Optimizing under a DM adversarial to metagaming?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

How far can one optimize under a DM that has put up the following in effect to oppose metagaming and munchkinism?



1) Treasure is random - including what items vendors have to sell. If you want specific items, craft them or get someone to craft them for you. Having the exact items you want takes time as dictated by item crafting rules.

2) Magic items are sold by the guys who craft or find them - i.e. adventurers and spellcasters, who are not dumb. These guys are unlikely to accept payment in a form they could more cheaply acquire themselves. I.e. paying them off with iron from a wall of iron or even gold from selling off such iron is not going to fly - black onyx, diamond, magic items and the like is needed. I.e. the infinite treasure tricks are only gonna work with people who don't have access to them - but they won't be selling anything useful.

3) What creatures beyond the core races exist in the world and their stats is up to the DM. PCs only know what their Knowledge checks reveal and are advised to make them instead of relying on metagaming. So make those checks before you call any Efreet. You might find their wish-granting always gives more harm than benefit, or that they are CR 15+ enemies not subject to dimensional anchor for some reason. I.e. any exploit relying on using other creatures (including abuse of polymorphing) is not going to work.

4) What planes and planar traits exist beyond the Prime is up to the DM. PCs don't know unless they make their knowledge checks and are advised to make them instead of relying on metagaming. The "Fast Time" trait might go hand in hand with the "overlapping with the Far Realm" trait, for example.





In short, most of the things in the DMG and similar stuff in other books are known to the DM, not the players.

[eggynack]

As is often the case with situations like this, my suspicion is that the answer is druid. You have free access to your entire list, little to no actual magic item requirements, and versatility on both a daily and moment to moment basis. You might be somewhat limited by the form use stuff, but a lot of the basic elements are rather practical, and you can always just boost the relevant knowledge skills.

[Blackhawk748]

To be honest this list doesnt seem to bad. I mean purely random seems a bit odd, but it could make things interesting. Ill say this, these rules actually seem like they will do what the DM intends and are not insanely heavy handed or just plain weird, they actually seem like they would increase verisimilitude. Also i like the use of Knowledge skills.

[Curmudgeon]

To my way of thinking, most of the treasure gained in an encounter should be the gear the enemies found useful as personal equipment. That's not particularly random, but it makes way more sense than for a bunch of Kobolds to randomly have a size Large +1 longspear lying around.

I don't think this is particularly mean-spirited. After all, if there are crafters who can make items on commission, the standard income stream from selling random treasure at ½ list price will let you commission and pay for the gear you need. If you get a couple levels ahead of the gear you need, you can have some quiet down time while your equipment is being built.

[molten_dragon]

How far can one optimize under a DM that has put up the following in effect to oppose metagaming and munchkinism?



1) Treasure is random - including what items vendors have to sell. If you want specific items, craft them or get someone to craft them for you. Having the exact items you want takes time as dictated by item crafting rules.

2) Magic items are sold by the guys who craft or find them - i.e. adventurers and spellcasters, who are not dumb. These guys are unlikely to accept payment in a form they could more cheaply acquire themselves. I.e. paying them off with iron from a wall of iron or even gold from selling off such iron is not going to fly - black onyx, diamond, magic items and the like is needed. I.e. the infinite treasure tricks are only gonna work with people who don't have access to them - but they won't be selling anything useful.

3) What creatures beyond the core races exist in the world and their stats is up to the DM. PCs only know what their Knowledge checks reveal and are advised to make them instead of relying on metagaming. So make those checks before you call any Efreet. You might find their wish-granting always gives more harm than benefit, or that they are CR 15+ enemies not subject to dimensional anchor for some reason. I.e. any exploit relying on using other creatures (including abuse of polymorphing) is not going to work.

4) What planes and planar traits exist beyond the Prime is up to the DM. PCs don't know unless they make their knowledge checks and are advised to make them instead of relying on metagaming. The "Fast Time" trait might go hand in hand with the "overlapping with the Far Realm" trait, for example.





In short, most of the things in the DMG and similar stuff in other books are known to the DM, not the players.

Eggynack's suggestion of druid is a good one.

My other suggestion is Artificer. If magic shops don't exist and it's difficult to get hold of specific items, being able to make items for yourself and the party (as well as to sell to other adventurers) is pretty optimized.

[WhamBamSam]

Eggynack's suggestion of druid is a good one.

