Aquatic Elf Cleric Archer and Uncertainties Thereby Encountered in Making it a Thing

[Gnome Alone]

So I'm rolling up a cleric archer, because obviously I need to be able to do everything AND kill people with arrows.

(Whenever I do get to play in a campaign again, that is - lately I seem to be only DMing, and that infrequently enough that I'm doing mostly one-shots. One of these days I am going to have to overcome my terror of using the online rolling thing and try to play in a PbP game here. But I digress. And nearly instanteously, geez.)

But anyway, so I've been looking at the rather dashing and famous Quickstart Cleric Archer (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/quickstart-cleric-archer.html) handbook, and now I'm pretty taken with having the character be an Aquatic Elf; I thought of a sketch of a backstory and everything.

But holy crap, there are three different versions of Aquatic Elves. There's the Stormwrack ones, which don't actually get longbow proficiency - the normal elf-y ones are explicitly replaced by tridents, longspears and nets. So they're out.

Then there's the ones in the Monster Manual, the entry of which says that they use tridents and spears and nets but does not explicitly say that the proficiencies are exchanged. So... I don't know?

(Both of these have gills, btw, which will become important shortly.)

Then there's the ones in Unearthed Arcana/the SRD, the "Environmental Racial Variants" part, which says that "Aquatic Elves" are like the "Aquatic Elf" from the Monster Manual, except they have no gills, and they have aquatic traits and elf racial traits. (And by the way, "Aquatic Elves are like Aquatic Elves except..." is not the least confusing sentence formulation I've ever seen.)

So these last seem best, because theoretically "elf racial traits" includes the all-important longbow proficiency, and "no gills" means they don't have to worry about suffocating in (Constitution score) number of hours, like the other two? Or does it mean they don't even have that, that they can only be out of the water for mere rounds before they suffocate, as indicated by the description of the aquatic subtype?

So, the aquatic elf cleric archer... is it even, like, street-legal, maaaan? For the love of pants, I can not even figure out if they: a) have longbow proficiency, or b) die near-instantaneously out of water or not. These are, uh, kind of important issues.

For the record, I know it would be far easier to just use a Wild Elf instead (or set the Human bonus feat on fire for longbow proficiency) and be done with it, but I don't want another puppy, I want Scruffy, dammit.

[ranagrande]

Perhaps a better option would be to play that Wild Elf or Wood Elf or whatever, and add the Amphibious Creature template from Stormwrack.

+0 LA, you gain the Aquatic subtype, you can exist indefinitely on land or underwater, you get all the racial weapon abilities you wanted, and your fluff stays intact for the price of -2 dex.

[Duke of Urrel]

Ranged Attacks Underwater

Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a -2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range.

I'm quoting this (from the Wilderness chapter in the SRD, here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#underwaterCombat)) not to be mean, but to warn you of some possible combat difficulties in your otherwise very flavorful plan, assuming that you would like to have underwater adventures. Be sure to talk this issue over with your dungeon master. Maybe there's some magical way around this problem, such as Freedom of Movement arrows.

[MilesTiden]

Longbow, Aquatic: Made by the aquatic elves, the aquatic longbow functions as a normal ranged weapon out of the water, with a 60-foot range increment. Underwater, it has a range increment of 10 feet, but it does not take the normal penalty for a ranged attack through water. If you have the Aquatic Shot feat, the aquatic longbow’s range increment improves to 30 feet underwater. Aquatic longbows are favored by aquatic elves.

From stormwrack, which I assume would be being used.

[Gnome Alone]

Perhaps a better option would be to play that Wild Elf or Wood Elf or whatever, and add the Amphibious Creature template from Stormwrack.

+0 LA, you gain the Aquatic subtype, you can exist indefinitely on land or underwater, you get all the racial weapon abilities you wanted, and your fluff stays intact for the price of -2 dex.

That kind of seems like a poor trade. I am kinda banking on Zen Archery so I don't have to worry about DEX, and INT is not very important to such a character, but even then it's pretty sad to think of the Elf DEX bonus getting cancelled out and leaving me with only -2 INT in exchange for amphibiousness and longbow proficiency.

