Are Half-orcs weaker than other races?

[Tiri]

In the PHB, they have 2 negative ability modifiers unlike the other races with ability modifiers, which have only one negative one. They also don't get any of the bonuses the others get, only Orc Blood(which does nothing but let dwarves kill them faster) and Darkvision(which the Dwarf also has). Doesn't this make them weaker compared to the other races?

[Taveena]

They're outclassed in most regards by the Orc. Only place where they really have an advantage are the half-orc racial substitution levels (and some feats), which can be pretty sweet. Half-Orc Paladin in particular is very nice.

Anyway WotC basically decided Strength was TEH UBEREST STAT and as a result you've got that nasty -2/-2. They're not the worst race (hi there half-elf) but they aren't the best at anything, even in core, so there's not much incentive to take one from an optimisation point of view. Once you get out of core... well, a desert half orc is a pretty strong intimidator, if nothing else. Still outclassed by orcs everywhere else.

[Ceaon]

Yes, you are right. I'm afraid none of the races in the PHB are really balanced against each other in play. Usually, human is the best choice. Half-orc is almost always one of the worst, and because they also favor the already weaker classes, that's a problem.

[Judge_Worm]

While they are not as good as any of the full-blooded PHB races, I would say they are actually stronger than them. With that +2 and all.

[emeraldstreak]

While they are not as good as any of the full-blooded PHB races, I would say they are actually stronger than them. With that +2 and all.

Indeed. They are the strongest race in the PHB.

[Morty]

Anyway WotC basically decided Strength was TEH UBEREST STAT and as a result you've got that nasty -2/-2.

That's pretty much what it comes down to. When the PHB races were designed, the designers decided that a bonus to Strength is good enough to make up for two penalties and lack of any other traits.

[ShurikVch]

They're outclassed in most regards by the Orc. Only place where they really have an advantage are the half-orc racial substitution levels (and some feats), which can be pretty sweet. Half-Orc Paladin in particular is very nice. Menacing Brute (http://dndtools.eu/classes/menacing-brute/) :smallwink:


They're not the worst race (hi there half-elf) And what's so bad about half-elves? :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

Yes, they're weaker for no reason. My advice is either power them up or use the PF versions.



And what's so bad about half-elves? :smallconfused:

"No wonder you've turned to a life of crime." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html)

[Necroticplague]

Menacing Brute (http://dndtools.eu/classes/menacing-brute/) :smallwink:

Anyone else find it kinda odd that 60% of that class is things that half-orcs have penalties to, thanks to their stat penalties? Save based on CHA, bonus to CHA based skill (though admittingly, the bonus exceeds the penalty past second level), and use of an int-based skill as part of a class feature..

[georgie_leech]

Anyone else find it kinda odd that 60% of that class is things that half-orcs have penalties to, thanks to their stat penalties? Save based on CHA, bonus to CHA based skill (though admittingly, the bonus exceeds the penalty past second level), and use of an int-based skill as part of a class feature..

All that and a feat tax too. Because menacing thugs, especially orcs, are known for their ability to shake off enchantments and see through illusions.

[ShurikVch]

Anyone else find it kinda odd that 60% of that class is things that half-orcs have penalties to, thanks to their stat penalties? Save based on CHA, bonus to CHA based skill (though admittingly, the bonus exceeds the penalty past second level), and use of an int-based skill as part of a class feature.. Intimidation? :smallconfused:
Intimidation through Strength and Raging Intimidation variant rules make it (Str) skill
Also, Monstrous Mien (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfOrcParagon), and Menacing Demeanor (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-destiny--81/menacing-demeanor--1920/)


All that and a feat tax too. Because menacing thugs, especially orcs, are known for their ability to shake off enchantments and see through illusions. Actually, yes! Especially Orcs! (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-destiny--81/channeled-rage--320/) :smalltongue: (Also, Slippery Mind. And Steadfast Determination)


