Iconic Races you're surprized aren't extinct yet. [Archive]

Marlowe

2014-10-05, 12:58 PM

This is not for arguing about fluff, interpretation of fluff, or personal headcanon. This is for fun.

My nomination:

The Githyanki!
http://images.wikia.com/forgottenrealms/images/d/d2/Githyanki.jpg

The case:

-For +2 LA;
-- Githyanki get darkvision (OK. Oddly useless in their home plane, but OK.)
-- SR 5+character level (given the LA, that's almost nuisance value)
-- Some psionic abilities which are fairly nifty. (but not very useful until about ECL 8 or so)
--+2 DEX and CON, -2 WIS. (Gosh, what might Githyanki want Wisdom for...:smalleek:)
-- Generally a fairly unimpressive package for +2 LA

-Githyanki are mortal enemies with a highly organized and intelligent, vindictive and predatory monster race with psionic abilities, and yet they have a Wisdom penalty and favour a class with a weak will save.

-Githyanki live on the Astral Plane. This means they are dependent on magic or raiding for even the most basic natural resources. Also, individual movement on the plane is based on INT, in which Githyanki have no bonus.

-Githyanki are culturally obsessed with war and conquest, meaning everywhere they go they make enemies.

-Githyanki are few in number, with their only city of any size having a listed pop of 100,000. Given they love their swords more than their Mates, this is unlikely to change.

-Githyanki are ruled by an epic Lich Wizard, who enforces an atheistic cult of personality with a strict no-competition clause, which boils down to:
--aforesaid Lich-queen has any Githyanki who looks like getting over level 16 bumped off and,
--Aforesaid Lich-queen forbids any Githyanki from being Clerics. If they have other sorts of Divine casters, it seems they are vanishingly rare.

That's right folks! Githyanki have NO WAY of employing Divine magic, AND have a grand total of one individual in the entire multiverse capable of casting 9th level spells.

So, the summing up:
-level by level, fairly weak individually.
-are enemies with pretty much anyone.
-Poorly equipped racial and culturally to deal with the obvious enemies.
-barred from some of the most powerful classes in the game.
-Get murdered before they get to high level.
-Need to visit other planes just to get firewood.
-On the basis of some artwork, are constitutionally unable to make armour that covers the torso.

So, what race can you nominate that's a better Darwin contender?

Jeff the Green

2014-10-05, 01:26 PM

Dark Dwarves. With an average Charisma score of 6, how do they even stand each other's presence long enough to reproduce?

Extra Anchovies

2014-10-05, 01:45 PM

Kender :smallfurious:

Necroticplague

2014-10-05, 03:08 PM

Honest Tiefling

2014-10-05, 03:14 PM

Another vote for drow, for the aforementioned reasons AND because the women being more likely to be offed and have a -2 to constitution. That combo just doesn't make it seem likely they could survive childbirth enough times to make enough children to replace the numbers killed every day. Heck, I have to wonder what a drow midwife would be like...

malonkey1

2014-10-05, 03:44 PM

Dark Dwarves. With an average Charisma score of 6, how do they even stand each other's presence long enough to reproduce?

"Nae lissen 'ere. I dun' like ye, and ye dun' like me, but if we don't haff a kid at some poin', Reorx'll be right sore."

Honest Tiefling

2014-10-05, 03:50 PM

Not to mention copious amounts of beer. I can see dark dwarves pouring out of the caverns of the underdark simply to loot hops, oysters and chocolate.

Esprit15

2014-10-05, 04:12 PM

Honest Tiefling

2014-10-05, 04:13 PM

I think in a world where dragons and humans can mate with anything, it should be assumed (and hoped) that magic trumps biology and physics.

JusticeZero

2014-10-05, 04:15 PM

Elf. Warlike with an incredibly slow rate of reproduction. Drow is worse, but just.. elf.

Spore

2014-10-05, 04:16 PM

Fax Celestis

2014-10-05, 04:21 PM

Thri-Kreen have the charisma problem as well.

Yeah, and they only live like 20 years anyway.

Honest Tiefling

2014-10-05, 04:28 PM

I would assume an insectoid race would not be as socially minded as others, but I could be wrong. Also, who needs charisma when you have salt and pepper? "Ladies, I am delicious!" Through half-elves are proof that hybridization does not always result in greatness. They are basically crap humans that everyone hates once the hangover that resulted in their conception is over.

There is also the case that Kender and most races with a wisdom penalty would not do well. I can just imagine a necromancer marching over there dangling keys in order to entice them over to get free materials.

Extra Anchovies

2014-10-05, 04:34 PM

I would assume an insectoid race would not be as socially minded as others, but I could be wrong. Also, who needs charisma when you have salt and pepper? "Ladies, I am delicious!"

:smallbiggrin:

Thri-Kreen are, by fluff, nomadic hunter-gatherers, so they may actually see reproduction as a purely practical, rather than emotional, endeavor; they reproduce only to keep the species alive. I also assume that they would have a fairly collectivist attitude towards raising young, because they're A) nomadic hunter-gatherers and B) insects.

Awesome avatar, by the way.

Sam K

2014-10-05, 04:37 PM

Regular elves. In an average setting there are things that could kill a standard commoner in less than a round. And elves have a century to mature into SOMETHING useful. Until that they have plenty of time being offed by various dangers. Everything is stacked against this race. Low constitution, relatively short fertility cycles. Long pregnancy, long childhood, dangerous environment.

Agreed about elves. Con penalty and long life cycles do not make for great odds of survival. I actually considered how they might survive as a race, and the best thing I could come up with is that because the elves take so long to mature, their schooling is very good (they also sleep less - lots of time to learn stuff). Essentially, there are no elven commoners (atleast not if they are raised among elves), they all have "real" classes. They sure have enough time to pick them up! Combine this with the fact that even elves who aren't adventurers may eventually get some experience. A human who lives an active (but not remarkable) life may earn a couple of levels through their lifetime. They may not overcome many encounters, but they may rack up some bonus exp over the years. For humans, this doesn't amount to much because by the time the exp starts showing, you're ready for retirement. Elves, however, keep going. A human ex watchman at venerable age, who caught a few criminals in his day, may have reached 3rd or 4th level in his 50 or so year career. The elf with the same experience is just getting started!

What this would mean in the long run is that while elves have poor odds to survive to adulthood on their own, their society is much higher level than other races. This lets them deal with many dangers. A human village may have had a succession of level 1 clerics attending to their spiritual needs; an elven village may have a 5th level cleric, simply because the original cleric didn't get old and die. And once you have access to a 5th level cleric (or higher), surviving childhood gets alot easier, even for a race with a con penalty.

Gnome Alone

2014-10-05, 04:41 PM

Yeah, and they only live like 20 years anyway.

Oh man, Thri-Keen are essentially heavily-armed drunken frat boys, aren't they?

Sith_Happens

2014-10-05, 04:41 PM

Kender :smallfurious:

Thread over, the correct answer has been given.

Esprit15

2014-10-05, 04:42 PM

I would think insectoid races would be very social within their own tribes, at least. After all, we do get the phrase hive mind from insects. At the same time, it could easily be that many of their methods of communicating with each other the finer details of things (such as pheromones) are not detected by other races. I guess one issue is that in so many ways, DnD takes humans as the default, and in areas like charisma (which can account for so many things from looks to diplomatic ability to simple force of presence), that creates a lot of confusion.

VoxRationis

2014-10-05, 04:44 PM

I'd say that the elves are just very K-selected. Lots of K-selected species are out there; they just depend on stability in their environmental conditions. That's not necessarily true of a campaign setting's present, but maybe that's why elves are declining in so many campaign settings.

I've got Mind Flayers. A creature that needs to consume the brains of sentient creatures to survive and reproduce gets into major conflicts with every kind of the creatures most capable of organizing against them. Sentient creatures generally have lower reproduction rates than most animals, so it takes a very large breeding population of prey to support a relatively low population of mind flayers. They can't "domesticate" as efficiently as anyone else, because while breeding a slower, fatter cow leads to easier handling of the cow, breeding already-sentient creatures for larger, better brains is asking for trouble; a cow's wild relatives are also less likely to organize attempts to free the cow. (Consumption of brain material is also a good way to spread prion diseases, incidentally, so depending on the DM, they've also got that against them.) Their main magical techniques can be blocked by whole creatures types easily, not to mention a large number of spells, as well as suffering from a binary complete success/complete failure state. Mind flayers are also so horrific that they are practically a beacon for questing heroes and champions of all stripes—even a Chaotic Evil drow matriarch is going to recognize that a mind flayer community nearby is a threat best nipped in the bud, and send her best champions, loaded up with scrolls of mind blank, to take them down. Basically, mind flayers suffer from the "Game of Thrones" outcome syndrome: They win or they die. They can completely dominate a setting, which tends to ruin the setting for any other kind of adventure or storyline, or they're going to be stamped out by everyone.