I'm quoting this (from the Wilderness chapter in the SRD, here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#underwaterCombat)) not to be mean, but to warn you of some possible combat difficulties in your otherwise very flavorful plan, assuming that you would like to have underwater adventures. Be sure to talk this issue over with your dungeon master. Maybe there's some magical way around this problem, such as Freedom of Movement arrows.

Oh, well, underwater adventures would probably be nice, but I'm imagining bringing this character to a normal, uh, land-dwelling type game. You'll notice that I'm concerned about dying from being [I]out[/] of the water; not as worried about what happens when I'm in it. So... it's not desperately important that the character be aquatic, I just think it's a nice touch; she has left her underwater temple to go on a pilgrimage for some such-and-such reason, etc.

From stormwrack, which I assume would be being used.

Oh man, it's a harpoon gun, kinda! I don't think that a cleric that was a Stormwrackian aquatic elf would be proficient in it though - too busy revering Deep Sashelas or whatever. Still, I could see trying to argue a (at this point entirely theoretical) DM into it. "Aw, c'mon," I'd say. "What the hell, right?"

Thanks for the advice, guys. Sorry if it seems like I'm nitpicking it or what-have-you; I do appreciate it.

[MilesTiden]

Would War domain fulfill your requirements? Assuming you could find an appropriate deity?

EDIT: Also, I meant the Aquatic Longbow being used, not the Stormwrack aquatic elf.

[AlanBruce]

You would think that races that have lived their entire life underwater would not suffer such penalties with ranged weapons.

In fact, Stormwrack has an illustration of a sea elf with a harpoon, I believe, just about to hunt some prey.

If I were the DM, I'd allow the character in question to ignore the penalty when shooting creatures native to its environment (underwater) without having to purchase special bows or burn a feat, while applying said penalty to the character when using the bow out of the water against land foes, since he or she would not be used to hunting on dry land.

[Gnome Alone]

Would War domain fulfill your requirements? Assuming you could find an appropriate deity?

EDIT: Also, I meant the Aquatic Longbow being used, not the Stormwrack aquatic elf.

Oh, I see now, you're just pointing me in the direction of a bitchin' weapon of versatility most true. Cool; thanks.

Well, yeah, War Domain would give longbow proficiency, but I can't remember who of the approximately 58 kajillion D&D gods has favored weapon: longbow AND grants the War domain - and honestly, I suspect that "hey can I worship this weird deity you've never heard of from Obscure Campaign Setting X" would go over worse than just "hey can I use this Unearthed Arcana subrace?"

Current plan is Cloistered Cleric of Ehlonna with Celerity and Elf and Knowledge domains; Knowledge of course traded for Knowledge Devotion. Funnily enough, Normal Cleric of Deep Sashelas can get the Knowledge and Elf domains too and have Medium BAB besides, but there goes all the skill points to power Knowledge Devotion in the first place.

[Troacctid]

Well, yeah, War Domain would give longbow proficiency, but I can't remember who of the approximately 58 kajillion D&D gods has favored weapon: longbow AND grants the War domain - and honestly, I suspect that "hey can I worship this weird deity you've never heard of from Obscure Campaign Setting X" would go over worse than just "hey can I use this Unearthed Arcana subrace?"

Ooh! Ooh! I know this one! Vandria Gilmadrith from Races of the Wild. Law, Protection, and War domains, favored weapon longbow. :smallbiggrin:

There's also two elf deities from Forgotten Realms, if you're in that setting: Shevarash (Chaos, Elf, Retribution, and War domains) and Solonor Thelandira (Chaos, Elf, Good, Plant, and War domains), both from Faiths & Pantheons.

[Gnome Alone]

You know what, I think I figured out the confusion between Unearthed Arcana aquatic elves and the Monster Manual ones: given that the former are in the elemental variants section they should probably be called "Water Elves" instead.

[Gemini476]

You know what, I think I figured out the confusion between Unearthed Arcana aquatic elves and the Monster Manual ones: given that the former are in the elemental variants section they should probably be called "Water Elves" instead.
Nah, the aquatic elves are in the environmental variants section alongside aquatic dwarves and orcs and whatnot.
Literally the only difference between them and the MM ones are that they swap out gills (being able to breath above water for a decent amount of time) for knowing Aquan. Its a bad choice.