My other suggestion is Artificer. If magic shops don't exist and it's difficult to get hold of specific items, being able to make items for yourself and the party (as well as to sell to other adventurers) is pretty optimized.Any T1 would be fine. Put a little emphasis on crafting or just go without an ideal item loadout because you can do that.

Restricting item access only really impedes the less powerful classes which are more gear dependent.

[Troacctid]

Knowledge skills and item crafting feats go up in value a ton. Use Magic Device goes up in value a little too, since you may randomly get a scroll or wand that isn't on anyone's class spell list. Builds and feats that rely on a specific type of weapon go down in value, since the weapons you get will be randomized. Spinemeld Warrior jumps from near-unplayable to a pretty good 2-level dip.

Mostly, though, not much should be different.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's nothing wrong with any of those, and none of them really prevent practical optimization from happening.

1. This is normal, though keep in mind Table 5-2 on DMG page 137 indicates that a community of a certain size will have every item in existence within a certain value available for sale. It may take a gather information check to locate who's selling it, though. Waiting one day per 1,000 gp of an item's value is also normal, as the item's creator is literally doubling his money for making it.

2. Unlimited wealth tricks are theoretical optimization, not things you should be using in an actual game. This shouldn't need to be a rule in the first place. With that said, you can always just take Ancestral Relic, make it a staff, sacrifice the full value of such items into your relic to upgrade it to something like a Staff of Wish, and get as many wishes as you want, which can then create other magic items. I still would never recommend such tricks in an actual game, unless you have some kind of munchkin DM who would use those tricks as a PC without a second thought.

3. Again, nothing wrong with this. The standard trick anyway is to Candle of Invocation an Efreet, tell it that if its first two wishes are granted favorably you'll use the third wish to its benefit, and get another candle and a favorable wish of your choice. Even the theoretical tricks take role playing into consideration, but you still shouldn't do it in an actual game. Regarding Polymorph, you could use knowledge checks to show that your character is aware of the creature whose form you wish to take, or just have your character take the time to visit a library and research such monsters. Actual optimization is never dependent on metagaming.

4. This only ever comes into play in the highest levels when characters have access to Genesis and other 9th level spells, or when creating Pun-Pun which again is theoretical optimization. If you're not playing in the near-epic and epic levels, this will only prevent NPCs from using these tricks, which is a good thing. If you are playing at that level, then this is only a single page removed from the vast grimoire of optimization tricks.

Basically, just don't use game-breaking shenanigans during an actual game. If your group is unable to differentiate between what's theoretical optimization and what's practical optimization, then rules like these become necessary to keep the game fun for everyone, and it looks like that's what your DM is trying to do.

[Coidzor]

How far can one optimize under a DM that has put up the following in effect to oppose metagaming and munchkinism?

Depends, do we have physical access? :smalltongue:

Also, how susceptible are they to social engineerIng?


1) Treasure is random - including what items vendors have to sell. If you want specific items, craft them or get someone to craft them for you. Having the exact items you want takes time as dictated by item crafting rules.

2) Magic items are sold by the guys who craft or find them - i.e. adventurers and spellcasters, who are not dumb. These guys are unlikely to accept payment in a form they could more cheaply acquire themselves. I.e. paying them off with iron from a wall of iron or even gold from selling off such iron is not going to fly - black onyx, diamond, magic items and the like is needed. I.e. the infinite treasure tricks are only gonna work with people who don't have access to them - but they won't be selling anything useful.

Ahh, not quite. What this says to me is that there is a very active NPC adventurer presence. What would low-level NPC Adventurers most desperately desire? Something to increase their odds of surviving to become not-low-level NPC adventurers.

The thing to do here is to be an Artificer and use those money-gaining tricks to gain capital enough to set up shop as a patron of low-level and eventually lower-level Adventurers. In exchange for fully kitting them up with the best equipment a 1st level adventurer could hope to have without being blinged out in loaned magic gear, they give a percentage of found magical items and so on. You can trade larger numbers of useful low-level magic items for useful higher-level magic items or convert their stored XP into better stuff or re-invest them into the company and corner the Adventuring market with your franchises of Adventurers Guilds and the like.

Also, if gold is useless for acquiring the materials for magic item crafting, how are they proposing to actually deal with that mess they've gotten themselves into. :smallconfused:


3) What creatures beyond the core races exist in the world and their stats is up to the DM. PCs only know what their Knowledge checks reveal and are advised to make them instead of relying on metagaming. So make those checks before you call any Efreet. You might find their wish-granting always gives more harm than benefit, or that they are CR 15+ enemies not subject to dimensional anchor for some reason. I.e. any exploit relying on using other creatures (including abuse of polymorphing) is not going to work.

