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View Full Version : Speculation D&D Next as a Rogue-like (Brainstorming)



Lonely Tylenol
2014-10-05, 09:39 PM
Good afternoon Playground,

I have been tossing an idea around in my head for some time about the idea of playing D&D as, essentially, a roguelike, complete with random, procedurally-generated dungeons, single-player survivalist mentality, permadeath, and an occasionally insane difficulty. With the D&D Next core rulebooks on order for my girlfriend's birthday and the Basic Rules PDF on-hand, I've decided that I'm going to try and create a defined rule set for modifications a DM might make for a D&D Next roguelike, and then I will possibly extrapolate these rules to older editions with the addition of the Dungeon Master's Guide (which already makes such adaptations for the regular rule set), and then, possibly, other systems which don't have such options. This is not the final product (which will ideally be a presentation of the rules, benefits, and resources in a cohesive fashion), so much as it is a way of reaching out to the community here and brainstorming this.

First things first: a few resources that I believe might prove invaluable to a roguelike DM:
- Donjon d20 Random Dungeon Generator (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/dungeon/): a faithful random dungeon generator that might prove invaluable for roguelikes. Comes complete with name generator (so you can track the progress of each dungeon individually), different levels, and various customization options. Does not contain monsters. Generates a wandering monster table, and populates each room with traps, monsters, and treasure if you're not a dumb butt like me, and you scroll down!
- Wizards' Random Dungeon Generator (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/mapper/launcher.htm): from WotC itself, this random dungeon generator has a wide array of customization options, and includes an adventure setting option, which provides adventure hooks, populates the dungeon with monsters (from a number of different sources), and includes a wandering monster table. The dungeon population only references the HD/HP, CR, and source book of the monster, and appears to be for 3.5e, but the monsters could be adapted (or you could simply use the D&D Next Monster Manual in place of the 3.5 one, and reroll for creatures which don't exist in the manual).
- D&D Next Basic Rules PDF (http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/PlayerDnDBasicRules_v0.2.pdf): the PDF of the D&D Next Basic Rules. As player options go, D&D can be played as a roguelike completely from this PDF. It lacks customization options, but this is actually more conducive to the pick-up-and-play style that this game type is meant to entail.
- D&D Next Bestiary (https://sites.google.com/site/ddnextindex/5---bestiary): a bestiary of monsters which are, I assume, either from the Starter Kit or playtest. It is rather bare-bones, not an official source, and I caution against using it if books are available, but it does provide a playable resource for people who just want a pick-up-and-play experience (which this is intended to provide).

Next, for rules modifications, I am going to break this down into two difficulties ("normal" and "hard"):
All games:
- 27-point allotment for ability scores. No score can exceed 15 per point buy.
- All characters begin at level 1, with starting gear appropriate for their class (as outlined in Chapter 3) and nothing else.
- Character customization options (as outlined in Chapter 6) are disabled.
- For all intents and purposes, the game is considered to happen on a round-by-round basis unless the action the character takes (traversing a long hallway, searching a room) involves minutes of time.

Normal:
- When you level up (Chapter 1), you add the hit point total gained by leveling up to both your maximum and current hit point totals. This is considered a short rest for the purposes of resting and recovering abilities.
- Spellcasting classes (Chapter 3) gain the difference in spell slots between levels (for example, a 1st-level Cleric advancing to 2nd level gains 1 1st-level spell slot: the difference between 2 and 3. At 3rd level, that Cleric gains 1 1st-level spell slot and 2 2nd-level spell slots, and so on), but does not recover expended spell slots. Upon level-up, you are considered to have automatically prepared a new spell to account for the difference (either from increased level or increased ability score), but can only exchange old spells for new during a long rest.
- You are considered to have taken a short rest (Chapter 8) each time you level up, and are considered to have automatically expended your Hit Dice to match your maximum hit point increase with your current hit point increase. You may only expend one Hit Dice per short rest. You are allowed only one long rest per game (that is, until death or escape from the dungeon) - use it wisely.
- Food rules (Chapter 8) operate on a per hour basis. Eating resets the "hours without food" count to zero, and if done during a short rest, lowers your exhaustion level by 1. (For the purposes of resting, taking a break to eat the first available opportunity after you level up counts.)

