E1

[Bluydee]

We've all heard of E6, but what about E1? Instead of being level 6, the max level is level 1. How would this affect the game? Assume people accumulate feats as normal, and the LA system for E6 is in place.

So far:
Full BAB classes and medium/half bab classes are notably different, with full BAB showing a difference between a trained warrior and a dude with a lute.
Spellcasters are much weaker, casting 2 or 3 level 1 spells per day. The feat, precocious apprentice, is more like advanced wizard, able to cast a 2nd level spell.
Death is extremely common. You can die in any encounter.
Toughness is a viable feat.
More realistic than normal.
Truenamers are viable.

[Ruethgar]

Chosen of Mystra and Elven Generalists are the most powerful beings in existence for E1. I feel it hurts mundanes far too much and encourages casters to cheese out everything they can. E3 might be ok so they all have access to the Spirit Lion Barbarian dip or a Martial Monk for advanced feat training.

[eggynack]

Chosen of Mystra and Elven Generalists are the most powerful beings in existence for E1.
I'd add druid to the list. All of the magical power of those other classes, along with reasonable levels of resilience, and an infinitely regenerating fighter friend. It helps, also, that greenbound summoning is a thing at this level.

[heavyfuel]

I was thinking that just the other day. Making a campaign inside a (extremely detailed, fully built) city where everyone is e1. Mostly focused on RP since combat is deadly pretty much no matter who you are.

Full BAB classes are at a great advantage in combat over 3/4 BAB classes because quite a bunch of feats require BAB 1. However, DMM and Arcane Thesis will still dominate the game. Feel Drain needs to be banned or reworked to either allow a save or give negative xp (and feats) instead of actual levels.

Toughness might actually become OP, so I'd use my e6 houserule for feats that can be taken multiple times and stack: You can take these feats a number of times equal to your modifier in the relevant ability as determined by the DM (Con in Toughness' case), minimum once.

Humans are nerfed even more than in e6 because the bonus feat will lose its impact really quickly, especially when compared to racial bonuses and better ability scores. They might actually need a buff to make them competitive.

Capstone will need rework as well. Probably make them a second level ability like uncanny dodge for the Barbarian and Evasion for the Rogue

Edit: Greenbound summons are only a thing by RAW, as the designer already said it was a typo as it's supposed to be a +2 metamagic feat. It's still possible, but needs some reduction. As for the martial monk, he doesn't work by RAW, and the RAI isn't clear enough, so it needs DM adjudication

[malonkey1]

It's an interesting concept, and one I had kicked around. The assumption is that the party is mostly even-power classes in my groups, though, so overshadowing is less of a problem. I intentionally avoid referencing the "tiers" system in E1, as much like Newtonian physics, the Tier system doesn't describe things accurately at such small sizes. One thing I noted is that a lot of formerly moderate-power classes become more effective. Warlocks, for example have an effectively limitless supply of damage, meted out in d6 dice (optimize CL, and you're doing greatsword-level damage at 60 feet away against touch AC), with the option of shakening or sickening (or they could take Baleful Utterance and just shatter everything).

EDIT: I just remembered I had started a thread a while back full of level 1 optimized builds. This thread may interest you to see what a level 1 character can do. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?346495-Mighty-Mice-Level-1-builds-that-OWN)

[Extra Anchovies]

E1 wouldn't be much fun for a lot of players. Gaining feats is nice and all, but there's a certain point after which your character needs to be at least somewhat advanced to take advantage of a lot of feats (high BAB prerequisites, metamagic, etc). There would also be a lot of character death via random chance rather than via player stupidity (and death by random is fun for nobody at the table).

E3 would be much more feasible, IMO:

Full BAB, 3/4 BAB, and 1/2 BAB classes all have different attack bonuses
Constitution matters about as much as hit dice for determining HP
Casters have enough spells to have something to do in most encounters
Characters with ranks in a skill have significantly higher chances of success than those with high ability mods but no ranks
Only +1 metamagic is available (extend/sculpt/widen/etc), and even then only for 1st-level spells
Non-casters get more unique abilities (evasion, divine grace, uncanny dodge, etc)
The last one is the big what. A rogue without evasion isn't a rogue. A paladin without divine grace and aura of courage isn't a paladin. A ranger without a combat style is hardly a ranger. A caster with only 1st-level spells, however, remains a caster.