So... I can't play anything other than a PHB bog-standard Human or Dwarf or *maybe* Gnome and the DM's running around with Schrodinger's Orcs with variable racial traits as the mood strikes him until I hit them with a Knowledge check? Lame. Also, if anything, that level of chicanery would seem to leave the game itself vulnerable to implosion.

I sincerely hope that they're actually just *set* and then the players gain access to them via Knowledge checks.


4) What planes and planar traits exist beyond the Prime is up to the DM. PCs don't know unless they make their knowledge checks and are advised to make them instead of relying on metagaming. The "Fast Time" trait might go hand in hand with the "overlapping with the Far Realm" trait, for example.

That example not only doesn't make sense but would instantly cause me to lose respect for anyone who would do that instead of just having the gumption to ban the fast time trait. :smallyuk:


In short, most of the things in the DMG and similar stuff in other books are known to the DM, not the players.

Well, that would make item crafting impossible, I suppose, if we're not allowed to know (and can't find out) what items are possible to craft, how crafting works, or the rules by which we can interact with NPCs other than diplomacy, bluff, and intimidate.

[eggynack]

Also, if gold is useless for acquiring the materials for magic item crafting, how are they proposing to actually deal with that mess they've gotten themselves into. :smallconfused:

Yeah, that's a pretty ridiculous thing. GP is frigging currency, after all. You accept it in exchange for magic items because later, when you want to buy stuff, they'll accept your money. If you want to ban infinite treasure tricks, just do that directly. You could even go with the crazy Tippy method, where acquiring a certain amount over wealth by level causes you to explode. You could also go with the other method, where you just tell people not to do this thing, enforceable by booting, either rhetorical or literal. That seems like the solution to a lot of the problems these rules are trying to solve, actually.

[ramrod]

How far can one optimize under a DM that has put up the following in effect to oppose metagaming and munchkinism?



1) Treasure is random - including what items vendors have to sell. If you want specific items, craft them or get someone to craft them for you. Having the exact items you want takes time as dictated by item crafting rules.

2) Magic items are sold by the guys who craft or find them - i.e. adventurers and spellcasters, who are not dumb. These guys are unlikely to accept payment in a form they could more cheaply acquire themselves. I.e. paying them off with iron from a wall of iron or even gold from selling off such iron is not going to fly - black onyx, diamond, magic items and the like is needed. I.e. the infinite treasure tricks are only gonna work with people who don't have access to them - but they won't be selling anything useful.

3) What creatures beyond the core races exist in the world and their stats is up to the DM. PCs only know what their Knowledge checks reveal and are advised to make them instead of relying on metagaming. So make those checks before you call any Efreet. You might find their wish-granting always gives more harm than benefit, or that they are CR 15+ enemies not subject to dimensional anchor for some reason. I.e. any exploit relying on using other creatures (including abuse of polymorphing) is not going to work.

4) What planes and planar traits exist beyond the Prime is up to the DM. PCs don't know unless they make their knowledge checks and are advised to make them instead of relying on metagaming. The "Fast Time" trait might go hand in hand with the "overlapping with the Far Realm" trait, for example.





In short, most of the things in the DMG and similar stuff in other books are known to the DM, not the players.


I don't really see how much of the above is different to a standard game of D and D. Items do not magically appear. Occasionally a DM might allow items to be made a little quicker to speed characters up though in getting out of town (no one wants to RP a months worth of hanging around waiting for a new breastplate to be completed).

Paying for items in relevant items should be a simple matter of buying the items required from elsewhere in the town/city. The reason that we never track material components is because it is safely assumed that within a city anything relevant would be for sale. If your DM is saying otherwise he is being an asshat. By the time items become increasingly important and desirable someone in the party should have the ability to travel between cities and places pretty easily anyway to collect said materials at bare minimum prices. If it is magic items that they are after, there are plenty of cities that are well known for selling magic items (provided you are playing in a standard setting). Neither 1 nor 2 should prevent you from getting the items that you desire, if your DM pulls cost strings then get the party to down tools and ask around for quests that would pay well... (the DM may not want to plan for this and will perhaps be more lenient in time).

