Spell Descriptors

[skypse]

Hello giants! It's being long since I disturbed your peace with my matters but unfortunately is time for me to do it again. Reading about magic and spell descriptors, I realize that I couldn't find a single place in core,advanced or UM that says that the spell descriptor directly affects your alignment.

e.g. Evil: Spells that draw upon evil powers or conjure creatures from evil-aligned planes or with the evil subtype should have the evil descriptor.

This reads: Spells that use evil energy for any reason whatsoever (summoning, communing, harming) should be called evil.

However there is no clear notice as far as the caster is concerned. Take the following scenario for instance:

Jimbo is a 11lvl Wizard with necromancy specialization school and his allignment is LN. He finds himself in a bad situation and he uses his "Animate Dead" spell to summon an undead creature and then immediately uses his school power to command it. The undead creature serves its purpose and blindly obeys Jimbo's orders and finally saves him from danger. After that, having the undead still under his command, he continues his journey until his loyal servant can't follow him anymore.

Has Jimbo's allignment changed because he just casted a spell from his spellbook? Or we just have the spell descriptors only for game flavour? Changing Jimbo's allignment just because he casted 1 spell with a certain descriptor means that the next time he will use "Protection from evil" he will become good? By that logic he would be changing specialization school everytime he casts fireball,create pit etc.

Have I missed something in a companion book or anywhere else? What is the actual point of having alignment descriptors on wizard/sorcerer spell lists?

[Iain]

Casting an [Evil] spell is an evil act.

Some characters are unable to cast spells of alignments opposed to their own/their deity. Your LN Wizard does not have this restriction with regards to casting [Evil] spells.

One evil act is normally not enough to justify an alignment shift - a rogue need not be evil just because they pick pockets now and then. If your LN Wizard does a lot of this, and does not also do a lot of good, it may be reasonable for them to shift to LE.

[skypse]

Casting an [Evil] spell is an evil act.

I know it DOES make sense, but I needed it to be written somewhere in the official books. I can't find it.

[Milo v3]

In Book of Vile Darkness it says animating undead is an evil act because it brings negative-ness™ into the world, which is bad... apparently.... Still doesn't have explanation on how Deathwatch is evil....

[skypse]

Correct me if I'm wrong but BoVD is 3.0/3.5 material. I need something for/converted to Pathfinder

[Iain]

I know it DOES make sense, but I needed it to be written somewhere in the official books. I can't find it.

I don't have the books to hand here - will part of the srd do?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/additional-rules

Characters using spells with the evil descriptor should consider themselves to be committing minor acts of evil, though using spells to create undead is an even more grievous act of evil that requires atonement

[Eanow]

Took a quick look through my pathfinder books. I was unable to find anything that mentioned spell descriptors specifically. There is a section in the GameMastery Guide that discusses alignment (Player Characters Chapter, page 68 in the third printing) which has a couple way to view alignment, and one viewpoint talks about alignment being defined by deeds, which imo could include spells cast. In the changing alignment section, it makes it pretty clear that how alignment shifts is something that is up to the GM and that they should work with the players in the interest of making the game enjoyable.

In Ultimate Campaign, there is a suggested system for handling alignment shifts, but it also does not call out specific spells, and describes a system using a graduated scale which the GM decides if an action is likely to shift alignment, and that this should be communicated to the player.

So all in all, it appears that Pathfinder's rules leave the issue of what specific deeds count as 'evil' or 'good' or 'lawful' or 'chaotic' up to the GM and players, and encourages discussion about it- the GM should never be opaque and just declare 'your alignment is now Evil!' without some discussion or input from players, or giving them a warning such as 'That's a bit out of character for a lawful good paladin', but ultimately leaving it up to the GM for final arbitration.

[skypse]

I don't have the books to hand here - will part of the srd do?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/additional-rules

Characters using spells with the evil descriptor should consider themselves to be committing minor acts of evil, though using spells to create undead is an even more grievous act of evil that requires atonement

Well I guess the SRD takes the rules out of the books+errata right? Does this mean that if (for example) I use animate dead to craft a robe of bones (which has feint necromancy aura but not evil) it will count as if I actually casted the spell to create undead creatures thus I immediatelly became evil?