[ranagrande]

I think the best thing about E1 would be always being able to take feats that can only be taken at first level.

It opens up some interesting possibilities.

[RolandDeschain]

Mind Over Body feat would become even better for your arcane casters.

[heavyfuel]

I think the best thing about E1 would be always being able to take feats that can only be taken at first level.

It opens up some interesting possibilities.

Ooh! Nice catch!


Mind Over Body feat would become even better for your arcane casters.

I'm pretty sure you mean Psionic Body. If so, then yes, it's broken as heck in e6 and in e1 would be even more so.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold with flaws, get Epic Toughness.
Take whatever class you want, I'd probably go with Dragonfire Adept with Entangling Exhalation, and try to pick up Power Surge later, assuming you get extra feats instead of levels like in E6.
You can eventually gain the Dracolich template.

[heavyfuel]

Do characters in E# qualify for epic feats? I'm AFB right now, but I'm pretty sure having "epic" in the name of your game mode isn't the same as being an epic character. If I'm not mistaken (and there's a very good chance that I am) you need 21 HD to become epic according to the DMG and ELH

[eggynack]

Do characters in E# qualify for epic feats? I'm AFB right now, but I'm pretty sure having "epic" in the name of your game mode isn't the same as being an epic character. If I'm not mistaken (and there's a very good chance that I am) you need 21 HD to become epic according to the DMG and ELH
He's accessing the epic feats through kobold chicanery, rather than through any sort of E whatever based semantics.

[heavyfuel]

He's accessing the epic feats through kobold chicanery, rather than through any sort of E whatever based semantics.

Oh... Never mind me then... I really should stop going on this forum when I'm sleepy

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Do characters in E# qualify for epic feats? I'm AFB right now, but I'm pretty sure having "epic" in the name of your game mode isn't the same as being an epic character. If I'm not mistaken (and there's a very good chance that I am) you need 21 HD to become epic according to the DMG and ELH

Dragonwrought Kobolds use the same twelve age categories as true dragons (regardless of whether or not you consider them to be true dragons). On page 66 of the Draconomicon, at the top right under Epic Feats, it states that any creature of the dragon type (such as a dragonwrought kobold) which is at least old age per the twelve age categories is able to take epic feats regardless of how few levels they have, specifically as an exception to normal the minimum 21st level.

[malonkey1]

Dragonwrought Kobolds use the same twelve age categories as true dragons (regardless of whether or not you consider them to be true dragons). On page 66 of the Draconomicon, at the top right under Epic Feats, it states that any creature of the dragon type (such as a dragonwrought kobold) which is at least old age per the twelve age categories is able to take epic feats regardless of how few levels they have, specifically as an exception to normal the minimum 21st level.

Wait, where does it say DW Kobolds use true dragon age categories?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wait, where does it say DW Kobolds use true dragon age categories?

The Kobold chapter of Races of the Dragon, the same book that Dragonwrought appears in.

[Twilightwyrm]

Wait, where does it say DW Kobolds use true dragon age categories?

They don't. Or at least, not the age categories Draconomicon describes. Some funny person thought it would be flavorful to name certain age ranges for Dragonwrought Kobolds after those of true dragons, not realizing the RAW shenanigans that would result from such a foolish decision.

[Bluydee]

No, no, no, I would rather not drag this off topic with whether or not kobolds are true dragons. Plus, the age categories are the same for both normal kobolds and dragonwrought, it's just that they and dragons both have old.

[Jeff the Green]

Neither Rogues nor Swordsages could qualify for Weapon Finesse.

[Snowbluff]

I think LA would be even more disproportionally strong. With lower levels, weird DR and stuff like that is more useful.

Also, this sounds awesome. I could crank out a lot of silly level 1 cheese. :smalltongue:

@rubik: Kobold with that level 6 cleric sub level? :smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

Neither Rogues nor Swordsages could qualify for Weapon Finesse.
Probably for the best to houserule that away, in this and all situations. Really stupid prerequisite, and all indications show that they put it in there to prevent that sort of class from taking it, given that the alternative is that they really wanted to stop wizards from finessing stuff for some reason.

[ShurikVch]

Aristocrat with Mercantile Background and pack of Magebred Warbeast Guard Dogs... :smallbiggrin:

[Extra Anchovies]

Aristocrat with Mercantile Background and pack of Magebred Warbeast Guard Dogs... :smallbiggrin:

Why stop there? Why not play a human wizard with the Collegiate Wizard feat and Mercantile Background, sell your spellbook, and buy a few warbeast fleshrakers?