Number 3 should always be in effect. A good DM should not allow metagame knowledge to affect outcomes. If I know that a player in my group is using meta knowledge such as avoiding using their usual fire damage or blindfolding themselves, I ask them to make the necessary knowledge checks. We're all big boys and girls and most of us have experienced the core creatures before or would be able to hazard a guess at most other things. Your character probably has not (although I would allow for massive bonuses on common sense checks, I would allow this as a wisdom check or something else relevant if the player can justify). Again, this should make no difference to your play. If your party fails their knowledge checks to not accept the staring competition bet with a medusa you have to chalk it up to bad luck and get better knowledge skills in party!! Skills should be valued I would +1 DM point your DM for keeping to it.

Equally for number 3, I do a similar thing. I do not allow player knowledge to dominate and I bend the rules to my whim. I don't like rules debates on monsters to suspend disbelief. Why should the party need to know what rule I am using that allows a particular special ability or feat to be applied to a certain creature? My party have accepted this. I am not a power lord of a DM that likes to crush my party, but I do like to keep it fresh and fun. Again, I would just suck it up and accept that you will not know what the creatures are capable of. Part of the fun of D and D is having metagame knowledge and working out exactly what is going on but as long as their is continuity in it, it is also fun experiencing new monsters and being caught out/finding ways around new challenge. When a troll comes along it gets boring knowing that you just need to crack a torch out and it's win win.

Number 4 is a little more tricky and depends on the caliber of the DM. If he is going to stick to and memorise all information pertaining to the planes as you discover them/research them then this is great. Why should the planes be a specific way in his version of the multiverse? As a character starting at level 1 there is a good chance that you would know little to nothing beyond what you have learned in books or needed to research about. As you progress in level you may or may not need to visit these places or research them. As long as these facts remain static, I would be excited about exploring them! Knowing what is out there already I have no care nor want to visit them, but experiencing new planes for the first time might be fun.


None of these issues should affect your ability to optimise. It sounds like you could be in for a lot of fun if you play along with it. Maybe don't use a character class or build that hinges around ultra specific items that might be more difficult to get hold of, but this should be true for any build unless you have established that it is an item that you have has from the start (say if you start at level 10).


Have fun!

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah, that's a pretty ridiculous thing. GP is frigging currency, after all. You accept it in exchange for magic items because later, when you want to buy stuff, they'll accept your money. If you want to ban infinite treasure tricks, just do that directly. You could even go with the crazy Tippy method, where acquiring a certain amount over wealth by level causes you to explode. You could also go with the other method, where you just tell people not to do this thing, enforceable by booting, either rhetorical or literal. That seems like the solution to a lot of the problems these rules are trying to solve, actually.

Huh kinda missed that.... Though it does kinda make sense actually, as 50gp equals a pound, 2000 gp (your standard +1 sword) is gonna be 40 lbs of gold. As a guy running a store i wouldnt like people paying me with a 40lb bag of money, i would much prefer someone hand me a Diamond worth 2000gp (as gems are also currency) as i could stash that much easier.

Though i agree that you should just ban the infinite money tricks instead of this workaround, as how are you gonna know that that gp is from cheesy tricks.

Though i am totally gonna make a mage who only accepts payment in magic items or gems now.

[eggynack]

Huh kinda missed that.... Though it does kinda make sense actually, as 50gp equals a pound, 2000 gp (your standard +1 sword) is gonna be 40 lbs of gold. As a guy running a store i wouldnt like people paying me with a 40lb bag of money, i would much prefer someone hand me a Diamond worth 2000gp (as gems are also currency) as i could stash that much easier.
As long as the different currencies are reasonably easy to exchange, that doesn't seem like too problematic of a thing. The problem is in the underlying idea that GP, ostensibly the money of the land, is essentially valueless. That would make for a somewhat interesting setting though: one where hyperinflation caused by money making tricks has consumed the world. It definitely wouldn't just be a casual aside in a larger rule set though

[emeraldstreak]

I'd say your DM's simulationist approach calls for more PvP-oriented party than usual, because you'll be at odds with NPCs with PC class levels for crucial resources.

Basically, you either have to create your own powerbase, defend it (yep, this DM will attack you), and craft your own items; or you have to be able to rob powerful NPCs for theirs.

[jedipotter]

1. This is normal enough. Treasure and all goods is always moving around. A shop won't have a sling+1 on sale forever.

2. Barter is normal. This might slow down optimization as you can't just buy stuff at Magic Mart, but not too much. You should get more then enough items to trade on a normal adventure anyway.