Honest Tiefling

2014-10-05, 04:52 PM

Awesome avatar, by the way.

Thanks! Love the Lichlord thing you have going on as well. The idea that reproduction is more of a survival thing would make for interesting PCs that have little love for their own families, but seek to work together for practical reasons. (As well as be a good hook for adventuring...)

I would think insectoid races would be very social within their own tribes, at least. After all, we do get the phrase hive mind from insects. At the same time, it could easily be that many of their methods of communicating with each other the finer details of things (such as pheromones) are not detected by other races.

Mantises, I believe, tend to be loners given that females will eat males if they try to engage in post-coital cuddling. Maybe giant psionic ones shouldn't be held to the same standard, but I assumed they were terribly social.

As for mind-flayers...They need a race that can be intelligent and never pose a threat to them, right? So what if their cattle were kender? Kender are bright, sure, but easily distractable. Heck, given the way that Kendermore is built, in that it is a giant maze, wouldn't they be a perfect race to isolate in a confusing, but distracting city for whenever one of the mindflayers get the munchies?

Esprit15

2014-10-05, 05:08 PM

As for mind-flayers...They need a race that can be intelligent and never pose a threat to them, right? So what if their cattle were kender? Kender are bright, sure, but easily distractable. Heck, given the way that Kendermore is built, in that it is a giant maze, wouldn't they be a perfect race to isolate in a confusing, but distracting city for whenever one of the mindflayers get the munchies?

Also known as "Yet another reason for Kender to die."

On the other hand, this works as a good explanation of why they are still around: Kender are the race that mindflayers bred up to be the perfect prey. They're still quite intelligent, but easily manipulated.

Fax Celestis

2014-10-05, 05:10 PM

Oh man, Thri-Keen are essentially heavily-armed drunken frat boys, aren't they?

"Armed". Dat pun.

Psyren

2014-10-05, 05:12 PM

Kender :smallfurious:

You can thank literal divine intervention for that one.

Marlowe

2014-10-05, 05:23 PM

As for mind-flayers...They need a race that can be intelligent and never pose a threat to them, right? So what if their cattle were kender? Kender are bright, sure, but easily distractable. Heck, given the way that Kendermore is built, in that it is a giant maze, wouldn't they be a perfect race to isolate in a confusing, but distracting city for whenever one of the mindflayers get the munchies?

Mindflayers are picky. They won't mess with Gloamings because they don't like the taste, and Gloamings are one of those all-adventurer races that are just guaranteed to cause interesting times whereever they go.

Much as I'd love to see the Elfquest knock-offs fed to the Minithulhus, I imagine the latter would turn their tendrils up just to be difficult.

TechnOkami

2014-10-05, 05:24 PM

Shardminds from D&D 4.0

I actually really like the Shardminds, and didn't really understand why they got so much flack from the community (I think it's because of the violently poor reaction to D&D 4.0, even if I enjoyed it, despite it being soooooooo slooooooow in the lategame).

Anywho, Shardminds. In the 4.0 'verse there's this big crystalline wall that's a barrier between Eldritch Horror Fun-town and Normal Reality. Cthulhu & Co. Broke the wall, and the shards fell to the material plane, became sentient, and took humanoid shape. I think that's badass.

As for why they should be "extinct", I'm really surprised that some powerful Psion Wizard Thing hasn't turned the wall into a Shardmind Magnet and reassemble them into the wall, and then reinforce it with Celestial Gorilla Glue slathered over Divine Duct Tape or something of the like.

StreamOfTheSky

2014-10-05, 05:29 PM

The ultimate correct answer is Kender, though I also agree with Githyanki and Drow. I swear, other races don't bother killing the lich queen because she's far more of a nerf on their entire race than a threat to other people. And drow....their own god has to intervene at times to force them to stop killing and torturing each other lest they go extinct.

Agreed about elves. Con penalty and long life cycles do not make for great odds of survival. I actually considered how they might survive as a race, and the best thing I could come up with is that because the elves take so long to mature, their schooling is very good (they also sleep less - lots of time to learn stuff). Essentially, there are no elven commoners (atleast not if they are raised among elves), they all have "real" classes. They sure have enough time to pick them up! Combine this with the fact that even elves who aren't adventurers may eventually get some experience. A human who lives an active (but not remarkable) life may earn a couple of levels through their lifetime. They may not overcome many encounters, but they may rack up some bonus exp over the years. For humans, this doesn't amount to much because by the time the exp starts showing, you're ready for retirement. Elves, however, keep going. A human ex watchman at venerable age, who caught a few criminals in his day, may have reached 3rd or 4th level in his 50 or so year career. The elf with the same experience is just getting started!

What this would mean in the long run is that while elves have poor odds to survive to adulthood on their own, their society is much higher level than other races. This lets them deal with many dangers. A human village may have had a succession of level 1 clerics attending to their spiritual needs; an elven village may have a 5th level cleric, simply because the original cleric didn't get old and die. And once you have access to a 5th level cleric (or higher), surviving childhood gets alot easier, even for a race with a con penalty.

While I agree with all of this and Elves' lifecycle and gestation periods make it inherently tough for them to live on as a race....they are *not* warlike, so much as having a few races that viciously hate them. RotW makes it pretty clear that for the very reasons listed, elves avoid war and when they must fight, use magic and skirmishing tactics as much as possible to limit their own casualties. A loss of tens of thousands would be a serious setback for human population for several years, for elves it would be utterly catastrophic. And thus they're more likely to run away, pay bribes, use (magical) defense systems, or use other races as pawns to fight their battles for them (which of course endears them ever less to the other major races).

I say all this as a prelude to nominating dwarves. While they mature faster than elves and are hardy, they still have a long life cycle and unlike elves the dwarves do explicitly love the thrill of battle, especially up close and personal melee combat, where casualties are always the highest. And their major enemies -- orcs, hobgoblins, bugbears -- are all equally powerful at melee combat but far more numerous and with vastly quicker rates of maturation. I can't imagine any setting featuring dwarves having long been at war with their traditional enemies that they wouldn't be suffering from a severe population decline and facing inevitable extinction down the road.

Honest Tiefling

2014-10-05, 05:43 PM

Anywho, Shardminds. In the 4.0 'verse there's this big crystalline wall that's a barrier between Eldritch Horror Fun-town and Normal Reality. Cthulhu & Co. Broke the wall, and the shards fell to the material plane, became sentient, and took humanoid shape. I think that's badass.

I don't mind that fluff either, but I gotta ask...Uh. How do they reproduce exactly...? I imagine any race with adventurers is going to need to replace people, after all, where do near identical siblings come from? Also, I cannot imagine any being that started off having contact with the Far Plane/Eldritch Horrorland being mentally stable AT ALL.

Mindflayers are picky. [snip]

Much as I'd love to see the Elfquest knock-offs fed to the Minithulhus, I imagine the latter would turn their tendrils up just to be difficult.

Any race that has such demanding biological needs and so many super-geniuses does not deserve to live if they cannot figure out a way to make such an annoying race delicious in my opinion.

Psyren

2014-10-05, 05:51 PM

I don't mind that fluff either, but I gotta ask...Uh. How do they reproduce exactly...? I imagine any race with adventurers is going to need to replace people, after all, where do near identical siblings come from? Also, I cannot imagine any being that started off having contact with the Far Plane/Eldritch Horrorland being mentally stable AT ALL.

Aren't they constructs? Their minds can simply be stable by design - they are able to withstand the Far Realm because they were created exclusively for that purpose.

As for how they reproduce, I imagine it like crystal replication, where they just absorb a lot of energy or matter (same thing really) through some process and begin producing crystal growths, which break off to become new beings.

Judge_Worm

2014-10-05, 06:00 PM

A note about Illithids, they can make a half-Illithid out of anything that is humanoid but isn't human (like Goblins, Kua-Toa, and Drow), which can make full-fledged Illithids. Plus they have the Elder Brain which will stop them from overpopulation or decimating their food source. It's not hard to imagine a human noble trading the lives of some peasants in exchange for protection (or magical/psionic items).

The race that surprises me to continue existing is Tieflings, seriously given the nature of a middle-ages mindset why aren't they all destroyed at birth?

And I'm surprised goblins haven't been hunted to extinction, the humans they antagonize are generally bigger, stronger, and smarter. It's not like bugbears and hobgoblins would come rushing to their aid.

