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View Full Version : Roleplaying The Ethics Of Scamming Your Fellow Party-Members



Q. Flestrin
2014-10-05, 05:48 AM
Greetings!

So I'm taking a break from DMing at the moment (the ranting, however, continues), and I'm playing a wizard in a 3.5 game. I just reached third level and took Craft Wondrous Item as my feat, and I've promised to make a healing item for our warforged fighter. It takes the form of an amulet I install into his chest, and can cast repair light damage once per day. I've worked it out that this would cost 400 gp in a store, or 225 gp for me to make, because I don't actually know repair light damage and need the scroll.

The thing is, our warforged fighter is willing to bankroll some, if not all of this. My question: how much should I charge him? I have my eye on a few spells I want copied into my spellbook, and with scribing costs being what they are ...

I'm thinking of asking for 300 gp. That covers my costs, adds a little to cover the 16 XP, and gives me that little extra bit that always helps. Thoughts?

BWR
2014-10-05, 06:41 AM
'Scamming'? The question comes down to whether you want to make money off your party honestly or not. If you want to be up front, you state a price and see if the other part agrees ooc. You are already charging less than a commercial competitor and unless your party has some sort of agreement about only charging cost or having some other form of compensation I don't see that you are in any way unfair. Some groups assume that the everyone works for free, paying only material costs and xp costs. Others don't.

Honestly, this is a question better asked of your fellow players than us.

Ettina
2014-10-05, 08:47 AM
What would your character do? I think if it's valid roleplay and others don't take it personally, anything goes.

Pex
2014-10-05, 10:56 AM
{Scrubbed}

Sartharina
2014-10-05, 02:44 PM
It's not a scam to offer a fair rate for the item, and you shouldn't have to make it 'for free', since somebody has to pay - by charging him, you're just shuffling the wealth around: He gets a magic item at a discount, you get the funds needed to get the spells you need.

ClockShock
2014-10-05, 03:05 PM
This is an excellent roleplaying opportunity - use it.

nedz
2014-10-05, 03:39 PM
It's a good deal for the Warforged, especially since he has a friendly Wizard who can now cast curing spells on him. Obviously you have better uses for your level 1 spell slots at the moment, but at some point you will have spare ones.

huttj509
2014-10-05, 03:49 PM
Yeah, that's not scamming him, it's just offering a party discount of less than "at cost" which IMO is fine.

Look at it this way. Even if you charged book price, there's still the benefit of on commission custom items, which might not be otherwise easily available in your campaign.

Now, offering a party discount benefits you as well, because your allies having more shinies means you can depend on them to do more. But 25% party discount is still significant, and also lets you make up some of the "feat tax."

A scam would be more if you made him the amulet, but it was actually a cursed amulet of mind control or something. Which would probably not be cool. Or if you charged 200% market price because he didn't know what market price for it would be. That might also not be cool.

Jay R
2014-10-05, 08:17 PM
Process the phrase, "The Ethics of Scamming".

Mastikator
2014-10-05, 11:34 PM
Scamming would be to lie to him saying it costs more than it does.

You should charge 400 gp for time and xp spent.

Segev
2014-10-06, 12:39 AM
Yeah, this isn't "scamming," unless you try to justify it by claiming it's "at cost." Which there's no reason to do. You charge what you charge; your time, effort, and exp is worth what you can get somebody to pay for it. If they can get the same thing cheaper elsewhere, let them do so.

I know there are players who get horrifically offended if a PC in the party doesn't craft "at cost" for the party (where I've seen them go so far as to define it as half the market value, because "XP is a river"). I've partied with at least one, and just shrugged and made items for the other party members. My character's policy was 75% market value for fellow PCs, provided that at least covered all his costs (including 5 gp per XP he had to expend). It almost invariably does. I don't know what goes through others' heads when they assume that you should give it for "cost" when you had to invest your feats and the like and still have to invest time. It's still cheaper, but if they don't like it, there's always market price they can pay (if they can find it in the first place).

But no, you're not "scamming" to do this, and you shouldn't feel like you are. The other guy knows the market price, hopefully, or at least will shop around IC if he doesn't. If you're making a truly custom job and there aren't others around to do so at "market rate," you would be within your rights to charge whatever you could get and still have him be happy enough to pay up and consider you a friend and ally. "Fair" is whatever it's worth to the other party, provided you're not basically extorting them. ("I'll sell you my services of pulling you up from your precarious hang off the cliff for all of your worldly possessions.") It can be hard to tell where the line is, at times, but here, it really isn't. Charge what you can charge that he'll pay, and don't go any lower than you consider it "worth it" to you.