3. This is almost game default. A character only knows what they can roll on a knowledge check. And a character only knows the local monsters and the common famous ones with an easy roll. Anything else and the roll to know gets higher. So: goblin easy roll, zoar is like DC 50. And, as said in the rules, the MM monsters are just the ''most basic, generic'' creatures. The DM is free to change them up. Not every orc must have the same feats and some monsters can have templates and so forth too.

4. Again, this is default. And lots of people are not exactly plane experts. After all if you describe ''an icy cold wasteland'' not too many people will think that is Hell/Baator...but guess what...that does describe a layer.

[Urpriest]

There are some silly elements, but nothing that makes it impossible to optimize. Build a crafter, or something that's gear-independent, have good Knowledge checks (so Wizard, not Sorceror).

Now granted, if the DM is bad at homebrewing monsters things could get very hairy very fast, since 3. is essentially "warning: I will homebrew monsters".

Basically, as others have said, PO will work fine.

Now if you're asking whether TO or Tippy-level optimization is still possible, things get a bit more interesting...

[torrasque666]

-snip-

For once, I agree with jedipotter. This frightens me.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

For once, I agree with jedipotter. This frightens me.

Yep, I agree as well. I particularly like 'restriction' #2; makes a modicum more sense than what I call a 'wage mage'. I could incorporate such an idea into my games; instead of some magic item emporium (which can be fun/evil by itself, if used correctly; see Silus's Cursed Sword horror story) each seller has his own party to back him up.

[Qwertystop]

Yeah, these make decent sense, with the exception that money isn't actually worth anything anymore, in which case why does it still exist?

[jiriku]

How far can one optimize under a DM that has put up the following in effect to oppose metagaming and munchkinism?

I would say that the full extent of practical optimization is readily available under these circumstances. If you are even interested in these rules, you are probably planning a full caster. Invest in Knowledge skills and take crafting feats. Ask if feat retraining is available -- certain feats like Craft Rod, Craft Staff, or Craft Construct might only be used once or twice in a campaign and are only worth it if you can retrain them later.

[Coidzor]

Now if you're asking whether TO or Tippy-level optimization is still possible, things get a bit more interesting...

I basically read most of the OP as a challenge to have the party become Magic Mart or at least lead to its creation by organizing the necessary networks with NPC allies. That, or just set up their own Tippy-fiefdoms or even go full-on Tippyverse.

So, please, do go on. :smallamused:

[LTwerewolf]

Factotum would also work well under these circumstances. Make sure to have a good UMD check. With relatively balanced stats, you can use pretty much any equipment that comes along. You can also throw some levels into chameleon for further everythingitude. Let the loot you get decide what role you are.

[Studoku]

Going through the rules one by one...

1. Be a wizard. If you need an effect and can't find the item, take the spell for it. There are ways to increase your 2 spells/level if you need them.

2. Be a wizard. Offer your spells as a trade or partial-payment.Adventurers who can't cast could always use divinations and teleports. Even identify spells are a useful service.

If you're feeling cheeky, point out that they should see their crap items as worth a lot less than the book prices, since apparently nobody wants to buy them.

3. Be a wizard. All knowledge skills as class skills and an int bonus of +loads. Also divination spells when you have time to prepare.

4. Don't go to other planes. They are silly places.

Or see 3, be a wizard and do your homework before going plane shifting.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@currency:
The DM said that coins and goods were still currency for normal trade - it's just that anyone selling magic commodities and services demanded to be paid in things of magical value. That since the DMG didn't specify whether an item's price could be met with copper, silver, gold, platinum, gems, or goods and services, vendors could ask for their prefered method - and obviously not go for something that would be worthless to them.


@custom items:
There were some weird stuff brought up. First, that we had to actually prepare and expend the spells required every day we created magic items, unless otherwise specified - and that this wasn't a house rule.
Secondly, that magic traps had no reset element.
Third, that Wish could create magic items but didn't say it ignored magic item creation rules.
Fourth, that having a called/gated creature make or give us magic items, treasure, magic, or anything that would last longer than the duration of Gate directly or indirectly counted as prolonged service, not brief command.

[Erik Vale]

@currency:
The DM said that coins and goods were still currency for normal trade - it's just that anyone selling magic commodities and services demanded to be paid in things of magical value. That since the DMG didn't specify whether an item's price could be met with copper, silver, gold, platinum, gems, or goods and services, vendors could ask for their prefered method - and obviously not go for something that would be worthless to them.