Spore

2014-10-05, 06:05 PM

The race that surprises me to continue existing is Tieflings, seriously given the nature of a middle-ages mindset why aren't they all destroyed at birth?

In a world where the threat: "Hurt my child and his daddy demon will come to eat you!" isn't a lunacy but a credible answer? Probably this. Also Tieflings and Aasimars are possibly so snowflakey that each individual has its own story.

Bluydee

2014-10-05, 06:05 PM

"Nae lissen 'ere. I dun' like ye, and ye dun' like me, but if we don't haff a kid at some poin', Reorx'll be right sore."

I'd like to sig this.

For my contribution: kobolds are weak, small lizards that are constantly being hunted by adventurers despite while hiding in caves.

Twilightwyrm

2014-10-05, 06:06 PM

torrasque666

2014-10-05, 06:07 PM

The race that surprises me to continue existing is Tieflings, seriously given the nature of a middle-ages mindset why aren't they all destroyed at birth?

Because sometimes a mother doesn't want to let anyone kill her kid?

Then again, there are the few crazy cultists who would probably consider them a blessing

My confusion lies with the Kobolds. They are relatively weak, very few of them are Dragonwraught if any at all in a given community, are known for thieving and skulking, and are generally disliked/hated by surface-dwellers. There can't possibly be enough of them to justify their existence by sheer numbers.

Twilightwyrm

2014-10-05, 06:11 PM

Because sometimes a mother doesn't want to let anyone kill her kid?

Then again, there are the few crazy cultists who would probably consider them a blessing

My confusion lies with the Kobolds. They are relatively weak, very few of them are Dragonwraught if any at all in a given community, are known for thieving and skulking, and are generally disliked/hated by surface-dwellers. There can't possibly be enough of them to justify their existence by sheer numbers.

Might of been the reason they originally started serving dragons. Sure, the dragons don't care much for them, (and if evil will likely eat a few on occasion) but even if you dislike/hate a group of creatures, you are going to be a lot less likely to attack their stronghold if a great red wyrm might pop out and devour/incinerate the lot of you for disturbing its slumber.

malonkey1

2014-10-05, 06:11 PM

I'd like to sig this.

For my contribution: kobolds are weak, small lizards that are constantly being hunted by adventurers despite while hiding in caves.

Sig away, buddy.

Jeff the Green

2014-10-05, 06:14 PM

Might of been the reason they originally started serving dragons. Sure, the dragons don't care much for them, (and if evil will likely eat a few on occasion) but even if you dislike/hate a group of creatures, you are going to be a lot less likely to attack their stronghold if a great red wyrm might pop out and devour/incinerate the lot of you for disturbing its slumber.

They're also explosive breeders.

georgie_leech

2014-10-05, 06:14 PM

Because sometimes a mother doesn't want to let anyone kill her kid?

Then again, there are the few crazy cultists who would probably consider them a blessing

My confusion lies with the Kobolds. They are relatively weak, very few of them are Dragonwraught if any at all in a given community, are known for thieving and skulking, and are generally disliked/hated by surface-dwellers. There can't possibly be enough of them to justify their existence by sheer numbers.

There are enough of them that the resources required to stamp them out would leave whoever's attempting at the mercy of the Goblins. Or the Orcs. Or the Bugbears. Or the Gnolls. Or the Ogres. Or the Giants. Or the...

In other words, it's not the number of Kobolds, it's all the other things. There are too many potential threats for any given race of surface dwellers to commit the resources to get rid of them, especially when, as noted, they're more nuisances than a real threat.

Psyren

2014-10-05, 06:17 PM

Some Tieflings are also hard to spot. e.g. they look human but have a sulfurous stench if you get close. Wear heavy perfume and presto.

But more importantly, even if all the tieflings of a given generation were massacred, you can't exterminate planetouched that way. AS long as it's in your bloodline at some point, there is a chance of a descendant popping up with it; they can never truly be "extinct."

My confusion lies with the Kobolds. They are relatively weak, very few of them are Dragonwraught if any at all in a given community, are known for thieving and skulking, and are generally disliked/hated by surface-dwellers. There can't possibly be enough of them to justify their existence by sheer numbers.

The surface-dwellers may hate them but they can't really do anything about it either. Trying to assault a kobold warren would be suicide for many races.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that there aren't many of them down there - RotD uses terms like "vast population, "teeming swarms" and "overcrowding" to describe their tribes.

Blackhawk748

2014-10-05, 06:33 PM

They're also explosive breeders.

Goblins have the same thing going for them. Honestly Goblins and Kobolds have a lot in common. Dragons watch out for their little kobold minions, Giants, Ogres and Trolls watch over their little goblin "buddies"

Im also gonna second Elves and Kender (stupid divine intervention)

Honestly im kinda surprised humans are still alive. I mean mix the interbreeding with other races and the fact that humans are always fighting somebody and thats a recipe for a bad time.

Roxxy

2014-10-05, 06:46 PM

The race that surprises me to continue existing is Tieflings, seriously given the nature of a middle-ages mindset why aren't they all destroyed at birth?I haven't really seen much middle age mindset in D&D.

Honest Tiefling

2014-10-05, 06:47 PM

I love the **** out of tieflings if you haven't noticed, but I assume most tiefers get their start either by looking human, being raised by a cult, a wizard intent on experimentation, or being dropped off at birth at a more benevolent temple. Large scale tiefling societies don't appeal to me unless there is a good reason such as a pact changing a large scale population that then banded together because they would be exterminated utterly otherwise. Still, it would probably have drow like problems, through I imagine that fiendish bloodlines wouldn't come with a constitution penalty. Then again, many mothers (and depending on magic, fathers...) would probably keel over after birth depending on the nature of the fiends.

Human-like tieflings I think, should be run by the DM because the nature of fiends and they might want to decide what tieflings look like. Also, it could be seen as a cop-out and a way to get out of a penalty of the race. Then again, it does diminish Super Special Snowflake syndrome...

Humans keep existing because of sheer numbers. We'll bang, okay?

Jeff the Green

2014-10-05, 06:50 PM

Honestly im kinda surprised humans are still alive. I mean mix the interbreeding with other races and the fact that humans are always fighting somebody and thats a recipe for a bad time.

Interbreeding isn't a huge problem, actually. First, if there's fewer than 2 half-elf born per generation to a given human population, they will remain almost entirely distinct from elves (same thing with other crosses). Second, you can have introgression events with back crossing (i.e. there are several half-elves born, but then they mate with humans) without substantially altering a species. Finally, it's possible that elves and humans differ by only one gene with two alleles. That would ensure that there's plenty of "pure" humans and elves unless there's some very hinky stuff going on.

atemu1234

2014-10-05, 07:05 PM

Drow. They constantly murder each other, often gaining rank that way. As a result, none of the people in charge actually have to be competent at their job, just better at killing and avoiding assassins than anyone else. Because of the previous, nobody would trust each other even remotely. Without a semblance of trust, its amazing they have any society at all. Add in a parenting style that both kills most infants and raises complete socio/psycho paths, and that, as elves, they have a long gestation time and growth period, and its a miracle they ever develop beyond non-sentient cave dwellers. A literal miracle, because Drow of the underdark specifically says the only reason that they stick around is because if their population gets too low, Lolth herself shows up and tells them to lay off. Sure, demons have a lot of the same problems, but A:there are an infinite amount of them and B: they don't really have a society.

Another vote for drow, for the aforementioned reasons AND because the women being more likely to be offed and have a -2 to constitution. That combo just doesn't make it seem likely they could survive childbirth enough times to make enough children to replace the numbers killed every day. Heck, I have to wonder what a drow midwife would be like...

When it comes to drow, divine intervention IS the control mechanism. It's not a surprise they don't die off with big spider mother looking over their shoulder.

Elf. Warlike with an incredibly slow rate of reproduction. Drow is worse, but just.. elf.

Regular elves. In an average setting there are things that could kill a standard commoner in less than a round. And elves have a century to mature into SOMETHING useful. Until that they have plenty of time being offed by various dangers. Everything is stacked against this race. Low constitution, relatively short fertility cycles. Long pregnancy, long childhood, dangerous environment.

I can see elf, but the thing is that they tend to live in large civilizations (at least, some breeds do) so they aren't at too huge a risk of dying. That long childhood is offset by a commensurately large adulthood.

My confusion lies with the Kobolds. They are relatively weak, very few of them are Dragonwraught if any at all in a given community, are known for thieving and skulking, and are generally disliked/hated by surface-dwellers. There can't possibly be enough of them to justify their existence by sheer numbers.

