[3.5] Official Rule Variants from Unearthed Arcana

[EnnPeeCee]

I've been looking through the adventuring rules variants in Unearthed Arcana, and found a couple of them that sound like they would be healthy additions to the game. However, having never actually used any of the variants, I'm hesitant to try them with my group since I don't know if they actually improve the game or not. I wanted to ask the playground to see if anyone else has tried running games with these variants, and whether or not they helped the game, before I try introducing them to my group.

Specifically, these are the ones I was interested in:

Bell Curve Rolls, where you roll 3d6 instead of d20s. I like the idea that characters are able to perform more consistently, I tend to get frustrated when the entire group of adventurers have a single goblin cornered but fail to hit it for 10 turns in a row due to rolling poorly. But at the same time, I understand that it is usually the extreme high and low rolls that make the game interesting. I'm also concerned about the game balance, since dnd was designed with the d20 in mind. Has anyone tried using this (or similar) rule variant in their game? I'm guessing the answer is going to be that if I want to use 3d6, I should play a game other than dnd, but I still wanted to ask.

Vitality and Wound Points, where health is divided into vitality points that are easy to lose/regain, and wound points that are harder to lose/regain. It seems to me that this would make it easier for players to endure through low-threat fights and encounters and not need to stop and rest after everything. With a little bit of tweaking to how fast vitality points heal themselves, I could see players feeling like they don't actually need a healer in the group (I know there are ways around it as is, but my group is pretty low-optimization and always bring a healer). This system could get confusing though with two different types of hp. Is there a better way to handle light vs deep wounds, or is this just something that doesn't work with dnd?

Those are the main two that I was interested in trying and wanted to find out what other people's experiences with them have been. Also, if there are any other big rule-variants that you think are good to use.

Thanks for the input,
EnnPeeCee

[Threadnaught]

I'm personally interested in using Vitality/Wound Points for Assassin's Creed style political intrigue Campaigns.

It simultaneously adds more and less survivability. Depending on the situation, and who's dealing damage.

[Fax Celestis]

I used vp/wp in a social/espionage campaign. I coupled it with facing rules and a house rule that sneak attack didn't deal d6s: instead it dealt 2 damage directly to VP per die.

[VoxRationis]

One thing I like about a lot of the alternate hit point or damage rules in Unearthed Arcana is that they make it more possible for a good hit to kill a major hero. It's kind of hard to get a lot of the drama from stories when your fighter is simply not going to feel threatened by someone holding a crossbow at them.

[Psyren]

While I haven't tried 3d6 in D&D/PF in particular, it's worked so well in other 3d6 games (like Dragon Age) that I'd feel comfortable endorsing it here. Reading over the rules it seems like they've accounted for most conversions.

One of the things I would add is the Psionic Focus "take 15" ability, would probably be 13 or 14 in 3d6.

[AmberVael]

Bell Curve Rolls, where you roll 3d6 instead of d20s. I like the idea that characters are able to perform more consistently, I tend to get frustrated when the entire group of adventurers have a single goblin cornered but fail to hit it for 10 turns in a row due to rolling poorly. But at the same time, I understand that it is usually the extreme high and low rolls that make the game interesting. I'm also concerned about the game balance, since dnd was designed with the d20 in mind. Has anyone tried using this (or similar) rule variant in their game? I'm guessing the answer is going to be that if I want to use 3d6, I should play a game other than dnd, but I still wanted to ask.

Having played with some systems that use bell curves, particular a system that uses bell curves with a d6, I really don't recommend this variant for D&D. A system not designed with a bell curve in mind, or indeed, a system that doesn't fully account for its effects, can run into some very major problems.

The problem is this- greater consistency in results sounds good, but in practice it often isn't. It means that a minor difference in modifiers will be a much, much larger difference in probability, which can lead to some problems when you're trying to make a game for a party rather than a single person. Things like saving throws can vary wildly between characters, and passing one can mean life or death... and with a bell curve, a +5 difference in saving throws can translate to either one person passing basically every time or one person failing every single time depending on the saving throw. It becomes difficult to challenge and threaten all characters without making it too easy or too hard for some members of the party.

[Calimehter]

I had some fun with the wound/vitality system in a brief E6 campaign. It worked out quite well for our small party, since there was no need for continuous access to healing . . . though there was a tradeoff one session when one of our PCs took a nasty crit and required a trip back to town to get healed up. Healing becomes an occasional, interesting part of the story rather than just an accounting chore to go through after each and every battle.

[Gemini476]

While I haven't tried 3d6 in D&D/PF in particular, it's worked so well in other 3d6 games (like Dragon Age) that I'd feel comfortable endorsing it here. Reading over the rules it seems like they've accounted for most conversions.

One of the things I would add is the Psionic Focus "take 15" ability, would probably be 13 or 14 in 3d6.
More like twelve or thirteen - getting a 15 or more on 1d20 is 30%, and 13 or more on 3d6 is 26%ish.

But yeah, it makes rolls more reliable. That's a fairly good thing, in my opinion - a d20 is way too swingy for my tastes.