Hard:
- When you level up (Chapter 1), you add the hit point total gained by leveling up to both your maximum and current hit point totals. This is not considered a short rest for the purposes of resting. You gain additional uses of an ability only if leveling up would grand additional uses of that ability between rests. For example, a Cleric would gain a second use of Channel Divinity at level 6, but would not regain the first use if it was already expended.
- Spellcasting classes (Chapter 3) gain the difference in spell slots between levels (for example, a 1st-level Cleric advancing to 2nd level gains 1 1st-level spell slot: the difference between 2 and 3. At 3rd level, that Cleric gains 1 1st-level spell slot and 2 2nd-level spell slots, and so on), but does not recover expended spell slots. Upon level-up, you are considered to have automatically prepared a new spell to account for the difference (either from increased level or increased ability score), but you cannot exchange old prepared spells for new ones.
- Inspiration (Chapter 4) is disabled.
- Encumbrance variant rules (Chapter 7) are enabled.
- Resting (Chapter 8) is disabled.
- Food rules (Chapter 8) operate on a per hour basis. Eating resets the "hours without food" count to zero, but does not reset exhaustion.

I am presently working on:
- Monster tables per level (using the above bestiary)
- Loot tables (pending the Dungeon Master's Guide, this will merely involve nonmagical loot)

I would like input on all of the above and more!

What would you all like to see in a D&D Next game that challenges you to simply endure its hardships and get further than you have before?

archaeo
2014-10-05, 11:22 PM
I mean, the funny thing here is that Rogue and many of the roguelikes that came after were pretty obviously inspired by D&D. I'm definitely planning a roguelike-style mega dungeon as a campaign world; I might just outright make it into DCSS, since that's the game I know best. But trying to style D&D after the roguelike mechanical tropes seems like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Your rules variations would seem to be nerfing spellcasters heavily and making it so that virtually every resource that recharges on a rest can be used very, very few times. I'm not sure what part of the roguelike experience you're seeking to replicate, since I can't think of a single roguelike that doesn't let you rest to recharge your abilities and hitpoints.

Chaosvii7
2014-10-05, 11:26 PM
we've all had that one campaign about the mega dungeon, but would anyone dare to make their campaign one massive Negadungeon (http://rottenpulp.blogspot.com/2013/03/negadungeon.html)?

I think the stuff you suggested is fine for houserules, it takes away all of the things that you'd expect a roguelike to not give you.

Lonely Tylenol
2014-10-06, 01:19 AM
I mean, the funny thing here is that Rogue and many of the roguelikes that came after were pretty obviously inspired by D&D. I'm definitely planning a roguelike-style mega dungeon as a campaign world; I might just outright make it into DCSS, since that's the game I know best. But trying to style D&D after the roguelike mechanical tropes seems like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

I disagree. Rogue was very obviously D&D-inspired, and it also had very similar mechanics (and game feel) to 1st ed and AD&D. If you were playing an old-fashioned, Gygaxian D&D adventure setting, Rogue was entirely too familiar to you.

I also concede that this is entirely a matter of taste and opinion, however, but I'm looking to cater to the sort of people who would be willing to play Tomb of Horrors to test their mettle, and the like. Gamist people just looking for a challenge, essentially. :smallsmile:


Your rules variations would seem to be nerfing spellcasters heavily and making it so that virtually every resource that recharges on a rest can be used very, very few times. I'm not sure what part of the roguelike experience you're seeking to replicate, since I can't think of a single roguelike that doesn't let you rest to recharge your abilities and hitpoints.

Rogue.

Rogue did not let you recharge your abilities and hit points.

Being a spellcaster in an early Roguelike largely meant having a few aces in the hole at early levels, but largely resorting to using Identify when possible to make it so you could extend your dungeon's lifespan using scrolls and wands in a way that wouldn't accidentally kill you. The biggest strength of a Wizard was indeed being able to cast Identify--which is a ritual in D&D Next (and thus does not need preparing).

