Build Theory: Ultimate infiltration

[Heliomance]

This is somewhat like a standard "help me make a" thread, but a bit more abstract. Rather than looking for a specific build, I thought it might be interesting to just toss around some ideas, and discuss various different approaches to achieving a goal.

What do you think is needed to make the best infiltrator possible in D&D? If you were trying to make a character that can get in anywhere undetected, despite all precautions, achieve an objective (retrieve information, steal a critical item, assassinate a key person, any other covert objective), and get out again, with no-one realising they were ever there, how would you do it? What abilities do you think would be needed?

I think mundane stealth is probably a necessity. Invisibility is too easy to shut down - a high security area might well have sentries with constant See Invisibility or even True Seeing, or traps of Invisibility Purge, or anything else. So high ranks in Hide/Move Silently, Darkstalker, and some flavour of Hide in Plain Sight probably needed.

As far as possible, doing everything non-magically is probably desirable, so that you can still infiltrate places protected by antimagic zones.

What else would be good? What would you want, and why? How would you recommend getting it? The floor is open!

Note: Let's keep this to PO levels. Obviously the best answer is Pun-Pun. I'm more thinking along the lines of things that would fly in an actual game.

[Gwendol]

A Dark rogue would be the groundwork (using HiPS). Perhaps coupled with Beguiler or Chameleon for the sometimes necessary magics.

Tack on skill tricks and feats to enhance stealth, mobility and speed, such as Darkstalker and Quick reconnoiter.

[Heliomance]

A note: Don't take my initial suggestions as restrictions. If you think magic can do it better, feel free to argue your case. I don't believe I have the One True Way, I want to see what shakes out of the Playground.

[Gwendol]

Me neither. I guess a straight rogue would be feasible, especially with WBL and a good UMD check. It's just that even low level magics do take care of a lot of stuff easily, and so allows the character to focus on things magic will not solve.

[nedz]

Ranger is quite useful, especially in natural terrain. Their spells are useful, but they never have enough slots.

Scout is also quite good in natural terrain, but do suffer from being entirely mundane.

A Druid Wildshaping into some innocuous creature is probably better, though they don't have the stealth skills.

Beguilers are an obvious contender for the magical route, though they can be built for other things.

Warlocks can do this, with the right invocation choices.

Rogues/Spellthieves etc. are good in urban type situations, but tend to get stuck in jungles etc.

There are so many choices of classes for this, the list above is by no means exhaustive. You can even do this with Monk, where their higher speed is actually useful for sneaking around at half speed.

[Gwendol]

Ranger would be another aspect of infiltration, but they tend to lack a lot of the useful skills.

[ILM]

Dark, Vecna-Blooded Whisper Gnome Rogue with Darkstalker feat gets you quite a long ways already (but Vecna-Blooded comes with its own issues). I'd go Beguiler/Unseen Seer (Mindbender dip for Mindsight) but that's a bit more magical than you'd like, I guess.

In terms of magic items, Gwaeron's Boots makes you immune to scent and tracking by mundane means, a Ring of the Darkhidden makes you invisible to darkvision (couple with Deeper Darkness for more fun) and a Hat of Disguise, well, who doesn't have one of those?

Then you've got the usual Mind Blank / Undetectable Alignment / Nondetection / Misdirection etc.

[Heliomance]

Dark, Vecna-Blooded Whisper Gnome Rogue with Darkstalker feat gets you quite a long ways already (but Vecna-Blooded comes with its own issues). I'd go Beguiler/Unseen Seer (Mindbender dip for Mindsight) but that's a bit more magical than you'd like, I guess.


As I say, don't take my initial suggestions as gospel. I'm not opposed to the idea of magic to do it; I just think that magic is too easy to thwart. If you don't think it'll be a problem, suggest it, defend it!

I don't want random build suggestions here, I want debate and discussion, interaction between posters. I want the Playground to put its collective heads together, and see what we can make together!

I'm actually quite fond of the Psychic Rogue. It's got enough skills and competencies to function if magic isn't an option, and it also has the added tricks and options given by some psionic powers where it is. I think it strikes a happy medium between the two extremes - what do people think? How do they shape up to something like Spellthief?