"No wonder you've turned to a life of crime." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html) Houses Lyrandar and Medani doesn't complaining about their heritage :smallwink:
And being able to reroll any Diplomacy or Gather Information checks (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-destiny--81/sociable-personality--2673/), and (maybe) get +3 synergy bonus on skill checks (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-destiny--81/complementary-insight--412/) may be useful
Also, Half-Elf Ranger may be decent entry to the Telflammar Shadowlord

[Psyren]

Houses Lyrandar and Medani doesn't complaining about their heritage :smallwink:
And being able to reroll any Diplomacy or Gather Information checks (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-destiny--81/sociable-personality--2673/), and (maybe) get +3 synergy bonus on skill checks (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-destiny--81/complementary-insight--412/) may be useful
Also, Half-Elf Ranger may be decent entry to the Telflammar Shadowlord

Sure, nice stuff was made for them later - but that doesn't change the fact that they suck in the PHB, which is what the OP was asking about.

Also, the fact that you have to spend feats just to make your race worthwhile is itself proof of the problem.

[atemu1234]

That depends, are we even counting half-elves?

Because Half-Elves are even worse. Unless you're running a diplomancer.

[ShurikVch]

Sure, nice stuff was made for them later - but that doesn't change the fact that they suck in the PHB, which is what the OP was asking about.

Also, the fact that you have to spend feats just to make your race worthwhile is itself proof of the problem. And what will be humans without their bonus feat?
Also, playing Half-Elf without RoD stuff, is like playing undead without Libris Mortis, or dragon without the Draconomicon
And I don't see how is Half-Elven Wizard is any less broken then plain human Wizard

[Necroticplague]

[COLOR="#0000FF"]
And I don't see how is Half-Elven Wizard is any less broken then plain human Wizard

Because none of its abilities make it significantly more useful as a wizard. Meanwhile, the human uses his extra skill point to help qualify for more PRCs, and his bonus feat at first level both helps him fast-track into PRCs and directly increases his power as a wizard. The only real leg up half-elves have is access to Elf Generalist Wizard, which isn't unique to them.

[madtinker]

It may not be the most optimized option, but I like playing wis-based casters who like to get into melee. Half-orc is very nice for that.

[Taveena]

Half-Orc /is/ a slightly better Cleric than straight orc... (but Desert Half Orc is better.) Still worse than human. But, yeah, add 'intimidating' to the list of things they are SOMEWHAT COMPETENT AT.

(Half-Orc Samurai, obviously, with his Half-Elf Truenamer companion.)

[atemu1234]

Half-Orc /is/ a slightly better Cleric than straight orc... (but Desert Half Orc is better.) Still worse than human. But, yeah, add 'intimidating' to the list of things they are SOMEWHAT COMPETENT AT.

(Half-Orc Samurai, obviously, with his Half-Elf Truenamer companion.)

Hooray for almost competence!

[StreamOfTheSky]

Half-Orcs and Half-Elves do indeed suck. Ironically, for any feat or PrC that requires being an elf, half-elf can often be more advantageous despite being a worthless race, because a giant bag of nothing still beats a Con penalty. Variant elf races can alleviate this of course, but I guess the point is...the core races are wildly imbalanced. Humans and Dwarves are blatantly the best and at the bottom you have Elves, Half-Elves, and Half-Orcs. Gnome and Halfling are niche, ranging from "about as good as a human or dwarf" for a caster or mounted warrior to utterly horrible with no in-between.

[Venger]

That depends, are we even counting half-elves?

Because Half-Elves are even worse. Unless you're running a diplomancer.

we're counting them, but they only count for half.

as terrible as half-orc is, it does at least have some neat classes. aside from medani prophet, all half-elf has is... scar enforcer.

[eggynack]

They kinda suck if you don't do anything, but as has been mentioned, they can be pretty awesome if you use various ACF's and variants. Ya gotta love dragonborn desert half-orc druids with half-orc substitution levels, for example.

