Positive and negative energy

[Max Caysey]

Hi all...

I was reading about the Radiant Servant of Pelor the other day, and something struck me as odd. The positive energy burst seems odd to me.

Positive Energy Burst (Su): As a standard action, a radiant servant of Pelor who is at least 8th level can create a positive energy burst that deals 1d6 points of damage per class level to all undead creatures within 100 feet of the character. Undead are allowed a Reflex save (DC equal to 10 + the class level of the radiant servant) to avoid half the damage. This supernatural ability uses up two turning attempts. A radiant servant cannot use this ability if he has fewer than two turning attempts left for the day.

As far as I have found, all positive energy, that deals damage to undead, simultaneously heals living. Now its true that not all positive energy heals living, but the positive energy that does infact deal damage to undead, as far as I have been able to find does. It is also true that some negative energy does not heal undead nor deal damage to living (enervation), but the negative energy that does heal undead also deals damage to living.

My question is this: Would it not, from a logical perspective, make sense, if the positive energy burst from the RSoP, when seeing as it deals damage to undead, healed living creatures the same amount as it damages undead???


My hypothesis is thus:

"Positive energy that heals living <=> positive energy that damages undead"

"Negative energy that heals undead <=> negative energy that damages living"

"Positive energy that damages undead <=> positive energy that heals living"

"Negative energy that damages living <=> negative energy that heals undead"


So what I would like your comment on is this.

1) Do you agree with me, from a logical standpoint?

2) If no... why not?

3) If yes... Would you allow such an interpretation and incorporate it into the rules at your table?

[Necroticplague]

1. No.
2.Because its specifically a form of anti-undead, not just general positive energy use.It doesn't heal allies for the same reason that Turn Undead (a.k.a. Channel Positive Energy) doesn't effect the living at all.If you let this ability heal the living, than in order to keep the logic consistent, rebuke undead should be able to Turn/Destroy living creatures and for turn undead to Rebuke/Command living creatures.

Alternatively:
1.No
2.Its an Supernatural ability based off another Supernatural ability, both of which are given by a deity.It doesn't have to behave in a manner consistent with anything, and how it works is 100% divine fiat.

[DoomyDoom]

1. No
2. There are numerous precedents in RAW for requiring a specific wording for a spell to do something. Relevant examples:
- Cure X Wounds - it specifically states that chaneled positive energy in that spell heals living and damages undead.
- Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm) explicitly states what happens to living and undead targets.
- Bolt Of Glory (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/boltOfGlory.htm) presents a table which describes how positive energy used in this spell interacts with creatures of various origin. Note damage to creatures from Material Plane, rather than healing.

[Max Caysey]

1. No
2. There are numerous precedents in RAW for requiring a specific wording for a spell to do something. Relevant examples:
- Cure X Wounds - it specifically states that chaneled positive energy in that spell heals living and damages undead.
- Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm) explicitly states what happens to living and undead targets.
- Bolt Of Glory (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/boltOfGlory.htm) presents a table which describes how positive energy used in this spell interacts with creatures of various origin. Note damage to creatures from Material Plane, rather than healing.

Just a quick note... Im pretty sure, for at spell to actually pull stuff from a different plane it needs to be Conjuration to follow the rules.

Please continues with the answering of my hypothesis. :smallbiggrin:

[Pan151]

Just a quick note... Im pretty sure, for at spell to actually pull stuff from a different plane it needs to be Conjuration to follow the rules.

Please continues with the answering of my hypothesis. :smallbiggrin:

I have never heard of such a rule. (it would also not be a rule. It would be fluff)

Although, at any rate, spell categorisation is so inconsistent that you should just give up on it.

[DoomyDoom]

Just a quick note... Im pretty sure, for at spell to actually pull stuff from a different plane it needs to be Conjuration to follow the rules.
I provided a link to SRD, so this is very much RAW for this spell. If it states evocation, then evocation it is. Unless, of course, there is a different source for this spell, but I'm AFB. Regardless of spell descriptors, however, that takes us back to the following statement, which is, incidentally, the beginning of your argument for letting BoE heal living creatures:

As far as I have found, all positive energy, that deals damage to undead, simultaneously heals living.
I just provided an example of positive energy that explicitly deals damage to both undead and living (Creature Origin - Material Plane entry covers this category)does not heal anything to any kind of creature. Thus I consider the basis of your hypothesis to be incorrect. If you would like, the "Positive energy that heals living <= positive energy that damages undead" relation is not fullfilled as per Bolt Of Glory spell description.

[Sir Garanok]

There is no statement about healing living creatures.

Usually the rules don't write every little detail but having an ability that spends turn undead for healing would be noted,
even firstly than damaging undead.

Trying to explain positive/negative energy and how it works is another thing.

[fishyfishyfishy]

One thing to note is that Turn Undead itself is channeling positive energy, but it does not heal living creatures. It has absolutely no effect on living creatures at all. This ability is merely a modification of Turn Undead, and should have no interaction with the living.

EDIT: evidence is in the first two lines describing turn/rebuke undead
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead

[Max Caysey]

I have never heard of such a rule. (it would also not be a rule. It would be fluff)

Although, at any rate, spell categorisation is so inconsistent that you should just give up on it.

Indeed... this was an attempt to rectify this a little bit.


I provided a link to SRD, so this is very much RAW for this spell. If it states evocation, then evocation it is. Unless, of course, there is a different source for this spell, but I'm AFB. Regardless of spell descriptors, however, that takes us back to the following statement, which is, incidentally, the beginning of your argument for letting BoE heal living creatures:

I just provided an example of positive energy that explicitly deals damage to both undead and living (Creature Origin - Material Plane entry covers this category)does not heal anything to any kind of creature. Thus I consider the basis of your hypothesis to be incorrect. If you would like, the "Positive energy that heals living <= positive energy that damages undead" relation is not fullfilled as per Bolt Of Glory spell description.