[D4rkh0rus]

If you want to maximize stealth? hmm

Dark Creature (There are 2 versions, ToM and one in one of the Faerun books (I think it was magic of faerun) Diff is that ToM is Hips (SU) and the Faerun one is Hips (EX), due to the possibility of Dead zones/antimagic fields Id see about getting the (Ex) one and porviding concealment in some other fashion (preferably an Ex one))

Assuming LA-Buyoff and all cheese allowed.

Dark Unseelie Fey Magic-blooded Necropolitan Grey-Elf. (-4 str, +4 dex, -4 Con (as necro you have con -), +2 int, -2 Wis, +4 Cha)

With point buy, you max out your Int, Dex and Charisma.

With 2 flaws, the typical Faeries initiate/Keen intellect schtick for Int to wisdom and Hp. Darkstalker, Lifesense, (At lvl 6 you grab a lvl in Mindbender and take Mindsight As soon as possible).

Marshall 1/Mindbender 1/Factotum 18 (im sure theres better x stat to y bonus classes, but this is all that comes to mind in 5 minutes. Factotum 3 is the main point, the rest is for that other class ability), Add Tactile trapsmith somewhere to add your int and Cha to Search and Disable device for the ultimate trapfinder.

(Marshall chooses Cha to Dex skills/checks aura)




What do you get?

Int to Str, Dex, Hp, 'Wis'
Cha to Dex

So, Given a 28 pt buy (18 dex, 18 Int, 10 Cha) belt of magnificence and +5 Tomes (and putting each lvl up point in Int, Your hide check will look like this: Rank (23) + 8 (Dark) + 10 (Item) + 11 Dex (33) + 13 Int (36) + 7 Cha (24).


Thats 1d20 + 73. and once per day you can add +18 to it Same with Hide (except its -2 to the check).

Also you get like 11 skills per level.


all you need now is to throw in the items that make you undetectable...

[ben-zayb]

Speaking of Psionics, I offfer an alternative: Egoist Psion Uncarnate. You got Hide/Dex buffs, you can take Martial Study for Hide as a CC, and then you get (Ex) incorporeality against AMF and listen checks.

Grab Ghostly Grasp to touch your items and turn them incorporeal as well (using rules in MMV and ToB)

Grab Assume Supernatural Ability for fun metamorphosis. The same power can yurn you to an object, for an alternative infiltrating means.

You can cherry pick Clairvoyant Sense (or the universal item) and Touchsight for scouting needs, and Crystalstorm against foes inside AMFs.

[Venger]

what level do you want this up and running by? if it's low-mid, then a psyrog with augmented compression could get a pretty stupid high mod via the size bonus, especially if you start out as a small race. for bonus points, roll yuan-ti muckdweller (starting size: tiny) nab compression as a power known and augment to get all the way down to fine to get a +16 size bonus to your hide checks. NB: this does not also apply to MS, but any sound you make should be negligible and can also be mitigated with the also psyrog power "control sound." to cover your tracks.

this in tandem with darkstalker (a feat tax on all sneaks) and the good dark template should get you pretty much anywhere you want to go.

[Heliomance]

Options at various levels would be interesting to find out. Obviously you're going to need to be pretty high level to sneak into the House Kundarak main vault, or an archmage's tower in the City of Brass, but you don't need to be anything like that high to get into an opposing army's command HQ or something.

Petal's my favoured go-to for a Tiny race, and has the bonus of a truly unholy Dex score.

[ILM]

Yeah, I think ultimate stealth is basically grounded in just a couple fundamentals:
a) force everything to make Spot/Listen searches to find you -> Darkstalker
b) shoot your modifiers through the roof through various means of cheese
c) find a way to get HiPS. (Ex) version is better, of course, but a bit harder to get
d) if you really want to take it up to 11, you'll also need ways to beat more esoteric means of detection like lifesense or mindsense. Lifesense can be beat by being undead, so go Necropolitan; unfortunately I can't find a way to beat mindsense...
e) now that you're completely invisible to close-range detection, all you need to do is to take care of long-range stuff. I believe all of them are divinations, so mind blank or vecna-blooded work well (depends on which level you're working at)
f) finally, there's traps and magical sensors. You're going to need trapfinding, permanent detect magic, and flight at least, though you could bypass most of it by simply being incorporeal. Most of the time, even if you're detected, the enemies will have a hard time finding you; still, that might be enough to thwart you depending on your objective. I guess a proximity trap that throws Glitterdust would mess up your day unless you had really pimped up your Hide check...

edit: I actually think that when it comes to stealth, AMFs work in your favour. Far less means of detection to beat; all you need is massive skill checks.

