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View Full Version : "...why did you kill the elf queen?" "She was THERE!"



Magnus_Samma
2007-03-14, 11:46 PM
A discussion of sorts for DMs. I've had something of a problem with getting my PCs to treat NPCs like... anything but chunks of xp. To be fair, it can be difficult for a player to always know what NPCs are intended to be killed and what ones aren't, but a lot of PCs seem to tend towards violence as a default. If you have an NPC that absolutely shouldn't get killed, or at least not killed quite yet, what do you do to keep them from being fireballed to death?

Thus far I've found that the best deterrent is to make them intimidating. There isn't a single NPC in my game that my players haven't considered killing off, or worse, but the one they thought twice about had a bodyguard wearing gold dragonscale armor. They still want to kill the NPC that the bodyguard is looking after, but they're willing to wait until they can catch him by surprise and far away from his beefy dragon killing protector, which I counted as a relatively small victory.

kamikasei
2007-03-14, 11:52 PM
...Talk to them?

I mean, I assume you have already talked to them. They presumably are aware that any given NPC is not supposed to be killed unless it's hostile. If they still want to act like psychopaths... I guess you just need to adapt your playstyle to that.

Renegade Paladin
2007-03-15, 12:09 AM
Let them try to kill the elf queen. They'll all be pincushions before their strokes fall.

Lucky
2007-03-15, 12:18 AM
Don't just make them more intimidating. Make them stronger. Next time the PCs try to kill someone, have them end up dead. Then simply take it from an earlier point and they should have learned there lesson. If they haven't, lather, rinse, repeat. They'll get the message eventually.

Even killing just a commoner on the street should bring about intervention from guards.

Proven_Paradox
2007-03-15, 12:18 AM
If the PCs are seriously killing everything they come across, just remind them in no uncertain terms that thier actions have consequences. If they fail to heed this warning, a group of higher level, good-aligned adventurers tracks them down and end their murderous ways.

It might help to stop giving XP for everything they kill, especially if they had no reason to do so.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-03-15, 12:19 AM
Easy, but you'll need to rig up a specific encounter. Get them in a situation were they're pratically chomping at the bit to slay NPC's that really aren't worth their time. Like commoners or really low level thieves and such just to get them that juicy extra bit of experience to level up....then make the first one they attack the atypical "DM TPK". You pull it off right, that this random guy who looks like a nobody, was able to repel (NOT KILL OR EVEN SEEM LIKE WILLING TO KILL!) them and they'll be a lot more leery about random NPCs.

Dairun Cates
2007-03-15, 12:21 AM
Make SOME minor PC's secretly powerful for minor but legitamite reasons. Obviously, don't do this with all of them, but some. After the third time they escape barely with their lives, they'll be too paranoid to attack seemingly weak people.

Or... you could run them through ONE session of Paranoia. That's how I managed to get my players in line.

LotharBot
2007-03-15, 12:25 AM
Certain types of dragons like to walk around pretending to be from easily victimized demographics. "OK, so you're trying to mug the little old lady. Your attack roll was a 27? You miss. Roll for initiative. Looks like the old lady -- or should I say great wyrm bronze dragon -- is going first. Sucks to be you."

Jade_Tarem
2007-03-15, 12:28 AM
The "shoot first, sort it out later" mentality is common among new players or players who have started actual tabletop RPG's when most of their experience comes from, say, an online fantasy game (where the basic assumption is that if you can kill it, you should.) WoW comes to mind, and even DDO to a certain extent. It's a product of lazy thinking. The simplest and easiest fix is run in two steps.

1. Change starts with self, so run a checklist.

The PHB may come before the DMG, but when structuring your campaign it really needs to be the other way around. Make sure that all the following things are true.

1. Your world/plot is interesting. "You walk into a town. You see some stuff, like, a market," doesn't do anything for the players. Provide extra details. Make it memorable. It may slow down the campaign a hair, but the above is much worse than "You pass under the enormous arch of the front gate and find yourself right in the market place. Colorful banners fly and the din of noise is almost loud enough to make normal speech difficult. You see freestanding product displays as well as permanent structures serving as shops, each marked with the colors of the merchant troupe doing the selling at that spot. As you've never been to this town before you have no idea whether or not this kind of activity is normal or if there is some kind of special fair today. As you head deeper in, a sqat, ugly little gnomish woman shoves a chicken in your face..." This should extend everywhere. Make the world real, and they'll take more realistic and creative - or at least more in-character, actions.

2. Your NPCs have more than stats. Joe commoner doesn't need to have a 6 page backstory, but whenever the PC's actually interact with an NPC then it's good if there's at least one or two distinguishing characteristics. Maybe the guy they're asking for information in the dark alley has a scar over his forhead and a bad attitude vs. spellcasters? Not to insult the poster here on the boards that goes by the same name, but RandomNPC should never be the name of anyone, ever, unless it's a joke campaign.

3. There are consequences related to the actions of the Players. Actions have consequences that go beyond how much gold and xp they get. If they slay the queen of the elves (which should be impossible for all but the highest players anyway. You don't need to DM smite them - simply post enough guards around her to make it statistically impossible for her to be slain by level 7s), then they need to stand trial for it, and probably be sentenced to death as well. Charcters who just kill whoever they feel like pick up a bad reputation (rightfully so) and so NPC's will begin to react differently, from fleeing to hostility to forming little hunting bands to try to take the party down. As to not letting a plot critical NPC get fireballed, set up a situation where he can't be, if the player's aren't mature enough to take a reasonable quest hook. Alternatively, set up multiple hooks. They may kill one messanger out of raw spite, but his employers still want to talk to the players and simply use a sending scroll next time.