One thing I'd suggest taking a look at would be the Armor as Damage Resistance rules - it gives fighty types a bit more survivability in the early game, and IMHO works fairly well with the vp/wp system.

[bekeleven]

Having played with some systems that use bell curves, particular a system that uses bell curves with a d6, I really don't recommend this variant for D&D. A system not designed with a bell curve in mind, or indeed, a system that doesn't fully account for its effects, can run into some very major problems.

The problem is this- greater consistency in results sounds good, but in practice it often isn't. It means that a minor difference in modifiers will be a much, much larger difference in probability, which can lead to some problems when you're trying to make a game for a party rather than a single person. Things like saving throws can vary wildly between characters, and passing one can mean life or death... and with a bell curve, a +5 difference in saving throws can translate to either one person passing basically every time or one person failing every single time depending on the saving throw. It becomes difficult to challenge and threaten all characters without making it too easy or too hard for some members of the party.

This 100%.* I'm running a party, for instance, where one character's grapple roll is more than 20 points higher than another's. This means that if I throw in a grappler that can go even with him, it beats the other character 100% of the time. To beat someone at a task 90% of the time you need +18.

Now, not only does the +20 difference move to +16, but the 90% odds move to about +10.

Basically, it stratifies rolls hard. Buyer beware.


*Maybe 90%, realistically. Also, these statistics simplified and probably wrong, but you get where I'm going. 3&18 have .46% each, 4&17 have 1.38% each, 5&16 have 2.77% each. Meaning the inner 90.78% of rolls spreads from 6 to 15, instead of from 2 to 19.

[Fouredged Sword]

I love a game that mixes class defense bonuses with armor as DR and the wp/vp system. It works best with E6.

[EnnPeeCee]

Sounds like I was on the right track with the Bell Curve rolls; sounds good in concept, but dnd just isn't designed to use them. It might be interesting to allow players the choice of which they want to roll, d20 or 3d6. Maybe use 3d6 instead of being able to take a 10 on rolls.

Those of you that have used the vp/wp system, did you run the rules as-is from the book? Or did you make any modifications to the rules? One thing I worry about from this system is how critical hits completely bypass the vitality points. I know its meant to make crits more dangerous, but it seems to me that it would cause a whole lot of unavoidable random player deaths, and that doesn't sound like fun.

I did look at the Armor as DR rules, another one that looked interesting to me. I like the idea of creating separation between dodging attacks and toughing through attacks, but I worry about the balance of the game with it. It seems to me that the lower AC would really end up hurting you in the long run, especially at higher levels when the little bit of DR doesn't make much difference. But I haven't actually used it, so if it works well, I might think about implementing it. Like above, when you've used it, did you use it as-is, or modify it at all?

[Baroknik]

I actually had decent success with the 3d6 system in an e6 game since bonuses never got that high.
You could also try changing all modifiers to the 3d6 roll to an extra die (but still only keep 3). This equates to about a +1 or +2, iirc, but caps the bonus to an 18, so that someone with 0 skill always has a chance to tie.

[tyriuth]

Bell Curve Rolls, where you roll 3d6 instead of d20s. I like the idea that characters are able to perform more consistently, I tend to get frustrated when the entire group of adventurers have a single goblin cornered but fail to hit it for 10 turns in a row due to rolling poorly. But at the same time, I understand that it is usually the extreme high and low rolls that make the game interesting. I'm also concerned about the game balance, since dnd was designed with the d20 in mind. Has anyone tried using this (or similar) rule variant in their game? I'm guessing the answer is going to be that if I want to use 3d6, I should play a game other than dnd, but I still wanted to ask.

Having played Traveller for quite some time (a system based off 2d6); I can say that it works really well, but is for a more realistic game. D&D is one of those systems which I like the players being heroes.

[Squark]

The variants should work for an E6 game, although you should be careful with bonuses and damage dice in the late game. Wound points don't scale well- The bog standard CR 3 Ogre does 2d8+7 damage- 16 damage on average, which will probably drop the party fighter. The giants they fight after they've gotten a few bonus feats? Eep. Heaven help your party if one of them buys a falchion or scythe, because a crit is almost certain to leave a player ready for a coup de grace next turn. Power attack also turns crits into instagibs.

So, just be aware of these things.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, the wound point system works well with low level play and with the armor as DR system.

The reason I like to play E6 with wound points, class defense bonuses, and armor as DR is that there are some interesting interactions between the systems.

First, heavy armor is there to protect you from critical hits. The DR applies to all damage, so wearing adimantium platemail is a flat DR 7/-. A lucky crit hurts the fighter FAR less than the gish running around with armor boosting spells (they don't grant DR). Keen weapons make gishes run scared. Mundane fighters need more nice things.

Second - People tend to survive being disables regardless of how hard they are hit. Great fortitude and a higher emphasis on con means that a DC 15 fort save is easy for a level 6 fighter. They can get +9-11 on fort saves, so they can fight aggressively with monsters that punch WAY over their ECL. This makes for fun big monster fights where the fighter feels like they have a real reason to be there, as they are the only party member who can take those kinds of hits.