[Venger]

Options at various levels would be interesting to find out. Obviously you're going to need to be pretty high level to sneak into the House Kundarak main vault, or an archmage's tower in the City of Brass, but you don't need to be anything like that high to get into an opposing army's command HQ or something.

Petal's my favoured go-to for a Tiny race, and has the bonus of a truly unholy Dex score.

muckdweller gets it without any LA, though. gives you more room for class lvls and stuff.

[Heliomance]

muckdweller gets it without any LA, though. gives you more room for class lvls and stuff.

Ooh, interesting. Where are they from?

[Ettina]

Do they have to be sneaky, or can they be tricky instead? (eg going undetected vs being detected as something they aren't)

[Heliomance]

Do they have to be sneaky, or can they be tricky instead? (eg going undetected vs being detected as something they aren't)

Ideally, both! But yeah, that works too. The only thing I'm enforcing is the result - being able to get in somewhere and achieve a covert objective, and get out without alerting anyone. How you think is the best way to do that? Up for as much debate as you like!

[Venger]

Ooh, interesting. Where are they from?

the crushingly adorable muckdweller is from page 71 of serpent kingdoms.

-6 str, +6 dex, -2 wis, -2 cha. hits your dump stats, pumps dex, and leaves int alone. A-OK for a psyrog. also nabs the hilarious monstrous humanoid type, has a natural bite attack, and comes with a natural swim speed in case you need to raid crap underwater. best of all, you're explicitly allowed to use your dex mod for swimming.

[dysprosium]

Though it may take you in a different direction, my first Iron Chef gold (in my sig) was a Michael Westen style build so it had a good amount of what you were looking for. You could use it as a base.

A muckdweller version of it could be hilarious.

[Ellowryn]

the crushingly adorable muckdweller is from page 71 of serpent kingdoms.

-6 str, +6 dex, -2 wis, -2 cha. hits your dump stats, pumps dex, and leaves int alone. A-OK for a psyrog. also nabs the hilarious monstrous humanoid type, has a natural bite attack, and comes with a natural swim speed in case you need to raid crap underwater. best of all, you're explicitly allowed to use your dex mod for swimming.

Don't forget the little guys get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, in case you needed to something other that being tiny and sneaky.

[Venger]

Don't forget the little guys get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, in case you needed to something other that being tiny and sneaky.

That's correct. This is why I think muckdweller is a good base


Though it may take you in a different direction, my first Iron Chef gold (in my sig) was a Michael Westen style build so it had a good amount of what you were looking for. You could use it as a base.

A muckdweller version of it could be hilarious.

a muckdweller version of anything makes it more hilarious, reason number 342 why I like the little cuties so much.

[Troacctid]

I'd want a way to ignore physical barriers, like greater blink or an at-will teleport. Also, dispelling magical defenses seems useful, especially if it can be done silently.

[Venger]

I'd want a way to ignore physical barriers, like greater blink or an at-will teleport. Also, dispelling magical defenses seems useful, especially if it can be done silently.

something like tippy's good old bird of prey, adding on a splash of totemist (~6 lvls) after his factotum levels would probably get that done, but so could a muckdweller psyrog. all he'd need is shape soulmeld (blink shirt)

dispel psionics could be replicated through a dorje, since item/traps' CL usually isn't that high, same with passive spls left on (like programmed image or what have you) componentless, so it's silent.

[Mitchellnotes]

Going a slightly different route....a succubus evangelist. What you couldnt infiltrate directly using greater teleport, etherealness, and fly, you could con your way into with alter self, suggestion, charm, and converting with massive cha based DCs

[Venger]

Going a slightly different route....a succubus evangelist. What you couldnt infiltrate directly using greater teleport, etherealness, and fly, you could con your way into with alter self, suggestion, charm, and converting with massive cha based DCs

and hope there aren't any gust of wind traps, since you'll be knocked down by a stiff breeze between your 6RHD and +6 LA. you're always better off with class levels.

[OldTrees1]

Magical stealth << Mundane stealth. Invisibility covers you in a neon glow.