They breed extremely quickly, have a short childhood and are excellent trapmakers.

Honest Tiefling

2014-10-05, 07:08 PM

Large civilization could work against the elves. That constitution penalty isn't doing them any favors when the local plague rolls around, after all.

Anlashok

2014-10-05, 07:12 PM

Large civilization could work against the elves. That constitution penalty isn't doing them any favors when the local plague rolls around, after all.

Probably not that big a deal when we're dealing with a race defined by its spellcasting ability. Large civilization ends up just meaning you have easier access to disease removal.

Honest Tiefling

2014-10-05, 07:14 PM

Wizardly, not clerical spell casting however. And wizards have awesome fortitude saves as we all know.

Judge_Worm

2014-10-05, 07:20 PM

In a world where the threat: "Hurt my child and his daddy demon will come to eat you!" isn't a lunacy but a credible answer? Probably this. Also Tieflings and Aasimars are possibly so snowflakey that each individual has its own story.

While that applies to Half-Fiends, Tieflings are more removed from their outsider heritage. While they might be the children of half-fiends they are just as likely (or more so depending on the abundance of half-fiends) to be born to otherwise normal parents and great great great grandma was an adventuring bard that had to find a unique way to escape an encounter with a pit fiend.

That and while Daddy Devil, or Momma Yugoloth might care about their mortal spawn (and in the case of devils this caring extends only as far as using their spawn as a pawn, Asmodeus being the exception) demons in particular almost certainly wouldn't, they'd be more likely to devour their children, or else completely forget about them (demons as far as I'm aware are more of a manifestation of the Abyss than independent free thinking organisms). Tieflings are the descendants of evil outsiders who really only care about themselves, caring little if at all for family.

But I digress, the average commoner isn't going to get that knowledge religion/planes check, and will probably just think their child is deformed and probably drop it off at the local temple, where good clerics won't kill an infant and evil clerics will raise it as one of their own, and neutral clerics won't care about its evil heritage.
/rant

VoxRationis

2014-10-05, 07:36 PM

Elves don't typically go for high-density urban centers with poor sanitation, which is what really kills you with plagues (aside from North America's introduction to smallpox, which is a much different scenario than your usual medieval plague).
Actually, I had a setting where the kobolds had gone extinct due to over-adventuring, a la the passenger pigeon. "There were just so many of them, we thought we could never kill them all..."

squiggit

2014-10-05, 07:38 PM

I just assume quest-givers have giant pastures of domesticated kobolds that the release into dungeons for the next adventuring group.

Fax Celestis

2014-10-05, 07:41 PM

I just assume quest-givers have giant pastures of domesticated kobolds that the release into dungeons for the next adventuring group.

D&D/Smash TV crossover?

Snowbluff

2014-10-05, 07:52 PM

Kender :smallfurious:
Beat me to it.

Thri-Kreen have the charisma problem as well.

I'll point that Thri-Kreen are fundamentally different from you vertebrate apes. Charisma isn't so much of a concern to them when they are more interested in the continuation of their tribe. Not to mention that they can jump for days.

Jeff the Green

2014-10-05, 08:05 PM

Elves don't typically go for high-density urban centers with poor sanitation, which is what really kills you with plagues (aside from North America's introduction to smallpox, which is a much different scenario than your usual medieval plague).[/I]

While cities don't help, it's really more a matter of proximity to animals. Zoonosis is much more common if you're futzing with mammary glands, shoveling manure, and treating them like family than if you're just shooting and eating them, and the really bad epidemic diseases, like flu, measles, small pox, etc. really only need the population density of an agrarian population to spread. Plus there are a lot of non-epidemic diseases that kill. Malaria's the big one, but tuberculosis is another.

Elves don't typically go for high-density urban centers with poor sanitation, which is what really kills you with plagues (aside from North America's introduction to smallpox, which is a much different scenario than your usual medieval plague).
Actually, I had a setting where the kobolds had gone extinct due to over-adventuring, a la the passenger pigeon. "There were just so many of them, we thought we could never kill them all..."

I like this. I'd expect Kobolds to exhibit the same sort of allee effects too.

VoxRationis

2014-10-05, 09:11 PM

Jeff the Green

2014-10-05, 09:14 PM

Well, elves are often not considered livestock-handling people (though this depends on the setting, I'd imagine), which limits zoonosis. On the other hand, they do come into contact with people who do, which might either just cause catastrophic exposure or give them limited immunity-causing exposure.

Either way, I'm more worried about non-epidemic diseases. An extra 5% of the population failing their saving throws could be absolutely devastating. Every injury is even more deadly than it is in real life, malaria spreads much more (and if you do evolve the sickle cell trait, it develops into sickle cell disease more often), the occasional flash-in-the-pan zoonoses hunter-gatherer societies get (like ebola) kill an additional 5% of the population, etc.

JKTrickster

2014-10-05, 09:49 PM

Humans.

Honestly - in a world where the average Orc Warrior is better than the average Human Warrior, why do humans survive?

They interbreed with almost any other race - that's a bad thing. That means a conquered population can be easily assimilated and integrated into another race, before being permanently breed-ed into the population through sheer time and successive generations.

Aside from high level class levels, humans don't have much going for them.

Yeah they're perfect to build PC with, but at level 1 NPC, are they really that useful?

Extra Anchovies

2014-10-05, 09:56 PM

Humans.

Honestly - in a world where the average Orc Warrior is better than the average Human Warrior, why do humans survive?

I'd chalk it up to an across-the-board mental superiority, combined with being allies of Elves and Dwarves rather than being mortal enemies of those races. Not many races, as a whole, are too enamored with orcs - even the goblinoids don't like them too much.

ETA: Also, at 1st level, do not underestimate an average 8 skill point advantage (4 from Int difference, 4 from human bonus skill points).

Pan151

2014-10-05, 09:56 PM

They breed extremely quickly, have a short childhood and are excellent trapmakers.

Not to mention they have innate magic running in their blood.

While actually not a race by 3.5 rules, I'll go with necropolitans. How exactly their one city has not been in the recieving end of at least one crusade from some anti-undead god's army already is beyond me.

StreamOfTheSky

2014-10-05, 09:58 PM

While you've made some good points, I think there are a few unaccounted for mitigating factors here: Dwarves love the thrill of the melee, but if you look at their racial tactics and method of warfare, you'll see it is all very defense focused (to the point of being statics defense) in nature. High walls, thick armor, phalanx fighting formations, extensive use of siege weaponry, high battle discipline, rigid and tactically minded operations, high cleric-to-soldier ratios, and a racial bonus against all those enemies you mentioned means that if any race is going to take minimal casualties in melees, it will be the dwarves. Plus, as much as they enjoy battle, they are beholden to their clans, and the rule of law much more. Sure, they would like to always be out bringing the battle to their hated enemies, but if their king commands them to hide-in-their-mountains-caring-nothing-for-the-troubles-of-others for a few generations, they will do so. There will be more drunken brawling in taverns to get out their excess aggression during this time, but they will wait the generation or two to build up their numbers again if their king commands it. And remember, their time until maturity is only about 1/3 that of elves, so their predicament isn't quite as dire. What you would likely see is every three or four generations, you will get a young, glory hungry king that leads that army out to take land and take the fight to their ancestral enemies. This will proceed for several decades, even granting them some territory outside their main strongholds, until invariably their numbers start dwindling to unsustainable levels against the greater numbers of their enemies, and their king gets killed leading some grand battle, at which point the surviving queen/new king begins to retreat, leading them back behind the walls of their ancestral citadel to recuperate for a few generations, during which time much of that territory they took gets slowly whittled away to about where it was before, at which point a new warlike king comes along the the cycle repeats itself.

Sure, those are also good points (though the offensive boons of many of their rivals, especially the high str orcs and bugbears, counter-acts some of that defense if not all of it). I can see that, though I would say they'd lose the ground they completely abandon very quickly and over the next several decades have even their fortress holdings chipped away at, only to surge forth again once and capture a large swath. But...basically the same cycle.

In any case, the regular elves (not those sociopathic drow) have at least as good a case for not going extinct as the dwarves do, I'd say.

Humans.

Honestly - in a world where the average Orc Warrior is better than the average Human Warrior, why do humans survive?

They interbreed with almost any other race - that's a bad thing. That means a conquered population can be easily assimilated and integrated into another race, before being permanently breed-ed into the population through sheer time and successive generations.

Aside from high level class levels, humans don't have much going for them.

Yeah they're perfect to build PC with, but at level 1 NPC, are they really that useful?