4. Your plotline is durable to the point where autistic monkeys couldn't mess it up. This is the big one. The plot should be able to recover from what the players do. Don't railroad it so that nothing they do matters - but recall that while the consequences for the PC's may be drastically different based on actions, the fate of entire world does not hinge on the actions of 4 level 6 adventurers.

5. You are prepared for the session. This is the other big one. I make no claims to perfection - I screwed this one up the other day and as a result the big, dramatic death of an imporant NPC looked lame and unconvincing. The rest of the session was abbreviated and I feel that it was a big letdown.

The second step is to check the players. Make sure the following are true.

1. The players understand what DnD is and want to play it. That sounds a little preachy, and DnD is very much what you make it to be, but World of Warcraft or Diablo II it ain't. There's supposed to be more to the game than dungeon crawling - especially if the DM wants it that way.

2. The players are playing characters, not character sheets. Do they have backstories? How about motivation? A name? These things help when preventing players from going berserk.

3. The players are having a good time. Sometimes the preferences of the players and yours differ. Your campaign may be a work of art, and the players especially good, and yet the campaign falls apart because what you see as intricate, they see as boring. Thus, the fireball to break the ice at the elven court banquet. Get this party rockin'! Whoo woot!

4. You are having a good time. Last but not least, if you've grown sick of your own campaign while you weren't looking, now is the time to take a break or stop the thing. You may not notice it happen. Take a careful look... is ruling this universe fun? If not, you know what to do.

So that's a very verbose way of answering your question, but if you have that covered then your players *shouldn't* go nuts on you too badly. On the other hand, nothing's perfect, hence the first #4.

Game on!

Assassinfox
2007-03-15, 12:32 AM
Buy the Ravenloft Player's Guide and start throwing Powers Checks at them until they lose their characters or learn their lessons.

Lemur
2007-03-15, 01:30 AM
If the killing of a character does not advance a specific goal, or provide a meaningful challenge, then don't give XP for it. In other words, not every NPC has to fight back. The idea that you can kill anyone and get XP for it is largely, imo, perpetuated by video game RPGs which are largely combat based, and depending on their design, may actually reward indiscriminate slaughter.

Think about it. Many people are going to go out of their way to avoid a fight. Only certain kinds of people, like adventurers or soldiers, face combat head on. If they PCs attack someone who doesn't want to fight, he'll run away. If the PCs continue to gun down a fleeing person who didn't want to fight in the first place, then their on their way to shifting to evil. If there's a paladin in the party who participates in this, he'd lose his paladin abilities.

Most importantly, don't grant any XP for such a situation. It wasn't a real fight, and there was no challange to the party. Unless the heroes had a specific quest to kill the person, they don't get any reward for it. You're not obligated to give out XP just because there's a chart in the DMG that shows what to give for each CR level.

Furthermore, make sure the world reacts properly to their actions. If they think that killing is the best solution to their problems all the time, they'll get a reputation for being rather ruthless, and people may be afraid to deal with them, and they may be denied access to towns or cities who have heard of their deeds. Of course, they may still get quest offers, but probably from seedier sources, who aren't necessarily the types you'd want to associate with.

I would advise against a suggestion made by another poster, which was to make random NPCs secretly powerful. This will mess with your players suspension of disbelief and only make them paranoid. However, if the players attack someone who's obviously powerful (like the elf queen) then don't hesitate to overwhelm them and either imprison them (if you're feeling nice) or just kill them off (if you're out of patience).

As an example, try imagining this scenario, where they catch a certain NPC away from his badass bodyguard.

1. Party attacks NPC
2. NPC runs away, screaming for help. Or, if the party hits him hard enough, he dies outright.
3. PCs get no experience for killing him, since it wasn't a real fight.

Now that should place a hint, but don't leave it at that:

4. Even if they caught him alone, with no one else around, people will realize NPC-man is dead. And he was last seen with the party...
5. Putting 2 and 2 together, the authorities (if NPC was a member of any given community) track down the PCs and arrest them (make sure they're strong enough to do so- like using a team of high level justiscars, clerics, and wizards, or whatever would work). Also, Gold Dragon Slayer may have something to say about losing his job. And maybe he likes letting his fists do the talking.
6. Now that their in custody, they don't have any of their cool equipment(!) so that should sting.
7. Interrogate the party separately, each by different people. This way, party rogue with +ridiculous to his Bluff check doesn't get to talk the party out of trouble, and party wizard can't just charm person everyone.
8. I'm sure you can think of the rest, if any more is necessary. Repeat said process each time the party decides an innocent NPC needs to die.

If this doesn't give them the incentive to save the stabbing for the people who really need it, then just say they start getting circumstance bonuses to Craft(their own grave) checks, if you get my drift.

Turcano
2007-03-15, 02:34 AM
The realistic way to deal with this problem is to have undue homicide have consequences, like the next-of-kin hiring a squad of assassins to track your PCs down, or use an angry police force or a vengeful army, or whatever is a serious threat and fluff-appropriate.

The unrealistic way is to make NPCs that you don't want dead impossible to kill. Make the PCs' next unwarranted target, say, a 40th-level wizard with three doses of Automatic Quicken Spell and three doses of Multispell. Then rewind the encounter and ask if they still want to attack him/her. Lather, rinse and repeat until your homicidal party takes the hint.