Third, the class defense bonus and armor as DR gives the fighter a reason to exist. They get an extra +2 AC and DR 2/- over barbarians, so a 6th level fighter is a valid option in a core game.

[Snowbluff]

3d6 is the worst option of the d20 system. People who don't crank numbers have a significantly worse time hitting anything. 0/10 would chide for murmuring it again.

[Phelix-Mu]

Bell curve maths may also evade a significantly larger proportion of players' math skills than d20, which can be problematic with players with low system mastery that can't really make the math work for them (especially if they are gravitating toward classes where that is a problem, since those lurk in odd places *cough* monk *cough*). So, doubly buyer beware, because it could mean even more work for DM/players that do understand to help elucidate and build for those that don't.

[Squark]

Yeah, the wound point system works well with low level play and with the armor as DR system.

The reason I like to play E6 with wound points, class defense bonuses, and armor as DR is that there are some interesting interactions between the systems.

First, heavy armor is there to protect you from critical hits. The DR applies to all damage, so wearing adimantium platemail is a flat DR 7/-. A lucky crit hurts the fighter FAR less than the gish running around with armor boosting spells (they don't grant DR). Keen weapons make gishes run scared. Mundane fighters need more nice things.

Second - People tend to survive being disables regardless of how hard they are hit. Great fortitude and a higher emphasis on con means that a DC 15 fort save is easy for a level 6 fighter. They can get +9-11 on fort saves, so they can fight aggressively with monsters that punch WAY over their ECL. This makes for fun big monster fights where the fighter feels like they have a real reason to be there, as they are the only party member who can take those kinds of hits.

Third, the class defense bonus and armor as DR gives the fighter a reason to exist. They get an extra +2 AC and DR 2/- over barbarians, so a 6th level fighter is a valid option in a core game.

Eh, heavy armor made of special materials should only show up very, very late in an E6 campaign- It's 10,500 GP for a suit of Mithril Full Plate, and another 6000 for Adamantine, the latter of which is more than a 6th level character's WBL, and a huge chunk of a 9th level character's wealth (1 level above where endgame E6 ends up). I mean, you might be wearing it shortly before a conflict with an Archdemon, Ancient Dragon Emperor, or an unleashed Titan (Actually an Aspect of Orcus, Mature Adult White Dragon, or a Cloud giant stat-wise, but E6 lends itself to re-naming things), but your average E6 fighter is using regular plate mail after he hits 4th level, and apart from enchanting it, that's probably what he's going to use for most of the campaign.

Also, being disabled is a lose-lose situation. Any damage or a standard action bumps you down to dieing (and thus being vulnerable to a coup de grace), and unless you're a cleric, the only way you're going to heal involves multiple rounds worth of actions (move action to retrieve a potion or wand, then a standard action next turn to use it), and provokes an attack of opportunity.

I'm not trying to say Vitality and Wound points can't work, but, well, there's a reason WotC ditched them when they updated their Star Wars RPG- they can be very lethal (Although the Star Wars Revised Core Rulebook just had people die at -10 wound points, so their math in the preview is a bit different for the unearthed arcana version)

[Fouredged Sword]

Eh, heavy armor made of special materials should only show up very, very late in an E6 campaign- It's 10,500 GP for a suit of Mithril Full Plate, and another 6000 for Adamantine, the latter of which is more than a 6th level character's WBL, and a huge chunk of a 9th level character's wealth (1 level above where endgame E6 ends up). I mean, you might be wearing it shortly before a conflict with an Archdemon, Ancient Dragon Emperor, or an unleashed Titan (Actually an Aspect of Orcus, Mature Adult White Dragon, or a Cloud giant stat-wise, but E6 lends itself to re-naming things), but your average E6 fighter is using regular plate mail after he hits 4th level, and apart from enchanting it, that's probably what he's going to use for most of the campaign.

Also, being disabled is a lose-lose situation. Any damage or a standard action bumps you down to dieing (and thus being vulnerable to a coup de grace), and unless you're a cleric, the only way you're going to heal involves multiple rounds worth of actions (move action to retrieve a potion or wand, then a standard action next turn to use it), and provokes an attack of opportunity.

I'm not trying to say Vitality and Wound points can't work, but, well, there's a reason WotC ditched them when they updated their Star Wars RPG- they can be very lethal (Although the Star Wars Revised Core Rulebook just had people die at -10 wound points, so their math in the preview is a bit different for the unearthed arcana version)

Eh. You see it earlier with the mundane crafting rules. You can get it at 1/3rd the cost. That makes it much more reasonable. Also, with the above rules applied, characters are fighting monsters at higher than normal CR and a hard cap on the types of magic items they can buy. There are only so many +2 weapons you have a use for.

Still, normal plate mail is DR 4/-, enchant it to +1 and get the DR armor crystal and you are looking at DR 7/-. Getting replacement armor crystals means not worrying about the 10 hits per crystal issue.

But yeah, getting clobbered by a giant means you don't get back up again until someone heals you. On the other hand, with a DC 15 fort save (and you can get a flat +14 to fort fairly easily with feats, items, a good con, and a good fort save) you won't actually die unless the party TPK's.