The inter-breeding and mixing ensures humans will never completely die out, if anything. And while they mature slower than goblins and such, humans are still battle ready at age 15 in D&D, so they can repopulate pretty quickly compared to many other races.

If anything would be a threat to humans...not total extinction, but definitely dwindling their numbers down massively.... it's their unique propensity for killing each other. Even the CE orcs tend to fall in line behind the biggest baddest dude and do whatever he says until someone else topples him. Humans will wage war between kingdoms or even civil wars like it's nothing. More humans probably die to other humans than to all other creatures combined.

Psyren

2014-10-05, 09:59 PM

The average human is indeed weak.

But the most powerful humans are typically head and shoulders above those of other races. That bonus feat and skill points go a long way if you optimize. And once individual humans take charge, they found settlements/cities that end up giving their weaker fellows the advantage if they band together.

An individual orc or hobgboblin, or even dwarf or elf, is indeed stronger than an individual human. But because humans have the optimal combination of infrastructure and numbers, They end up winning as a group. With their adaptibility, they're able to assimilate the best tactics and technology from everyone they fight - the military structure of hobgoblins and dwarves, the ferocity of orcs, the technique o elves etc.

Mirakk

2014-10-05, 10:11 PM

Sure, those are also good points (though the offensive boons of many of their rivals, especially the high str orcs and bugbears, counter-acts some of that defense if not all of it). I can see that, though I would say they'd lose the ground they completely abandon very quickly and over the next several decades have even their fortress holdings chipped away at, only to surge forth again once and capture a large swath. But...basically the same cycle.

Remember also Dwarvencraft construction is quite sturdy, and they likely have the art of tunnelfighting and shieldwall tactics down to a science. Your average Orc horde isn't going to be able to make much progress against that, especially when combined with a large number of clerics specializing in earth spells are constantly making choke points, diverting underground lakes into tunnels, and otherwise making life hell on them. If any race can hole up for a while and weather the storm, it's the Dwarves.

Rater202

2014-10-05, 10:28 PM

I'd like to sig this.

For my contribution: kobolds are weak, small lizards that are constantly being hunted by adventurers despite while hiding in caves.

1. Explosive breeding.

2. They have a patron God looking out for them

3. as of "Races of the dragon" Kobolds have the dragonblooded subtype, letting them count as dragons for certain efects

4. a small percentage of the literally are dragons.

5. as all Kobolds have dragonblood, all of them have the potential for sorcery

6.Nonevil Kobold popuations are usually on friendly terms with dwarven popuations.

7. They can eat literally anything-Races of the Dragon mentions that in times of famine they can literally derive nutrition from dirt and rocks

8. Despite dense populations, communicable diseases aren't much of a problem becuase kobold culture highly values good personal hygine, and between mining(work) and swimming(leisure) most kobolds are in good physical shape

9. Kobolds close ranks-kobolds have no value on blood relation, beyond smelling them and avoiding them as potential mates, instead, the entire settlemeant is considered one big extended family, not unlike a clan of dwarves.

10. culturally speaking, even good aligned, peaceful settlements of kobolds consider the creation, use, and maintenance of cruel and deadly traps to be an art form

StreamOfTheSky

2014-10-05, 10:50 PM

"Divine intervention" feels like a cop out justification to me. Most races have a patron deity that created them and doesn't want to see them cease to exist (plus I'm guessing if that happened, they'd lose a great deal of their own divine power for lack of worshippers). So yeah...Drow and Kender may have them too, but...so what? The only thing of note is Lloth literally stepping in and forcing her own people to stop murdering each other once in a while.

YossarianLives

2014-10-05, 11:18 PM

Probably orcs. I mean they are aggressive, violent, and seem to spend most of their time killing peasants or being slaughtered by adventurers.

Andion Isurand

2014-10-06, 12:46 AM

By the math as written, I feel that the elves are the most vulnerable with regard to their fitness to survive. Personally, I always considered elves to be portrayed as significantly healthier than other common races, when it comes to disease and such.

+2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution.
Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Elf base land speed is 30 feet.
Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Weapon Group Proficiencies: Elves are proficient with Bows, as well as Light Blades or Heavy Blades.
+2 racial bonus on Concentration, Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
+4 racial bonus on saving throws against all disease effects, including supernatural diseases.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against paralysis and mind-affecting spells or effects.
Immunity to magic sleep effects.
Reverie: Elves do not sleep. Elves that trance for 4 hours gain the same benefit a human does from 8 hours of sleep. A creature in trance may make Listen checks with half the penalty that sleeping creatures do (normally -10 for sleeping creatures).
Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.
Favored Class: Wizard. A multiclass elf’s wizard class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

The above changes would also coincide with removing the elven immunity to a ghoul's paralysis effect.
Other race revisions and their updates can be found here (http://magerune.blogspot.com/2011/10/race-revisions-and-additions.html).

I also feel that the elven maturation time was a bit overestimated. It is my assertion that all elves (and spirit folk) should reach adulthood at 75 years of age, splitting the difference between 50 and 100 as indicated in following passage written by J.R.R. Tolkien...

from Morgoth's Ring, pg. 209

The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly. They learned to speak before they were one year old; and in the same time they learned to walk and to dance, for their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies. Nonetheless there was less difference between the two Kindreds, Elves and Men, in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children at play might well have believed that they were the children of Men, of some fair and happy people. For in their early days elf-children delighted still in the world about them, and the fire of their spirit had not consumed them, and the burden of memory was still light upon them.

This same watcher might indeed have wondered at the small limbs and stature of these children, judging their age by their skill in words and grace in motion. For at the end of the third year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to a full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of childhood. Children of Men might reach their full height while Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years. Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown.

Phelix-Mu

2014-10-06, 12:58 AM

I haven't read the whole thread, but I'd just like to point out that magic, even in small quantities, renders mundane threats moot almost without even trying. So many of the races that seem unrealistic are unrealistic, but luckily they live in an unrealistic world.:smallsmile:

After mundane threats, it's mainly down to organized or higher-CR stuff, and that is why there are higher-level beings in the world; dragons exist, so someone became a dragonslayer. And, almost to an instance, there are few creatures that can compete natively with character optimization. Class features op is generally >>> creature optimization, especially RAW creatures (typically horrifically built from an op standpoint). A well-built dragonslayer with equipment and party support can expect to slay many dragons (if we go by the RAW dragons, especially), and s/he will save many otherwise sub-optimal beings from sub-optimal races from having to survive dragons. Every threat is an opportunity for new heroes/entrepreneurs, and the game gives those tackling threats as much ammunition as those creating threats (except for DM fiat, ofc).

The same is true of many of the other threats, and moreso of the low-level ones. Orcs? Some elves slay them professionally, and such an elf will slay thousands in a relatively light-activity lifetime.

Basically, my point is that many races (*cough* humans *cough*) do survive in a hostile world despite disadvantages. How? Specialization, tech, magic, fast-breeding. The justifications aren't consistently plausible, but they are generally there.

Eldan

2014-10-06, 01:26 AM

[SPOILER=Disclaimer:]T
-Githyanki live on the Astral Plane. This means they are dependent on magic or raiding for even the most basic natural resources. Also, individual movement on the plane is based on INT, in which Githyanki have no bonus.

I'd say that's probably their biggest strength, actually.
On the Astral Plane, they:
-Can hide away very easily, as it is endless and empty
-Have ridiculously easy access to powerful magic
-Do not need food or most other resources
-Can get their resources by hijacking planar pathways, which then dump their load into the astral
-Do not ever age

Phelix-Mu

2014-10-06, 01:34 AM

I'd say that's probably their biggest strength, actually.
On the Astral Plane, they:
-Can hide away very easily, as it is endless and empty
-Have ridiculously easy access to powerful magic
-Do not need food or most other resources
-Can get their resources by hijacking planar pathways, which then dump their load into the astral
-Do not ever age

They also have that weird pact with red dragons. Nothing to shore up the survivability of your race like red dragons that actually want to help you (albeit mainly to fight illithids, I guess, but still). And want might be a strong word....

Again, even low-level magic users being common makes a race fabulously powerful. And dating back a couple editions, githyanki always seemed to be loaded down with magical stuff (if not actual casting). Remember, back in the day, fighter/mage wasn't career suicide like it is now (particularly for npcs, though that's a bit metagamey).

Eldan

2014-10-06, 01:39 AM

It's also important that the Githyanki invented the word "Gish", as in a dual-class, multiclass, whatever, wizard-fighter. It's one of their more common soldier classes.