@custom items:
There were some weird stuff brought up. First, that we had to actually prepare and expend the spells required every day we created magic items, unless otherwise specified - and that this wasn't a house rule.
Secondly, that magic traps had no reset element.
Third, that Wish could create magic items but didn't say it ignored magic item creation rules.
Fourth, that having a called/gated creature make or give us magic items, treasure, magic, or anything that would last longer than the duration of Gate directly or indirectly counted as prolonged service, not brief command.

1: Kinda makes sense, but you can always just take the extra step to buy magic stuff unless the DM is being obtuse. And couldn't you Wish up some Onyx [A gem is just a type of stone]/other, since you have wish.
2: Unusual, nothing even says you need to expend spells, just know them... But why are you adventuring while crafting?
3:... What? That makes no sense, both in it doing so and how it does so. Do you wish and get it X days from now, is something created which follows you around crafting or what?
4:... The first part is houserule. The second part I wish I thought of first because that's entirely reasonable and you could even call RAW, giving that it's Loaning you it's gear.

[Urpriest]

@currency:
The DM said that coins and goods were still currency for normal trade - it's just that anyone selling magic commodities and services demanded to be paid in things of magical value. That since the DMG didn't specify whether an item's price could be met with copper, silver, gold, platinum, gems, or goods and services, vendors could ask for their prefered method - and obviously not go for something that would be worthless to them.

I'd definitely want to clarify which category crafting materials fall under. If you can buy crafting materials from non-crafters then that's fine, but if you can only buy them from casters then you need magic items to craft magic items and things get a little (more) silly. I'd also inquire whether crafting materials fall under the "random shop inventory" clause, and if so whether they're divided into types. Walking into a shop and finding that they only have materials for an Apparatus of Kwalish would put a damper on things.



@custom items:
There were some weird stuff brought up. First, that we had to actually prepare and expend the spells required every day we created magic items, unless otherwise specified - and that this wasn't a house rule.

It isn't. (The rule is located in each one of the "Crafting X" sections on this page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm).) You don't have to prepare them if you're a spontaneous caster, of course.




Secondly, that magic traps had no reset element.


So he's stopping the Tippyverse by neutering his own ability to design traps that can't be circumvented via clever use of summoning?

This guy seems to be pretty heavily motivated by paranoia, which is a bit of a warning sign in its own right.




Third, that Wish could create magic items but didn't say it ignored magic item creation rules.

If there's a time delay that's kind of silly. If he just means that you need to spend the requisite XP, that's in the spell. If he means you have to spend GP as well, that's a little silly because the spell explicitly increases the XP cost to cover that, but whatever. Wish-crafting in general is more of a Tippy-op/TO thing, so this is another example of a rule that probably could be circumvented with a good gentlemen's agreement.




Fourth, that having a called/gated creature make or give us magic items, treasure, magic, or anything that would last longer than the duration of Gate directly or indirectly counted as prolonged service, not brief command.

Interesting. Of course, the Planar Binding line doesn't really care about prolonged services, they just mean you won't get an extra bonus to your Cha check. Unless he means that the 1 day/level limit for open-ended services applies to magic items, which is a little odd and would be tough to implement.

I'd point out the above, not in a "I intend to optimize the **** out of this" way, but in a "I understand what you're going for, but you missed a spot, here's another houserule to cover it" way. Basically, this DM seems to be excessively worried about someone going Tippy on his ass, and has put in lots of "I can screw you arbitrarily" rules to cover for it. If the DM thinks you're on their side in the fight against Tippy-optimization they are unlikely to use their arbitrary screw you powers on you.




2: Unusual, nothing even says you need to expend spells, just know them... But why are you adventuring while crafting?

You definitely need to expend spells, that's explicit in the above link. You don't need to cast said spells, which arguably obviates things like DMM from being used in item creation.

[eggynack]

@currency:
The DM said that coins and goods were still currency for normal trade - it's just that anyone selling magic commodities and services demanded to be paid in things of magical value. That since the DMG didn't specify whether an item's price could be met with copper, silver, gold, platinum, gems, or goods and services, vendors could ask for their prefered method - and obviously not go for something that would be worthless to them.