Jay R
2014-10-06, 07:07 AM
The ethics of the market has always been based on the idea that selling something at a price the buyer is willing to pay and the seller is willing to accept benefits both parties. As long as you aren't misrepresenting your merchandise, and you're not deliberately hiding information about alternate markets, there's no scam here.

ElenionAncalima
2014-10-06, 10:16 AM
Scamming would be charging him extra, while claiming to charge him less or giving him an item that doesn't actually work the way you said. You are just trying to make a profit, while still giving him a good deal.

Whether or not that is okay depends on the table. Definitley talk to the other players out of character. Explain that you think your character is the kind of person to want to make a profit from his work, however, you want to check that everyone is comfortable with you roleplaying that way.

Segev
2014-10-06, 11:04 AM
Frankly, if the other PLAYERS express an issue with it, that means they feel that your character belongs to them in some way more than he does to you. They feel you and your character owe them something for...well, because they say so.

I would either change your build to exclude the magic item crafting or at the least refuse to craft on their behalf anymore if that's the case, because at that point they're trying to scam you.

Q. Flestrin
2014-10-07, 05:39 PM
Thanks for all the advice, and I'm sorry for not returning to this sooner to say the following: I have realized that I set this up entirely wrong, because I am not good at conversation on- or offline.

What I forgot to say was that my character has been established as a con man in-game, and the real question I was asking was how far should I extend this to my party members. I'm leaning towards no, since the warforged has been established as basically my longest true friend in-game, and the only one who actually knows I'm a con man.

I will talk it over with the player out-of-game, though, and see what he thinks.

I'm so sorry for not explaining all this.:smalleek:

Vitruviansquid
2014-10-07, 07:06 PM
I say go ahead and con the hell out of your party members. In fact, if your character's a conman, you could almost say the more you con, then better (without it being too obnoxiously often that you stop the game every 10 minutes with a con idea)

But con them in-game, not out-of-game.

Coidzor
2014-10-07, 08:09 PM
The 60% to 80% range is where I see most people charge if they're not crafting at cost because they've agreed to that beforehand and also not charging list price.

Charging more than list price is generally considered gouging, especially in a game where the party as a group is required to craft all of their items, because then the item-dependent characters that can't craft are bent both ways over the barrel.

Edit: A note, it's generally safer to not have too much of a gap between your character's gear and the gear of the rest of the party in terms of wealth, as it approaches tempting fate the more of a wealth discrepancy there is.

Also, unless there's something like developing a fiefdom competing with you, your crafter is going to have 90%+ of the party's wealth pass through the crucible of their crafting feats. If there is something competing with you, then you'll want to price competitively, naturally. If there isn't, well, charge 60% or 90% or 100%, all of their gold that can go into a craftable item will go through you, the percentage just determines how many items they're going to have out of the deal.

If you do charge more than the cost you have to make it, then I would recommend putting a fair amount of the profit you make first into a way to obviate XP costs for crafting if possible and then into things that will benefit the party as a whole rather than just putting it into having personal gear equal to your wealth plus 1/2 the wealth of the rest of the party combined. For one thing, it helps avoid the problem of being massively overgeared co mpared to the rest of the party, and the other players/characters can feel more reassured in that they're paying for both the party's sweet airship/wossname as well as their individual gear when they fork that cash over.

Segev
2014-10-08, 12:36 AM
The first thing a con man has to determine before a con is: what does he want out of the deal? The second is: what is he going to lie about, and what is he really going to deliver? The third is: do I really want to defecate where I consume?

Jay R
2014-10-09, 10:06 PM
As soon as you realize that the rest of your party is helping keep you alive, it becomes much clearer. It is to your advantage for the rest of the party to have good quality items. Making the items too expensive hurts you as much as them.

Sartharina
2014-10-09, 10:45 PM
I say go ahead and con the hell out of your party members. In fact, if your character's a conman, you could almost say the more you con, then better (without it being too obnoxiously often that you stop the game every 10 minutes with a con idea)

But con them in-game, not out-of-game.... no. The first thing a con man, or any criminal for that matter, learns, is "Don't **** where you sleep."

Segev
2014-10-10, 09:14 AM
As soon as you realize that the rest of your party is helping keep you alive, it becomes much clearer. It is to your advantage for the rest of the party to have good quality items. Making the items too expensive hurts you as much as them.