It's ultimately up to you to decide which course to take, but I will say that if this is a chronic problem, or if your PCs are much higher level than normal NPCs, the realistic option becomes a less feasible one.

Weasel of Doom
2007-03-15, 02:42 AM
Set a Miko clone on them or family mobsters or a very high level monk. if you do go monk route give them warning like a crowd gathering so they don't feel it's completely unfair.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-03-15, 02:45 AM
I think for your players to get the hint that killing everything in sight isn't such a good idea, make a dire consequence for their actions. Such as, they kill the queen, then every soldier in the kingdom will come looking for them and has permission to kill on sight. Or make a harmless looking NPC that they think is an easy kill, but in all actuality, it's a polymorphed red dragon. That will make them think twice. Or if you really wanted to freak them out, you could send an entire army (several hundred) of kobolds after them. Now that would be entertaining. (although a real pain to do).

Ravyn
2007-03-15, 02:47 AM
Realistic consequences and interesting NPCs. Start out simple--introduce them to a few NPCs that will do things for them, and make it very clear that these things do require the NPC to be breathing. So they start realizing NPCs can be worth their while. Then start upping the interesting factor on said NPCs. If they're realizing that there's a pretty good chance the guy in the street is someone who might be fun to keep a conversation with, it might help... I know a lot of NPCs I've seen have survived as long as they have because the group thinks they're more fun alive than dead. And of course, the whole "actions have consequences" thing.

...and if you're really desperate, giving them XP for not killing the random NPCs.

cupkeyk
2007-03-15, 02:50 AM
they are sociopaths and should be handled accordingly. Killed most likely by polite society. We run an evil campaign and we are frequently joined by sociopaths like that. We kill them.

Jannex
2007-03-15, 03:51 AM
When I run White Wolf games, I tend to employ the following rule: "If an NPC doesn't have a character sheet, you can't kill him." I don't know if you can get away with that in D&D, however, given how number-crunchy it is.

Renegade Paladin
2007-03-15, 04:03 AM
Or if you really wanted to freak them out, you could send an entire army (several hundred) of kobolds after them. Now that would be entertaining. (although a real pain to do).
Do this. And put Yakkity Sax on a loop in the background with whatever playback device might be handy. :smallbiggrin:

Zincorium
2007-03-15, 04:14 AM
When I run White Wolf games, I tend to employ the following rule: "If an NPC doesn't have a character sheet, you can't kill him." I don't know if you can get away with that in D&D, however, given how number-crunchy it is.

Very easily, although it often ruins the verisimilitude of the game. Invincible NPCs tend to be associated with strict rail roading, and generally players tend to expect the rest of the game to work they same way that they are forced to work, via numbers and traits. And really, it's unrealistic to make anyone completely and utterly unkillable, with the exception of dieties. It doesn't matter whether you are the president of a country, or the world's greatest bodybuilder, if a trained sniper gets a shot off, you are dead.

Thus, consequences and the respect for them are required for a game that is both realistic and doesn't get broken by rash actions. The PCs may technically kill the queen, but only if they can get past her bodyguards. The queen may only be an aristocrat, or she may be a high level wizard who's taken a page from BWL on how to destroy the opposition. The PCs don't and shouldn't know.

If they do manage to kill her, not only do you simply not reward them XP, but you have the entire kingdom do their best to kill them. No one likes a careless assassin, even the evil guys. You're a liability to people who don't mind killing innocents, and an affront and a threat to anyone else. Clerics won't resurrect your dead comrades, no new PCs will join the group, and see how fast WBL gets thrown out the window when no one will sell you items or buy yours and the guard impounds anything you've touched.

Lastly, the characters cannot all be stupid enough to not realize this, and hopefully your players aren't either.

Ikkitosen
2007-03-15, 04:31 AM
Take their stuff. Nothing peeves PCs (not even death) so much as losing their favourite sword/staff/whatever. The elf queen casts her high DC mass hold at the first sign of trouble and charges the PCs some items rather than take the trouble of imprisoning them. No rewinds required, just a proper punishment that your players will try a lot to avoid.

The Prince of Cats
2007-03-15, 04:34 AM
I never give XP for any NPC's murder. I also make use of the Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm) spell (actually, a ring of contingency or some other permanent item - a one-shot item which also acts as the focus item) when dealing with monarchs or paranoid nobles.

I was very lucky. My party got the message the first time they tried to betray someone and watched them teleport away, leaving the party alone with a room full of displeased guards and a locked door.

Jannex
2007-03-15, 04:35 AM
Very easily, although it often ruins the verisimilitude of the game. Invincible NPCs tend to be associated with strict rail roading, and generally players tend to expect the rest of the game to work they same way that they are forced to work, via numbers and traits. And really, it's unrealistic to make anyone completely and utterly unkillable, with the exception of dieties. It doesn't matter whether you are the president of a country, or the world's greatest bodybuilder, if a trained sniper gets a shot off, you are dead.

So, like I said, it's not something you can really get away with in D&D, which relies more heavily on mechanics and stats and numbers. When every monster and class is conveniently quantified in the books for your players' viewing pleasure, they have certain expectations about gameworld physics that they expect your NPCs to live up to.

However, in a system that doesn't have these elaborate expectations built in, where the NPCs serve the needs of the story, and there's all kinds of wonky supernatural stuff going on at any given moment, there's no real need to outline the stats for the Lasombra Archbishop of the city, who happens to look like a nine-year-old blond girl and is the grandsire of of one of the PCs. Further, there's no need to constrain myself by solidifying all her abilities in advance, when the plot might demand something else of her later. Anyone who "doesn't have a character sheet" is powerful enough not to need one.

factotum
2007-03-15, 05:10 AM
You could always put them into a situation where they need to talk to an NPC to get some vital information, then, when they get there, they find two people involved in a struggle. They have to decide which one to help, and obviously you make sure the most likely target is the wrong one. (It's a bit cliched, but it WILL make them think about who they should be attacking!).