Senses come in tiers. The lowest tier is stopped by Hide/Move Silently.
The next tier is stopped by Darkstalker+Hide/Move Silently.
The final tier contains the powerful senses (Mindsight, Touchsight, Lifesense, Detect spells)

Mindsight cannot be stopped.
Touchsight can only be stopped by total cover/incorporeal.
Lifesense can only be stopped by Con -
Detect spells can be foiled with Vecna Blooded(prereq: any evil creature capable of casting 2nd level or higher arcane spells)

You also want Hide in Plain Sight(Ex)

Summary: _insert race_ Dark template(Cormyr- Tearing of the Weave) Beguiler 4 Ghost 1 (online template class) Vecna Blooded (evil? check, 2nd level spells? check).

Now only Mindsight can see you. However there are places(AMF, impassable ethereal side) where you would need to become corporeal (plane shift to the plane rather than manifest to the plane). During these times Touchsight can also see you.

[Venger]

Magical stealth << Mundane stealth. Invisibility covers you in a neon glow.

Senses come in tiers. The lowest tier is stopped by Hide/Move Silently.
The next tier is stopped by Darkstalker+Hide/Move Silently.
The final tier contains the powerful senses (Mindsight, Touchsight, Lifesense, Detect spells)
Agree with you up until here


Mindsight cannot be stopped.
Touchsight can only be stopped by total cover/incorporeal.
Lifesense can only be stopped by Con -
Detect spells can be foiled with Vecna Blooded(prereq: any evil creature capable of casting 2nd level or higher arcane spells)
earth glide overcomes mindsight. the most straightforward way of getting it is via earth dreamer, which is problematic for this character, though not completely undoable (dipping nosomatic chirurgeon or similar to nab divine spells for example, or the ever-popular cloistered cleric 1 to nab some useful spells)
earthglide also overcomes touchsight since they can't feel you.
same with detect x since it requires LoE


You also want Hide in Plain Sight(Ex)

Summary: _insert race_ Dark template(Cormyr- Tearing of the Weave) Beguiler 4 Ghost 1 (online template class) Vecna Blooded (evil? check, 2nd level spells? check).

Now only Mindsight can see you. However there are places(AMF, impassable ethereal side) where you would need to become corporeal (plane shift to the plane rather than manifest to the plane). During these times Touchsight can also see you.

heliomance said this was for actual play, so uncompleted online savage progressions are probably out. touchsight gives no special ability to detect incorporeal/ethereal creatures, so it's moot anyway.

[OldTrees1]

earth glide overcomes mindsight. the most straightforward way of getting it is via earth dreamer, which is problematic for this character, though not completely undoable (dipping nosomatic chirurgeon or similar to nab divine spells for example, or the ever-popular cloistered cleric 1 to nab some useful spells)
earthglide also overcomes touchsight since they can't feel you.
same with detect x since it requires LoE
How does Earth Glide ovecome Mindsight? You still have an Int score and a location and are within the Telepathy range.

Earthglide does overcome Touchsight via Total cover.
Detect Spells can penetrate cover but only to various depths(see lead plate). Detect is really only a problem for non neutral or undead characters that don't also have a counter.

The problem with Earth Glide is that it can't be used on all missions. If you are relying on it to avoid detection then your infiltration options are limited. (just as the Ghost becomes vulnerable to Touchsight when it has to be corporeal.)


heliomance said this was for actual play, so uncompleted online savage progressions are probably out. touchsight gives no special ability to detect incorporeal/ethereal creatures, so it's moot anyway.
I can see staggering levels of template classes in actual play. That is what they were made for.

Touchsight sees corporeal things. Ghost was to become incorporeal.

[Venger]

How does Earth Glide ovecome Mindsight? You still have an Int score and a location and are within the Telepathy range.
mindsight is keyed off blindsense, which requires LoE, which you lack if your opponent is in a wall. this is why mindsight doesn't work around corners and such.


Earthglide does overcome Touchsight via Total cover.
Detect Spells can penetrate cover but only to various depths(see lead plate). Detect is really only a problem for non neutral or undead characters that don't also have a counter.
yeah, if you're in 1 square deep, it's enough to spoof detectx spell. nope. detect fire is handy for spotting living creatures, regardless of alignment.


The problem with Earth Glide is that it can't be used on all missions. If you are relying on it to avoid detection then your infiltration options are limited. (just as the Ghost becomes vulnerable to Touchsight when it has to be corporeal.)
while that's true, it is the only way to beat mindsight.

ghost never becomes corporeal. manifesting shifts you from ethereal to incorporeal, not incorporeal to corporeal. I guess that's why you thought you could be picked up via touchsight as a ghost.