[JusticeZero]

I know someone who would likely love to play E1. Personally I find it overly squishy. Also, fighting characters can't fight very well at E1. +1 to hit, woo.

[Spore]

d20 and 3.5/PF are terrible at portraying the 1st level in an interesting way. I would just pick DSA/The Dark Eye. Even a seasoned adventurer can still be killed by a cleverly set up ambush. Spell casting however is major crap in this system.

[Zaq]

I would contest your claim that full BAB and non-full BAB classes are "notably different." A +1 is really pretty trivial overall. It's not to be ignored outright, but it's still pretty minor. I don't consider someone with 14 in their attacking stat (same BAB otherwise) to be a significantly worse warrior than the fellow with 16, after all.

It's true that in an E1 scenario, every bonus is going to count, but still, BAB +1 and BAB +0 are just 5% different from each other, all else being equal.

[heavyfuel]

I would contest your claim that full BAB and non-full BAB classes are "notably different." A +1 is really pretty trivial overall. It's not to be ignored outright, but it's still pretty minor. I don't consider someone with 14 in their attacking stat (same BAB otherwise) to be a significantly worse warrior than the fellow with 16, after all.

It's true that in an E1 scenario, every bonus is going to count, but still, BAB +1 and BAB +0 are just 5% different from each other, all else being equal.

Yeah, but +1 to attack and +1 BAB are different in that +1 BAB makes you able to choose feats you otherwise can't. Just from the top of my head there's Weapon Finesse and Power Attack

[Anlashok]

Yeah, but +1 to attack and +1 BAB are different in that +1 BAB makes you able to choose feats you otherwise can't. Just from the top of my head there's Weapon Finesse and Power Attack

Weapon Finesse is the big one here, because it means this design choice cripples dex based martials (who tend to be 3/4ths BAB like the rogue).

The OP touts "showing the difference between a trained warrior and a guy with a lute" but suspiciously forgets that it destroys any differentiation between a nerd in a bathrobe who's never lifted a weapon in his life and a hardened street criminal in that regard.

[ranagrande]

Power Attack doesn't have a BAB requirement.

Honestly though, class probably isn't that important. Most classes (even casters) are not that great at level one, and most class abilities will be replicable with feats or items.

If I were to make a character for an E1 campaign, I'd make an Elan. Anything, even an Elan Commoner would work.

My first feat would be Human Heritage. The second would be Aberration Blood. My next dozen or so feats would be other Aberrant feats. At some point I'd want to take Enhanced Elan Resilience and Enhanced Elan Resistance.

Each Aberrant feat will give 2 HP and 1 PP. For every two, they also give +1 to Natural Armor and Will saves, not to mention all kinds of useful things like flight and tentacle attacks.

And the built-in backstory is pretty awesome... a human who became an aberration, who tries to regain his humanity and gains power as his aberrant nature asserts itself.

[heavyfuel]

It doesn't have the prerequisite, but it's near useless without 1 BAB.

And class matters if you're an Abrupt Jaunt Wizard.

[Ruethgar]

I'd add druid to the list. All of the magical power of those other classes, along with reasonable levels of resilience, and an infinitely regenerating fighter friend. It helps, also, that greenbound summoning is a thing at this level.

Druid has nothing on 9th level spells and a Wish SLA, Green Ash Bound summons be damned.

[Pilo]

Incarnum will be very nice. All the versatility, Incarnum feat plus the feat that give 2hps for each other incarnum feat you have.

Might be a lot better with the wound alternate rule from Unearthed Arcana.

[eggynack]

Druid has nothing on 9th level spells and a Wish SLA, Green Ash Bound summons be damned.
Ah, so you mean ridiculously TO elven generalists. That seems like a different thing. Cause really, at that point, the best E1 character is a kobold paladin.

[Extra Anchovies]

Incarnum will be very nice. All the versatility, Incarnum feat plus the feat that give 2hps for each other incarnum feat you have.

True. Not getting any binds would be awfully limiting, but Incarnum feats would be your friend. If I were in an E1 game, I'd play an Incarnate and would pick up Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige. So much versatility! Plus the poor BAB wouldn't hurt nearly as much at only level 1.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) 1, Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) and Up The Walls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#upTheWalls). Possibly include Overchannel and Talented, and preferably use a race with bonus power points.