Caelestion
2007-03-15, 05:22 AM
I always like to have a powerful Silver Dragon in polymorphed form lurking around in some quaint old village or other. Either that or a vicious Rakshasa or Erinyes plotting to steal souls or dominate the elders :)

Ethdred
2007-03-15, 06:33 AM
Are your NPCs good for anything other than XP? In other words, is that elf queen actually important to the players? Is she giving them information, access to items, whatever? Do the players have any connection to her or the kingdom?

Also, I agree with people about not needing character sheets for all NPCs. For example, I'm in one campaign where we've run into a black dragon, when we are nowhere near dragon slaying level. The DM has made it clear (though we'd guessed anyway) that at the moment the dragon has a CR of PLOT, so there is no point in taking it on. If we ever get high enough level to think about attacking it, then he will stat it out - but with no guarantee that it will be a level-appropriate encounter!

Caelestion
2007-03-15, 06:44 AM
I am also fortunate in that I designed an NPC paragon human Rogue 3 named Ultron. He's CR 21 and spends his time being a vigilante in Waterdeep. He's pretty much immune to combat (AC 72, DR 15/epic, Fast Heal 20) and many spells (SR 31) and has used his WBL to allow him to fly, breathe without air, protect himself against death effects etc. In true superhero style however, he is vulnerable to outsiders and gets less resistances against them.

Kantolin
2007-03-15, 07:24 AM
May I put another vote into talking to them before trying things like that?

Then, shortly thereafter, make it perfectly clear that this particular unit is interested and not at all a combat unit. Jade Tarem's checklist is genius - frequently the problem is that your world needs more spice. ^_^

Otherwise, if you do go with the 'strong enough to kill them' option, make a situation where there is an extremely elaborate slew of reasons why you wouldn't kill the person. Which on the nicer side, could be a wide variety of rewards the NPC is trying to give them, not all of it hard cash and the vast majority not on him (So they can't, say, kill him and take it). Or on the meaner side, go into great detail about the level of security present in the area, or make it very clear how combat-ready the woman they're speaking to is. Make it such that if they attack her, you can remind them of the security you just mentioned and give them a nice 'So are you sure?'

Swordguy
2007-03-15, 07:26 AM
Or... you could run them through ONE session of Paranoia. That's how I managed to get my players in line.

Jade_Tarem's brilliant post aside, THIS is full of win.

PnP Fan
2007-03-15, 07:50 AM
I would advise against the "hidden superpowered NPC bonks PCs on the head" method. It doesn't cure the problem, it just makes the players treat npcs with paranoia, and that gets in the way if you want them to actually trust some of your NPCs.
The better options include making your players realize that NPCs are worth having around. I didn't read the whole thread, so I'm sorry if any of this is repetitious. . .
1. Don't give them XP for killing anything. If defeating the Queen wasn't part of the adventure, then she doesn't deserve a Challenger Rating (note the word Challenge).
2. If they kill the Queen (or whatever), town guards/law/mercenary NPCs will eventually be sent to deal with them.
3. If they kill your plot hook NPC, then don't give them the plot hook. Call it an evening, explain that they've killed the plot hook, and that you need time to plan another adventure. I'd use this only in desperation, because it can also make you look like a 10 year old who wants to take his toys home. (no offense to the 10 yr olds out there, we've all had a friend like that at some point)
4. Don't make your NPC's look challenging, and don't give them magic items "just 'cause their 5th level and the DMG says. . .." You're just encouraging your players "mug an orc/human/npc" behavior if all of your NPCs are walking around with level appropriate equipment.
5. When they kill something "inappropriate", don't give it sparkle. No amazing decapitations with heads flying through the air, just death, and blood. Maybe even a crying widow(er) and children if opportunity presents itself. When they kill bad guys, make it a glorious event, whatever that exactly means to your players.
6. Then, seriously, if your players either don't get the hints, have a talk with them, and explain to them that YOU aren't having a good time. If these people are your friends (and their not just intentionally aggravating you), they'll listen. If, on the other hand, they seem to enjoy all of the negative attention, and the negative results (crying widows, etc. .), then you might consider playing with someone else, because they're clearly just getting a power trip out of bullying you're NPCs (and you, potentially).

Krellen
2007-03-15, 09:42 AM
I think the simplest solution presented by others is best: if they insist on acting like sociopaths, treat them like sociopaths. Bar them from society, deny them access to markets to buy or sell loot, and dispatch squads of guards - of increasing power - to stop them, should their rampages continue.

If they survive, at some point, they might start to identify with the "monsters", sparing orcs will slaughtering elves. At that point, you might have just gotten yourself a fun campaign.

Toliudar
2007-03-15, 09:57 AM
If this is the same campaign (with Bob #7, if I recall correctly) that you wrote about in an earlier thread, then these guys will just treat more powerful NPC's - up to the point of TPK - as a challenge. Not giving XP for plot-unrelated violence works...but only if there's a plot. I seem to recall that these guys are on their own powermongering-and-rampaging storyline.

