An Awakened Raven Wizard (Formerly a Familiar)?

[JonathonWilder]

I am considering an awakened raven character, formerly the familiar of a master wizard. He decided to become a wizard so as to honor his old master when she died.

My questions are as follows:
1. Does the former familiar keep his bonuses, most importantly his intelligence bonus?
2. Would I add the 3d6 intellence bonus because of the Awaken spell?
3. Can I, or should I have these bonuses to combine?
4. If so, should I made sure that the intelligence is no higher then 18 or 20, so as to avoid unbalance that can come come having a higher Intelligence?

I ask these questions because the familiar of lets say a level 20 wizard has an Intelligence of 15, adding 3d6 and you have anywhere from an 18 to 33 Intelligence.
((Nevermind these questions, seems former familiars don't keep bonuses))

Yet another note is the fact that a raven only has a strength of 2, which will hurt... alot. He would have to ask the other party members to carry any supplies or coins and can mostly only help a party through spells and being a winged spy. He will be no help at all in combat... unless the raven uses a polymorph spell to take human form?

There are many things to consider but if possible I would like this to work..

[Seerow]

The int the familiar gets is part of the familiar bond. If he's no longer a familiar, he doesn't get that bonus, or any of the other familiar perks (for example you don't get to keep HP = 1/2 a 20th level Wizard's HP either).

[JonathonWilder]

The int the familiar gets is part of the familiar bond. If he's no longer a familiar, he doesn't get that bonus, or any of the other familiar perks (for example you don't get to keep HP = 1/2 a 20th level Wizard's HP either).
Good, that simplifies things.

Any recommendations for a raven that was formerly a familiar gifted to keep his intelligentce by being awakened?

[Gnome Alone]

Probably better to focus on things that don't rely too much on Caster Level, since an awakened raven will have 3 HD. Summons and buffs spring to mind.

[JonathonWilder]

Probably better to focus on things that don't really too much on Caster Level, since an awakened raven will have 3 HD. Summons and buffs spring to mind.
You mean rely not really right?

They would gain hit points through class levels though.

A raven summoning monsters from across th planes would interesting.
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What of illusion, divination, and enchantments?

[Daishain]

There isn't a lot of hard data on what occurs when a familiar's master dies.

Some, like Seerow above, are of the opinion that it simply reverts to being an animal. This is both boring and unrealistic in my opinion. After all, we're talking about a creature whose mind and body were fundamentally altered by magic, and remained in that state for decades or even centuries. For it to have no lasting impact at all is less than appropriate.

And then there is the question of what kind of other lasting changes a master may have granted their familiar. For instance, I would expect most wizards to seek to expand their familiar's abilities, at least eventually. After all, they have a perfectly loyal companion, why not make it so they can be of service in a larger number of situations?

This stance is rather supported by the Tibbits. An entire race of awakened shapeshifting cats who are officially descended from familiars. In fact, this is one direction you could go. Take a look at the features of the Tibbit, and reshape them to fit an avian background rather than a feline one. This would be thematically appropriate, and it neatly bypasses the strength issue. If however you wanted the character to be a pure raven (ie no humanoid form), give this one a pass.

Couple other points:
-I would avoid any scheme that could have you ending up with more than 20 base intelligence, much less more than 30.
-Another starting point might be anthropomorphic raven, you could accept or reject the physical changes, and just take the abilities. It might be more suited to a cleric or druid, but a bit of extra wisdom certainly doesn't hurt a wizard.
-You have got to deal with or bypass the somatic components issue. A raven's claws are dexterous enough for basic tool use, but I doubt they would be up to the task of expressing arcane gestures.

[Honest Tiefling]

I assume that someone on this forum has found a way to apply templates or the like to a raven. I think it would stand to reason that if this one familiar continued their master's work, they were pretty special to begin with.

Heck, maybe the master took Improved Familiar? There might be something on that list that can be re-fluffed into a raven.

[Gnome Alone]

You mean rely not really right?

They would gain hit points through class levels though.

A raven summoning monsters from across th planes would interesting.
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What of illusion, divination, and enchantments?

Crap, yes I did mean "rely." I have changed it to make meself look less stupid.

HP from class levels isn't what I meant, so much as that the raven's racial hit die and the two more magical beast hit dice from the awaken spell will delay the wizard's spell progression by three spell levels, and dampen the DCs - including, yeah, enchantments and some illusions. Though as always, good ol' Image spells that people never interact with to allow a saving throw anyway oughtta be good.

[JonathonWilder]

-snip-
Thank you this, it is both helpful and more to what I want to see.

I could see your suggestions working and making lot of sense, it alsi does make it more interesting.

Onto your consideration of somatic components is a frustrating one, though apart from DM fiat I don't have an answer.


I think it would stand to reason that if this one familiar continued their master's work, they were pretty special to begin with.

Heck, maybe the master took Improved Familiar? There might be something on that list that can be re-fluffed into a raven.
I agree

On Improved Familiar no I have not considered that feat.


-snip-
Hmm, well Wizards are considered OP by many. There even being the arguing that Wizards can become god-like in their power and completely overshadow other players so perhaps a level penalty is not so bad?

