Problem with Monks?

[Desiani]

I'm DMing a game where I have 5 people of various experience levels in PNP gaming. The party comp so far is 2 cavaliers, one is a Goblin Beastrider with a focus on the 'Can't Touch This' Turtle. The other being a gnome Base Cav with the intent on horse archery. The others being 2 Goblins a Alchemist and a Fighter. The last player being a Hobgoblin Monk.

This group isn't big on optimization, it's more of a deomonstration that race isn't the end all be all for a class. My issue is that the two cavaliers are making a big fuss that the Monk is... playing a monk. They keep on bringing up the tier list and how that Monk is such a 'looser class.' This is obviously making the Monk distressed as this is her first PnP game and just wants to punch stuff with her fists.

I am torn on what to do to remedy this situation. I won't make her switch classes... it's not right to not let her enjoy the game. I just don't know how to deal with the two players. Mainly because one of them is my wife and brother in law. >.>

I am leaning toward telling them that I won't allow them to play with that attitude, but would there be any other options that y'all have done with similiar situations?

[Rickshaw]

Well playing a monk can mean many things... Are you talking about her role playing or her class mechanics?

my biggest suggestion would be to avoid confrontation if you can. It will just drive the player further away if there is a big dust up about her character.

Honestly though, talk to them about being bully's and tell them they need to stop. It's your table, but remember Rule number one of DMing is that real life comes first. If the game is affecting actual relationships, maybe it's time to find a new game or new players.

[Psyren]

The group as a whole sounds low-tier (Cavaliers are not much better off save for the mount, so the whole situation is a bit silly - he who lives in a glass house etc.) The question then becomes "is the monk actually having trouble keeping up, or are the cavalier players just badmouthing the monk before anything has actually happened combat-wise?"

Either way, we need a bit more information. What kind of monk is your hobgoblin going for? Does he want to be a grappler/controller with Tetori? Buff the party with Sensei? Be ranged dps with a Zen Archer? Focus on light, fast strikes with Flowing Monk? Does the player have no concept in mind at all? Is Qinggong in there anywhere, and if so, which class features are being replaced, and with what?

I will definitely echo Rickshaw's last few sentences.

[nedz]

Player > Build > Class; so a Monk can be relatively effective, if the Player is.

Also, this is an OOC problem — which we probably can't help you with.

You could try telling them to stop metagaming/bullying etc. — or simply that you are bored with this old line ?
IDK if any of this would work, you know the players much better than we ever will.

[Oko and Qailee]

Honestly this is a talk you need to have with the other two players. It can be a pretty casual

"Guy just let her have fun the way she wants to."

[Desiani]

The group as a whole sounds low-tier (Cavaliers are not much better off save for the mount, so the whole situation is a bit silly - he who lives in a glass house etc.) The question then becomes "is the monk actually having trouble keeping up, or are the cavalier players just badmouthing the monk before anything has actually happened combat-wise?"

Either way, we need a bit more information. What kind of monk is your hobgoblin going for? Does he want to be a grappler/controller with Tetori? Buff the party with Sensei? Be ranged dps with a Zen Archer? Focus on light, fast strikes with Flowing Monk? Does the player have no concept in mind at all? Is Qinggong in there anywhere, and if so, which class features are being replaced, and with what?

I will definitely echo Rickshaw's last few sentences.

She is a base monk who is going with the Two Weapon Fighting set of feats so she can constantly use both fists to punch stuff.

I've called the group via skype, as well as had a long talk with my wife. I essentially told the group that any more outbursts like that givea the new player a bad impression of the PnP community when it's her first time playing. I told them that I will look away for this time, but if another Metagame or OOC incident like this that would make some one not have fun, I would ask them to leave the table and be unable to play for the majority of this campaign...

Surprisingly the thought of being thrown out of a game for this behavior was something that Meek and Mild Me wasn't thought to have even been an idea! Lol.

So that's been settled... why do people have this view on monk? O.o

[Urpriest]

She is a base monk who is going with the Two Weapon Fighting set of feats so she can constantly use both fists to punch stuff.

Not that it really matters, but the designers of PF don't want you doing this. They're convinced that Flurry of Blows is already TWF.

It's not a rule I would impose, especially given the casual nature of your group. But something to be aware of.