The thing of it is, currency is either worthless or it's not. Either there's so much wall of salt gold flooding the market that no one will take it, or there's not too much gold, which means that it's not worthless. The way he has it now, where it's sometimes valuable and sometimes valueless, doesn't make much sense.

Consider, whether the vendors do or do not accept gold, they still need to use gold to buy supplies for their items. Magic items are very expensive to produce, so even a small percentage of the population producing them in great number (which they would, because it's free on the gold side) would flood the market with this new wealth.

And seriously, this is all quite unnecessary. Infinite wealth tricks are really easy to spot, because the person doing them will start acquiring infinite wealth. Tell the DM to say, "Nah, don't do that. It's stupid." That's the end of it. Your DM is fundamentally altering the game's entire economy in order to solve this problem that would be pretty easy to solve otherwise.

[Odessa333]

I'm curious to the 'infinite wealth tricks' that are normally allowed in your games. I mean, if those are common enough a rule is needed, why not add another step?

Make iron, sell for gold, use gold to buy diamonds or whatever currency the magic item people want.

Granted, I've never used such a thing before, but that should be an 'efficient' work around if those rules are often in play in your area. Or if you're such a high level that gold is nothing, you could always bind souls and sell them on other planes, I hear you can make a tidy profit doing that...


Or if you want to avoid it and actual craft, get rings of sustenance for you and a minion/cohort/player/ally and get the team craft working feat. Ring says you only need two hours of sleep, so while the rest of the party is resting, you and the ally can get your day's worth of crafting in. Team crafting feat (forget name) basically lets you do double your efforts. If allowed, mythic crafting lets you do 8 hours of work at the start of a day.

[Coidzor]

@currency:
The DM said that coins and goods were still currency for normal trade - it's just that anyone selling magic commodities and services demanded to be paid in things of magical value. That since the DMG didn't specify whether an item's price could be met with copper, silver, gold, platinum, gems, or goods and services, vendors could ask for their prefered method - and obviously not go for something that would be worthless to them.

So you can buy everything except for, what, spellcasting services and magic items with gold? What about magical locations like the Otyugh Hole? Warbeasts? Hirelings(if those even still exist)?

Except if you *can* buy magic item crafting materials with gp, then gp is not valueless to crafters unless there's some spell he's keeping under his hat that lets crafters just magic up the necessary materials... In which case, of course, nab that spell, have gp-irrelevant crafting and optimize to reduce the crafting XP and Time required, construct an army of intelligent, loyal golems to corner the world's security market, choking off the flow of XP to low-level adventurers that don't swear loyalty to your organization. After a generation or two you now control the world, basically.


@custom items:
There were some weird stuff brought up. First, that we had to actually prepare and expend the spells required every day we created magic items, unless otherwise specified - and that this wasn't a house rule.
Secondly, that magic traps had no reset element.
Third, that Wish could create magic items but didn't say it ignored magic item creation rules.
Fourth, that having a called/gated creature make or give us magic items, treasure, magic, or anything that would last longer than the duration of Gate directly or indirectly counted as prolonged service, not brief command.

1. Eh. *shrug* How often is that really going to come up? Or was this delivered as part of an explanation that "I'm going to try to murder your character(s) when(ever) you stop to craft?"

2. Well, that's a boon to you when adventuring, then. Though it does encourage having a ridiculous layering of magical traps that are set to be dormant until after the first one went off. Which, if they can be bypassed would net an arbitrary amount of wealth/crafting XP depending upon how many traps the DM had stacked up there. Also, while it makes the LE Mendicant Scheme for renewable crafting XP more complicated and requiring more trust in one's network, I believe it may still be accomplished using schemas. Will have to double check. Also, Spellclocks. Or was it Spell Clocks?

3. That is weird, especially because it doesn't make any sense. Why didn't you ask for them to clarify as to what that actually means to them? :smallconfused:

4. So... You can gate in a Solar, but it'd rather die fighting like a big stupid fighter than cast any of its spells even under its own recognizance? :smallconfused:


So he's stopping the Tippyverse by neutering his own ability to design traps that can't be circumvented via clever use of summoning?

This guy seems to be pretty heavily motivated by paranoia, which is a bit of a warning sign in its own right.

Yeah, either he wants you to go Tippy and have to really work for it by erecting these barriers or he's paranoid and doesn't know to just talk to his players like they're people... :smalleek:

[frost890]

Let me start off by saying that when a GM/DM says something like that USE IT FOR ALL IT IS WORTH!!! you seem to be looking at it as a bad point.