[ShurikVch]

all half-elf has is... scar enforcer. You mean - exclusively?
Windwright Captain (http://dndtools.eu/classes/windwright-captain/)

[MirddinEmris]

So, what everyone was saying is that they have really low optimization floor, but if you include various sourcebooks, you can move ceiling quite a bit higher.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You mean - exclusively?
Windwright Captain (http://dndtools.eu/classes/windwright-captain/)

Outcast Champion is decent. Open to several half-human races, though.
I can't link to it though, sorry.

[ShurikVch]

Humans and Dwarves are blatantly the best and at the bottom you have Elves, Half-Elves, and Half-Orcs. Gnome and Halfling are niche, ranging from "about as good as a human or dwarf" for a caster or mounted warrior to utterly horrible with no in-between. I wonder, what's you opinion about the Goblin, Kobold, and Orc - they are Core races too, and with LA +0

For that matter, what's about the Half-Elf and Half-Orc variants?
Aquatic, Arctic, Desert, Fire, Jungle, Half-Human, Half-Drow, Scab-Lands, Water, Deepwyrm, Forestlord, Athasian, Krynnish, Tellenian, Tellenian Twilight, Tel-Amhothlan, Azeroth

[Psyren]

And what will be humans without their bonus feat?

They get their bonus feat in the PHB - you don't need a splat to get it.
Also, it's a bonus feat. The half-elf is opposite, i.e. you have to spend/lose a feat to make it good..



Also, playing Half-Elf without RoD stuff, is like playing undead without Libris Mortis, or dragon without the Draconomicon
And I don't see how is Half-Elven Wizard is any less broken then plain human Wizard

It's not, of course. Heck, you could roll a Half-Orc Wizard and it would still be T1. Race really only matters at low levels.

[Taveena]

Wizard only really stops being t1 when you have enough of an int penalty that you can't cast spells.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I wonder, what's you opinion about the Goblin, Kobold, and Orc - they are Core races too, and with LA +0

For that matter, what's about the Half-Elf and Half-Orc variants?
Aquatic, Arctic, Desert, Fire, Jungle, Half-Human, Half-Drow, Scab-Lands, Water, Deepwyrm, Forestlord, Athasian, Krynnish, Tellenian, Tellenian Twilight, Tel-Amhothlan, Azeroth

Orc is a solid melee race, Goblin is a decent Small race for rogues or mounted characters. Kobold is the weakest LA +0 race in the game, unless you have dragonwrought available, then they're one of the strongest. Orc and Goblin are more "middle tier" than the PHB races, striking the right balance.

Those variant races don't make much difference, iirc. Aquatic Half-elf is a decent race for an aquatic game, and one of the half-orcs (desert?) gets free Endurance I think. Don't recall much else of note.

[Necroticplague]

Kobold is the weakest LA +0 race in the game, unless you have dragonwrought available, then they're one of the strongest.

Not just Dragonwrought. An online article gives kobolds a claw/claw/bite routine, a unique ability that's the opposite of powerful build (letting them sneak around like a tiny creature), and the ability to effectively cast as a higher level sorceror. So they're at least decent as sorcerors.

[darksolitaire]

Kobolds are small and still have 30 feet movement. That's pretty badass.

[nyjastul69]

Kobolds are small and still have 30 feet movement. That's pretty badass.

Goblins also get 30' movement as a small creature.

[Gemini476]

Orc is a solid melee race, Goblin is a decent Small race for rogues or mounted characters. Kobold is the weakest LA +0 race in the game, unless you have dragonwrought available, then they're one of the strongest. Orc and Goblin are more "middle tier" than the PHB races, striking the right balance.

Those variant races don't make much difference, iirc. Aquatic Half-elf is a decent race for an aquatic game, and one of the half-orcs (desert?) gets free Endurance I think. Don't recall much else of note.
Hey, Dragonwrought isn't the only goody that Kobolds get. Most of the good ones come from this web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), but the variant races are pretty decent as well what with the lack of a con penalty and all.

