Shapechange and buff spells

[Hiro Quester]

When you use shapechange, what about your original abilities do you keep. You keep your own mental stats. What else?

If you have buff spells cast on yourself (for instance veil of undeath, fly, improvisation) and then use shapechange, do those buff spells still apply? Or are they suppressed by the characteristics and Supernatural and extraordinary abilities of your new shape?

Do you keep any of your original feats?

[Segev]

Generally speaking, you keep your physical stats and any magical buffs or debuffs upon you. Where there is overlap, Shapechange suppresses other spells, but "overlap" is pretty narrow: Shapechange would change your shape, so if you were Polymorphed, you'd lose the physicals and other abilities of the polymorphed form and gain the ones of your new form. If you were cursed with -6 Str, you'd still have -6 Str from your new form, however. If you were polymorphed into a 1-str cat and Shapechanged into a 20-Str ogre, you'd have 20 Str in your ogre-form. If you had Bull's Strength, you'd have Str 5 as a cat and 24 as an ogre.

If you're Baleful Polymorphed into a cat, then somehow Shapechanged into a human, you'd still have the cat's mental stats, because Shapechange doesn't change those but Baleful Polymorph does.

[Hiro Quester]

So if a characteristic or ability is explicitly listed in the new form's details, I would have that instead of my own than my own. But if nothing incompatible with it is listed, then I get those characteristics and still also keep my own (especially buff spells, and feats and skills dependent on mental stats).

Feats that depend on physical stats (minimum strength or dex) might get lost, depending on the new form.

Example: My elven Bard/Sublime Chord character shapechanges into a Balor. My character has +36 in intimidate. The Balor has +33. Because I keep my own mental stats, I keep my intimidate score.

Because the Balor has spell-like abilities, though, I lose my own spell casting which seems incompatible with (is replaced by) the balor's SLAs.

I have immunity to critical hits, energy drain, etc. from having cast veil of undeath on myself earlier in the day. Once shape changed, I still keep these immunities, because nothing in the Balor's description contradicts those.

But my pumped up Armor Class would drop as a Balor. I'd lose my higher dodging bonus because I now have the Balor's slightly lower dexterity, and am no longer wearing my enchanted light armor.

If I also have resistance to cold 15, it would drop, because the Balor is listed as having resistance to cold 10. This is an overlap, so I'd get the Balor's lower resistance to cold. (If I'd had no resistance to cold, I'd still have got the 10 cold resistance.)

Does all that sound right?

[Urpriest]

Does all that sound right?

Nope!

The very first thing to take into account is that the spell does what it says it does, and no more.

So for example, it doesn't ever change your skill points because it never suggests it does that in any way. It also doesn't change your mental stats. However, it will change your size, because that's something the spell says it does, so it will change your size bonus to Intimidate.

It doesn't say it gets rid of your spellcasting, and in fact explicitly says you keep class features, so there's no reason for you to think it gets rid of your spellcasting.

None of your spells go away because it doesn't say anything about dispelling or suppressing spells. The only spells that are affected (the ones Segev was talking about) are spells that fall under the "same effect with differing results" and "one spell makes another irrelevant" rules here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects). For example, Polymorph is made irrelevant by a later casting of Shapechange. Another example is that something like Enlarge might not carry over, because "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm).

For resistances, it depends whether they come from a spell, or whether they come from extraordinary or supernatural abilities or class features. The Shapechange spell tells you what to do in the case of the latter, and spells, as already mentioned, carry over.

[Ettina]

It doesn't say it gets rid of your spellcasting, and in fact explicitly says you keep class features, so there's no reason for you to think it gets rid of your spellcasting.

But if you became something with no hands that can't talk, you'd need Natural Spell (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Natural_Spell) to actually cast most spells.

[Urpriest]

But if you became something with no hands that can't talk, you'd need Natural Spell (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Natural_Spell) to actually cast most spells.

Natural Spell explicitly only works for Wild Shape, so that won't help. There are 3.0 feats that would (Surrogate Spellcasting from Savage Species), but in general yeah you want to stick with things that have enough articulation to cast spells, like Giants and Dragons and most Outsiders.

[Hiro Quester]

OKay. That's way better than what I feared.

I just learned Shapechange, and tried it for the first time in our game last weekend. But I realized that I didn't know what of my character's abilities and characteristics would change and what would not.

Since I'm playing a bard with persistent spell and extend spell, he casts a lot of buff spells on himself. It's good not to lose those.

And spellcasting. I thought you traded your own spell casting for the spell-like abilities of the form you change into, unless it's explicitly listed as a spellcaster (e.g. a dragon).

I think my DM interprets it this way (another p[layer who is also a DM in another game does, and I think his default assumption has been the precedent).

Is there a clear rule somewhere that says you keep everything that isn't explicitly changed? And you keep spelcasting unless the shape you change into can't speak or gesture in the required ways.

There are few rules to track down (shapechange works like polymorph except... which works like alter self except....).

I haven't found the rule that says this very clearly. Does anyone know where I should point my DM to for clarifying this interpretation?

[Urpriest]

OKay. That's way better than what I feared.

I just learned Shapechange, and tried it for the first time in our game last weekend. But I realized that I didn't know what of my character's abilities and characteristics would change and what would not.