1) Treasure is random
-So? Some of the best turning piont for any of my charactors has been finding some random item and figuring out how to use it. I had a paladin that turned in to something of an acrobat. he used a magic grapple hook as an off hand weapon. like scorpion from mortal kombat he would pull creatures to him and stab. or in the case of a red dragon fly above it(hipogriff mount) grab the wing with the hook and drop down. cutting as he went. with the help of the cut(a crit) and the sudden stop at the end of the rope. He broke the wing sending it face first in to a building.

2) Magic items are sold by the guys who craft or find them
- Make friends/get a patron/join an order. Friends and return costumers often a discount. A patron can have you search for clues to his quest in return for that shinny bauble you want. A quest, XP and the wand of "Oh gods that hurt" you want all rolled in to one, by the time you are back they might even have it ready for you. Use orders, schools and guilds in the game. most groups have someone that is tied to a temple, school or guild. Temples usually have there defenders. "Weapons master Jo Bob, before we set out on our journey I am tasked with protecting bishop Turnip of your order. I humbly ask you to teach me the renowned Hammer Thump style." Monks are often renowned for there contemplation and study. raid.. I mean borrow a few books. The thief guild can give you tips and hints of where your arch rivals are. Getting the admiration of the dukes young daughter might give you some cover when the city asks you to pay damages from the fight last night... or you may be able to get a reword from a young guard you saved from some thugs out of the evadince locker.

3) What creatures beyond the core races exist in the world and their stats is up to the DM. PCs only know what their Knowledge checks reveal and are advised to make them instead of relying on metagaming.
- Role playing 101. Stop off at the school of crossed scrolls and do some research or flirt with the librarian a bit and get there expert advice.

4) What planes and planar traits exist beyond the Prime is up to the DM. PCs don't know unless they make their knowledge checks and are advised to make them instead of relying on metagaming. The "Fast Time" trait might go hand in hand with the "overlapping with the Far Realm" trait, for example.
-That is what books are for. I have been given bonuses and even free ranks from role playing that I am reading books. I was even give a free feat at times by finding a teacher and being thrown around for a day as I waited on a party member who was crafting.

It is not as limiting as you might think. Get the cunning part of your brain running and see where it goes.

[ace rooster]

@currency:
The DM said that coins and goods were still currency for normal trade - it's just that anyone selling magic commodities and services demanded to be paid in things of magical value. That since the DMG didn't specify whether an item's price could be met with copper, silver, gold, platinum, gems, or goods and services, vendors could ask for their prefered method - and obviously not go for something that would be worthless to them.


@custom items:
There were some weird stuff brought up. First, that we had to actually prepare and expend the spells required every day we created magic items, unless otherwise specified - and that this wasn't a house rule.
Secondly, that magic traps had no reset element.
Third, that Wish could create magic items but didn't say it ignored magic item creation rules.
Fourth, that having a called/gated creature make or give us magic items, treasure, magic, or anything that would last longer than the duration of Gate directly or indirectly counted as prolonged service, not brief command.




Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp and 1/25 of the base price in XP

Bold for emphisis, gold is not used to buy supplies for crafting, gold is the supplies for crafting. Unlike the real world where currency is given value purely from exchange value, gold in DnD has inherent value. Usually I extend this to copper, platinum and silver, convieniently stabalising the relative value of the metals.

There doesn't look like anything particularly funny in the items things. Enforcing the rules regarding crafting is hardly something to get upset about, and not permiting PCs from access to unlimited castings of spells with no underlying power source is not draconian. Personally I tend to let auto reset traps exist, but require extensive underlying 'magic plumbing' to power them, in the same way that a mundane auto reset flooding room trap would require a source of water. Wish traps could in theory exist but there is nowhere in existence that has an appropriate power supply (which can be trap specific). If you suggest this to the DM then it reopens DM access to such traps (fiat a power supply into existence) but prevents tippyverse type abuse.

The wish thing is a bit wierd. House ruling that spell likes with variable xp component only ignore the base xp component is fine to prevent abuse, but I'm not sure that is what he is intending. Which magic creation rules do you mean? Do you mean that the caster has to have the relevant feats and take the time, or just that wish cannot create items that could not otherwise be crafted? The first seems a bit strange, but not a massive issue. The second is just RAW.

Ruling that gated crafters count as prolonged service is fine. Worth pointing out that it is pretty much risk free though, and discounted appropriately.