[Desiani]

Not that it really matters, but the designers of PF don't want you doing this. They're convinced that Flurry of Blows . A lo already TWF.

It's not a rule I would impose, especially given the casual nature of your group. But something to be aware of.

O.o Why do they not want you doing this? I see it as feature to use because you get more punches at an earlier level... assuming your using it on a lower level mob because of the penalties

[Psyren]

As Urpriest mentioned, Flurry effectively gives you TWF for free (and you still get your full strength bonus on each hit rather than 0.5) so there's no reason for her to take TWF at all.

Again, in a party like the one you mentioned she should be fine as long as she buys the right items. Consider showing her the Qinggong archetype to dump some of the more useless abilities like Slow Fall and High Jump.

[Necroticplague]

Not that it really matters, but the designers of PF don't want you doing this. They're convinced that Flurry of Blows is already TWF.

I don't think TWFing your unarmed strike works either, but for a different reason. After all, a monk can make his UAS with any part of his body, so it doesn't really make much sense for more hands to provide more of it. Plus, when you TWF, you have to be using TWO weapons. Your UAS is one weapon, so TWFing with it alone would be like combining THF and TWF by weilding a greatsword and going "My main hand will be my greatsword. My off-hand weapon will be that same greatsword".

[Psyren]

I don't think TWFing your unarmed strike works either, but for a different reason. After all, a monk can make his UAS with any part of his body, so it doesn't really make much sense for more hands to provide more of it. Plus, when you TWF, you have to be using TWO weapons. Your UAS is one weapon, so TWFing with it alone would be like combining THF and TWF by weilding a greatsword and going "My main hand will be my greatsword. My off-hand weapon will be that same greatsword".

You can explicitly TWF with unarmed strike (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qie) in PF. The issue is that (a) this won't stack with flurry and (b) flurry is just a better way to do this anyway since you get boosted to full BAB, get the same number of bonus attacks that the full TWF line would have given you, and lastly, you get full strength (or Dex, in then case of Agile) to damage instead of half.

Ergo, a monk can TWF with unarmed strike, but there's usually no reason for them to do so. This does matter however for other folks using unarmed strike, e.g. Ninjas with Unarmed Combat Mastery.

[LTwerewolf]

You could always allow the scorpion kama from MIC into your campaign. Would let her twf and still get the uas damage.

[Psyren]

You could always allow the scorpion kama from MIC into your campaign. Would let her twf and still get the uas damage.

Again, you can TWF with unarmed strike in PF, so there's no need for this item :smalltongue:

[LTwerewolf]

Does pathfinder allow for enchanting of your uas though?

[Odessa333]

Monks get a lot of hate as they are 'mad' or multiple ability dependent. They want STR to hit, DEX and WIS for AC, and then you need hit points, etc, etc.

Me? I think monks get so much hate as they are TOO powerful, and others 'be hating' to use the phrase.

I play a monk in a different 'monster' campaign, with half-fiends and undead races. And of the four PC's, my monk is the most powerful and feared. I use the 'four winds' arch type, Dragon style, and the vital strike to deliver scary amounts of damage. Is it the most optimized? Heck if I know. But it works and I have fun. If your player has fun, I wouldn't worry about it.

If your monk's is being mocked for not doing enough damage (or is feeling discouraged for not being optimized right or something) there are solutions. An item like a monk's robe or stonefist gloves would help, as would spells like lead blades, strong jaw, and animal aspect: gorilla. Find a few scrolls/potions of those, and your monk's damage potential sky rockets.

Monks are an amazing class, so I wouldn't let anyone say otherwise.

[Red Fel]

Does pathfinder allow for enchanting of your uas though?

Oh, there are (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-mighty-fists) ways (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/body-wrap-of-mighty-strikes).

[Psyren]

Does pathfinder allow for enchanting of your uas though?

See the links Red Fel posted - also, spells that enhance both manufactured and natural weapons will work on monks (e.g. GMF and GMW.)

Monks are fine in PF as long as they have appropriate wealth. The few weird abilities they have left can be dropped with Qinggong.

They even got pounce (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-charge-combat) recently.

[LTwerewolf]

The body wrap was something I wasn't aware of, that's pretty cool. Might have to offer that to my players if any of them want to play monks.