Milo v3

2014-10-06, 01:40 AM

-Do not ever age

Isn't that more a weakness, I mean, when they're not ageing they cannot produce children and the children they have wont get older.

Phelix-Mu

2014-10-06, 01:42 AM

It's also important that the Githyanki invented the word "Gish", as in a dual-class, multiclass, whatever, wizard-fighter. It's one of their more common soldier classes.

Indeed. I several times nearly slaughtered entire parties of characters in 2e by sending them up against githyanki fighter/mages that were using crack tactics and working with some prep time. Even back then, their access to lots of magic and some beat down made them pretty fearsome.

A testament to 3e's magic system that simple beat down doesn't even make optimized characters bat an eyelash anymore.

Edit: Would be pretty cool to have githyankis work off cloning, to deal with the reproduction thing.

Also, there are ways to magically age creatures, like curses or the various ways to steal lifespan from one creature and add it to the other.

Nightcanon

2014-10-06, 01:47 AM

Gwendol

2014-10-06, 01:51 AM

Goliaths. They share the same habitat as creatures such as giants and dragons, are both nomadic and with a chaotic bent, which just means they have no cities, fortresses or strongholds to speak of. They are obsessed with strength and competition, which just means they will take risks while climbing and jumping.

Not sure they are iconic (yet).

Gnomes I can't quite figure out can still be around. Sure, maybe they can keep the goblinoids at bay using illusions and traps and what not, but what will they do against kobolds? They just seem like race ready to be run over to me.

Erik Vale

2014-10-06, 01:58 AM

Regular elves/Kobolds

RotW: Elves are physically mature by 20, but are somewhere mentally between 13-17 until 100. If population pressures pushed they could grow up much faster and also buckle down to breed. They won't out breed the humans by any means, but that's what the skill of the ones around 300 years old are for.
I'll take a point to say that were I to GM, long lived species would have to be stupid and slow, or non existant. Humans can reach amazing heights with their comparatively small lifespan, imagine how good someone who's been at it a couple of centuries could be.

Kobolds [RotD]: Their merchants are skilled enough to pass to trade with other races while prentending to be a member of said race that no one realises, a Kobold mine [and by extension, everything else] is so organised and efficient that the Dwarves take note, they're as numerous as goblins, and they have a society that goes so far to even train their sorcerers, something no other does, deciding to just let sorcerers explore their magic.
However, the aforementioned plauge idea levelled at the elves could wipe them out, given that they've a -4 [I think] in con and live in extremely high densities... But they're also very clean, due to their numbers have enough members to roll natural 20s, and also due to their numbers have plenty of clerics for the other guys.

Also, both these races have access to large numbers of wizards.
Prestidigitation is a cantrip.
Prestidigitation can clean things, absolutely.
They can literally sterilize any area they want. Kinda hard for a plague to spread when it has to be in active hiding.

As for Iconic race... I'd say Dwarf. Sure, tough, but when you're picking a fight with everything, including tougher things, some of which are organised... If I couldn't imagine Halflings being constantly enslaved and then let go because their not to useful/annoyingly passive [Hello short Ghandi] up until they got some sort of trade/defence agreement with the Humans I'd also propose them.

Necroticplague

2014-10-06, 02:02 AM

Edit: Would be pretty cool to have githyankis work off cloning, to deal with the reproduction thing.

Also, there are ways to magically age creatures, like curses or the various ways to steal lifespan from one creature and add it to the other.

Even if they clones themselves, the Timeless nature of the Astral still stops them from growing up. However, this is easily gotten around by having colonies on literally any other plane of existence where their young can be raized. And the Timeless nature of the plane can also benefit them because it means any buff spells they cast last forever. So with enough time, any of their soldiers will eventually become incredibly strong purely through accumulation of buff spells that don't wear off (admittedly, the same could also be said of anything else on the astral...)

Eldan

2014-10-06, 02:11 AM

Which they do have.

It's also noteable that the Illithid changed them to be egg-laying. So the Gith have fortresses on various worlds, in places that are difficult to access to those not coming via the Astral, where they lay and guard their egg-clutches until they reach physical maturity.

Coidzor

2014-10-06, 02:22 AM

The race that surprises me to continue existing is Tieflings, seriously given the nature of a middle-ages mindset why aren't they all destroyed at birth?

Nah, Tieflings will always pop up because there'll always be Fiends and as long as there are Fiends there will be Half-Firends for a wide variety of reasons and so long as there are Half-Fiends there will be descendants of Half-Fiends. Also, as long as there are humans, it'll be a crapshoot just what comes out due to how much they've interbred with everything else.

Plus, most of the religions of D&D, if they were going to have anything on the subject of infanticide, would tend to have injunctions against killing of infants without a very good reason, especially if they touched upon the subject at any point since the 90s... and then others will intentionally want to breed for tieflings...

So, while I'd definitely agree that a number of them would be infanticided, not nearly ubiquitously enough to prevent them from ever appearing.

I believe it's theoretically possible for a Mongrelfolk to be born of two humans who, at least for the two generations before them, were completely bog-standard human as far as they knew. Like Gar the Human who is somehow an Orc from Arcanum.

And I'm surprised goblins haven't been hunted to extinction, the humans they antagonize are generally bigger, stronger, and smarter. It's not like bugbears and hobgoblins would come rushing to their aid.

Eh, they're about as intelligent as humans, they're just portrayed as primitives or stupider than they actually are for some reason. Though, by all means, if someone can convince the PF devs to give them crippling mental ability score penalties to go along with how they treat them in the fluff, more power to 'em.

Also, they're useful as slave labor to a number of different groups, simply because they reproduce fairly quickly, can fit into smaller spaces than humans, but not so small that they can get out and into anything like kobolds could; and are relatively weak and cowable with the proper levers.

That, and there's enough wilderness that doing something on the large scale would get their notice and cause a whole bunch of guerilla warfare and skirmishing instead of having them relatively complacent so that Adventurers can go through and cull their numbers for experience every few years.

D&D/Smash TV crossover?

The entertainment of the masses in the Tippyverse. :smallamused:

Pilo

2014-10-06, 03:06 AM

Why Kenders and not tinker gnomes?

Seriously, they have very few settlements, each of there creations kills a few of them when it blows.

Eldan

2014-10-06, 03:12 AM

It is also mentioned in some Planescape sources that Tieflings and other Planetouched don't even need fiend ancestors to manifest. There's magical exposure during pregnancy, there's magic twisting the parents in some way, there's curses, there's conceiving on an outer plane, all of which can change the child.

avr

2014-10-06, 04:14 AM

Another point against elves I haven't seen mentioned; they are often depicted as living in treehouses, high above the ground, with minimal railings. They may have a higher dex but surely this is a huge hazard? Low con makes the sudden stop that much more likely to deal fatal damage too.

ShurikVch

2014-10-06, 05:01 AM

I say all this as a prelude to nominating dwarves. While they mature faster than elves and are hardy, they still have a long life cycle and unlike elves the dwarves do explicitly love the thrill of battle, especially up close and personal melee combat, where casualties are always the highest. And their major enemies -- orcs, hobgoblins, bugbears -- are all equally powerful at melee combat but far more numerous and with vastly quicker rates of maturation. I can't imagine any setting featuring dwarves having long been at war with their traditional enemies that they wouldn't be suffering from a severe population decline and facing inevitable extinction down the road. If you say so about "regular" dwarves, I wonder what you will say about the Frost Dwarves?
They are almost like usual Duergars, except with (Extraplanar) subtype, extra +2 Con, cold res. 10, and SLAs are chill touch and obscuring mist (cast at frost dwarf’s class level +2, min. 3)
And they live in the Abyss. Abyss! No, seriously, one more time, ABYSS!!!
Plane which sheer environment can easily kill a full-grown dragon. It's no matter if they used as slaves - slavery not supposed to stimulate high birth rate, and exhausting work in the dangerous conditions should cause high mortality.