I can see staggering levels of template classes in actual play. That is what they were made for.

Touchsight sees corporeal things. Ghost was to become incorporeal.

you're in the minority there, then. consensus on the playground is that dipping savage progressions is pretty far up there as far as TO cheese goes, and is generally not seen in actual play.

ghosts are never corporeal.

[Heliomance]

ghosts are never corporeal.

They are if, while ethereal, they Plane Shift to the material plane.

[Venger]

They are if, while ethereal, they Plane Shift to the material plane.

That's odd. All I see in the RC is saying they're still incorporeal when they manifest. Where should I look for relevant rules info? primary source and all

[OldTrees1]

mindsight is keyed off blindsense, which requires LoE, which you lack if your opponent is in a wall. this is why mindsight doesn't work around corners and such.
Neat. +1 point for Earth Glide/Incorporeal. Is there a way to get Ex Earth Glide? (for in AMF)



detect fire is handy for spotting living creatures, regardless of alignment.Nice find.


you're in the minority there, then. consensus on the playground is that dipping savage progressions is pretty far up there as far as TO cheese goes, and is generally not seen in actual play.

ghosts are never corporeal.
You seem to be misinterpreting what I said. Stagger = Multiclassing. Not dipping. Savage Progressions give explicit permission to take levels in other classes inbetween levels in template classes.

Arbitrary example: 1HD / +1LA / +4HD / +1LA / +6HD / +1L / +5HD / +1LA ...

Consensus is that dipping(never taking the other levels) is TO cheese. Staggering is RAI and happens to not be TO.

[Heliomance]

That's odd. All I see in the RC is saying they're still incorporeal when they manifest. Where should I look for relevant rules info? primary source and all

I don't think it's directly covered in the rules, but as they don't get the benefits of incorporeality while not manifested and on the ethereal plane, it stands to reason that they wouldn't if they bodily Plane Shift from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane.

[Venger]

You seem to be misinterpreting what I said. Stagger = Multiclassing. Not dipping. Savage Progressions give explicit permission to take levels in other classes inbetween levels in template classes.

Arbitrary example: 1HD / +1LA / +4HD / +1LA / +6HD / +1L / +5HD / +1LA ...

Consensus is that dipping(never taking the other levels) is TO cheese. Staggering is RAI and thus cannot be TO.

I don't know of any way to get ex earth glide, but that's not to say it doesn't exist.

no, I know what you said. your meaning was perfectly clear. what I said wasn't "not finishing a savage progression is against RAW" it was "it's generally frowned on to say the least, so I don't think heliomance's DM will allow it" despite whether or not it's RAI.


I don't think it's directly covered in the rules, but as they don't get the benefits of incorporeality while not manifested and on the ethereal plane, it stands to reason that they wouldn't if they bodily Plane Shift from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane.

oh, so you meant to plane shift, independent of the ghost's manifest ability, in order to become corporeal for... reasons. that makes more sense.

[OldTrees1]

Darn, I was hoping there was a way to foil all High Tier senses even in an AMF. (AMFs shut off incorporeal undead, hence the "reasons" why a Ghost might want to become corporeal once in a while)


I don't know of any way to get ex earth glide, but that's not to say it doesn't exist.

no, I know what you said. your meaning was perfectly clear. what I said wasn't "not finishing a savage progression is against RAW" it was "it's generally frowned on to say the least, so I don't think heliomance's DM will allow it" despite whether or not it's RAI.

I never said not to finish. That was where you misread. I implied finishing. Staggering means not taking all the levels at once but rather taking them interspersed with other classes. It still means taking all the levels.

[Venger]

Darn, I was hoping there was a way to foil all High Tier senses even in an AMF. (AMFs shut off incorporeal undead, hence the "reasons" why a Ghost might want to become corporeal once in a while)



I never said not to finish. That was where you misread. I implied finishing. Staggering means not taking all the levels at once but rather taking them interspersed with other classes. It still means taking all the levels.

See, every time savage progression is mentioned and the levels are staggered since you technically do need to finish taking them all eventually, the issue is avoided by delaying them to NI epic levels and never actually getting to them since they're without exception, pretty worthless. that's why I made that connection

[OldTrees1]

See, every time savage progression is mentioned and the levels are staggered since you technically do need to finish taking them all eventually, the issue is avoided by delaying them to NI epic levels and never actually getting to them since they're without exception, pretty worthless. that's why I made that connection

Yeah, I can see how I wasn't clear. Sorry for that.