Still given all the disadvatages of using an awakened raven wizard, perhaps a few freebies could be allowed/offered.

The Magical Knack trait could be helpful.

[Gnome Alone]

Oh yeah, I ain't even arguing against it - I'm sure you'll be fine; you'll still be a wizard 'n all. Just thinking about how to counteract the disadvantages a bit.

Actually, just the other day, I rolled up an awakened wolf druid (with a wolf companion, natch); wouldn't even get to take a single level of druid until ECL 5, but I think the high speed and tripping and still being a flipping druid in the first place would still make it viable. As long as it wasn't some ludicrously hi-op game where I'd need to squeeze in every last advantage possible just to survive.

[JonathonWilder]

Oh, just considered, but uping the size of the raven from tiny to small would help with the low strength and consitution. From Str 2 and Con 8 to Str 10 and Con 12

Giving the raven the Dire Creature could also help.

[Daishain]

Oh, just considered, but uping the size of the raven from tiny to small would help with the low strength and consitution. From Str 2 and Con 8 to Str 10 and Con 12.

I mentioned the anthropomorphic template earlier. Not quite the same thing, but it would technically solve most of these issues. According to the chart in Savage Species, an anthropomorphic raven played as a PC would be a small creature, no LA, no natural AC, -6 Str, +2Dex, +4 Wis, -4Cha, a land speed of 10, and a flight speed of 20 (poor), it would also gain humanoid arms and hands, though exactly how they would work with its present limbs is not defined. The raven's claw attacks remain unchanged, but go up in damage due to the size increase. Its other abilities remain unchanged, aside from tacking 60' darkvision onto the list. You also gain the monstrous humanoid type.

You can probably also justify an appropriate Int boost due to former status as a familiar (Perhaps shift 2 points from Wis over to Int)

Of course, the big drawback is you're an obvious freak of nature, you can probably expect a fair bit of... misunderstandings when encountering others, and the low charisma score won't help.

[JonathonWilder]

I mentioned the anthropomorphic template earlier. Not quite the same thing, but it would technically solve most of these issues. According to the chart in Savage Species, an anthropomorphic raven played as a PC would be a small creature, no LA, no natural AC, -6 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Wis, -4 Cha, a land speed of 10, and a flight speed of 20 (poor).
Hmm those abilities bonus and penalties could work for a small intelligent raven, keeping movement would be left th same though I may see to keeping as is with maneuverability going down no more than one level.
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Base Stats with 20 Point Buy: Str12, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 14
Final Stats: Str 6, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 17, Wis 14, Cha 10

Also with a little refluffing it could be said unless his wings are bound he is considered to have the somatic components needed to cast spells. Perhaps making use of special flying patterns or he can just magically cast spells without making an special movements.

Or perhaps also a short range at will mage hand?

[Gnome Alone]

Of course, the big drawback is you're an obvious freak of nature, you can probably expect a fair bit of... misunderstandings when encountering others, and the low charisma score won't help.

Do not meddle in the affairs of bird wizards, for they are quick to fly away and summon demons to kill you.

[JonathonWilder]

Do not meddle in the affairs of bird wizards, for they are quick to fly away and summon demons to kill you.

Laughs, very funny... the potentially also very true. Particularly those birds that served as familiars and took on th same path later on.

Why? Because they have insight and experiance in learning magic from serving their master, though they also have a long ways to go before becoming their master's equal.

[Bullet06320]

Also with a little refluffing it could be said unless his wings are bound he is considered to have the somatic components needed to cast spells. Perhaps making use of special flying patterns or he can just magically cast spells without making an special movements.

Surrogate Spellcasting (Savage Species, p. 39) that takes care of the spellcasting for somatic and verbal components

[JonathonWilder]

Surrogate Spellcasting (Savage Species, p. 39) that takes care of the spellcasting for somatic and verbal components
That... is extremely helpful, thank you. I will of course be taking this feat at first level.

Hmm, now the biggest problem is a raven's natural hit dice and getting a decent intelligent need for being a wizard.

The Awaken spell offers no guarantee on this with it being 2+3d6, while the Anthromorphic template actually gives a - 2 penalty to Intelligence. Annoyingly, it seem this templete gives all animals turned humanoids a -2 intelligence. Even the fox, called cunning in its own description and with the spell called Fox's Cunning, gets this penalty..

[SinsI]

I'd treat former Familiars as Simulacrums - you keep all your abilities, including HD and Int bonuses, even if your companion dies.
Familiars are Magical Beasts, they can't be Awakened.

[JonathonWilder]

I'd treat former Familiars as Simulacrums - you keep all your abilities, including HD and Int bonuses, even if your companion dies.
Familiars are Magical Beasts, they can't be Awakened.

I apologize but can you give me a source for this? Others have told me that when a familiar is no longer in service to its' master, either by being released from the wizard's service or by the wizard dying, they are no longer a magical beast but become an animal again. This being the reason why they lose all their abilities... counting the intelligence bonus.

If they get to keep their abilities and bonuses fine, I can work with that, if not though I need to give them sentience and intelligence some other way.