They even got pounce (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-charge-combat) recently.

That pummeling charge, is that really what it sounds like? "For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any)." Does that mean the first attack does the damage of the first attack, the second does the damage of the first and second, on top of the first that was already done?

[Psyren]

That pummeling charge, is that really what it sounds like? "For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any)." Does that mean the first attack does the damage of the first attack, the second does the damage of the first and second, on top of the first that was already done?

Not sure what you're asking exactly, but it basically works like pounce. You roll each attack to hit and add up all the damage (including your ability modifier each time.) This means it works quite well with Flurry since you get your full Strength mod (or Dex mod, again assuming an Agile Amulet) to each hit.

It's actually better than pounce, because if one hit crits and you confirm, ALL of them crit.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Hmm. Trying to think of a scenario where one wouldn't want to use that feat, in favor of rolling normally... Besides for some reason having an elemental attack on your UAS...

[Psyren]

Hmm. Trying to think of a scenario where one wouldn't want to use that feat, in favor of rolling normally... Besides for some reason having an elemental attack on your UAS...

There's a few:

1) You're already using another style feat (though why would you?) and you're not a MoMS.
2) Your DM takes the word "punch" literally, and you're not using unarmed strike.
3) You're not able to use a full-round action (for whatever reason.)

[Jacob.Tyr]

The body wrap was something I wasn't aware of, that's pretty cool. Might have to offer that to my players if any of them want to play monks.



That pummeling charge, is that really what it sounds like? "For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any)." Does that mean the first attack does the damage of the first attack, the second does the damage of the first and second, on top of the first that was already done?
It's sort of like Dead Shot. You're only making "one" attack, but you roll for every attack you could have made. You also deal damage as though as many of those attacks hit that would have hit.
Imagine a level 7 monk
Using Pummeling Style + Flurry of Blow(+5/+5/+0)
Roll at +5
Roll at +5
Roll at +0

For each one that hits, you roll damage. You then add up all the damage you've rolled.
You then use that damage as though you made a single attack, not three attacks.

[Psyren]

It also triggers the massive damage rules (since it's one attack) and is also very likely to overcome DR and hardness (again, one attack.)

So yeah, it's pretty much superior to pounce in nearly every way.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Can also be used with the Called Shots rules if those are being used, provided both feats are taken to make them part of a normal attack. Although, perhaps only the first would be necessary...

[Jacob.Tyr]

It also triggers the massive damage rules (since it's one attack) and is also very likely to overcome DR and hardness (again, one attack.)

So yeah, it's pretty much superior to pounce in nearly every way.
For extra Cheese, tell your DM that "punch" is defined as to "strike with a forward thrust". Use it with something like a keen rapier, crit every single round.

Even without that, though, it is way better than pounce. It's practically a feat tax if you want to play an unarmed character, as increased crit chance and pooling your damage to overcome DR as well as flurrying after a charge is so much better than... well not being able to do any of that.

[LTwerewolf]

It's sort of like Dead Shot. You're only making "one" attack, but you roll for every attack you could have made. You also deal damage as though as many of those attacks hit that would have hit.
Imagine a level 7 monk
Using Pummeling Style + Flurry of Blow(+5/+5/+0)
Roll at +5
Roll at +5
Roll at +0

For each one that hits, you roll damage. You then add up all the damage you've rolled.
You then use that damage as though you made a single attack, not three attacks.

That makes more sense. Were it the other way I would wonder why every uber charger wasn't a monk. Still pretty nice.

[Psyren]

Can also be used with the Called Shots rules if those are being used, provided both feats are taken to make them part of a normal attack. Although, perhaps only the first would be necessary...

No - a called shot is a full-round action and thus mutually exclusive with PS and PC.


For extra Cheese, tell your DM that "punch" is defined as to "strike with a forward thrust". Use it with something like a keen rapier, crit every single round.

Even without that, though, it is way better than pounce. It's practically a feat tax if you want to play an unarmed character, as increased crit chance and pooling your damage to overcome DR as well as flurrying after a charge is so much better than... well not being able to do any of that.

Well, it's not like DR was a significant barrier anyway due to ki strike or simply enhancing your fist. (In fact, monks have another advantage here - because they have ki strike to deal with various forms of DR and even hardness, they can rely on Greater Magic Weapon/Fang to enhance their fists instead of having to buy a true enhancement bonus.)