[Venger]

Yeah, I can see how I wasn't clear. Sorry for that.

no problem.

re: build, as mentioned, some totemist levels thrown in could really boost your hide/ms mods. something like:

muckdweller psyrog5/totemist2/soul manifester 10/xx3

you can rack up a crazy hide AND MS mod via kruthik claws and SM progresses your meldshaping and your power progression, getting you sneak-friendly powers from the psyrog list like chameleon and telekinetic force.

a hide mod accessible as early as level 8:

+3 (racial dex)
+16 size (compression)
+ 10 enhancement (chameleon)
+ 10 competence (kruthik claws, assuming totem bind and ESC)
+ 8 (ranks from psyrog lvls)

your mod is at least a 47, + whatever you invest in dex from point-buy. at level 8. it'll only get higher from here as your essentia cap increases.

while little totemists aren't especially common, they can still work just fine. tons of your melds can give flight, and manticore belt's damage doesn't worsen with a smaller size, so you can do all this stealth stuff, fly in with pegasus cloak or similar, and then rain down spines (with sneak attack) via manticore belt. volley rules apply if your DM doesn't want mundanes to have nice things, but it couldn't hurt to ask. worst-case scenario, you can make up for it in volume.

[nedz]

Nemesis will beat Earthglide and Incorporeality — should it apply to you.


Choose one of your favored enemies. You can sense the presence of creatures of this type within 60 feet, as well as pinpoint their exact location (distance and direction) relative to you. Normal barriers and obstructions do not block this supernatural ability, allowing you to sense the presence and location of creatures behind doors or walls, for example. This feat does not allow you to see an invisible or hidden creature (although you can still discern its location).

[Venger]

Nemesis will beat Earthglide and Incorporeality — should it apply to you.

the solution is simple: be a 10th lvl scar enforcer in order to gain immunity to favored enemy

[OldTrees1]

Nemesis will beat Earthglide and Incorporeality — should it apply to you.

Nemesis is hard to beat. Especially since Vecna Blooded requires Arcane Casting.


If we remove the Arcane Casting and become TN after gaining and losing Vecna Blooded(retaining the important benefit), and get Earth Gliding instead of Ghost, then we can remain Humanoid. At that point we just need to change our racial subtype if we encounter a Nemesis.

[Venger]

Nemesis is hard to beat. Especially since Vecna Blooded requires Arcane Casting.


If we remove the Arcane Casting and become TN after gaining and losing Vecna Blooded(retaining the important benefit), and get Earth Gliding instead of Ghost, then we can remain Humanoid. At that point we just need to change our racial subtype if we encounter a Nemesis.

or just be an awkward type that no one picks for favored enemy in the first place (e.g. monstrous humanoid)

oh look at that, muckdweller's monstrous humanoid.

while FE itself is hard to get immunity to, 60ft is not. just fly above him, plink him with stuff, and he won't be able to see you.

[Threadnaught]

I like Warforged Artificer in a setting where Warforged are uncommon.

Disguise to appear as a Humanoid, a few items to further conceal the existence of the Warforged, who relies on Homunculi and allies to get things done.

[ben-zayb]

I just noticed being ethereal wasn't considered here. Shouldn't it block all thoses senses by virtue of being on a different plane?

[Venger]

I just noticed being ethereal wasn't considered here. Shouldn't it block all thoses senses by virtue of being on a different plane?

see, it would, but depending on the specific task our guy has to do (get into room, take the thing, move the thing, return the thing, kill the guy, etc) he might need to be able to physically interact with the environment. that'd require manifesting if he were a ghost. when ghosts manifest, they become incorporeal, and are vulnerable to winking out in an AMF.

the phase cloak can obviate this, allowing you to walk through walls.

stub for my proposed solution to this problem:

gashlycrumb tiny: karma chameleon

muckdweller psyrog5/totemist 2/soul manifester 10/ xx3

1: darkstalker
3: azure talent
6: ESC
9: double chakra (totem)
12: craven
15: flyby attack
18: open greater chakra (whatever)

at the earliest convenience, permanency augmented compression on yourself to remain fine all the time for hide, to-hit, and armor class bonuses. between that, chameleon, your super high dex, and melds like kruthik claws and worg pelt, you'll be pretty much impossible to see.

bomb enemies with the manticore belt dealing SA damage with craven on top (on the first hit anyways) and keep strafing with flyby attack to make yourself really hard to find.

get in basically anywhere since you're the size of a gnat, nonmagically at that. while you don't have hip proper, the shadow mantle can provide a similar effect, and your hide check is so good, you barely need it.

ultimate infiltrator: done.