But yeah, without Races of the Dragon and its enhancements Kobolds are pretty awful. Pun-Pun was a kobold for a reason, y'know - turning the weakest race into the strongest being was somewhat entertaining. In retrospect the Kobold is probably one of the strongest LA+0 races, though. (They certainly make the best Sorcerers!)

[Gwendol]

Half-orcs are ok for specific builds. Being orc blooded gives access to feats like headlong rush, which is really nice. Orcs do have quite the selection of feats.

[Venger]

Half-orcs are ok for specific builds. Being orc blooded gives access to feats like headlong rush, which is really nice. Orcs do have quite the selection of feats.

but in nearly all of those cases, you're probably better off just going orc in the first place.

[Gwendol]

but in nearly all of those cases, you're probably better off just going orc in the first place.

Yes, but I don't think that was the point of OP's question.

[Andion Isurand]

I agree with those who think that 3.5 half-orcs and half-elves could use a little revision (http://magerune.blogspot.com/2011/10/race-revisions-and-additions.html).

[ShurikVch]

Those variant races don't make much difference, iirc. Aquatic Half-elf is a decent race for an aquatic game, and one of the half-orcs (desert?) gets free Endurance I think. Don't recall much else of note. Scab-Lands Half-Orc (Sandstorm) gets Heat Endurance (http://dndtools.eu/feats/sandstorm--85/heat-endurance--1364/), Low-Light Vision (instead usual Darkvision), and can go without water for two days (48 hours)
Desert Half-Orc (UA) - +2 Con, -2 Int; Low-Light Vision (instead usual Darkvision), and Run (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#run)

Azeroth Half-Orc (Warcraft RPG) - +2 Con, -2 Wis; Low-Light Vision (instead usual Darkvision); +1 racial bonus to saves against fear effects; +2 racial bonus to Intimidate and Sense Motive checks (and this two skills are always class skills)

Tel-Amhothlan (Half-Orc/Half-Elf) (Kingdoms of Kalamar) - +2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha; Low-Light Vision (instead usual Darkvision); +1 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells and effects; +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search and Spot checks.

Half-Elves:
Half-Twilight Elf (Kingdoms of Kalamar) - Darkvision (instead usual Low-Light Vision)
Krynnish Half-Elf - both Low-Light Vision and Darkvision
Athasian Half-Elf - +2 Dex; +2 racial bonus to saving throws against enchantment illusions; Inborn Power (bonus power points regardless class: 3 pp at 1st level, 3 more at 5th, 5 at 10th, and 7 at 15th); LA +1 (:smallannoyed:)
Deepwyrm Half-Drow - (dragonblood); +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy Bluff and Gather Information checks; +2 racial bonus on saving throws; SLAs: 3/day—detect magic; 1/day—disguise self (CL = character's level)
Forestlord Half-Elf - (dragonblood); Hide is always class skill; Treewalk (Su): teleport through tree, up to 60 ft., 1/day per 5 HD; Forestlord Pact - forestlord half-elf who attempts to harm a green dragon loses her treewalk ability for 24 hours, and get on that time -1 penalty to attacks, CL/ML, and saves; +2 racial bonus to saving throws against enchantment; +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks; Favored Class: Sorcerer

[The Smallest]

Since most people here seem to be agreed Half-orcs and Half-elves are the worst Player's Handbook races, which out of the two is worse?

[Venger]

Since most people here seem to be agreed Half-orcs and Half-elves are the worst Player's Handbook races, which out of the two is worse?

purely on its own merit as a race and without consideration to feats and prcs later on, half-elf is definitely worse since it doesn't really... do anything. half-orc can still help out in some scenarios on its own, even if there aren't that many.

with lvls and feats in the mix, it's a little trickier, since they both have some neat prcs and fun racial sub lvls. personally, I think half-orc is still a better race with prcs/feats/etc in the list due to stuff like druid. while windwright captain is pretty awesome, it's rather heavily fiat-based regarding whether or not your DM will let you have a ship.