Permanent Emanation + time stop

[With a box]

1. Is it ligal by raw?
2. Dose he get old while he is in time stop?
3. how would you fight against this?
4. what I should take first, epic spellcasting or this?

[dethkruzer]

No, it is not RAW legal. The feat specifically requires a spell that has an emanation range, where as time stop has a range of personal.

[Inevitability]

If you want to be permanently in a time stop, just make a Faustian Pact for a single 16th-level spell slot, then take Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Magical Training and Arcane Disciple (time) as feats. I recommend you being an Elan, Killoren or Warforged.

Now you can cast an Persisted Extended Time Stop (no matter your class/level) to stop time for 48 hours of apparent time. After 24 hours, re-prepare spells and cast it again. Rinse, repeat.

[Uncle Pine]

To elaborate, you can't take Permanent Emanation (Time Stop) because Time Stop doesn't have an area and Permanent Emanation requires the designated spell to have an area and that area to be an emanation centered on you. On the other hand, Extended Persisted Time Stop works wonderfully if you want to be 24/24 under the effect of Time Stop (you can even DMM it if you're a Cleric with the Trickery domain). Beware that while you could dismiss or restart the effect of a Permanent Emanation (Time Stop) you have to wait for the entire duration of your Extended Persisted Time Stop to expire.

[dethkruzer]

Also, if you do decide to persist a time stop effect, I would recommend bringing a helmet, because shenanigans like that might get a DMG or similarly heavy book thrown at your soft squishy face at high velocity.

[Pan151]

Time Stop's duration is (arguably, since it's described but not explicitly called out as such) instantaneous, so it cannot be persisted.

[With a box]

let's say I cast miderape on DM to allow this, what is your answer of other qusetion?

[Pan151]

2) DM's call.

3) You don't fight against it. You don't let it happen in the first place.

4) None. First you become Pun-Pun. (if you're gonna delve into unplayable TO, you might as well do it properly)

[Uncle Pine]

Time Stop's duration is (arguably, since it's described but not explicitly called out as such) instantaneous, so it cannot be persisted.


Time Stop
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 9, Trickery 9
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text


Time Stop's duration isn't istantaneous until you can show where it says so.

[Inevitability]

Also:

4. You use Dark Chaos Shuffle shenanigans to get both.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Going past "no DM will allow this," "you deserve to have books thrown at you for trying", and the most sensible response of all... outright banning Persistent Spell for the broken pile of *&^% it is....


Time Stop's duration isn't istantaneous until you can show where it says so.

Its duration also isn't 1d4+1 rounds until you can show where it says so. Apparent time =/= time.

No actual duration goes by while the spell is in effect.


Duration

A spell’s Duration entry tells you how long the magical energy of the spell lasts.

Time Stop does not have a duration by the very definition of what a duration is. Question: How long does it last? Answer: It doesn't.

[Erik Vale]

No apparent time outside =/= no time, thus it has a duration, it even calls itself out on speeding you up not slowing time down. It's externally apparent duration is however arguably less than instantaneous, but it still has a duration.

Edit: Adding in externally/outside.

[Uncle Pine]

Its duration also isn't 1d4+1 rounds until you can show where it says so. Apparent time =/= time.

No actual duration goes by while the spell is in effect.

Time Stop does not have a duration by the very definition of what a duration is. Question: How long does it last? Answer: It doesn't.

By the very definition of what a duration is, a spell's duration is either timed duration, instantaneous, permanent or concentration. Time Stop's duration isn't listed as instantaneous, permanent or concentration. Thus, it can only have a timed duration, be it apparent or not.

Apparent time is time. If you spammed continuously Time Stop you could age faster than other people. Nevertheless, I don't think that this is the place for a philosophical debate about the nature of time.

[Shalist]

Not strictly on topic, but a quick aside on persistent time stops thats bugged me on occasion:

Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you.
In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds.
You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time.


Spells with a fixed or personal range can have their duration increased to 24 hours

You could argue that 'persistent spell' increases both the duration (which while brief, is not quite instantaneous, per the quoted text) and apparent duration (1d4+1 rounds) to 24 hours, meaning that actual and apparant time are the same, and the spell effectively does nothing ('Protection from Phane'?). However, 'persistent spell' only mentions increasing the duration, and says nothing about apparent durations. Ergo, a persistent time stop would give its target 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time, spread out over the course of 24 actual hours.

Given that personal spells have no saving throws or SR, I suppose you could use this offensively (i.e. via Ordianed Champion 3 melee, or ideally Spellguard of Silverymoon 4 (+ 'magic of the land,' 'ocular spell,' 'chain spell') ); barring AMF or a ring of spell battle, it'd unavoidably freeze anyone within range for 24 actual hours.

Bonus points for being a 'harmless buff' and thus bypassing foresight, more bonus points due to time stop specifically allowing for targets to be damaged, and to interact with objects "not in a creature's possession" (like crossbow bolts to the face), while under its affects...

It does seem like a lot of resources to pool into one trick. Maybe use it as some plot thing, like a temporal prison for a phane or something...?

edit: minor spelling

edit 2: So a permanent emanation time stop would give someone 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time...spread out over the entire permanent duration of the affect. That would make a very awesome epic prison for some epic baddie...once every 1000 years for 1d4+1 thousand years, the baddie gets a single round of actions to try and break free until its trapped forever...

[Jeff the Green]

You could argue that 'persistent spell' increases both the duration (which while brief, is not quite instantaneous, per the quoted text) and apparent duration (1d4+1 rounds) to 24 hours, meaning that actual and apparant time are the same, and the spell effectively does nothing ('Protection from Phane'?). However, 'persistent spell' only mentions increasing the duration, and says nothing about apparent durations. Ergo, a persistent time stop would give its target 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time, spread out over the course of 24 actual hours.

I really want a player to try persisting time stop now.

[Pan151]

Time Stop's duration isn't istantaneous until you can show where it says so.


Time Stop
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 9, Trickery 9
Components: V
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.
You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.
You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.


Which is why I said "arguably" instantaneous.

Also, instantaneous is just a fancy name for "expires too fast to be measurable in any in-game time units". It does not mean the duration is literally 0.000000 seconds - an instantaneous spell like fireball still takes some, however small, amount of time to travel from caster to target. Likewise, Time Stop has a non-0 real time duration, it's just too small for the caster to have any meaningful interaction with the rest of the world and vice versa.

[Phelix-Mu]

The problem with counting apparent time as real time for the purposes of duration is that time is time in the rules. The rounds created by the spell are basically fake rounds, time that isn't passing for anyone anywhere. That's not really time in the game sense. Duration is the passage of time, measured by the game in rounds/minutes/hours/etc, but it doesn't have a unit for fake rounds that pass so fast that no one else measures them.

So, fake time in which your character can do extra things in a strangely modified world isn't actually time in the mechanical way the term is used by the game. The game should have written the duration as "instantaneous (see text)" since that is how it appears to an objective observer (like anyone playing the game aside from the caster's player), and rules in the game are generally handled objectively, not subjectively.

In short, time that is only time for one person isn't time. In no other place does the game suggest that time works that way, generally providing a ratio that can theoretically scale up to NI:1, but which is measured in terms of incrementally increasing actions to that rate. Time stop really botched the whole description and stat block, and thus is suitable only for TO use shenanigans, imho, since even a strict RAW DM will have to houserule all over the place to cover for interactions that the spell may make possible (or might not, vague spell is vague).

[Zanos]

You can still intensify time stop for 10 rounds if you have epic shenanigans. If that's not enough to craft the battlefield into a series of inescapable deathtraps I don't think 24 hours is going to help.