[nedz]

Well Nemesis is inflexible and expensive (since it only applies to one of your FEs) and hard to predict. This is always the problem with these exercises: there are a large number of possible counter-measures and it's very hard to counter them all.

I do note that we all assume FE(Arcanist) :smallamused:

[Venger]

Well Nemesis is inflexible and expensive (since it only applies to one of your FEs) and hard to predict. This is always the problem with these exercises: there are a large number of possible counter-measures and it's very hard to counter them all.

I do note that we all assume FE(Arcanist) :smallamused:

yep! that's why my guy doesn't rely on arcane magic :smalltongue:

[OldTrees1]

Well Nemesis is inflexible and expensive (since it only applies to one of your FEs) and hard to predict. This is always the problem with these exercises: there are a large number of possible counter-measures and it's very hard to counter them all.

I do note that we all assume FE(Arcanist) :smallamused:

Well yeah. Vecna Blooded(important for stopping Divination) requires Arcane magic from an Evil cast, so it is reasonable to expect anyone trying to be an ultimate infiltrator was an Evil Arcanist at one point. Thus it is reasonable to assume that FE(Evil) and FE(Arcanist) are likely choices to be countered. Of course in response, the ultimate infiltrators respond by changing alignment and retraining levels after getting and losing Vecna Blooded. In response it is reasonable to assume anything but FE(Evil) or FE(Arcanist).

[nedz]

Well yeah. Vecna Blooded(important for stopping Divination) requires Arcane magic from an Evil cast, so it is reasonable to expect anyone trying to be an ultimate infiltrator was an Evil Arcanist at one point. Thus it is reasonable to assume that FE(Evil) and FE(Arcanist) are likely choices to be countered. Of course in response, the ultimate infiltrators respond by changing alignment and retraining levels after getting and losing Vecna Blooded. In response it is reasonable to assume anything but FE(Evil) or FE(Arcanist).

FE(Arcanist) is a Ranger ACF and AFAIK FE(Evil) does not exist — perhaps you meant Outsider (evil) ?

From a general adventuring Ranger's point of view FE(Arcanist) and FE(Undead), both with Nemesis, are probably the best choices — but that is two feats !

Undead because they are often hard to detect, well except for the low level types, and they are, almost, always evil. Also they tend to have nasty special attacks so you want to take them out quickly.

Arcanist because they are often the hardest opponents, and have all manner of defences. It is also a very broad grouping.

On another tack now:
Xorvintal is an interesting option — provided that the infiltration is connected to the great game you are immune to any divination. You also have to give up any spellcasting, so you are not an arcanist — FWIW. You do have to be a Dragon, so you would want to be one of those types who can change shape — and have stealth skills. Silver are reasonable since they get Bluff and Disguise as class skills, as well as Alternate form. Black, Green and White Dragons do get Hide and Move Silently, but without spells they cannot change form — which is highly inconvenient for infiltration.

[Heliomance]

FE(Arcanist) is a Ranger ACF and AFAIK FE(Evil) does not exist — perhaps you meant Outsider (evil) ?

From a general adventuring Ranger's point of view FE(Arcanist) and FE(Undead), both with Nemesis, are probably the best choices — but that is two feats !

Undead because they are often hard to detect, well except for the low level types, and they are, almost, always evil. Also they tend to have nasty special attacks so you want to take them out quickly.

Arcanist because they are often the hardest opponents, and have all manner of defences. It is also a very broad grouping.

On another tack now:
Xorvintal is an interesting option — provided that the infiltration is connected to the great game you are immune to any divination. You also have to give up any spellcasting, so you are not an arcanist — FWIW. You do have to be a Dragon, so you would want to be one of those types who can change shape — and have stealth skills. Silver are reasonable since they get Bluff and Disguise as class skills, as well as Alternate form. Black, Green and White Dragons do get Hide and Move Silently, but without spells they cannot change form — which is highly inconvenient for infiltration.
No Dragonwrought Kobold shenanigans? Or actually, for changing shape, and inspired by one of the recent Iron Chef entries, Dragonwrought Changeling?