(I suppose this is a dubious claim, as early Roguelikes technically let you recover hit points at the very slow rate of 1/[large number] turns as long as you were moving and not in combat, with a cap of [a small number] hit points, but recovering limited powers was never something you could really do.)

In any case, the "Normal" rules let you treat levelups as short rests, which is enough to recover all of the Fighter's abilities except for Indomitable, all of the Cleric's abilities minus spellcasting, and a certain number of spell slots each level via the Arcane Recovery class feature--in addition to the spell slots you are gaining at each level.


we've all had that one campaign about the mega dungeon, but would anyone dare to make their campaign one massive Negadungeon (http://rottenpulp.blogspot.com/2013/03/negadungeon.html)?

I think the stuff you suggested is fine for houserules, it takes away all of the things that you'd expect a roguelike to not give you.

The Negadungeon! Yes. For when you want to fulfill your Sadistic DM desires without all the showy pretenses of not being a Sadistic DM.

The veil has been lifted, gents. :smallamused:

Mandrake
2014-10-06, 01:27 AM
I disagree. Rogue was very obviously D&D-inspired, and it also had very similar mechanics (and game feel) to 1st ed and AD&D. If you were playing an old-fashioned, Gygaxian D&D adventure setting, Rogue was entirely too familiar to you.

Just as a point of notice, I believe Lonely Tylenol said pretty much the same thing, so you probably do agree.:smallsmile:

archaeo
2014-10-06, 01:56 AM
I disagree. Rogue was very obviously D&D-inspired, and it also had very similar mechanics (and game feel) to 1st ed and AD&D. If you were playing an old-fashioned, Gygaxian D&D adventure setting, Rogue was entirely too familiar to you.

Which is, as I think Mandrake meant to say, exactly what I was saying.


Rogue.

Rogue did not let you recharge your abilities and hit points.

Being a spellcaster in an early Roguelike largely meant having a few aces in the hole at early levels, but largely resorting to using Identify when possible to make it so you could extend your dungeon's lifespan using scrolls and wands in a way that wouldn't accidentally kill you. The biggest strength of a Wizard was indeed being able to cast Identify--which is a ritual in D&D Next (and thus does not need preparing).

Did the original Rogue even have spellcasting or magic that wasn't dependent on consumable or equipped items? Certainly, by the time the genre reached NetHack, spellcasting was a robust part of the game, and useful for more than just casting identify (though god knows that spares you a lot of trouble price-IDing all your junk at the first shop you find).


(I suppose this is a dubious claim, as early Roguelikes technically let you recover hit points at the very slow rate of 1/[large number] turns as long as you were moving and not in combat, with a cap of [a small number] hit points, but recovering limited powers was never something you could really do.)

From what I can tell, Rogue did indeed let you rest up to full. Certainly, all of second "generation" of roguelikes (esp. ADoM, Angband, and NetHack) incorporated resting as an important mechanic, and as far as I know, it remains part of the game in all of the top "modern" roguelikes as well (ToME4, Crawl, and Brogue). In the earlier games, you would have to manually rest -- no fun -- whereas recent games usually offer some kind of shortcut, like the 5 key in Crawl, which heals you up to full or for 100 turns, whichever comes first.


In any case, the "Normal" rules let you treat levelups as short rests, which is enough to recover all of the Fighter's abilities except for Indomitable, all of the Cleric's abilities minus spellcasting, and a certain number of spell slots each level via the Arcane Recovery class feature--in addition to the spell slots you are gaining at each level.

Right, 19 times over 355,000 XP, you get a short rest. That seems a wee bit harsh.

I mean, you are absolutely free to mod 5e to be an incredibly difficult luck-based game, but in my opinion, it's an edition that's woefully ill-suited for it. Dealing with everything turn-by-turn, starting off all new characters at level 1, and eliminating most high-powered abilities except for once or twice per level, all while doing nothing about the enormous HP bloat of the enemies, seems like it will lead to an extremely tedious dungeon crawl in which no one gets anywhere or accomplishes anything.

Perhaps if you added lots of magic items to the mix, as one finds in roguelikes, you would be able to extend this idea a bit, but then you're just adding another layer of complexity. While I think it's more than possible to import Roguelike flavor to D&D, importing Roguelike mechanics seems like a paperwork nightmare that won't really be as fun as you imagine it to be.