Again, if you're having fun with the Grand Theft Auto style of play, and they are, then making the important NPC's more intimidating is perfect - it lets the PC's know that they shouldn't arbitrarily kill this person, but that with some preparations, it might be possible. In this scenario, there are no great wyrm dragons posing as homeless people - it's important, in the interests of not slowing down the game with paranoia, that things be more or less what they seem to be.

If, however, you want to inject a greater sense of consequences and caution into their world, then nobles with contingent teleports, wizards who are owed favours by solars, disjunction traps, etc...all become fair game. Again, from what I recall, your players aren't so much stupid as sociopathic.

Fixer
2007-03-15, 10:21 AM
A discussion of sorts for DMs. I've had something of a problem with getting my PCs to treat NPCs like... anything but chunks of xp. To be fair, it can be difficult for a player to always know what NPCs are intended to be killed and what ones aren't, but a lot of PCs seem to tend towards violence as a default. If you have an NPC that absolutely shouldn't get killed, or at least not killed quite yet, what do you do to keep them from being fireballed to death?
I never stop my PCs from engaging in their bloodlusts. (Albiet they are rare in my campaigns.)

If the PCs are simply TOO violent, they will attract the attention of various lawful-aligned beings who will see the PCs and villains and attempt to arrest/combat/maybe slay them to maintain order.

Some good encounters:
A wizard 6 levels higher than the PCs with polymorphed companions. One area-effect dispel magic on the companions and you have a perfect ambush.("You see an old woman dressed in finery sitting on a bench and feeding birds in the park. She greets you warmly before turning her attention back to the birds.")
Polymorphed gold or bronze dragons tend to take a dim view of those who just run around killing everything (golds largely in civilized places, bronzes in natural ones). Having one pose as a merchant for a bit should draw out the greedy ones. Waiting for the last moment to polymorph back to make CERTAIN the PCs are behaving evil as opposed to just opportunists would be likely to determine the level of lethal force to use.
Depending on character levels, try an avatar of a deity. Having a god or goddess admonish the PCs should severely impact their behavior. Cursing the whole group with a -4 on their attack rolls and damage until they make amends should work well too.

Remember, the PCs can be villains just as much as NPCs. Have the world react accordingly.

Gamebird
2007-03-15, 10:27 AM
I'll put my vote in on realism. Jade_Tarem, PnP Fan, Ethdred and a few others are the way I'd go.

A couple things that have helped encourage role play in my games:

1. Force the PCs to have a family, or at least resident, nearby NPCs who were involved in raising them. Make this an absolute requirement of playing. No loner orphans from far away. This also gives the DM people to flesh out who have a reason to talk to the PC, eat dinner with them and make small talk. They're also great for delivering plot hooks:
PC's Father: "Hey son, I'm glad I caught up to you. You know Farmer Giles from over the hill? He said he saw goblin tracks out in the north 40 yesterday. I was wondering if you and your friends might be free to check that out. Sure would be a shame is Farmer Giles lost some sheep to those goblins, or heavens forbid, if something happened to that baby daughter of his."

2. Introduce them to NPCs who aren't there to be killed. Have a child of 8 or 9 try to sell them fruit (or give it to them for free if they're heroes). Have the barmaid actually talk to them about their meal and drink selections. Have the bartender inquire about who made their armor and reminense about his short and ill-fated apprenticeship to one of the great smiths of the area. Have a beggar ask them for alms. Have a cleric approach them about conversion to the "true" faith of their god.

3. Use in-character talk. Make the players reply using in-character talk. This is wrong:
DM: While you're in town, a cleric of Pelor approaches you and asks you to convert to his faith.
PC: I worship Kord, so I tell him to hork off.
DM: Okay. After a long argument, he does.
PC: Long argument? Screw that. If he's still bugging me after 30 seconds I punch him out.

This is better:
DM: As you're going to the market to buy that new axe, a man in the raimants of a cleric of Pelor approaches you and makes a sign of blessing towards you. He says, "Greetings, traveller! I see you are garbed in fine armors and carrying great weapons of war. You must be a brave man to face such. My faith is the true faith of brave men of principle. You are a man of principle, are you not?"
PC: I worship Kord, so I tell him to hork off.
DM: Say it in character.
PC: What?
DM: You have to say it in character.
PC: Oh. Okay. "Hey doofus, I worship Kord, so hork off."
DM, as cleric: "Oh! Yes, Kord is a mighty god, I agree. But his violence is undirected and purposeless. Pelor is the god of compass-"
PC: He's annoying me. I punch him.

The second approach immerses the player more in the game world. It makes the subsequent trial for unprovoked assault a lot more meaningful. The guy the PC punched was a much more realistic person who didn't deserve what the PC did. It also opens up more of an opportunity for the PC to really listen to what the NPC says. Who knows? Maybe he will convert. Or maybe he'll talk to the cleric, get his name and come by later to buy a healing potion or some holy water from them.

4. Give the NPCs names, keep track of those names, and use recurring NPCs. "Recurring" isn't just for villains. If the beggar outside of town is an old, one-eyed human named Colin, then the next time they come into town, mention Colin AGAIN. Have him come say the same thing, "Copper for an old man?" Have him spit on the ground after the PCs scoff at him JUST LIKE HE DID BEFORE. You don't have to have the NPCs do the exact same thing every time, but have them be consistent. After two or three times of seeing Colin and giving him a few coins, the PCs might listen when he tells them, "Thankee good sirrah, you're so kind, may Pelor bless you this day and every one. But I have someten might interes' you - they's a wererat in the sewers near Wall Street. Crezy Bess saw it last night and you and I know dare was a full moon lass night. Thought you might want to know, as you got such good swords and that friend there with the robes of a wizardy man. Thought you might want to know."

