rd Somatic Weaponry
w5 Close Quarters combat
6th Power Attack
9th Reflex Set
W10 Impale

So I know a lot of the feats don't make any sense because they don't exist, but they do in the dragon compendium and in AEG material. Close quarters combat allows me to attack an adjacent foe with a reach weapon with a -1 penalty. Reflex set allows me to hit an opponent with an AoO as if I had readied an action to receive a charge as long as I am not flat footed. Pike hedge makes my spear do triple damage when receiving a charge, and impale makes me do double damage on a charge with a weapon that can be set to receive a charge.

Now all of these feats are fighter bonus feats that I could put as heroics and some I will until I get the feats, but I think having them even when I don't have magic would be extremely helpful. If you can think of better feats let me now, but I think for now I will be making this a longspear fighting wizard :D

[Urpriest]

Good choice!


Flaw1 Eschew Materials
1st Collegiate Wizard
w1 Fighter bonus
3rd Somatic Weaponry
w5 Fighter Bonus
6th
9th
W10 Fighter Bonus

Oh and I intend to wear leather armor even with the 10% ASF on it from a role playing perspective.

You do realize you can include add-ons to that leather armor to reduce the ASF while keeping exactly the same roleplay, right? Also that wearing leather directly contradicts your stated (and only) roleplay goal of being a "guy in robes"?

Anyway, you'll need to spare some feats to get Persist up and running. Have you chosen a trick for that yet?

[tricktroller]

Eh I think I am going to skip Persist and just go with being conservative in my casting. I know I said I wanted to be in robes but I might try being in armor instead.

[Extra Anchovies]

You do realize you can include add-ons to that leather armor to reduce the ASF while keeping exactly the same roleplay, right? Also that wearing leather directly contradicts your stated (and only) roleplay goal of being a "guy in robes"?

Chain shirts can fit under robes, and a mithral gith- or feycraft chain shirt with a thistledown suit has 0% ASF - without any enchantments.

[Andezzar]

Chain shirts can fit under robes, and a mithral gith- or feycraft chain shirt with a thistledown suit has 0% ASF - without any enchantments.While they can fit under robes physically, they occupy the same slot for magic items. So you will only get the magical benefits of one.


One robe or suit of armor on the body (over a vest, vestment, or shirt)

[Urpriest]

While they can fit under robes physically, they occupy the same slot for magic items. So you will only get the magical benefits of one.

One robe or suit of armor on the body (over a vest, vestment, or shirt)

There aren't a lot of good magic robes though.

[Troacctid]

Flaw1 Eschew Materials
1st Collegiate Wizard
w1 Combat Reflexes
3rd Somatic Weaponry
w5 Close Quarters combat
6th Power Attack
9th Reflex Set
W10 Impale

So I know a lot of the feats don't make any sense because they don't exist, but they do in the dragon compendium and in AEG material. Close quarters combat allows me to attack an adjacent foe with a reach weapon with a -1 penalty. Reflex set allows me to hit an opponent with an AoO as if I had readied an action to receive a charge as long as I am not flat footed. Pike hedge makes my spear do triple damage when receiving a charge, and impale makes me do double damage on a charge with a weapon that can be set to receive a charge.

Now all of these feats are fighter bonus feats that I could put as heroics and some I will until I get the feats, but I think having them even when I don't have magic would be extremely helpful. If you can think of better feats let me now, but I think for now I will be making this a longspear fighting wizard :D

AEG = Arms & Equipment Guide? That book doesn't have feats in it. Also, the feat is Shorten Grip and it gives a -2 penalty, not -1, and honestly it's a lot worse than just using Minor Shapeshift to get a claw attack with no penalty. Minor Shapeshift is such a great feat.


While they can fit under robes physically, they occupy the same slot for magic items. So you will only get the magical benefits of one.

Armor bonuses don't stack with mage armor anyway.

[Urpriest]

AEG = Arms & Equipment Guide? That book doesn't have feats in it.

Alderac Entertainment Group, I'm guessing. Makers of dubious books of feats.

[tricktroller]

AEG as in Alderac Entertainment Group. Its a -1 and allows you to do so at any time, making almost any reach weapon into a spiked chain effectively.

I probably won't ever get a mithral feycraft thistledown padded chains hirt, but I might be able to get a twilight leather armor.

They are dubious, but I find that as probably one of the least dubious feats I could take from the ultimate feats book.

[Extra Anchovies]

AEG as in Alderac Entertainment Group. Its a -1 and allows you to do so at any time, making almost any reach weapon into a spiked chain effectively.

I probably won't ever get a mithral feycraft thistledown padded chains hirt, but I might be able to get a twilight leather armor.

They are dubious, but I find that as probably one of the least dubious feats I could take from the ultimate feats book.

Mithral feycraft thistledown-padded chain shirt is actually significantly cheaper than +1 Twilight Leather armor (1500ish GP vs 2200ish GP), and lets you fit on more armor abilities (for example, Proof Against Transmutation and Soulfire, for a nice pile of immunities).

[tricktroller]

Oh I understand the usefulness, I mean I don't think the DM will be putting that in the game.

[Ellowryn]

Could have sworn there was a wizard/sorcerer spell somewhere that gave you a bunch of fighter feats for the duration of the spell, but all i can find is heroics. If anybody else knows that would be a big help to you cause then you can just cast that and get the exact feats you need only when you need them.

[Urpriest]

Could have sworn there was a wizard/sorcerer spell somewhere that gave you a bunch of fighter feats for the duration of the spell, but all i can find is heroics. If anybody else knows that would be a big help to you cause then you can just cast that and get the exact feats you need only when you need them.

That's the spell, Heroics.

[JW86]

That's the spell, Heroics.

There's also Bite of the - spells...

Might be useful for a gish.

http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/bite-werebear--3950/