Lonely Tylenol
2014-10-06, 02:19 AM
Which is, as I think Mandrake meant to say, exactly what I was saying.

I misread, then. I thought you were saying it only goes one way; I'm saying it goes the other as well.


From what I can tell, Rogue did indeed let you rest up to full. Certainly, all of second "generation" of roguelikes (esp. ADoM, Angband, and NetHack) incorporated resting as an important mechanic, and as far as I know, it remains part of the game in all of the top "modern" roguelikes as well (ToME4, Crawl, and Brogue). In the earlier games, you would have to manually rest -- no fun -- whereas recent games usually offer some kind of shortcut, like the 5 key in Crawl, which heals you up to full or for 100 turns, whichever comes first.

Maybe I've been playing the wrong second-gen roguelikes, as all of them experience diminishing returns on resting (you gain a little hp over time, but it tapers off and vanishes entirely too soon to ever reach full). Modern roguelikes are, comparatively, pitifully easy, to the point where the player objective is not "how far can I get?", but "how thoroughly can I strip everything on every level down and back?". I am not looking to replicate a "modern roguelike" feel.


Right, 19 times over 355,000 XP, you get a short rest. That seems a wee bit harsh.

Correction: 19 times over 355,000 XP, you get a free short rest.

But the purpose is, indeed, to be a wee bit harsh. You don't get far at Rogue and its -likes by spamming your highest-level abilities, or otherwise going ham, in order to kill something by sheer force; you get far by being extremely conservative, cautious, patient, and even a little paranoid.


I mean, you are absolutely free to mod 5e to be an incredibly difficult luck-based game, but in my opinion, it's an edition that's woefully ill-suited for it. Dealing with everything turn-by-turn, starting off all new characters at level 1, and eliminating most high-powered abilities except for once or twice per level, all while doing nothing about the enormous HP bloat of the enemies, seems like it will lead to an extremely tedious dungeon crawl in which no one gets anywhere or accomplishes anything.

Well, in a single-player game, everything is naturally scaled down anyway, which largely eliminates HP bloat; you won't typically fight a monster meant for a party of your level, because fighting such a monster would mean suicide.


Perhaps if you added lots of magic items to the mix, as one finds in roguelikes, you would be able to extend this idea a bit, but then you're just adding another layer of complexity. While I think it's more than possible to import Roguelike flavor to D&D, importing Roguelike mechanics seems like a paperwork nightmare that won't really be as fun as you imagine it to be.

I fully intend to, but until the Dungeon Master's Guide is released, not much aside from the bog-standard "+x weapon", and scrolls/potions/wands of [spell] can really be added without outright making too many assumptions about how magic items might work in the game.

archaeo
2014-10-06, 02:31 AM
Modern roguelikes are, comparatively, pitifully easy, to the point where the player objective is not "how far can I get?", but "how thoroughly can I strip everything on every level down and back?". I am not looking to replicate a "modern roguelike" feel.

I think they're often "comparatively, pitifully easy" in a way that generally prioritizes player skill over how friendly the RNG is feeling on a given day, but I suspect we're better off agreeing to disagree here. :smallbiggrin:


Correction: 19 times over 355,000 XP, you get a free short rest.

But the purpose is, indeed, to be a wee bit harsh. You don't get far at Rogue and its -likes by spamming your highest-level abilities, or otherwise going ham, in order to kill something by sheer force; you get far by being extremely conservative, cautious, patient, and even a little paranoid.

See, I just question the degree to which one needs to import roguelike mechanics in order to achieve the goal of fostering player behavior that is "conservative, cautious, patient," etc. Tomb of Horrors and other infamous PC meatgrinders accomplished this not by severely limiting the players mechanically, but by creating an extremely dangerous environment that rewarded careful PC play (or a deplorable lack of morals re: hirelings and donkeys).

However, I'll leave my end of the discussion at that. Perhaps this sort of game is exactly what you and your players are looking for, and, if so, I wish you great fun and good luck in finding the Amulet of Yendor.