[Kudaku]

Pummeling Style is fantastic, but there are some situations where you will be better off making a normal flurry - like when striking through concealment.

[Greenish]

No - a called shot is a full-round action and thus mutually exclusive with PS and PC.He meant, with Improved and Greater Called Shot feats.

I'm not sure, but I think you could make a single called shot with Pummeling Style if you had said feats, since it's a single attack.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

He meant, with Improved and Greater Called Shot feats.

I'm not sure, but I think you could make a single called shot with Pummeling Style if you had said feats, since it's a single attack.

If using the Called Shot rules, this could be just... amazing. Causing a debilitating blow would be so much easier...

[squiggit]

Not sure that works. Improved Called Shot lets you replace an attack if you're making a full round or standard action that gives multiple attacks and pummeling style doesn't.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

You are making multiple attacks, and they count as one attack. You replace one of the attack rolls with a called shot, and the entire thing takes the benefit. If that doesn't work, you take Greater Called Shot and suck up the penalties, I guess.

[Greenish]

Not sure that works. Improved Called Shot lets you replace an attack if you're making a full round or standard action that gives multiple attacks and pummeling style doesn't.Greater Called Shot can be used "[w]henever you make an attack".

[squiggit]

You are making multiple attacks, and they count as one attack.
Nope. Pummeling Style is a unique full round action that gives you a single attack with multiple attack rolls, (edit: just checked again, they're not even attack rolls) not multiple attacks that all go off at once like clustered shots.


You replace one of the attack rolls with a called shot, and the entire thing takes the benefit. If that doesn't work, you take Greater Called Shot and suck up the penalties, I guess.
Greater would work fine though, since Greater works with any attack.

[Psyren]

Greater works, but even though you roll multiple times it's just one attack, so you'd only get one called shot. But yes, that is a quick and easy way to try and land a debilitating blow. (And of course, your chances of getting a crit with the "one attack" are much higher than normal.)

[animewatcha]

What level are these guys right now?

Giant snapping turtle is a somewhat good choice if you want a defensive mount that relies on natural armor to live ( and can swim. I'm new to pathfinder a bit so I may be wrong ). Looked at the cavalier class... Most on the abilities rely on charging, being mounted, and/or the target paying attention to you ( they suffer penalties if they don't, but no absolute forced compulsion to do so ). Is the combat taking place inside dungeons and what not or outside? Inside dungeons can mean restricted movement ( chasms, ledges ). Outside, hello difficult terrain be it natural or magical. Both the class and the turtle have a bad will save. Horse Archery has it's own problems. What kind of encounters are you throwing at these guys?

[Psyren]

Update:

Pummeling Style is Unarmed Strike only. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gw#v5748eaic9sfs) (You can still get it with a natural weapon though, if you grab Feral Combat Training.)

[Kudaku]

Or (arguably) close, natural, or monk weapons through Martial Versatility. Nice for human brawlers.

[Psyren]

Or (arguably) close, natural, or monk weapons through Martial Versatility. Nice for human brawlers.

Ah, forgot that feat - neat trick, that. Now we can falcon pawnch with brass knuckles/cestus.

[Extra Anchovies]

Ah, forgot that feat - neat trick, that. Now we can falcon pawnch with brass knuckles/cestus.

Or crit-fish with a katar (x4) and a cestus (19-20/x2).

[Ssalarn]

Honestly though, talk to them about being bully's and tell them they need to stop. It's your table, but remember Rule number one of DMing is that real life comes first. If the game is affecting actual relationships, maybe it's time to find a new game or new players.


100% the above.

That being said, the Cavalier is a lot like the Monk: it can be really sucky, or fairly good depending on the choices made during character creation. While neither class will ever be competing for "Most Powerful In Game", the Monk actually has the ability to climb up into Tier 3 with good archetype choices (Qinggong stacking with every other archetype goes a long way; tied to another good archetype like Sensei or Zen Archer you can get some really slick builds put together), something I don't believe Cavalier is capable of (I'm willing to be proven wrong if there's a Cavalier build out there that climbs out of Tier 4/5).

Basically, tell your guys to stop being jerks and remind them that those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.