5. Maintain realism. Others have addressed that in a lot of detail, but the essence is that if the PCs kill an NPC, have the normal legal process kick into gear. Also, don't use the 'powerful hidden NPC' trick. It's stupid. Better is to let the PCs kill the little old lady, queen of the elves (if you've decided the queen is killable, she's there and the guards or other protections weren't fast enough), etc. and then send the expected lawmen after them. And do NOT send a CR appropriate challenge after them unless there's a damn good reason why the NPCs underestimate the PCs. Send guys twice the PC's level, fully equipped and buffed, and have them surprise the PCs. Have them use lethal force as soon as the PCs do. After all, Speak with Dead works and if the PCs turn out to be innocent, so does Raise Dead. If this causes a TPK, then so be it.

Caelestion
2007-03-15, 10:32 AM
Well, the "hidden NPC" thing can be stupid, certainly, but at least when (if!) my players find out that someone they know is secretly a silver dragon, they want to hunt him down in the old-fashioned manner, which is always good fun!

Yakk
2007-03-15, 10:55 AM
So they are in the throne tree of the elf queen.

The players start talking about killing the elf queen. First, you impose "what you say, your character says, unless you clearly touch the table with one finger. In that case, you are asking a question of the DM or describing what you are doing physically."

Next, describe the room. Near the elf queen there is an advisor beside her, and 5 elf guards with swords and bows of some kind, 5 elf guards with longspears.

Near the door there are two guards in brightly coloured clothing whose job seems to involve opening and closing the door.

They all seem detatched, but nobody seems particularly threatening.

If players start asking questions about how well set up the room is, have the NPCs roll opposed sense motive checks against any skill the player deems reasonable.

If they actually attack, we are talking the queen of a mighty race of wizards. The fireball shoots forward and ... stops part way. The guards lower their spears, the archers fire arrows in a blink of an eye, and everyone near the queen blinks out of existence (invisibility, with the queen being teleported).

Then the beatdown commences. About half of the players should be killed and their corpses destroyed: the rest stripped of all of their goods, a geas layed upon them, and they are sent packing, naked.

...

Don't give XP for killing things. Give XP for completing tasks. The rate should be the same, and the difficulty of the task should determine the XP reward.

...

Inspired by this thread:
Common Sense (Wis) [skill] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37570)

Illiterate Scribe
2007-03-15, 01:30 PM
If you're playing in Faerun, remember that everybody, and I mean everybody, that you meet is an epic-level character.

*I attack the annoying merchant*
*Elminster, a solar, and 4 Harper Cosmic Descryers teleport in. They cast a timestop, and utterly destroy you with Epic Magic before you get in a second slice.*

Turcano
2007-03-15, 01:46 PM
If you're playing in Faerun, remember that everybody, and I mean everybody, that you meet is an epic-level character.

*I attack the annoying merchant*
*Elminster, a solar, and 4 Harper Cosmic Descryers teleport in. They cast a timestop, and utterly destroy you with Epic Magic before you get in a second slice.*

Yeah, Ed Greenwood is apparently a fan of the unrealistic method. It really should only be used as a last resort though, when you need to make it mind-blowingly obvious that the NPC in question is a clue-bat.

TOAOMT
2007-03-15, 05:21 PM
I had a player who decided that the NPCs who came to pick up the package they had been transporting (which they had by now come to believe contained ill-got gains or human contraband) might be farmers. The decapitation of a dirt farmer from behind later, the player is defending his actions as supposedly being honorable (It wasn't D&D, but his character was supposed to be a Samurai and was very Paladin-esque). The other farmer fled, and as far as he knew he had gotten away with it. However, I punished the out of character behavior by having the other farmer after much deliberation report it to the police. Though the game dissipated after that, they were going to be greeted on exit of the dungeon by the entire police guard of the city.

dorshe1
2007-03-15, 05:36 PM
I actually subtract experience awards for actions if they go against their alignment. Most of the time they don't really know about it, but I remember one time after my party had a huge battle and they expected to get a huge chunk of EXP the next week and they only got about a third of it because they had killed someone who obviously didn't deserve to die.

One of my previous DMs used another adventuring party and they beat the snot out of us because we attacked them before we tried to talk to them.

Of course, one of my favorite games was a Rokugan game, and we NEVER attacked NPCs. No matter what level we were we were the lowest leveled characters around. This included the servant that we had with us since first level, who we discovered was a 13th lvl Samurai who had been disgraced and decided to open an inn instead of be a ronin.

You'd think it would be frustrating, but it actually was comical.

Ethdred
2007-03-15, 06:48 PM
So they are in the throne tree of the elf queen.

The players start talking about killing the elf queen. First, you impose "what you say, your character says, unless you clearly touch the table with one finger. In that case, you are asking a question of the DM or describing what you are doing physically."


Jeez, you're not my tabletop DM in disguise are you? I have actually written out a piece of paper with IC on it, and unless I am holding that up, I am not talking in character. This was after I said 'Why don't we open the trapdoor?' and he started running the trap encounter that would occur after the door was opened, and I had to carefully point out to him that I didn't actually say that my character opened the door, I was just suggesting that we did. Still didn't stop the swine from changing my alignment because of something else I said OOC.

The Valiant Turtle
2007-03-15, 07:10 PM
I definitely agree with not giving xp for random slaghter. You get xp for overcoming obstacles, not random killing. If they have broken the law, have them arrested by an obviously superior force. If they kill any of them, they get the death sentence, if not, a fine that they can just barely pay off with all their magic items.