While you've made some good points, I think there are a few unaccounted for mitigating factors here: Dwarves love the thrill of the melee, but if you look at their racial tactics and method of warfare, you'll see it is all very defense focused (to the point of being statics defense) in nature. High walls, thick armor, phalanx fighting formations, extensive use of siege weaponry, high battle discipline, rigid and tactically minded operations, high cleric-to-soldier ratios, and a racial bonus against all those enemies you mentioned means that if any race is going to take minimal casualties in melees, it will be the dwarves. Plus, as much as they enjoy battle, they are beholden to their clans, and the rule of law much more. Sure, they would like to always be out bringing the battle to their hated enemies, but if their king commands them to hide-in-their-mountains-caring-nothing-for-the-troubles-of-others for a few generations, they will do so. There will be more drunken brawling in taverns to get out their excess aggression during this time, but they will wait the generation or two to build up their numbers again if their king commands it. And remember, their time until maturity is only about 1/3 that of elves, so their predicament isn't quite as dire. What you would likely see is every three or four generations, you will get a young, glory hungry king that leads that army out to take land and take the fight to their ancestral enemies. This will proceed for several decades, even granting them some territory outside their main strongholds, until invariably their numbers start dwindling to unsustainable levels against the greater numbers of their enemies, and their king gets killed leading some grand battle, at which point the surviving queen/new king begins to retreat, leading them back behind the walls of their ancestral citadel to recuperate for a few generations, during which time much of that territory they took gets slowly whittled away to about where it was before, at which point a new warlike king comes along the the cycle repeats itself. Are you familiar with conception of Slayers from the Warhammer Fantasy?
If not, there (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_%28Warhammer%29#Slayers) they are. It's form of honorable suicide via going against the impossible enemies. (What kind of enemies we can see by titles such as "Ogreslayer", "Giantslayer", "Dragonslayer", and "Daemonslayer")
But it's probably not a big deal if some dwarves here and there sometimes go Slayers?
Except during the Storm of Chaos (http://warhammerfb.wikia.com/wiki/Storm_of_Chaos) there was the whole army of Slayers, lead by the Ungrim Ironfist (http://warhammerfb.wikia.com/wiki/Ungrim_Ironfist), Slayer-King (!!!:smalleek:) of Karak Kadrin

I'd say that's probably their biggest strength, actually.
On the Astral Plane, they:
-Can hide away very easily, as it is endless and empty Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Astral a main pathway of all telepotations in the universe? And since the Greater Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm) doesn't required familiarity with destination, Githyanki always just one 7th-level scroll away from teleporting ambush

-Do not need food or most other resources Bad news: Inhabitants of Astral Plane doesn't need food&water only as long as they are on the Astral Plane. At the instant they planeshift into normal timeflow, all their hunger and thirst will catch with them. How long without any eating and drinking? They will be pile of dust faster than vampire in Sahara noon!
Good news: it's not a concern to Githyanki, because their settlements are, actually, not timeless
Bad news: by aforementioned reason, Githyanki still need resources

-Do not ever age They do. See above! :smallwink:

Which they do have.

It's also noteable that the Illithid changed them to be egg-laying. When it's happened? O_o

Eldan

2014-10-06, 06:19 AM

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Astral a main pathway of all telepotations in the universe? And since the Greater Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm) doesn't required familiarity with destination, Githyanki always just one 7th-level scroll away from teleporting ambush
Bad news: Inhabitants of Astral Plane doesn't need food&water only as long as they are on the Astral Plane. At the instant they planeshift into normal timeflow, all their hunger and thirst will catch with them. How long without any eating and drinking? They will be pile of dust faster than vampire in Sahara noon!
Good news: it's not a concern to Githyanki, because their settlements are, actually, not timeless
Bad news: by aforementioned reason, Githyanki still need resources

Planescape fluff again. Yes, they do need food and they do age, but I imagine that at least some Githyanki castes and social groups would not leave on the normal raiding and warfare that uch of the race engages in. If they have, say, scholars or healers, they could easily stay behind.

Anyway, teleportations go through the astral, yes. However, it is not technically possible (in Planescape again) to teleport to or from the Astral. One can, however, end up in a random location on it if one fails at teleporting or planeshifting or tries to use a damaged planar pathway. It's described as the "backstage of the multiverse", where things go if they fall through the cracks and where a lot of the processes happen that make other planes possible.

Rubik

2014-10-06, 06:39 AM

Might of beenYou missed a typo.

atemu1234

2014-10-06, 06:54 AM

Isn't that more a weakness, I mean, when they're not ageing they cannot produce children and the children they have wont get older.

Not Aging =/= No children

They live on an infinite plane, having children there, no matter how many, won't change that.

Another point against elves I haven't seen mentioned; they are often depicted as living in treehouses, high above the ground, with minimal railings. They may have a higher dex but surely this is a huge hazard? Low con makes the sudden stop that much more likely to deal fatal damage too.

Plus, balance isn't a class skill for wizards :smalleek:.

Milo v3

2014-10-06, 07:12 AM

Not Aging =/= No children

They live on an infinite plane, having children there, no matter how many, won't change that.

As far as I'm aware, pregnancy requires time, time does not pass... Which could get really squick if you walk into the astral pregnant and walk out after the baby was meant to come out.... :smalleek:

Rubik

2014-10-06, 07:40 AM

As far as I'm aware, pregnancy requires time, time does not pass... Which could get really squick if you walk into the astral pregnant and walk out after the baby was meant to come out.... :smalleek:This reminds me. Have I ever told you how much I wonder about your avatar? I see it out of the corner of my eye, and every time, it makes me think things I really shouldn't.

Milo v3

2014-10-06, 07:47 AM

This reminds me. Have I ever told you how much I wonder about your avatar? I see it out of the corner of my eye, and every time, it makes me think things I really shouldn't.

I wouldn't have thought I'd posted enough for that.
It's "meant" to be a pillow.... By I suck at art, had to use a laptop touchpad, I spent five minutes on it, and was stuck using MS Paint at the time; a very bad combo... Should probably update/fix it now I got a new computer last week..... I like doing dots.

Ettina

2014-10-06, 09:45 AM

toapat

2014-10-06, 09:57 AM

The Drow we have the canon "Lolth mandated the Drow to procreate instead of murder, and the drow did", so they factually have reached the point of extinction. multiple times at least.

Kender as have been said should have been exterminated due numerous genocide attracting habits.

I'd say that's probably their biggest strength, actually.
On the Astral Plane, they:
-Can hide away very easily, as it is endless and empty

you do remember there is no stealth in space, right? (http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php)

In a world where the threat: "Hurt my child and his daddy demon will come to eat you!" isn't a lunacy but a credible answer? Probably this. Also Tieflings and Aasimars are possibly so snowflakey that each individual has its own story.

not possible, Tieflings and Aasimar are the result of extremely watered down celestial/fiendish genetics.

That, and Tieflings are logically, supposed to be the most common race on the material. Heaven doesnt have a celestial Outreach program unless Planetar, Solars, and Deva erase fiendish heritage by proximity. Succubi have existed for a long time, long enough that the original races should have died out due to that racial +10 charisma. because who wants the frumpy 10 when theres a perfectly willing and excellently spoken 20+ just asking to do it, no strings attached, "and" shes going to pick up the bar tab?

And remember, their time until maturity is only about 1/3 that of elves, so their predicament isn't quite as dire.

Incorrect. Dwarves and Gnomes are the last races to reach physical maturity of the PHB races in 3.5 Elves have the distinction of only reaching "mental maturity" at about 110 (its in RotW)(5th finally explains this as being the elf declaring themselves an adult as a result of having what they consider a sufficient amount of worldly knowledge and experience), while being physically mature at age 21. Now imagine a race which stays in the psycho-physiological state of a 16 year old, for nearly 90 years. Elves would probably have a higher reproduction rate then humans by simple virtue of having a teenager's rampantly overgrown immortality complex for a period of time longer then even modern humans get to experience on average.

Brookshw

2014-10-06, 10:05 AM

Mimics, talk about an unstable diet.

Ettina

2014-10-06, 10:16 AM

Mimics, talk about an unstable diet.

Surely adventurers aren't the only ones who'll be fooled by a mimic's tricks. If they're in a dungeon with other monsters, chances are they prey on the other guys as well.

The strategy of being an ambush predator who looks like something harmless or desirable is pretty successful in real life, why wouldn't it work in D&D?

Brookshw

2014-10-06, 10:42 AM

Surely adventurers aren't the only ones who'll be fooled by a mimic's tricks. If they're in a dungeon with other monsters, chances are they prey on the other guys as well.

The strategy of being an ambush predator who looks like something harmless or desirable is pretty successful in real life, why wouldn't it work in D&D?

Possibly however assuming a high pop area seems like the trick would be figured out fairly quickly, not to mention lots of dungeons are kinda going for the whole abandoned thing. Then there's the abysmal move rate. Sure, ambush predators do play but a bit of a richer prey environment. But maybe some locations are better suited. Then there's the whole reproduction thing, I'd assume mimics need to be fairly dispersed so that's another potential issue, but I don't recall offhand if they mate or not.

Oracle_of_Void

2014-10-06, 11:53 AM

Surely adventurers aren't the only ones who'll be fooled by a mimic's tricks. If they're in a dungeon with other monsters, chances are they prey on the other guys as well.