[OldTrees1]

FE(Arcanist) is a Ranger ACF and AFAIK FE(Evil) does not exist — perhaps you meant Outsider (evil) ?
BoED has a Stalker prestige class that gives FE(any/all Evil)

Also what choices make sense for guardians =/= choices that make sense for adventurers. Our ultimate infiltrator will be up against guardians much more than adventurers.

[Venger]

BoED has a Stalker prestige class that gives FE(any/all Evil)

Also what choices make sense for guardians =/= choices that make sense for adventurers. Our ultimate infiltrator will be up against guardians much more than adventurers.

then a nonevil alignment will protect you from any stalkers of kharash

my guy doesn't need to be evil for any mechanical reason

[Martimus Prime]

dark kenku monk/rogue/nightsong infiltrator with Dark Stalker, movement-based skill tricks, and a hat of anonymity could be fun. Use disguise even when you are hiding, because mundane disguises should still be effective against touch sight and the similar, and you would have the added benefit of being a party buffer on some levels. Most of the effects involved (other than the hat) are still functional in antimagic.

[Venger]

dark kenku monk/rogue/nightsong infiltrator with Dark Stalker, movement-based skill tricks, and a hat of anonymity could be fun. Use disguise even when you are hiding, because mundane disguises should still be effective against touch sight and the similar, and you would have the added benefit of being a party buffer on some levels. Most of the effects involved (other than the hat) are still functional in antimagic.

sounds reminiscent of the joker bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?99903-Batman-s-Bane-The-Joker) which uses some of the tricks you're talking about.

if you're going this route of indirect stealth tho, you'd likely be better off to invest in spymaster since nightsong infiltrator really sucks.

[nedz]

No Dragonwrought Kobold shenanigans? Or actually, for changing shape, and inspired by one of the recent Iron Chef entries, Dragonwrought Changeling?

I'm sure that there are more options — it was late and I just went through the SRD.

Xorvintal Shadow Dragon could be fun.

Do Incarnum users count as Arcanists ?
Xorvintal Incarnum Dragon would give you some Meldshaping.

[Venger]

I'm sure that there are more options — it was late and I just went through the SRD.

Xorvintal Shadow Dragon could be fun.

Do Incarnum users count as Arcanists ?
Xorvintal Incarnum Dragon would give you some Meldshaping.

no, they do not.

[Skysaber]

So what are the methods of pushing Hide/Move Silently to absurd heights?

Say if you had to tiptoe past a golem with 288 HD and Spot and Listen maxed out as class skills for those HD?

Sometimes you've just got to sneak past the guards - how do you pump those skill checks sky high?

[Venger]

So what are the methods of pushing Hide/Move Silently to absurd heights?

Say if you had to tiptoe past a golem with 288 HD and Spot and Listen maxed out as class skills for those HD?

Sometimes you've just got to sneak past the guards - how do you pump those skill checks sky high?

at that level of epic, you can make up whatever rules you want to get a NI hide check that'll outstrip any spot.

gashlycrumb can slip by anything in actual 1-20 play though.

he's got 3 more lvls after what I listed, so could easily take the dark template as well and jam on some more totemist lvls or uncanny trickster or w/e on the tail end.

use a wand of camouflage via UMD on top of the dark template and other mods mentioned:

+3 (racial dex)
+16 size (compression)
+ 10 enhancement (chameleon)
+ 10 competence (kruthik claws, assuming totem bind and ESC)
+ 8 (ranks from psyrog lvls)
+8 dark template
+10 circumstance

mod is at least a 65, + whatever you invest in dex from point-buy. at level 8. it'll only get higher from here as your essentia cap increases.

it only goes up as level increases, and even another totemist isn't able to get his spot check up to reliably higher than 65 by level 8, much less higher afterwards, while he can keep dumping ranks into hide since totemists need them for little else.

[Skysaber]

gashlycrumb can slip by anything in actual 1-20 play though.

I made that 288 HD golem at level 12, so technically it exists in actual 1-20 play. No, I don't adventure with it, that would be silly. But if I can make that, surely someone else could sneak past it.

[Rebel7284]

Tibbits make for fun stealth characters.

[Heliomance]

Tibbits make for fun stealth characters.

Ooh, that's right, they do. No-one questions a stray cat in an urban setting. By the same token, Hengeyokai would be very good at it.