Lord Tataraus
2007-03-15, 07:44 PM
I would suggest you use the powerful NPC method, but try to be part of the plot. For example, one of my players decided he did not like the king of an underground city and proceeded to attack him, unfortunately he found out that the King was a the lesser deity of caves and the underdark. This was preplanned as he was going to reveal himself in another way, but I ran with it and they became cursed (can't exit to the surface world through magic, -2 attack and damage while underground etc.) In another instance the killed a man on a whim and then got thrown into a massive adventure after finding out later that he was an undercover agent for the nation's most powerful noble house which was comprised of the best martial warriors in the world (i.e. Swordsages & Warblades) who began to hunt them down. It was still fun, but they learned to be more wary about killing NPCs after barely escaping with their lives and captured and robbed a number of times.

Jamie Fameflame
2007-03-15, 07:45 PM
If just one of the PCs are reasonable, or you are planning on introducing a new player in the group, make a deal with him, where he will act in a foolish manner (eg. attacking said Elf Queen), only to have his magically paralyzed chums watch him getting painfully and humiliatingly killed.
Make a wizard in the court tooled up with all the right spells, and get the player to die horribly. Not unlike a rigged boxing match ;)

Then have him leave the session, as he has to roll up a new character...
No-one is unhappy that they lost a character, and the players have learned a lesson.

It works even better if said soon-to-die-character is loaded with good stats, etc.

PnP Fan
2007-03-15, 11:54 PM
Oh yeah, something I forgot to mention. ...
This sort of bloodthirsty behavior smacks of either CE, CN, or NE alignments, and an INT/WIS score of around 3-5.
You can't change their attributes, but you certainly can enforce an alignment shift. If they aren't already CE/CN/NE, then surely they alignment shift will cause some of them to lose class abilities and get their attention. If they are already in the Evil camp, well. . . shame on you for not telling them that you didn't want to run an Evil Campaign to start with. ;-)
If I didn't say it before, I really encourage you to stay away from the "hidden powerful NPC". I'm with Gamebird and several others on this one. If your players were behaving like reasonable people, whipping one out might work once. Since they aren't behaving like reasonable people, they are likely to take it as you "stopping their fun" or "taking revenge" on them for attacking your "favorite NPC". At that stage things become personal, and antagonistic, and not fun. I think that the rest of the suggestions that I've offered up are all within the GM's normal options to push the story forward. I really wouldn't respond to their bullying with counter bully behavior (for one thing, it may not be bullying, it may simply be childish behavior).

Magnus_Samma
2007-03-16, 12:35 AM
A lot of really interesting tips here.

What's really interesting is that instead of a discussion between DMs who wanted to talk shop about a complaint I've heard a lot of DMs having, I've mostly gotten a series of lectures from people who assume I can't control my own game. :P Thanks for all the advice though, really. I'm sure it'll come in handy.

For the record, the elf queen situation was entirely hypothetical. Even my PCs aren't -that- dense.

Sir_Banjo
2007-03-16, 12:47 AM
Talk to them about it.

Have the NPCs approach the PCs in as non-threatening manner as possible.
If the PCs kill them for loot, put bounty hunters on their trail. Make them live like hunted animals, like real bandits, forced to live in the darkest forest and deepest caves. If they're mid-level, they'll have their reputation preceed them. It's their game too, so the PCs are free to do what they like, but that doesn't mean that there isn't consequences to their actions.

LotharBot
2007-03-16, 01:28 AM
I have to strongly disagree with those who are telling you NOT to use powerful NPC's.

Do what it takes -- which, of course, depends on the group.

That whole "silver dragons like to pretend to be little old ladies" thing in the monster manual? That's there to provide you, the DM, with a response for a group that only listens to force. You can, of course, use painfully large squads of bounty hunters or town guards, as well.

I'd call that a bit of a last resort, though. You want to talk to your players first. Combine that with "you don't get XP for non-challenges" and "you don't get hired as adventurers if you get a bad rep" and that should be adequate.

But if it's not, and your players decide they're going to kill NPC's just for the sake of killing NPC's, have them face a dragon that's a LOT of CR's higher than they can handle, and make sure to leave them crippled and take some of their stuff, and put a geas on them. If the dragon accidentally kills a few of them... have them rez'ed (losing one level) and have the dragon sell their best lewt to cover the cost of the spells.

Wizzardman
2007-03-16, 01:32 AM
A lot of really interesting tips here.

What's really interesting is that instead of a discussion between DMs who wanted to talk shop about a complaint I've heard a lot of DMs having, I've mostly gotten a series of lectures from people who assume I can't control my own game. :P Thanks for all the advice though, really. I'm sure it'll come in handy.

For the record, the elf queen situation was entirely hypothetical. Even my PCs aren't -that- dense.
Yeah, the "thou art a n00b DM" response is fairly common on these forums--especially to questions like yours, which revolves around a problem fairly common to new DMs.

That said, I like the "make the NPCs interesting" approach--I've managed weed out most of the xp-killings by using this method. This works especially well with unimportant NPCs, especially if you can make them funny. This can also turn an unimportant NPC into an important one, or possibly even a reoccurring plot device.

For example, I've pretty much trademarked one such NPC--the Cheeseman, who started out as a off-kilter innkeeper with a generous attitude and a cheese obsession, and has been transformed into a relatively high-level wizard who randomly pops up in just about every game I run. He's apparently become fairly popular with my players; in the Cheeseman's first appearance, one of the players was practically begging me to tell him whether the Cheeseman was a real innkeeper or not--and seriously hoping that he was something more exciting then that.