Make sure your character plus his gear weighs 500+ pounds. Manifest Expansion (standard action) to double your size and multiply your weight by eight, putting you at over 4,000 pounds.

Run up the wall and jump down onto up to four opponents (move action), you take no damage for jumping down and per the falling object rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects) those creatures will each take 20d6 damage.

[Yahzi]

I have to say I think E1 would be a terrible idea. D&D scales its approximation over 20 levels; focusing on just one level would be like having a monitor with one pixel. If you want that level of detail, grit, and power, try GURPS.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Love the E1 idea. But obviously as comment's highlights it needs some work to make viable.

Here's my suggestions so far.
1. Restrict it to the Generic Classes from UA, both NPC's and PC's apply.

Buff the Generic Warrior to d12 Hit Die & 2 Good saves.

2. Add a few more notable abilities to the Generic Feat list, such as say Rage.
3. Alter the following existing Generic abilities

Sneak Attack only gives +1D6 damage
Evasions Reflex Requirement becomes 2.

4. Scale Feat Acquisition, so say it takes 1000XP to earn the first, but then 1500 for the second, 2000 for the third etc.
5. +1 Background Feat for each character at character creation & +4 Skill Points to go towards a Profession, Perform or Craft skill.
6. Weapon Finesse has no BAB requirement
7. Re-write Humans to provide the following

+1 Bonus Feat, but said feat can only obtain abilities from the Generic Class ability list

or, if you'd rather Humans not be the 'default/average' race, but a race of their own.

+2 Charisma, -2 Wisdom
+2 Diplomacy, Gather Info & Bluff
+1 to a Craft or Profession skill of your choice
+2 Saving Throws against Fear effects

8. Restrict Magic Weapons and Armor to a +2 Enhancement Bonus
8. No Magic Items with a Gold Value above 10,000 Gold allowed.

One thing I'm not sure how to address though, there's a lot of spells above level 1 which should not be removed from the world as a whole. But definitely should not be something that players can get a 50 charge wand for, or having the ability to cast every day.

[prufock]

At this level of restriction, you're really stripping it down to a non-leveled system, and I would say it's just as well to make it a non-classed system as well. Make all of the first-level class features into feats and give everyone X feats as a starting character, and an additional feat for every interval of XP (or every session, or whatever).

At this point, of course, you're very far removed from D&D, and another system might suit you better.

[Stormageddon]

I not have "Epic Feats" at every 5,000 exp, probably more like 1K or 2k for epic level feats. You're campaign will probably have a lot of PC death since it's so easy to be killed by pretty much anything at that level.

Wizards/cleric/Paladins will and really any class that has extremely low resources will probably not be play.

You could homebrew a lot of feats to make things manageable though like "Extra HP: character gains two HP." or "Bonus spell slot: Gain an extra 1st level or 0 level spell slot."

I disagree with the BAB theory 0 isn't much different then +1 at first level. That's why it's not silly for a 1st level wizard to be armed with a crossbow at level 1.

[Gwazi Magnum]

The +1 BAB is meant to represent ability to grab combat feats though, and it's those feats that represent the increased combat ability.
If the ability to grab combat feats for some reason isn't enough for people though you can always buff +1 BAB to be +2.

[Extra Anchovies]

You could homebrew a lot of feats to make things manageable though like "Extra HP: character gains two HP." or "Bonus spell slot: Gain an extra 1st level or 0 level spell slot."

Those are both already doable: Toughness adds 3 HP (wow, it's actually worth taking for once!), and Precocious Apprentice lets you cast second-level spells, so you can then take Extra Slot for more 1st-level spells.

[eggynack]

The +1 BAB is meant to represent ability to grab combat feats though, and it's those feats that represent the increased combat ability.
Checking dndtools, it looks like the list of feats with such a prerequisite is: braced for charge, daunting presence, deathmaster, eviscerator, exotic shield proficiency, eyes in the back of your head, goad, phalanx fighting, powerful charge, shadow strike, shaped splash, swarmfighting, weapon finesse, weapon focus, and zen archery. There is also, of course, the reasonable list of feats that have one of those as a prerequisite, with particular attention paid to weapon focus. Seems like a solid enough benefit, though it's not a massive difference, especially as quite a few of those feats are just bad, even in this level range. There's definitely not much of a barrier to entry for others entering melee on this basis.