To me, the trade-off is this: If I'm doing it "at cost" or cheaper, I make it only if I think him having it benefits me relatively directly. Either it helps him perform some task which I rely on better (a ring of Friend Shielding which I have the other half of, or a Sun Blade I have specially enchanted to not affect my own undead minions so he's not using a Sun Blade that WILL affect them, or a Pearl of Power for the cleric who regularly casts buffs on me or my minions), or it makes my own job within the party easier (...and I'm drawing a blank, because my example was the Pearl of Power for buffs I put on them, but I'd be carrying that, not them).

If they're asking me for something that, sure, is nice for them and thus makes them better at being party members, but it's not going to be for my personal benefit in some way, I'm at least charging him cost, and probably charging him cost+exp. And even then only if he's really strapped for cash and he makes a good case how it helps him do his job better.

If it's because he wants one (including when he says it'll make him better at his job but I think it's just a neat toy he wants), I'm charging 75% market value, because I also want neat toys and more gold helps me make them.

Jay R
2014-10-10, 10:31 AM
To me, the trade-off is this: If I'm doing it "at cost" or cheaper, I make it only if I think him having it benefits me relatively directly.

Makes sense. But don't forget that if your wizard is trying to stay out of melee, then the fighter's weapons and armor benefit him directly.

Segev
2014-10-10, 10:50 AM
Makes sense. But don't forget that if your wizard is trying to stay out of melee, then the fighter's weapons and armor benefit him directly.

That's more indirect, because it helps the Fighter do his job better in general. But still something worth potentially doing it at cost for, if he needs the boost to stay effective.

Jay R
2014-10-10, 12:58 PM
That's more indirect, because it helps the Fighter do his job better in general. But still something worth potentially doing it at cost for, if he needs the boost to stay effective.

By that definition. Everything is indirect. The value of a staff of healing spells is "indirect", because it helps the Cleric do his job better in general. But the job is specifically to help you.

You are out of melee only to the extent that the Fighter(s) can keep all the opposition occupied.

Segev
2014-10-10, 02:56 PM
Meh. We're arguing semantics at this point, which isn't all that interesting. The value judgment is a bit subjective, based on perceived benefit. The principle remains the same.

Jay R
2014-10-10, 06:41 PM
Meh. We're arguing semantics at this point, which isn't all that interesting. The value judgment is a bit subjective, based on perceived benefit. The principle remains the same.

This isn't semantics. We have a very strong, clear difference of opinion on the issue.

In a recent 2E game, my elven Thief / Wizard had gotten a mithril mine. He was going to upgrade the armor and weapons of the Fighter, the Ranger, and the Paladin before ever considering making anything for himself, because that was the most immediately useful thing he could do to improve his own situation. (Unfortunately, the DM moved away.)

Segev
2014-10-10, 07:52 PM
No, there really isn't. I don't disagree with you. How much I value a given party member's equipment will vary based on the party and situation, though.

HMS Invincible
2014-10-10, 10:36 PM
If this is considered scamming , I'll take two if your scammers. My scammers steal the loot and then sell it to the party. Or just steal other players loot period.

Q. Flestrin
2014-10-12, 05:16 AM
So, thank you for all your help. I'm going to follow the wisdom of all the people who told me not to, ahem, s*** where I eat, and go with my original idea of charging the warforged 300 gp, with a chance for him to negotiate.
As a guy who's really still something of a noob, I was heartened by your fast and furious responses to my dilemma. Have some cookies. :smallredface:

And this is just a forum etiquette thing here, since I've only recently returned to the Playground: if you put up a thread, how regularly does politeness mandate that you come back to check it?

Coidzor
2014-10-12, 06:48 PM
So, thank you for all your help. I'm going to follow the wisdom of all the people who told me not to, ahem, s*** where I eat, and go with my original idea of charging the warforged 300 gp, with a chance for him to negotiate.
As a guy who's really still something of a noob, I was heartened by your fast and furious responses to my dilemma. Have some cookies. :smallredface:

And this is just a forum etiquette thing here, since I've only recently returned to the Playground: if you put up a thread, how regularly does politeness mandate that you come back to check it?

Hooray!Ahh, sweet resolution. :smallsmile:


If you're trying to lead a discussion or your questions/issues haven't been resolved, I'd say about once or twice a day if you can, as the minimum, depending, of course, upon the interest and steam that the thread has generated. If your questions have been answered and you've no further interest, then you're pretty much good to follow it at your leisure.