[Milo v3]

Well I guess the SRD takes the rules out of the books+errata right? Does this mean that if (for example) I use animate dead to craft a robe of bones (which has feint necromancy aura but not evil) it will count as if I actually casted the spell to create undead creatures thus I immediatelly became evil?

Simply committing a single evil action would not change your alignment.

[Xan_Kriegor]

Echoing what Eanow said, I don't think it's in the rules anywhere (3.5 or Pathfinder) that doing any action a certain number of times will automatically change your alignment. It'd be a bit silly as well, and in my opinion less fun. I think that some of the spells with [Good], [Evil], etc. descriptors don't necessarily deserve them because it's more of a how-you-use-it kind of deal. Who knows, maybe there's a section of the cemetery where people buried there have given consent to have their bodies risen and the local wizard just wants a beefier version of Unseen Servant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/u/unseen-servant). I would think it a little absurd for such a case to cause an alignment shift for that. Other spells do deserve it (e.g. Death Knell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/death-knell)), but at the same time spells are just how casters attack, should we make using bows and swords shift your alignment?

Long story short, there are no hard rules (to my knowledge) for casting spells with [Alignment] descriptors causing alignment shifts. If you would like to incorporate it into the campaign, talk with your group and ask their opinions. I think this is why there aren't rules for it, so that each table may come to their own decisions for how they'd like to handle it.

EDIT: To answer your later question, you are sort of correct in that there are no mechanical reasons for a Sorcerer/Wizard only spell to have [Alignment] descriptors on it. However if it's also a Cleric spell or if the Sorcerer/Wizard in question gets buffs to, say, [Evil] spells, then it does make a difference. It also allows for greater(ish) roleplaying if a particularly Good/Evil Wizard decides they don't want to cast spells with the opposing alignment. This isn't a mechanical rule but a self-imposed character ideal that is aided by the fact that their spells come with these descriptors. There are also cases of spells that aren't Cleric spells but are Cleric domain spells, and all sorts of other things to consider. Point being if you don't care you don't need to care, but if you want to you can.

[Eanow]

Well I guess the SRD takes the rules out of the books+errata right? Does this mean that if (for example) I use animate dead to craft a robe of bones (which has feint necromancy aura but not evil) it will count as if I actually casted the spell to create undead creatures thus I immediatelly became evil?

That particular section on the PFSRD, specifically with the introductory paragraph, seems to be misplaced- I can't find that introductory text in the Core Rule Book, and the PFSRD doesn't state where that section is from (It seems to suggest that the page comes from the CRB, given that the section navigation on the right corresponds roughly with the CRB, but then they include stuff from other books at the bottom). I would use the PRD if you want to be specific to the Pathfinder material published by Paizo. http://www.paizo.com/prd/. With regard to [evil] descriptor spells, the only text related to alignment-related spells is that a spell with an alignment can't be cast by characters who have restrictions on the spells they can cast by alignment (for instance, a LG cleric would not be able to cast spells with the [evil] or [chaotic] descriptors)

I don't have access to some of the 1st party material such as the player companions champions of purity or the similar evil-aligned ones, but in the Core Rule Book, GameMastery Guide, and Ultimate Campaign, the first-party books all describe alignment along these lines:


Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity—it is not a straitjacket for restricting your character.

And they seem pretty consistent in the view that alignment isn't sometime to hit your players over the head with, and no where does it spell out "This action is an automatic go to evil, do not pass go, do not collect $200." Going by the first-party rulebooks, this is purely a discussion between you and the GM, and the GM misleading you about how it would affect your character is discouraged.

Let's reframe the question a bit- would a TN wizard casting Protection From Chaos be threatened with an alignment shift towards LN? If your answer is no, then it would seem to be unfair to make spells with the [evil] descriptor threaten to change your alignment simply for having the evil descriptor.

[Iain]

Casting an [Evil] spell is an evil act.

Having now had a look through the CRB, GMG, APB, UM and the Bestiary (the latter just to look at the pictures again, admittedly) - I appear to have made this up.

The PHB (p212) says spell descriptors govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on - but that's about it. Sorry.

I pretty much stand by what I said, but it's my interpretation, not RAW!

[grarrrg]

Simply committing a single evil action would not change your alignment.

See also this current thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?375627-Avoiding-an-alignment-shift).