You did, wich I find most peculiar... Since 1) The discriptions of the schools would indicate that the designers got it wrong. Evocation does not fetch stuff from one plane to another. For that same reason cure spells are conjuration, because they fetch the stuff from the plane of positive energy, when they heal. Which was my point all along. So to speak.

2) And how I had not seen this spell I cannot explain.



One thing to note is that Turn Undead itself is channeling positive energy, but it does not heal living creatures. It has absolutely no effect on living creatures at all. This ability is merely a modification of Turn Undead, and should have no interaction with the living.


EDIT: evidence is in the first two lines describing turn/rebuke undead
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead

Nor does it damage undead, which then in turn does not falter my hypothesis. Which simply put is that positive energy that damages undead should infact heal living. Other effects from negative or positive energy I do not try to say should do this and that, only when the specific ability would either damage or heal the opposit would I present the idea/notion that is should by my logical sence then do the opposite to the opposite. That is not the case, but I think that it should be, and I'm simply presenting this idea to you.

And lastly... The game is filled with so many poortly written, contradictorary, dysfuntional rules, that im simply trying to just fix a couble of them. IMHO this is one of them. So open your mind to the idea that the designers had their head up their whatever when they wrote half the printed material.


I build my idea around this line, which is found in basically all:

"Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell deals damage to them instead of curing their wounds." This is taken from Cure light wounds. The opposite is stated in the inflict spell line. To me it very much looks like when ever undead are damaged by positive energy, that same positive energy heals living. So I simply deduct that I think that this should be the case in all applications of positive energy, where 1) If it damages undead it heals the same amount to living. If it heals in deals the same amount if damage to undead. Like lits say the Dread Necromansers Negative energy burst... or the Healing Spirite spell or the Sacred Purification feat... just to mention a few.

[Pan151]

"Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell deals damage to them instead of curing their wounds." This is taken from Cure light wounds. The opposite is stated in the inflict spell line. To me it very much looks like when ever undead are damaged by positive energy, that same positive energy heals living. So I simply deduct that I think that this should be the case in all applications of positive energy, where 1) If it damages undead it heals the same amount to living. If it heals in deals the same amount if damage to undead. Like lits say the Dread Necromansers Negative energy burst... or the Healing Spirite spell or the Sacred Purification feat... just to mention a few.

I don't quite understand why negative and positive energy absolutely must always conform to the "if it heals undead it damages the living and vice versa" rule.

Negative and Positive energy are, as is self-evident by their names, forms of energy. They are no different than Fire energy, or Sonic energy, or Force energy. What effect any type of energy has on any given target depends primarily on how you're making use of it - not what energy type you're using as a power source.

Also, remember that both Positive and Negative energy, at their raw forms, are equally harmful to living beings. Raw Negative energy, as experienced in the Negative Energy Plane, drains all other energy from living beings until they die. Raw Positive energy, as experienced in the Positive Energy Plane, overloads living beings until they explode into a mess of bloated cancerous flesh. (Undead are incidentally not negatively affected by any of the 2 - in fact, by the rules, raw positive energy from the P.E.P. gives them infinite health)

[Max Caysey]

I don't quite understand why negative and positive energy absolutely must always conform to the "if it heals undead it damages the living and vice versa" rule.

Negative and Positive energy are, as is self-evident by their names, forms of energy. They are no different than Fire energy, or Sonic energy, or Force energy. What effect any type of energy has on any given target depends primarily on how you're making use of it - not what energy type you're using as a power source.

Also, remember that both Positive and Negative energy, at their raw forms, are equally harmful to living beings. Raw Negative energy, as experienced in the Negative Energy Plane, drains all other energy from living beings until they die. Raw Positive energy, as experienced in the Positive Energy Plane, overloads living beings until they explode into a mess of bloated cancerous flesh. (Undead are incidentally not affected by any of the 2)

INdeed its how you use it, my idea was that when used to heal, that application of positive energy damages undead, and when positive energy in used in a manner as to damages undead that application then heals living... Im not saying that the energies cant be aplied differently, without the heal/damage clause I porpose, but simply that when applied in that certain way as to either direct damage undead or heal living, the opposite effect is always reached. The same goes for negative energy ofc.

[Pan151]

INdeed its how you use it, my idea was that when used to heal, that application of positive energy damages undead, and when positive energy in used in a manner as to damages undead that application then heals living... Im not saying that the energies cant be aplied differently, without the heal/damage clause I porpose, but simply that when applied in that certain way as to either direct damage undead or heal living, the opposite effect is always reached. The same goes for negative energy ofc.

If the specific spell says it works that way, then it works that way. If it doesn't say it works that way, then it obviously works in a different way. Cure/Cause wounds works that way. Other similar spells do not necessarily do so.

That's all there is to it, really.

[StoneCipher]

I believe the difference lies back with the debate of Conjuration vs Evocation. I see all healing spells as conjuration, so one could suppose two things.

1) The caster is channeling pure positive energy from the positive energy plane, which has the capability to both damage undead and heal the living.

2) The caster is channeling the positive energy directly into the subject, which could be something like a magical syringe, or that the healer is casting it in a way that the energy melds with the life force. As opposed to evocation which is not always as precise and focuses solely on doing damage.

Again this is, as stated before, all fluff. But if you want your RAW answer, you just have to look at the spell description.