...Of course, said PC then brained the Cheeseman with a hunk of his own parmesan, so I can't promise that they'll tone down the violence much.

Jade_Tarem
2007-03-16, 02:29 AM
What's really interesting is that instead of a discussion between DMs who wanted to talk shop about a complaint I've heard a lot of DMs having, I've mostly gotten a series of lectures from people who assume I can't control my own game. :P Thanks for all the advice though, really. I'm sure it'll come in handy.

Well, to be fair, if you're asking for advice on how to run a fantasy simulation in which you are God from an internet forum consisting entirely of people who you do not know, then chances are that you don't have the game completely under control.

Of course, a game is never completely under control because the title of PC, when conferred upon a person, establishes a direct telepathic connection with alien pranksters from another solar system. Using their advanced technology, they divine the plot of the DM's campaign and occasionally beam a message to one or more players in the DM's group: "Screw up the plot. Do it NOW." And then the players have no choice, they have to kill the elf queen. This also explains the vast majority of the content on YouTube and the existance of internet forums that discuss DnD. Put away your tinfoil - they thought of that too.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly do you label a lecture? I looked over the whole thread and didn't see anything too belittling. Bear in mind that everyone thinks differently about a problem. What sounds like a lecture may just be people who are unsure of precisely how to handle the problem out of the context of the entire game, and give general advice just in case more factors exist than the attitudes of the players. Those with shorter answers are assuming that the problem lies directly with the players - which may be true, and gives their posts the advantage of brevity. Also bear in mind that posting like this only provides 30% of the communication experience - things like body language and tone are lost, so meanings can be distorted and what was meant to sound cheerful could just sound patronizing, and vice versa.

kamikasei
2007-03-16, 04:27 AM
What's really interesting is that instead of a discussion between DMs who wanted to talk shop about a complaint I've heard a lot of DMs having, I've mostly gotten a series of lectures from people who assume I can't control my own game. :P Thanks for all the advice though, really. I'm sure it'll come in handy.

For the record, the elf queen situation was entirely hypothetical. Even my PCs aren't -that- dense.

Rereads original post

Well, you're not terribly specific about what problem you're having. What sort of NPCs are they killing? How do these NPCs act? Why are they killing them? Is it that the players are killing people who pose no threat, are not hostile, and who they have no reason to consider evil? Or is it just that they occasionally fight and kill enemies who clearly are enemies but who you want them to treat as too tough to attack?

More information would be very helpful. If the players aren't actually acting like total psychopaths, but you're throwing some CR-inappropriate enemies at them as non-combat encounters and then the players attacking anyway, that's a very different situation to what most posters here are justly assuming.

Dausuul
2007-03-16, 01:57 PM
A discussion of sorts for DMs. I've had something of a problem with getting my PCs to treat NPCs like... anything but chunks of xp. To be fair, it can be difficult for a player to always know what NPCs are intended to be killed and what ones aren't, but a lot of PCs seem to tend towards violence as a default. If you have an NPC that absolutely shouldn't get killed, or at least not killed quite yet, what do you do to keep them from being fireballed to death?

Thus far I've found that the best deterrent is to make them intimidating. There isn't a single NPC in my game that my players haven't considered killing off, or worse, but the one they thought twice about had a bodyguard wearing gold dragonscale armor. They still want to kill the NPC that the bodyguard is looking after, but they're willing to wait until they can catch him by surprise and far away from his beefy dragon killing protector, which I counted as a relatively small victory.

This is one of the many reasons why I give a flat XP award at the end of each session and don't base it on how many monsters the party killed.

If I have NPCs that absolutely must not die due to plot reasons, I just make them insanely tough, like 15th-20th level or so; or provide them with some means of self-resurrection, like the ever-popular lich's phylactery.

For other NPCs, I let the players kill them, but provide appropriate consequences. If the players off an NPC with a critical bit of information, well, they now have to spend hunt down that bit of information elsewhere, a process that involves very little time killing things and a lot of time asking questions. If they kill an NPC with powerful friends, the powerful friends are now out to get them. Some NPCs may have the time-honored power to curse those who kill them unjustly. Et cetera.

PnP Fan
2007-03-16, 02:53 PM
Magnus,
I honestly took your post at face value, where you say that there isn't an NPC that they haven't considered killing. Literally, this means that every farmer, elf queen, merchant, barkeep, tavern attendee, serving wench, etc. . . they've killed or tried to kill. How do I not take that as some one who's completely lost control of their game? It sounds as if they've gone on a murdering spree.
If my posts sound preachy, I apologize. It is certainly not my intent to preach. However, I try to keep the tone of my posts as neutral/friendly as possible. Plus, I never have any idea of the age of person I'm talking to, so I assume the possibility that I'm posting to a 10 year old, and try to keep things family friendly, without talking "down".
Concur with Jade's assessment of non-verbal communication cues (tone, body language, etc...)
And last, your OP was voiced with the perspective of someone who is having a problem. It was all written in first person, "I have a problem. ..". What else are we supposed to assume other than that YOU are having a problem?
If you want to open up a different style of discussion, you should phrase your OP differently. Perhaps what you might have said is "hey guys, I've heard lots of folks have problems with X! What do you guys do to stop X? I like to. blah. .." Then we would all know that YOU aren't having problems, you're just looking for other solutions to a problem that exists.
End Lecture.