Lonely Tylenol
2014-10-06, 02:54 AM
See, I just question the degree to which one needs to import roguelike mechanics in order to achieve the goal of fostering player behavior that is "conservative, cautious, patient," etc. Tomb of Horrors and other infamous PC meatgrinders accomplished this not by severely limiting the players mechanically, but by creating an extremely dangerous environment that rewarded careful PC play (or a deplorable lack of morals re: hirelings and donkeys).

I will agree to disagree on everything else, but I want to stress two points on this exact issue that might at least explain my design philosophy, and that's that the Tomb of Horrors was both more difficult, and more "beatable", because it was a meticulously crafted dungeon where everything, from the three instant death traps at the front door, to the shiny, Macguffin-like bauble that is actually a self-contained Sphere of Annihilation, is designed to kill you in new and inventive ways. A painstaking amount of effort was taken to make the Tomb of Horrors the memorable meat grinder that it is, and that is what makes it so impossibly difficult for a large subset of the playing community to even start, much less complete. It is also a solved puzzle for entirely the same reasons: most people who opt into the Tomb of Horrors take it as a challenge to be overcome, but because the Tomb of Horrors is so easy for players to get their hands on, or similarly just reputable for its dungeon design, and entirely self-contained, a player (or group of players) can similarly meticulously prepare a group of characters to completely devastate the dungeon.

Roguelikes retain their difficulty (and, subsequently, their replayability) by being entirely random. The player will PROBABLY die, but they probably won't know how--it could just as easily be dying in combat as it could be donning a cloak of suffocation without properly identifying it, or blindly activating a scroll of fireball at point blank range, or simply running out of rations and not preparing a contingent escape for that inevitability. It's also easy to just pick up and play with little preparation, knowing a few choices and some quick random generation is all that it takes to get a game started, which is another appeal for me--a D&D game that is just "pick up and play until the player dies".

So yes, what many might consider a bug, I am considering the crowning feature. :smallbiggrin:

darkelf
2014-10-06, 06:48 PM
- Donjon d20 Random Dungeon Generator (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/dungeon/): a faithful random dungeon generator that might prove invaluable for roguelikes. Comes complete with name generator (so you can track the progress of each dungeon individually), different levels, and various customization options. Does not contain monsters.

which is to say, it has quite a lot of monsters, with d20 stat blocks. i have it on fairly good authority that a 5e-specific version is forthcoming, when wizards clarifies what can be gotten away with.

Lonely Tylenol
2014-10-06, 07:34 PM
which is to say, it has quite a lot of monsters, with d20 stat blocks. i have it on fairly good authority that a 5e-specific version is forthcoming, when wizards clarifies what can be gotten away with.

You are correct in that they also have an encounter generator, and I can't wait to see what they put forth for 5e; I just meant to say that, unlike the Wizards dungeon generator, this one does not actually populate the dungeon with a set of encounters, wandering monster table, etc. when you create the dungeon itself.

Doomchild
2014-10-06, 08:15 PM
we've all had that one campaign about the mega dungeon, but would anyone dare to make their campaign one massive Negadungeon (http://rottenpulp.blogspot.com/2013/03/negadungeon.html)?

My god. I am totally, absolutely, making my next campaign one massive Negadungeon. It's everything I've ever wanted.

darkelf
2014-10-07, 01:06 PM
You are correct in that they also have an encounter generator, and I can't wait to see what they put forth for 5e; I just meant to say that, unlike the Wizards dungeon generator, this one does not actually populate the dungeon with a set of encounters, wandering monster table, etc. when you create the dungeon itself.

it, uhm, does though. have you never clicked on the [construct] button?

Person_Man
2014-10-07, 01:26 PM
Just as side note, 1E was pretty much set up as a rogue-like game by default. Its filled with random generation charts for pretty much everything. Each successive edition has moved further and further away from that play style for a variety of reasons. So I find it interesting/humorous that Rogue-like play style has started to experience a bit of a renaissance lately.

Lonely Tylenol
2014-10-07, 03:51 PM
it, uhm, does though. have you never clicked on the [construct] button?

Yes, I have, and--

Oh god you can scroll down

THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS HERE

IMMEDIATE REDACTION INCOMING.