I take it you haven't used Polymorph before either, or other shape-changing spells or abilities? If so, I would strongly suggest you read my Monster Handbook, link in sig. There's a lot of basic stuff about how monster statblocks work that many players don't understand because they've only had to understand the PC rules, and they can really bite you in the ass when you need to use a spell that references them.



Since I'm playing a bard with persistent spell and extend spell, he casts a lot of buff spells on himself. It's good not to lose those.

And spellcasting. I thought you traded your own spell casting for the spell-like abilities of the form you change into, unless it's explicitly listed as a spellcaster (e.g. a dragon).

I think my DM interprets it this way (another p[layer who is also a DM in another game does, and I think his default assumption has been the precedent).

Highly unlikely. It's like that in 5e, but your group probably didn't start the game with 5e.



Is there a clear rule somewhere that says you keep everything that isn't explicitly changed? And you keep spelcasting unless the shape you change into can't speak or gesture in the required ways.


There are few rules to track down (shapechange works like polymorph except... which works like alter self except....).

I haven't found the rule that says this very clearly. Does anyone know where I should point my DM to for clarifying this interpretation?


Alter Self
Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.

The two bolded parts above are quite explicit, and almost certainly something your DM is aware of.

[Segev]

From Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm):

This spell functions like polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm)...


This spell functions like alter self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm)...


You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

[Hiro Quester]

Thanks. The point about Alter Self is what I needed. I'lll point our DM to that.

Yes, I have not used any polymorph spells (apart from baleful polymorph) until now. Shape change was just too tempting and useful for this last level of our campaign.

Many thanks , everyone!

[Hiro Quester]

Ah. here's the problematic rule:


You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities.

So though alter self says:

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.
You do lose class-based supernatural abilities. But you would keep extraordinary abilities and qualities.

So some aspects of your class abilities are lost. A shapechanged bard would no longer have the inspire courage ability, because ithough it's class based, its a supernatural ability. But you'd keep fascinate, because it's a spell-like ability.

Are spellcasting abilities "supernatural abilities"? Ii hope not, but 'm not sure how to determine that.

[tyckspoon]

Are spellcasting abilities "supernatural abilities"? Ii hope not, but 'm not sure how to determine that.

That's.. actually kind of a huge can of worms, but the most probable answer is no. Spellcasting is most likely either (Ex)traordinary, which is what most not-otherwise-labeled class abilities are/should be, or Natural, which is a poorly-defined and almost entirely unlabeled category of abilities. The examples of them are things that are inherent parts of a creatures form, tho (like birds being able to fly), so class-based abilities are a pretty poor fit... the main argument for it is there's a line that states that anything that is not Ex, Su, or Sp is Natural. And there's an awful lot of abilities they never bothered to apply one of those labels to, defaulting them to Natural.

[Karnith]

Are spellcasting abilities "supernatural abilities"? Ii hope not, but 'm not sure how to determine that.
Unless you end up with a spellcasting ability that is explicitly tagged as Supernatural (and to my knowledge there are no such abilities in official material), probably not. There is a good deal of debate about exactly what type of ability spellcasting is, because it is never explicitly given an ability type, but the two main contenders are that spellcasting is either a natural ability or an extraordinary ability. If you got spellcasting from a class, you'd be set to keep your spellcasting while under a Shapechange either way.

As always, ask your DM before you try it in a game.

[Urpriest]

Yeah, there's no argument for spellcasting being a supernatural ability.

Note that darkvision is, for what that's worth.

[bekeleven]

Unless you end up with a spellcasting ability that is explicitly tagged as Supernatural (and to my knowledge there are no such abilities in official material), probably not. There is a good deal of debate about exactly what type of ability spellcasting is, because it is never explicitly given an ability type, but the two main contenders are that spellcasting is either a natural ability or an extraordinary ability. If you got spellcasting from a class, you'd be set either way.

As always, ask your DM before you try it in a game.

Note that there was one case where spell-like abilities were labeled supernatural, but the monster was then reprinted with the (Sp) tag.

But yes, I (and JaronK) think spells are (Ex), Psyren (and Fax) think they're Na.

In the end, anyone trying to use abilities that grant either Ex or Na to gain spellcasting should be ejected from your table. Although maybe not your table specifically, because that's less cheesy than persistent shapechange.

[Hiro Quester]

here is a good deal of debate about exactly what type of ability spellcasting is, because it is never explicitly given an ability type, but the two main contenders are that spellcasting is either a natural ability or an extraordinary ability. If you got spellcasting from a class, you'd be set to keep your spellcasting while under a Shapechange either way.

As always, ask your DM before you try it in a game.

Thanks. And that's exactly what I'm doing: arguing that you don't gain the spell-like abilities of the new form, but you keep your own spell casting if the new form has the requisite body parts.

Thanks, again everyone.

[Urpriest]

Thanks. And that's exactly what I'm doing: arguing that you don't gain the spell-like abilities of the new form, but you keep your own spell casting if the new form has the requisite body parts.

Thanks, again everyone.

It's important to point out that spellcasting is almost certainly not a spell-like ability, by the way. Spell-like ability doesn't just mean "like a spell", it has a very specific meaning that deviates pretty dramatically from how spellcasting works.

[Hiro Quester]

Yes, of course.

By the way, Urpriest, thanks for mentioning the monstrous monster handbook. It is indeed very handy. I learned many useful things there.