The water races are orcs and halflings - elves are fire.

[Gnome Alone]

Nah, the aquatic elves are in the environmental variants section alongside aquatic dwarves and orcs and whatnot.
Literally the only difference between them and the MM ones are that they swap out gills (being able to breath above water for a decent amount of time) for knowing Aquan. Its a bad choice.

The water races are orcs and halflings - elves are fire.

Huh. Thanks. Despite liking all those elemental/environmental variants and checking them from time to time, I never can keep straight which has which.

Are you sure about the gills thing? Because Dictuum Mortuum, in the handbook I linked, seems to think that having no gills instead means they don't have to worry about suffocating out of water at all.

Which, if true, makes me wonder: would that mean they can't actually breathe in water? Because if so, an aquatic elf cleric all of a sudden makes even more sense, because they're gonna need some serious constant divine intervention just to avoid extinction.

[Greenish]

Races with Aquatic subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#aquaticSubtype) can only breathe water (and risk suffocation in air), unless they have the Amphibious special quality. Whether or not a race has gills does not matter. (Note that MMI/Stormwrack aquatic elves can survive far longer out of water than the UA aquatic elves who lack gills.)

In any case, unless the campaign takes place mostly underwater, you're better off applying Amphibious template to an elf of your choosing, as suggested above.


[Edit]: In case I wasn't clear enough, Dictum Mortuum is simply wrong when it comes to RAW. UA aquatic elves have Aquatic subtype, and lack Amphibious special quality, meaning they can only hold their breath for two rounds per point of constitution before risking suffocation outside water.

[Gnome Alone]

[Edit]: In case I wasn't clear enough, Dictum Mortuum is simply wrong when it comes to RAW. UA aquatic elves have Aquatic subtype, and lack Amphibious special quality, meaning they can only hold their breath for two rounds per point of constitution before risking suffocation outside water.

No, I got it the first time. I appreciate the extra clarity, though. I saw that bit about the aquatic subtype, but wondered if maybe he knew something I didn't, as these hi-op dudes often seem to.

Looks like I'm not the first to be confused over this same exact issue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?227944-lvl-1-aquatic-elf-in-a-dungeon-Viable), at least.

So let's see. Unearthed Arcana ones are actually the ones that are out of consideration, then. Leaving me with the Stormwrack or MM ones. Assuming they're even different. But in either case, they at least have the stupid gills, making it conceivable-though-still-insane that they'd sign on as the traditional "violent hobo land pirates."

So it seems to me, as far as the longbow proficiency goes, I have these options:

A1) argue that Monster Manual aquatic elves have the normal elf proficiencies because it doesn't say they don't, just that they fight underwater with tridents, spears and nets. Seems rules lawyer-y, but I ain't above trying.

A2) argue that a Stormwrack/MM sea elf would be proficient with an aquatic longbow before they'd be proficient with many of the normal "simple weapons." Like, say, the sling - surely a rather ludicrous weapon for someone who lives underwater to have any idea what to do with. (This is probably the most logical option and rational argument, and thus doomed to fail.)

A3) take a normal-ish elf and use the amphibious template. I really don't want to do this; for starters, it seems like I'd basically be asking the DM to let me create my own race. Segundus, and, ha, again mentioned in the thread I just linked, a total stat modifier of -2 INT is, well... seems like a real -2 INT kind of move.

A4) worship Velandria Grimdeath or whoever, as helpfully suggested above. She seems awful war-like and, ugh, Lawful Neutral, for my purposes, but it is viable.

A5) blow the 1st level feat on longbow proficiency. Seeing as how I'm already trying to use the domain choices to finagle Knowledge Devotion, Point Blank Shot, and +10 ft. movement speed at first level, it's not inconceivable, but I am apparently now enough of an optimizer that the idea of spending a feat just to become proficient with a weapon makes me, like, barf inside my heart a little.

A6) try to get it through taking a Flaw. Apparently I am not yet enough of an optimizer to ever want to take a Flaw; it just kinda feels like saying, "hey, I'm applying for my munchkin badge now."

B) the all-purpose Plan B of picking the entire town up and just moving it five miles down the road: just play a damn Wild Elf.

Hrmm.