The strategy of being an ambush predator who looks like something harmless or desirable is pretty successful in real life, why wouldn't it work in D&D?

Only intelligent creatures would be interested in a treasure chest and many dungeons have unintelligent monsters running around. Sure, a goblin or an orc would fall for it, but not skeletons or oozes. Having a trait that only works in dungeons and on intelligent beings is a strange survival trait.

Anlashok

2014-10-06, 12:05 PM

The weirdness of races like those pretty much stem from the fact that there was a huge tonal shift for D&D 3e and they didn't really bother to change the bestiary to fit.

Have to remember that in old D&D, the Dungeon was less a catch-all for any enclosed area you explore and more its own habitat. You could discuss it the same way you discuss the American Plains or Taiga or South American Rainforests. So you have all these creatures adapted around the idea that they live in a spooky ruin and wandering schmucks adventurers come through constantly and serve as a primary food source.

Third and Fourth and Fifth editions play this a lot straighter (sans a couple books like Dungeonscape) but can't really be bothered to change how monsters work anymore for their less silly environment.

toapat

2014-10-06, 03:09 PM

Surely adventurers aren't the only ones who'll be fooled by a mimic's tricks. If they're in a dungeon with other monsters, chances are they prey on the other guys as well.

The strategy of being an ambush predator who looks like something harmless or desirable is pretty successful in real life, why wouldn't it work in D&D?

do remember that mimics dont exclusively come in the treasurechest variety. and that we probably could find some mimic somewhere on the non-Eberron material planes hiding not as a chest or house, but as a full fledged millenial redwood (because its that big and old). Its just that for their rate of digestion and metabolism, they have chosen to adapt themselves into treasurechests because a meal every few months is all they need.

exactly how they find eachother to reproduce is a whole other question

ellindsey

2014-10-06, 03:14 PM

People also forget that mimics are intelligent and capable of speech. If the old treasure chest trick isn't working, they're more than capable of coming up with different plans.

Rater202

2014-10-06, 04:34 PM

People also forget that mimics are intelligent and capable of speech. If the old treasure chest trick isn't working, they're more than capable of coming up with different plans.

Like sneaking into a certain variety of club and disguising themselves as a storage facility for ones personal belongings.

Honest Tiefling

2014-10-06, 05:06 PM

Like sneaking into a certain variety of club and disguising themselves as a storage facility for ones personal belongings.

I would not do this unless I had an immunity to poison. That'll be an adventure, a stoned/high Mimic wandering around.

Sith_Happens

2014-10-06, 05:06 PM

Like sneaking into a certain variety of club and disguising themselves as a storage facility for ones personal belongings.

Why do strip clubs need lockers?:smallconfused:

Honest Tiefling

2014-10-06, 05:10 PM

Why do strip clubs need lockers?:smallconfused:

Oh man, I thought of a different type of club entirely. Well then.

Rubik

2014-10-06, 05:10 PM

Oh man, I thought of a different type of club entirely.A spiked one, for baby seals?

What? You are a tiefling, aren't you?

Honest Tiefling

2014-10-06, 05:11 PM

For baby seals?

What? You are a tiefling, aren't you?

Look, if I was going around eating people, I'd start in the places where they don't struggle when being restrained!

Morty

2014-10-06, 05:14 PM

Orcs and goblinoids of various stripes and other conveniently evil low-level races. They're individually weak, stupidly aggressive and incapable of figuring out that maybe a lifestyle that leads to their being regularly massacred by adventurers isn't a very good one.

Shining Wrath

2014-10-06, 05:29 PM

Human history suggests that the first species driven to extinction when humans arrive are the high level predators, which tend to have slower breeding rates (because you have to teach young to hunt, not just turn them loose on the nearest plant) and pose more of a threat to human activities like livestock.

Given that, I'd nominate ogres. Large; dumb; treat humans as prey, to say nothing of livestock; and lack trollish regeneration or giant sheer giantness. Any tracker who can follow a deer trail is going to be able to follow ogres back to their smelly lairs, and they can be easily taken down by ranged fire as they emerge. You can also probably smoke them out and kill them as they emerge coughing from the flames.

Jeff the Green

2014-10-06, 05:36 PM

Human history suggests that the first species driven to extinction when humans arrive are the high level predators, which tend to have slower breeding rates (because you have to teach young to hunt, not just turn them loose on the nearest plant) and pose more of a threat to human activities like livestock.

Eh, it's more complicated than that. While historically large predators do go extinct when humans arrive, humans have tended to arrive when climate is changing, which (combined with hunting pressure) can make prey animals go extinct.

I'm not saying you're wrong about ogres, but more because they're directly hostile to humans, have no real defense against groups of humans like trolls do, and stupid.

malonkey1

2014-10-06, 05:43 PM

Alright, how about Dragons, on the complete opposite end. They're immortal, carnivorous creatures that can reproduce well into their old age. It's a wonder that they haven't simply eaten everything.

Rater202

2014-10-06, 05:48 PM

I would not do this unless I had an immunity to poison. That'll be an adventure, a stoned/high Mimic wandering around.

Why do strip clubs need lockers?:smallconfused:

Both wrong, but Sith is clossest.

he game AdventureQuest, while mostly family friendly, has a few referances that float over the heads of younger players.

Oneof them, a "Club" in the city of Krovesport, while not outright stated, is heavily implied to cater to a certain clientle.

You visit it during the Assassin class training questline, where it's mentiond that it's owned by a mutant with tentacles(who is also the mascot), offers massages, and when you enter, you're told to check your armor and weapons becuase "The only toys allowed are the ones already here."

Yeah, it's all but outright stated to be a brothel/sexclub.

the security in the storage room is a mimic with an extra-dimensional space inside-try to take something out that's not yours, and it eats you.

satcharna

2014-10-06, 05:55 PM

Alright, how about Dragons, on the complete opposite end. They're immortal, carnivorous creatures that can reproduce well into their old age. It's a wonder that they haven't simply eaten everything.Well, I don't see why they'd have much interest in doing that. They consider themselves above mortals already, and arrogance is one of their defining traits. They'd think of mortal civilisation more as scenery than as actual competitors for their continued existence. All their power simply serves to render them dangerous enough that, as long as they keep to themselves, mortals would be more content to let a sleeping dragon sleep than to risk getting rid of it.

As long as each party (dragon/mortals) keep to themselves, I imagine they'd be content to coexist since most dragons would prefer a peaceful existence with their hoard, and roasting the few adventurous humans that come for them isn't exciting enough for them to deal with the problem once and for all, because to them, the humans are like ants at a picnic. If ants get into your food, you swipe them off of it. You don't go to the anthill and put fire to it under any normal circumstance.

Most of the time you'd even avoid going on a picnic near an anthill in the first place, much like a dragon would, to me at least, prefer to place its lair as far from the mortal civilisations as it can because they're really more a nuisance than a threat to it.

...

2014-10-06, 06:25 PM

Thri-Kreen have the charisma problem as well.

Dvati, simply by the fact that they have very few decently sized settlements and when a single one dies, it kills two of them.

Or maybe that's not exactly iconic...

Also, semi-off topic: Am I the only one bothered by the amount of races that are said to have no pupils? The writers do know what pupils do, I would hope.

Well, Dvati are born in pairs too, so if two hook up, they have four children at once instead of one.

As for Thri-Kreen, I'd say that they survive on the virtue of no one actually paying attention to them until they get to the epic levels.

weckar

2014-10-06, 06:29 PM

Humans, if only because of magical cross-race venereal diseases...

LTwerewolf

2014-10-06, 06:30 PM

Well, I don't see why they'd have much interest in doing that. They consider themselves above mortals already, and arrogance is one of their defining traits. They'd think of mortal civilisation more as scenery than as actual competitors for their continued existence. All their power simply serves to render them dangerous enough that, as long as they keep to themselves, mortals would be more content to let a sleeping dragon sleep than to risk getting rid of it.

As long as each party (dragon/mortals) keep to themselves, I imagine they'd be content to coexist since most dragons would prefer a peaceful existence with their hoard, and roasting the few adventurous humans that come for them isn't exciting enough for them to deal with the problem once and for all, because to them, the humans are like ants at a picnic. If ants get into your food, you swipe them off of it. You don't go to the anthill and put fire to it under any normal circumstance.

Most of the time you'd even avoid going on a picnic near an anthill in the first place, much like a dragon would, to me at least, prefer to place its lair as far from the mortal civilisations as it can because they're really more a nuisance than a threat to it.

I think their point was that dragons are apex predators and that they'd devour everything and destroy their own food source.